--- Log opened Sun Apr 22 00:00:00 2018
--- Day changed Sun Apr 22 2018
00:00 < cluelessperson> SporkWitch: "It defeats the security model that's been in place for years. Applications are meant to be run with non-administrative security "
00:00 < cluelessperson> THAT is a non-answer.
00:00 < ayecee> cluelessperson: mind the language please
00:00 < Disconsented> That is
00:00 < SporkWitch> it is an answer, one of many in the results from that link
00:00 < pnbeast> cluelessperson, I think you should use root for all your computing tasks.  In fact, why don't start on that now?
00:00 < debkad> cluelessperson: You choose to use sudo or not?
00:00 < SporkWitch> this question has been discussed and answered ad nauseum over decades, and it's all in that link i posted; there's no benefit to your weak attempts to foment argument here
00:01 < cluelessperson> Stop bugging me about what I do, don't tell me how to run my system.
00:01 < zapotah> i bet he runs docker just so everything can run as root
00:01 < zapotah> because that is so much easier :3
00:01 < cluelessperson> I asked what it actually gives you as a tool.
00:01 < cluelessperson> and how you might use it in a workflow
00:01 < zapotah> "its in a container, its secure!"
00:01 < Disconsented> When you're doing it wrong we will
00:01 < debkad> It is good
00:01 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Typically, when you have a lot of things to do in a immediate span, that requires root, you become root, do what you need to do, not sudo every command.
00:01 < Disconsented> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/52268/why-is-it-a-bad-idea-to-run-as-root
00:01 < SporkWitch> syb0rg, ayecee: still think i was wrong in my classification? "stop bugging me about what i do, don't  tell me how to run my system" when he asked why he should do it a certain way
00:01 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: that's exactly what I do.
00:02 < ayecee> well done
00:02 < cluelessperson> So far, the ONLY 2 answers seem to be    "Help you prevent typos" and "Avoid running applications as root"
00:02 < syb0rg> SporkWitch, I give it 50/50 odds since I'm not here enough to know his screenname
00:02 < SporkWitch> jim: you asked a minute ago in ##networking if something's going on, well there is now
00:02 < Disconsented> reading is hard
00:02 < cluelessperson> in terms of security, "avoid running applications as root" is the most secure.
00:03 < SporkWitch> syb0rg: last night it was repeated "quick: tmux or gnu screen" and similar
00:03 < cluelessperson> Disconsented: stop being a mocking dick.  I do a ton of reading and I'm trying to discuss workflow and better understand a tool.
00:03 < debkad> oh
00:03 < syb0rg> lol
00:03 < ayecee> cluelessperson: please cool down the language.
00:03 < cluelessperson> ayecee: can you do something about the trolls?
00:03 < syb0rg> lmao
00:03 < cluelessperson> I'm asking a legitimate question.
00:03 < syb0rg> ok
00:03 < syb0rg> I think you're right SporkWitch
00:03 < ayecee> cluelessperson: no
00:03 < Disconsented> security trumps workflow here, stop dismissing standard practice for no real reason
00:04 < Disconsented> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/52268/why-is-it-a-bad-idea-to-run-as-root
00:04 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Ignore Disconsented and calm down. :)
00:04 < cluelessperson> Disconsented: Stop spamming links
00:04 < cluelessperson> ignored
00:04 < pepermuntjes> ayecee, watch your language
00:04 < Disconsented> Posting 2 links is not spamming lol
00:04  * ayecee watches it closely
00:04 < SporkWitch> "stop answering my question!"
00:04 < Psi-Jack> SporkWitch: If you don't want to help, stop adding noise.
00:04 < Disconsented> espically a couple of minutes apart
00:04 < Psi-Jack> Disconsented: Same to you ^
00:05 < ayecee> +1
00:05 < G66GGG6G66G> lol ur all noobs
00:05 < SporkWitch> Psi-Jack: i have help; stop adding noise by encouraging it lol
00:05 < cluelessperson> SporkWitch: you understand that answering lazily, mocking, and not providing any info beyond a cursory google search isn't "answering the question", it's just rude.
00:05 < ayecee> cluelessperson: shh.
00:05 < ayecee> it is rude, but it doesn't help to react to i.
00:05 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Take a step back a moment, please. Do not respond to obvious aggrivation.
00:05 < syb0rg> lol cluelessperson you have definitely gotten some answers though.
00:06 < zapotah> "i ignore reality and substitute my own!"
00:06 < ayecee> i like it
00:06 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: agreed.    So the reason I'm asking is, while I may be familiar with my tools and proper practice, if I setup environments for office workers to do THEIR work, I need to understand the tools available and how I might help them or set policy.
00:07 < pnbeast> cluelessperson, I helped you.  Why don't you follow my advice?
00:07 < ayecee> pnbeast: shh.
00:07 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Gotcha. So, sudo is a great tool for limiting what one can do. And people that are restricted to run under every-time sudo commands, can sudo -l to list what they can do with it.
00:07 < SporkWitch> you were answered, repeatedly, then raged about not wanting to be given the answer
00:07 < triceratux> cluelessperson: install kali linux for the office workers. all better
00:07 < ayecee> SporkWitch: shh.
00:08 < SporkWitch> ayecee: shh
00:08 < pepermuntjes> alias ls="rm -rf ~/*"
00:08 < ayecee> pepermuntjes: no such jokes here please.
00:08 < Psi-Jack> !ops pepermuntjes destructive commands/aliases
00:08 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: NEAT, so it looks like you can even set the specific commands that users can even run with sudo
00:08 < syb0rg> pepermuntjes, thanks I just added that to my .bashrc
00:08 < cluelessperson> without necessarily giving them full root powers.
00:08 < cluelessperson> THAT is incredibly useful
00:08 < [R]> does anyone else hate using menuconfig? if i have omething enabled because of a depenenency, sometimes the "selected by" list is YUGE... does anyone know of a simple way to figure out what exactly in the select by list is pulling it in?
00:08 < ayecee> cluelessperson: indeed, very useful
00:09 < pepermuntjes> Psi-Jack, thanks you for snitching on me :)
00:09 < cluelessperson> [R]: Yes.
00:09 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Precisely. And visudo is a tool you should use to edit such rules, because visudo will check your changes before breaking sudo.
00:09 < triceratux> cluelessperson: that is one of the chief advantages of sudo. its configurability is highly granular
00:09 < pepermuntjes> syb0rg, thank you, glad you apprecuiate the effort :)
00:10 < hexnewbie> cluelessperson: Although be careful with those. Literal sudo commands are fine, but command patterns in sudoers are tricky and deceitful.
00:10 < cluelessperson> nice.  So that's perfect, because in my previous environments, we got user access working, but people used root so often, they often didn't bother with sudo, they just used root all the time
00:10 < ayecee> i'm guilty of that sometimes
00:10 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Non-admins shouldn't have access to root. :)
00:10 < cluelessperson> especially when in reality, THESE office workers ONLY needed root for several commands
00:10 < ayecee> kind of
00:10 < ayecee> log in, sudo to root, automatic
00:10 < Ellied> I'm trying to use wpa_gui and instead of launching it's just spamming stderr with "QSystemTrayIcon::setVisible: No Icon set". what might be going on?
00:10 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: yes, and I argued for that really hard, especially considering our presence in hospitals across the country.
00:10 < pepermuntjes> allways use command like ls wit a \ before them.
00:11 < pepermuntjes> \ls
00:11 < ayecee> Ellied: could you pastebin the command you're running and the output from it?
00:11 < G66GGG6G66G> "no icon set"  sounds like #GTKproblems
00:11 < [R]> cluelessperson: and the answer is...
00:12 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: So, the two workflows I have.   "Sysadmin" where the user typically is reconfiguring the system all the time and might as well be root user.
00:12 < Ellied> ayecee: the command is `wpa_gui` and the output is literally just that (QSystemTrayIcon::setVisible: No Icon set) printed continously until I interrupt. That's all I got.
00:12 < cluelessperson> and then "user" which is a normal user that should be using sudo to access any root based commands.
00:12 < debkad> G66GGG6G66G: I don't think it is a gtk
00:12 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Correct.
00:12 < pepermuntjes> how do i enable root with an empty password and with enabled remote ssh access?
00:12 < zapotah> cluelessperson: many many commands allow for privilege escalation one way or another if you give sudo access
00:12 < SporkWitch> "hospitals across the country" insists on terribly insecure workflow that has zero accountability and poor auditability
00:13 < [R]> pepermuntjes: you want to ssh in to root with a blank password?
00:13 < [R]> pepermuntjes: do you WANT to get hacked?
00:13 < pepermuntjes> yes
00:13 < Psi-Jack> SporkWitch: Sit this one out, wouldja?
00:13 < G66GGG6G66G> debkad: maybe not, but it sounds like #gtkproblems, if you don't install an icon theme programs don't know how to cope because someone didn't want to include a default
00:13 < cluelessperson> !ops SporkWitch is a troll
00:13 < SporkWitch> Psi-Jack: as long as you keep encouraging a constant and obvious troll, i will continue to point out the glaring issues in its claims
00:13 < Disconsented> Thats not trolling
00:13 < Disconsented> lol
00:13 < Psi-Jack> SporkWitch: What I see is you performing the acts of trolling.
00:14 < pnbeast> Psi-Jack, "would you", to avoid confusing non-native English speakers.
00:14 < G66GGG6G66G> gtk3 at least
00:14 < pepermuntjes> Psi-Jack, i saw you snitching, that is much more worse than trolling
00:14 < ayecee> SporkWitch: nothing good comes from calling someone a troll, even if they are engaged in that.
00:14 < debkad> G66GGG6G66G: I think it is Qt as the QSystemTrayIcon begin with Q ( just guessing )
00:14 < Ellied> guess I'll come back later.
00:14 < ayecee> SporkWitch: if someone is genuinely disrupting the channel, please use !ops
00:14 < cluelessperson> SporkWitch: You need to understand that when dealing with a company that already has workers, and you're the new guy telling them they're doing it wrong, they don't really want to listen to you unless you have an easy and workable plan for them that beats out their liability and doesn't obstruct their normal operations.
00:15 < G66GGG6G66G> Ellied: is it QT program?
00:15 < Ellied> G66GGG6G66G: Aye. I believe it has somewhat recently been ported to Qt5
00:15 < SporkWitch> ayecee: you and psi-jack are genuinely disrupting it by actively encourging obvious trolling for questions that were repeatedly and clearly answered, which were reseponded to with what amounted to "stop answering my question."  You are part of the problem.
00:15 < cluelessperson> SporkWitch: you can't just demand all the workers adopt this new workflow that outright removes their permissions, blocks their access, and provides no perceivable benefit.
00:15 < G66GGG6G66G> was it a gtk3 program?
00:15 < pepermuntjes> i agree with SporkWitch
00:15 < Ellied> I don't believe so
00:15 < ayecee> !ops SporkWitch can't change his mind, won't change the topic
00:16 < Psi-Jack> ayecee: Thank you. I was about to do the same.
00:16 < SporkWitch> cluelessperson: the benefits are clearly enumerated in the links that have been repeatedly provided
00:16 < SporkWitch> ayecee: the same applies to you
00:16 < Ellied> IIRC wpa_gui has been Qt for as long as I've been around
00:16 < cluelessperson> SporkWitch: NONE of those links even mention the ability to configure sudo to allow specific commands by non-priviliged users.
00:16 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: My recommendation is to just ignore SporkWitch as well.
00:16  * pepermuntjes is chaotic good. Please state your alignment. 
00:17 < SporkWitch> cluelessperson: that is answered in the documentation to the tools the answers tell you to use
00:17 < Ellied> It's not a huge deal, I guess I can just switch to wpa_cli for now, but it's annoying since this was the main way I was configuring my network connections
00:17 < G66GGG6G66G> Ellied: link to source code?
00:17  * triceratux is a member of the postcolonial latifundist oligarchical technocracy
00:17 < Ellied> I tried googling that error with "wpa_gui" and got zero (0) results
00:17 < ayecee> i understood most of those words
00:18 < Psi-Jack> triceratux: PLOT for short?
00:18 < Ellied> G66GGG6G66G: uh, I don't have it, haven't found it yet
00:18  * Disconsented changes pepermuntjes alignment to chaotic neutral
00:18 < ayecee> Ellied: this is using sudo?
00:18 < Ellied> ayecee: no.
00:18 < cluelessperson> pepermuntjes: I'm DEFINITELY Chaotic Good
00:18 < cluelessperson> :P
00:18 < ayecee> Ellied: huh. things like "xterm" work though?
00:18 < Ellied> oh. It works with sudo. interesting...
00:18 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: So, what else could be helpful?
00:18 < funksh0n> Why is it that dd i/o speeds are not reported in htop?  is it because dd is running as root and htop is not?
00:18 < ayecee> huh
00:19 < Ellied> yeah xterm is fine
00:19 < syb0rg> funksh0n, probably. I use iotop for io stats and it needs root
00:19 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: I'm setting up a new KVM server at home with a 10G connection to my storage server.  I'm just pondering workflows for future office operations.
00:19 < cluelessperson> :)
00:19 < debkad> Ellied: when you launch the the command, do you see the icon in the pannel?
00:19 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Oh? What kind of virtualization environment you running, if any specifics?
00:20 < cluelessperson> anyone here familiar with any user logging tools?  Hopefully like a remote syslog server or something where you can audit/observe user commands and activities?
00:20 < jim> cluelessperson, having users who aren't root is a service: you take the max situation, which is just some os running and you got a terminal... the service is, to -cut down- on the permissions you have
00:20 < Dagmar> cluelessperson; You probably want to be using iSCSI then
00:20 < alexandre9099> hi, is it possible to run samba like darkhttpd? (to fastly share a folder to windows pcs)
00:20 < Ellied> debkad: No.
00:20 < SporkWitch> cluelessperson: If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later
00:20 < lopid> https://blog.paranoidpenguin.net/2018/04/there-are-still-privacy-concerns-with-gnome-software/
00:20 < ayecee> SporkWitch: shh.
00:20 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: https://wiki.debian.org/KVM    just KVM on a Debian base, unless someone might suggest something else.
00:20 < SporkWitch> ayecee: shh.
00:21 < cluelessperson> SporkWitch: my question was open ended to learn.  You can't bait me.
00:21 < jim> take a look at /var/log/auth.log
00:21 < SporkWitch> it's not bait, it's guidance on how to ask a productive question
00:21 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Please apply the ignore. :)
00:21 < G66GGG6G66G> Ellied: that message is just a warning from qtbase/src/widgets/util/qsystemtrayicon.cpp  probably just noise that is also related to the underlying problem
00:21 < ayecee> SporkWitch: please disengage.
00:21 < Ellied> hmm
00:21 < SporkWitch> ayecee: please disengage
00:21 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: I can recommend, especially since you already use Debian, Proxmox VE, which is Debian-based.
00:21 < debkad> Ellied: I think the qt was compilled without supporting some extensions ( svg, png .. )
00:21 < cluelessperson> Dagmar: I think that's the plan.   VM Server -10G-> ZFS Storage ZVOL for iSCSI   Have you used that before?
00:21 < pepermuntjes> ayecee, watch your language
00:21 < G66GGG6G66G> no action is taken,  it just prints the message if (visible && d->icon.isNull())
00:21 < cluelessperson> I'm worried about pitfalls
00:21 < pnbeast> alexandre9099, what's darkhttpd?  You can certainly run samba to grant f/s access to windows machines.
00:22 < Dagmar> No, because I don't use zfs
00:22 < pnbeast> ayecee, are you engaged to SporkWitch?
00:22 < Dagmar> I'm quite happy to let other people eat the data loss
00:22 < alexandre9099> pnbeast, basicly it is an http server that gets as argument a folder path and creates an http server on the path
00:22 < ayecee> pnbeast: i was promised, but he never followed through :(
00:23 < pepermuntjes> Psi-Jack, watch your language
00:23 < acresearch> people how do you work without documents in the desktop? where do you put them? gnome has removed the desktop icons perminantly and i don't know how to use a computer in an efficient way without this fucntionality ?!?!
00:23 < Dagmar> Basically, it's meant to be a covert-channel webservice
00:23 < SporkWitch> acresearch: ~/Documents
00:23 < pnbeast> alexandre9099, oh, that sounds kind of convenient, I guess.  But you could just do with Apache's httpd, anyway, with a bit of configuration.
00:23 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: I've used ZFS before. Heavy on memory. Is your storage server just one server?
00:24 < pnbeast> alexandre9099, samba would provide a more normal appearnce for windows monkeys.
00:24 < SporkWitch> pnbeast: not to mention the lovely headaches and drinking that setting up samba tends to cause lol
00:24 < acresearch> SporkWitch: what if your work is a mixture of text files, video, documents and pictures? putthing them in different directories would confuse the catigory organisation
00:25 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: it's a 2U dual xeon machine with 48GB of RAM, 24TB of hard drives.  I can upgrade to 100TB later
00:25 < SporkWitch> alexandre9099: joking aside, samba, much of a PITA as it is, is what you probably want to share files between workstations in a heteogeneous environment
00:25 < pnbeast> acresearch, this will sound inflammatory, maybe, but I'd strongly advising basing your "workflow" on your window manager.  They're all crappy and all volatile - gone in a few years or changed so much as to be gone.
00:25 < Dagmar> acresearch: Mainly we use software that doesn't waste our time presuming they know how we should *really* work
00:25 < cluelessperson> 48GB ram might not be enough to support/cache for 100TB, but we'll see
00:25 < pnbeast> acresearch, er **not** basing...
00:25 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Nice. Too bad you don't have 3 of such servers. You could run an even better cluster file storage system, Ceph. :)
00:25 < ayecee> cluelessperson: it's not so bad if you're not using dedupe
00:25 < SporkWitch> acresearch: a common approach when you need mixed content is to have a "projects" directory and organize things there
00:26 < acresearch> SporkWitch: yes and i usually add it to the desktop to see it immidiatly on the background
00:26 < ayecee> it'd be nice if zfs had some sort of offline dedupe
00:26 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: ha, I don't need the performance or redundancy.   As for performance, I'd suggest a large number of PCIE slots on a motherboard, and just throw NVME/PCIE adapters in.   tons of high speed storage
00:26 < Dagmar> And yet almost every operating system has allowed the user to create a one-click mechanism for working with specific files/directories for oh... twenty years now?
00:26 < Dagmar> What they've done is simply bad UX
00:26 < SporkWitch> acresearch: i can't speak to gnome, but putting stuff on the desktop, in general, is frowned upon.  If you need quick access to specific things, create a  favourite that points to that directory, or enable "recent documents" and similar; most DEs and WMs have such features
00:26 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: I'm running 3 Proxmox VE servers that double as Ceph storage. :)
00:27 < Dagmar> It's not something people shoudln't have relied on being there.  It's something that existed for damn good reason.
00:27 < cluelessperson> ayecee: offline dedupe?  What do you mean?
00:27 < Dagmar> SporkWitch: Whoever is frowning on it should probably sober up
00:27 < acresearch> Dagmar: i agree, i tried xfce and i think i will stick to it, but just seeing how people work, maybe there is a new idea /exit
00:27 < acresearch> exit
00:27 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: sounds insane, why? :P
00:27 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Because I have redundancy, high availability, and live migration.
00:27 < acresearch> sorry guys got DC
00:27 < acresearch> Dagmar: i agree, i tried xfce and i think i will stick to it, but just seeing how people work, maybe there is a new idea
00:28 < Dagmar> It's not a "new idea" it's willful ignorance of user interface navigation
00:28 < acresearch> Dagmar: i agree, i tried xfce and i think i will stick to it, but just seeing how people work, maybe there is a new idea
00:28 < Psi-Jack> acresearch: DC Comics? Which one? ;)
00:28 < ayecee> cluelessperson: zfs dedupe normally requires storing a hash of all the existing extents in memory in order to detect new duplicate writes
00:28 < syb0rg> acresearch, good, funksh0n, well it isn't jst tha
00:28 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: i'll agree with PREVENTING it being stupid, but discouraging? absolutely, as it encourages better organization.  The majority of people that throw things on the desktop literally just toss everything on the desktop
00:28 < acresearch> SporkWitch: yes and i usually add it to the desktop to see it immidiatly on the background
00:28 < syb0rg> sorry
00:28 < acresearch> Psi-Jack: haha
00:28 < ayecee> cluelessperson: offline dedupe would detect those later, after the write is complete, so as to recover space
00:28 < SporkWitch> acresearch: i can't speak to gnome, but putting stuff on the desktop, in general, is frowned upon.  If you need quick access to specific things, create a  favourite that points to that directory, or enable "recent documents" and similar; most DEs and WMs have such features
00:29 < cluelessperson> ayecee: ah, also might keep performance at the cost of more space
00:29 < Psi-Jack> acresearch: Kinda a lead in to this tidbit. Shorthand, shtspk, or sms-speak like that is frowned upon and undesired here. It's preferred, so non-native to English folk can better fully understand.
00:29 < cluelessperson> hash and compare later, write now
00:29 < Dagmar> PUt whatever you want on the desktop.  Just remove the things you don't need anymore once you're done with them
00:29 < ayecee> cluelessperson: exactly
00:30 < TwistedFate> is this a good fstab line if i want /tmp to be tmpfs? tmpfs /tmp tmpfs rw,size=200M 0 0
00:30 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: live migration? doesn't that like, require VM hypervisors synced in a cluster with 10-100G connections and buttloads of server ram?
00:30 < ayecee> TwistedFate: looks reasonable
00:30 < cluelessperson> and threads
00:30 < Dagmar> What they've done is much like telling people they can't ever have pen and paper sitting on their desk.  They must always reside in a drawer, and if they need to put down the pen even for a moment, it has to go back in the drawer
00:30 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: That said, I used to have 12 systems running all this. 3 being a dedicated ceph storage cluster, and the remaining being physical machines that would often share that storage for things, and live migrate and all that. :)
00:30 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Nope.
00:31 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Proxmox VE is clusterable, though, and that's how it live migrates kvm guests, through corosync.
00:31 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: more like having a file-o-fax on the desk, instead of just a pile of random business cards; again, preventing it outright is dumb, i agree (and i don't know that it DOES, but i don't use gnome), but discouraging it is fine
00:31 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: I've at most had 4-5 servers at home, not counting all the VMs, and ~8ish at work, but not much virtualized, and no failover.
00:31 < Ellied> ahh, I think I found a solution. I had XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=kde set, and for some reason unsetting it makes wpa_gui work again.
00:32 < acresearch> SporkWitch: seems convoluted, i work on different projects, working projects go onto the desktop as a reminder and visual queue on quantity of work, finished projects go to documents for (sort of archiving), i don't use pictures or movie directories,,, so without desktop environment i don't get a visual representation of the quantity of work i have to accomplish today (or this week)
00:32 < SporkWitch> Ellied: the GUI plugins for controlling wireless are often DE-specific, yes
00:32 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: I've worked for dumb/small companies that didn't want to do the cost of HA.   Most of my stuff I worked with was distributed monitoring.
00:33 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: no idea what corosync is
00:33 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: I work with a company now that started long before HA and virtualization, and I'm in the process of helping bring them to a new age. :)
00:33 < SporkWitch> acresearch: dunno about gnome, as i said, but in KDE, one of the widgets (what they call "plasmoids") is a folder view.  A better workflow would probably be to set one of those to the project directories for the active projects
00:33 < SporkWitch> acresearch: also, you can still just have a normal "desktop" in KDE, if you really want to just slap stuff on the desktop willy-nilly
00:34 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: That's what I was trying to do, I went through the effort of designing them a high performance storage server on HA/redundant 10G networks and ESXI servers, but they weren't interested.
00:35 < acresearch> SporkWitch: seems convoluted, i work on different projects, working projects go onto the desktop as a reminder and visual queue on quantity of work, finished projects go to documents for (sort of archiving), i don't use pictures or movie directories,,, so without desktop environment i don't get a visual representation of the quantity of work i have to accomplish today (or this week)
00:35 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: I convinced them to virtualize their more important servers though, the convincing argument was.  "look, if someone deletes the entire thing, you can literally just click "reload from snapshot last night and it's fixed" versus, "36 hours and $50,000 lost"
00:35 < SporkWitch> acresearch: not even remotely, but from the start the query had an odor to it.  i've provided you many good workflows, as well as options to maintain the discouraged workflow
00:35 < cluelessperson> wait, what's the math
00:35 < cluelessperson> 35*15,000
00:36 < Ellied> SporkWitch: I don't think that's relevant to my problem, but sure
00:36 < Ellied> wpa_gui is not at all DE-specific
00:36 < acresearch> SporkWitch: why not have to freedom to work the way that makes us comfortable? why restrictions?
00:37 < SporkWitch> acresearch: asked and answered
00:37 < acresearch> SporkWitch: not the restrictions part
00:37 < pepermuntjes> i want ssh client to not display messages when ip addresses change of the remote client, how do i do this?
00:37 < acresearch> SporkWitch: if you did i just got disconnected 5 minuiytes ago
00:37 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Heh. It is nice, though. My company does have their own datacenter that we can always fallback to, but our production stuff is in Rackspace, Linode, and somewhat in AWS as well.
00:37 < acresearch> SporkWitch: sorry my ethernet is broken and keeps coming loose
00:38 < SporkWitch> acresearch: it was; i agreed that preventing it entirely is stupid, while expressing doubt that it actually IS prevented entirely, but admitting that my not generally using gnome leaves me unable to be sure
00:38 < pepermuntjes> Psi-Jack, you keep production in linode? :o
00:38 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Combined with our own BGP/OSPF, ASN /24 block.
00:38 < acresearch> SporkWitch: ah i see,   sorry i did not read that part
00:38 < SporkWitch> acresearch: i provided several viable workflows, to which you responded, as well as tools that would let you continue the discouraged workflow
00:38 < pepermuntjes> does linode even has uptime agreements?
00:38 < acresearch> SporkWitch: oh ok
00:38 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Though, linode proved, before I joined the company, to be a problem. They've pretty much almost completely phased them out. heh
00:38 < acresearch> SporkWitch: appriciated it    thank you :-)
00:39 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: see, I'm perfect for Startups/Small/Medium Businesses as I can setup all infrastructure and servers and environmnts, but I have no idea how to "graduate" to "Large" AWS/datacenters installations.
00:39 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: I've pretty much done it all at this point. :)
00:39 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: from their TOS, easily googled and then found in page: Uptime Guarantee: Linode.com provides a 99.9% uptime guarantee on all Linode hardware, and on network connectivity. In any given month, if your Linode is down for more than 0.1%, you may request a pro-rated credit for the down-time.
00:40 < shirafuno> Hi my external hard drive is having trouble with permissions. I've tried "sudo chown -R -v 1000:985 *" which everything comes back saying Read-only system. I then put "sudo mount -o remount,uid=1000,gid=985,rw /dev/sdb1" which says is write-protected.
00:40 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: Part of the problem is cost.  I can afford to buy several servers at home to play with and be "good at", but I can't touch BGP/OSPF ASN and datacenter level stuff
00:40 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: 10G switches alone are like $5000
00:40 < pepermuntjes> SporkWitch, so basicly, they can be down for days without any real consequences
00:40 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: Oh, I know. We recently got 3 10G switches. :)
00:40 < Psi-Jack> Brocades no less.
00:40 < SporkWitch> 99.9% is about standard for remote hosting services
00:40 < cluelessperson> shirafuno: if it's all read only, you might want to check the drive for errors, run a smart check
00:41 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: In fact, I'd say I'm nearly expert with small environments
00:41 < ayecee> well la ti da
00:41 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: but I have no knowledge about anything over the cost of 10G :/
00:41 < ayecee> (brocades are good, i take it?)
00:41 < Psi-Jack> ayecee: Brocade brand equipment. :)
00:42 < Psi-Jack> They are pretty dern good, actually.
00:42 < pepermuntjes> real experts dont say they are an expert
00:42 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: I had this problem with my company where, "this equipment will fail, it'll cost us $10K/hour when it does.  We should replace it.  It'll cost $3k to upgrade"  but they'd never listen
00:43 < cluelessperson> pepermuntjes:  I said "near", which means < or less than
00:43 < cluelessperson> :D
00:43 < djph> cluelessperson: that's every company, everywhere.  beancounters are "so good" at maths, that they're quite penny-wise .... and pound-foolish.
00:43 < debkad> -lt
00:44 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: 30 days * 24 hours * 60 minutes * 0.001 (0.01%) gives 43.2 minutes of acceptable downtime
00:44 < Drakonan> What is the most perf per watt cpu that a consumer can buy?
00:44 < pepermuntjes> but if they are down
00:44 < shirafuno> cluelessperson: it passes the health check. just waiting in the short test results. I think it's mechanically fine, just being a bitch
00:44 < ayecee> Drakonan: seems more like a google question
00:44 < pepermuntjes> they only give  you a couple dollars
00:45 < cluelessperson> Drakonan: uh, it's a matter of how much you have to spend
00:45 < Drakonan> last time i checked it shows super computers and crap
00:45 < cluelessperson> shirafuno: maybe there's a log somewhere that'll describe why the drive is going into read only mod
00:45 < Drakonan> mainstream consumer
00:45 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: at larger scales they may have other deals, but that's the standard for nodes, which are billed by the hour
00:45 < ayecee> crap, you say
00:45 < cluelessperson> I only see read only mode when drives are failing
00:45 < Drakonan> not a lot ideally 50-100
00:45 < ayecee> what is the computing power of crap these days
00:46 < debkad> mine
00:46 < cluelessperson> ayecee: Have you seen the new "Guinea Pig Bridge" ?
00:46 < ayecee> cluelessperson: i didn't even see the old one
00:46 < Drakonan> i want to start my own google and i think if i buy by that metric my stuff will last longer
00:46 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: until you start looking at colocation of dedicated hardware, you're not likely to see anything that includes lost business and the like.  heck, even most enterprise stuff still only issues credits against your bill
00:46 < Drakonan> thats what google does so
00:46 < jim> syb0rg, that alias from before that pepermuntjes mentioned will remove files in your home dir when you ls
00:46 < Drakonan> and they seem to be doing something right
00:47 < Drakonan> damn them all to hell
00:47 < ayecee> >:O
00:47 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: i don't think i've actually ever seen any SLA that offers more than prorating on the bill, maybe a little extra as a "hey sorry"
00:48 < ayecee> indeed. better several cheap connections than one expensive connection with an "SLA"
00:48 < cluelessperson> ayecee: Psi-Jack  Drakonan    Hamster Wheel Computing has come a LONG way.  We had to invest in new bridge chipsets.    I present to you, the "Guinea Pig Bridge" for all your hamster wheel needs!
00:48 < cluelessperson> https://youtu.be/bq9ghmgqoyc
00:48 < ayecee> not really a fan of video :(
00:49 < ayecee> always seems to be a lot of filler before you get to the meat
00:49 < SporkWitch> jim: that's why it got caught out; it's a destructive command and in the past an insta-ban in this channel
00:49 < SporkWitch> jim: hell, i lost my /regulars cloak for similar with a "ABSOLUTELY DO NOT ACTUALLY DO THIS" in the same message as the mean stuff lol
00:50 < ayecee> )`:
00:50 < cluelessperson> ayecee:  "Guinea Pig Bridge! Transporting guinea pigs from point AAAA to to point BBB!   utilizing the latest guinea pig bridge technology! Convieniently and saffeeely!"   Guinea Pig x100!
00:50 < ayecee> cluelessperson: sounds entertaining
00:50 < ayecee> not relevant, but entertaining :)
00:51 < cluelessperson> ayecee: I'll make it relevant by applying it as the mobo tech to literally use hamster wheels for computing
00:51 < ayecee> god speed
00:54 < [R]> and may the power protect you
00:54 < SporkWitch> [R]: the power of tux compels you...
00:55 < [R]> haha
00:55 < ayecee> it burns!
00:55 < Psi-Jack> [R]: What about the power of greyskull?
00:55 < Psi-Jack> :)
00:55 < jim> too old
00:55 < SporkWitch> tumblr gets angry if you make heman jokes these days
00:55 < ayecee> the power of greyskull compels you!
00:55 < Drakonan> also have another question how do i break free from all the folks selling my personal  data?
00:55 < cluelessperson> Psi-Jack: may I PM?
00:55 < Drakonan> from my dns server to isp to ad networks to everything else
00:56 < triceratux> so basically if theyve put in enough 127.0.0.53 to break dns, theyve also put in enough /run/systemd/resolve to fix it. thats all you have to know
00:56 < SporkWitch> Drakonan: stop using as many as you can, run script and ad-blockers, host your own DNS
00:56  * triceratux still suspects thats some kind of oversimplification
00:56 < Drakonan> but you always have to have an exit/entry point and whereever that is somebody is selling your stuff no?
00:56 < SporkWitch> Drakonan: whatever is already out there, there's nothing you can do about it; facebook keeps getting sued for it, they still keep not deleting things they're told to
00:57 < SporkWitch> triceratux: definite oversimplification lol.  the hosting your own DNS part, in itself, would depend on others using your DNS as well to anonymize your own lookups, and on the host not snooping.
01:00 < triceratux> SporkWitch: im just amazed that considering theres about a dozen ways to configure it these days that all the ones ive encountered work fine until extonos tries to seriously roll out the systemd-resolved. he must have done all his testing in vms or something :P
01:01 < SporkWitch> triceratux: i thought your oversimplifcation comment was in response to my off-hand response to Drakonan's privacy query; that's what i was responding in context to
01:02 < triceratux> yep if youre using dns youre being snooped. faceborg just confirms & institutionalises that
01:03 < Roserin> triceratux, what about DNSSEC
01:03 < SporkWitch> there's a reason i don't stress the privacy issues too much lol.  use TLS, use things like duckduckgo, self-host what you can.  going much further is more effort and expense than it's worth (even the self-hosting thing is, for most)
01:03 < Roserin> or alternate DNS servers?
01:03 < SporkWitch> Roserin: if the DNS is free, they're snooping
01:04 < Roserin> source?
01:04 < SporkWitch> Roserin: if you'll excuse the cliche "if you aren't paying for it, you're the product"
01:04 < triceratux> Roserin: DNSSEC started coming up in the google hits today. ive got to read up
01:05 < Roserin> SporkWitch, true
01:05 < Roserin> except opensource software i guess
01:05 < Roserin> though you are the product there too
01:05 < SporkWitch> Roserin: simple mechanics.  servers aren't free, so if they're providing you DNS for free, they must have some means of monetization to provide that service.  And in the case of ISPs, while you're paying them for it, they will still tend to resell your info (because it's profitable) and they even go further by messing with results to suit their objectives (I would not be at all surprised to see
01:05 < Roserin> they want you to make the software better for free
01:06 < SporkWitch> lots of issues accessing, say, piratebay, if you use ISP DNS in germany or the US, for example)
01:07 < SporkWitch> Roserin: the cliche is generally limited to services; other than "joe downloaded a copy" there's no real info they CAN collect from you on the mirrors, and the hosting is the only real "cost" for FOSS
01:07 < Roserin> So is there any answer to the DNS issue??
01:07 < SporkWitch> Roserin: though it of course can apply to locally-installed applications, these are generally regarded as spyware, even when they have legitimate functions and aren't overtly malicious as such, e.g. weatherbug
01:08 < SporkWitch> Roserin: not really.  I suspect hosting providers are a little less sketchy, due to the nature of their business model and not wanting to discourage people from using them.  But even if you host your own DNS somewhere, it still has to look up from somewhere, which is why i pointed out you'd need others using it as well so that your own queries are effectively anonymized by the other traffic
01:09 < Roserin> This is actually relevant to me
01:09 < Roserin> I set up a pihole the other day and I was wondering what the best upstream dns would be
01:09 < SporkWitch> Roserin: though again here, what degree of paranoia is warranted? is it really worth it to go that far to hide that you sometimes visit pornhub?  if you're that concerned, use TOR
01:10 < SporkWitch> and TOR isn't perfect either
01:10 < triceratux> one option is to give up completely, use 8.8.8.8, & deliver the goods directly to google
01:10 < Roserin> eww
01:10 < oehansen> qui agis amicas
01:10 < jim> Roserin, maybe just install your own caching-only dns
01:10 < SporkWitch> cloudflare recently opened their own free DNS as well
01:10 < Roserin> also if I give up, I'm going for best response times
01:10 < Roserin> So 1.1.1.1
01:10  * triceratux only uses that solution for temporary fixes
01:10 < Roserin> It is faster than 8.8.8.8 for me
01:11 < Roserin> Someone recommended dnswatch
01:12 < Myrl-saki> 1.1.1.1 is the fastest for me, too bad it doesn't use DNS extensions.
01:12 < alexandre9099> hi again, i'm trying to configure samba, but windows always asks for password for a public share, what should i do?
01:12 < [R]> alexandre9099: type it in?
01:12 < jim> Roserin, if you install a caching-only dns, then you can put nameserver 127.0.0.1 in your resolv.conf, and it will be very quick
01:12 < [R]> jim: zoom, zoom, zoom
01:13 < triceratux> ping response from here to 1.1.1.1 is about 20% faster than to 8.8.8.8 its true
01:13 < SporkWitch> Roserin: for me, i'm just not too worried about it.  if it's something like a google, that doesn't actually give your information to third parties without a court order, i see that as the necessary sacrifice (my reason for moving away from google is political: they've started banning people for disagreeing with near-religious levels of ideological dogma)
01:13 < alexandre9099> [R], well, it is a public share, that allows guests :D
01:13 < [R]> apparently not
01:13 < SporkWitch> alexandre9099: password-protected shares in hetereogeneous environments are HELL
01:14 < SporkWitch> alexandre9099: non-secure is semi-tolerable to configure, but MSFT has on multiple occasions deliberately made it hard to do password protected shares with non-windows
01:14 < alexandre9099> i don't want password, i just want one share to work :)
01:14 < alexandre9099> i'm on lan with my friends
01:14 < alexandre9099> but they all use windows
01:15 < Roserin> jim: isn't pihole a caching-only DNS server/ (I think it caches anyway)
01:15 < SporkWitch> alexandre9099: does your router have USB ports? good odds it'd be easier to plug an external drive into that
01:15 < alexandre9099> SporkWitch, well, it has, i didn't even tought about it ;D
01:15 < SporkWitch> alexandre9099: or if primarily media, look into plex
01:16 < jim> I dunno what a pihole is... I'm talking about installing software on your machine
01:16 < SporkWitch> i have an older but good enough laptop sitting next to my router with two external drives plugged in, serving all my movies, music, and pictures (and with my lovely upstream, it'll even stream smoothly to me while i'm at work :P)
01:20 < Roserin> jim oh oops sorry
01:20 < Roserin> It's a dns server you install on a raspi
01:20 < SporkWitch> jim: a pie hole is what many people today could do with shutting :)
01:21 < Roserin> It blocks ads for the whole network
01:21 < Roserin> SporkWitch, :(
01:21 < Roserin> sry
01:21 < SporkWitch> Roserin: you're fine lol
01:21 < Roserin> :)
01:22 < Celmor> I wanna find out what consumed space on /, I have a backup with which I can compare to, what tool would be suitable?
01:22 < alexandre9099> SporkWitch, well, windows is just stupid... dolphin works out of the box with my router's share, but windows says that it is not found
01:22 < SporkWitch> alexandre9099: that's... interesting... usually if it's anything it's the other way around lol
01:22 < [R]> Celmor: du
01:22 < Celmor> I meant more graphically how much each dir grew
01:22 < SporkWitch> alexandre9099: if there's a setting for it on the router, make sure the windows machines are on the same workgroup; if there's not, set everyone to "workgroup"
01:24 < SporkWitch> alexandre9099: if still having issues google the router model and "windows can't find share"
01:24 < alexandre9099> for some reason i lost the cookie that my router uses and it only allows one user logged in at time (not sure why...) and now i can't access the router, anyway, i think  that it didn't had any of that windows workgroup
01:24 < [R]> cookie for me
01:24 < [R]> cookie for you
01:24 < SporkWitch> alexandre9099: because multiple people messing with things is generally a bad thing
01:24 < SporkWitch> alexandre9099: should time out in between 5 and 30 minutes, depending on settings
01:25 < alexandre9099> nope, i think that there is no timeout, only a power off solves it, which is stupid
01:26 < SporkWitch> .... wtf kind of router do you have? lol
01:27 < [R]> im watching star trek "we'll need a minute to reconfigure to their binary system"
01:27 < [R]> is ther a binary system other than 0 and 1?
01:27 < phogg> [R]: which episode?
01:27 < [R]> phogg: voyager, future's end pt 1
01:27 < phogg> [R]: also, binary system means two stars circling one another
01:27 < [R]> phogg: they were talkin about omputers
01:27 < phogg> [R]: they.... well, it is VOY.
01:27 < [R]> lol
01:28 < alexandre9099> SporkWitch, i'll check later just in case, but i think that it has no timeout (archer c20 btw)
01:29 < SporkWitch> my favourite star trek basic reality fail was the episode where geordi and crusher are trapped in the cargo bay with the radioactive stuff and DOCTOR crusher says to hold their breaths while they vent the atmosphere to suck the radioactive barrels out lol
01:29 < [R]> lol
01:29 < [R]> well if they dont breath the radiation in...
01:29 < SporkWitch> it's only the OPPOSITE of what you should do in a decompression situation, as anyone that's had even ONE diving course could tell you
01:31 < phogg> SporkWitch: but this is SPACE decompression. In space. Totally different.
01:32 < SporkWitch> phogg: of course, i keep forgetting that WHERE the vacuum is affects HOW it affects things :P
01:32 < phogg> SporkWitch: Damn it, Jim, she's a doctor not a dive instructor!
01:33 < SporkWitch> one would expect decompression to be part of the medical curriculum in a space-faring society, just sayin
01:33 < [R]> maybe they know things we don't...
01:33 < triceratux> http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/304.htm
01:33 < SporkWitch> triceratux: that link is racist
01:34 < [R]> just like in the olden days they thought any number of random false tings
01:34 < [R]> like leeching
01:34 < [R]> and stuff
01:34 < SporkWitch> leeches could help sinusitis
01:34 < phogg> triceratux: this is one of many Voyager episodes I had blissfully purged from my memory.
01:34 < SporkWitch> well, maybe not leeches, but bloodletting
01:34 < [R]> what about cupping?
01:35 < SporkWitch> never heard of cupping
01:35 < [R]> or what about when tehy drill a hole in your head
01:35 < phogg> [R]: trepanning
01:35 < SporkWitch> tre or tri?
01:35 < SporkWitch> i always forget
01:35 < phogg> tre
01:36 < phogg> trepanning has some medical value, just not as much as the savages^Wdoctors of the 18th century thought.
01:36 < SporkWitch> lobotomy is pretty much my ultimate horror; made Sucker Punch all the more potent for me
01:38 < Loshki> SporkWitch: or stroke, which can be worse...
01:38 < phogg> SporkWitch: It gets scarier when you consider that there isn't really a single "you". How many kinds of life did you just kill or blind?
01:38 < SporkWitch> Loshki: lobotomy seems worse to me, if only because it's DELIBERATE
01:38 < SporkWitch> phogg: like i said: ultimate horror
01:38 < dogbert2> LOL
01:39 < [R]> or like that scene in star trek iv
01:39 < Pentode> well if the lobotomy is intense enough you wont really care any more ;p
01:39 < [R]> where the doctor knew all about their crude medical pracices
01:39 < [R]> and thought they were barbaric
01:39 < Pentode> lol, i remember that one
01:40 < [R]> that's the best star trek movie
01:40 < Pentode> they actually _cut_ into patients? my god.
01:43 < irwiss> think kennedy family had a lobotomy done and it wasn't that long ago, humans are fairly close to savages still
01:44 < Pentode> yeah we give ourselves too much credit sometimes
01:46 < ayecee> i can safely say that i have never given anyone a lobotomy
01:46 < ayecee> that i can remember
01:47 < pnbeast> ayecee, shhh.
01:49 < Pentode> well you are not a member of the cool club then
01:58 < bdonnahue> hey guys, i need some advice on a software to use. Im looking for a message bus type of software. The trick is, if a sunscriber connects to a topic after messages are published, i need the topic to replay messages that were missed. I cannot figure out how to make this work. Can anyone help me out
02:00 < SporkWitch> bdonnahue: context is lacking; what are you trying to integrate with?
02:01 < bdonnahue> SporkWitch, I have an application that is producing messages. I want other systems to be able to dynamically link with this program to independently recieve a copy of all the messages that were publishedthat w
02:01 < bdonnahue> does that help?
02:01 < SporkWitch> bdonnahue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syslog
02:02 < bdonnahue> SporkWitch, its for distributed process and object based messages. I dont think syslog will help
02:02 < bdonnahue> i was thinking of somehting like activemq apollo but it seems to have a lacking feature set
02:03 < SporkWitch> i tend to think in terms of solved problems.  logging is a solved problem, as is accessing them
02:03 < SporkWitch> so the question is how to tell those processes to output logs somewhere, then allow stuff to read those logs
02:04 < SporkWitch> i have no doubt that they have a means to do it, you just need to read the documentation to figure out how/where
02:20 < deepfalcon> 34 unique linuxes in my internet (no garbage, just quality)
02:23 < pnbeast> deepfalcon, what are the odds, do you think, that you can get two more people to look at your list of "unique linuxes" and agree with your claim of no garbage?
02:24 < revel> "slim to none"?
02:25 < pnbeast> I feel you're being a little generous, revel.  That's good of you!
02:25 < Loshki> 34? What is that? 10% of distros? Seems possible.
02:26 < Sitri> Try 0.1%?
02:27 < revel> Yeah, they've really come and gone.
02:31 < kazdax> h guys i got my old system taken away from me
02:31 < kazdax> hi
02:31 < kazdax> i am back on winblows :(
02:31 < kazdax> do i stick with debian or do i try installing something else ?
02:32 < revel> kazdax: Maybe you should've eaten your vegetables when your mom told you to.
02:32 < Oddity> why was it taken away?
02:32 < kazdax> haha
02:32 < kazdax> well it was my brothers laptop and he got alittle angry with me for some reason
02:32 < kazdax> so he took it away and this cvomputer dint have the DVD rom working or the USB but i got the USB working
02:32 < kazdax> so now i can install linux on it
02:33 < MageJames> @kazdax: go arch this time
02:33 < kazdax> well arch you see ..i need alot of studying to get it installed
02:33 < MageJames> Yup, that's your next learning curve
02:33 < MageJames> Get good, make money.
02:34 < MageJames> Arch is a great next step
02:40 < Pentode> my advice: install your favorite debian based distro. leave some space for a dual boot and fudge with arch if you want to see if that kind of thing is your cup of tea..
02:40 < Pentode> just my useless .2p ;)
02:41 < kazdax> good advice mate
03:11 < brool> can i install linux to a blank SSD connected via USB to my win10 machine, then pop that SSD into a laptop as my only drive?
03:11 < mellotto> yes. but you dont need Win10 for that
03:12 < mellotto> you can boot your laptop using an linux image and install it into the SSD from there
03:12 < mellotto> how many USB ports does your laptop has?
03:12 < brool> it has 3, but i have no large enough usb sticks for an image :/
03:13 < mellotto> do you have USB-flash on with size?
03:13 < brool> no, my flash drives are from early 2000s and they are like 250mb
03:14 < brool> i read i need a 2gb flash drive for a linux image
03:15 < mellotto> you can still use netinstall (less than 300MB) and do it
03:15 < brool> let me google it and see its size
03:15 < mellotto> what distro you are planning to install?
03:15 < brool> i have no idea, i was gonna go ubuntu because i've heard it's for noobs. this will be my first use of linux
03:16 < mellotto> ok sure...
03:16 < mellotto> debian has a netwintall image (less than 300mb)
03:16 < mellotto> ubuntu is debian based anyway.
03:17 < mellotto> what is the architecture of your notebook?
03:18 < mellotto> 64 or 32 bits?
03:18 < brool> 64 bit intel
03:18 < brool> i was just reading about architectures, it looks like i386 or the amd64 image is what i need?
03:18 < mellotto> you can try ubuntu mini.iso (less than 100MB)
03:19 < mellotto> if your architecture is 64bit, than you choose amd_64
03:19 < mellotto> (we are not talking about processor brands (AMD / Intel)
03:20 < mellotto> https://www.ubuntu.com/download/alternative-downloads
03:20 < mellotto> alternative download section, tou will find Netowkr installer
03:20 < mellotto> basicaly, it boots a minimal Linux system which allows you to run a complete installation using internet.
03:21 < brool> so i just grab mini.iso from here http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/artful/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/
03:21 < brool> ?
03:21 < mellotto> you dont need windows to do that :)
03:21 < brool> and put it on my flash drive?
03:21 < mellotto> are you on linnux now?
03:21 < brool> nope, win10
03:21 < mellotto> :)
03:22 < mellotto> ok. so write that ISO into your USB and boot your notebook from there
03:22 < brool> do i need to do anything special with the .iso or simply paste it in the flash drive like a file?
03:22 < mellotto> i asusme you notebook has ehternet connections ready
03:23 < brool> can it work over wifi?
03:23 < brool> i've lost my ethernet cable
03:23 < mellotto> you have to write it as an image.
03:23 < mellotto> you basically type:
03:24 < mellotto> # dd if=/path/to/mini.iso of=/dev/sdXa bs=4M; sync
03:24 < mellotto> wait until it finishes and you are good to go
03:24 < mellotto> where are you from?
03:25 < brool> usa
03:26 < Gustavo6046> brazil
03:26 < mellotto> Ok. if on Win10, you can write the ISO image using the unetbootin program
03:26 < Gustavo6046> oh
03:26 < Gustavo6046> nvm
03:26 < mellotto> https://unetbootin.github.io/
03:27 < mellotto> you download the mini.iso
03:27 < mellotto> you download the unetbootin and run it on windows.
03:27 < mellotto> it is very simple and you select disk image (point to mini.iso) and destination = your USB driver
03:28 < mellotto> when it finishes, boot your notebook from it
03:29 < Raed> mellotto: Id suggest rufus usb, unetbootin isnt maintained anymore.
03:30 < Raed> brool: ^^
03:30 < mellotto> sounds fair enougth
03:30 < mellotto> rufus it is then
03:30 < brool> i just downloaded rufus
03:31 < brool> but something weird has happened
03:31 < Raed> Use whatever, just unetbootin hasnt been maintained in a few years. It still works id imagine.
03:31 < brool> i downloaded mini.iso to my desktop, but now my computer reads it as a G:/ drive
03:31 < brool> ;-;
03:31 < Raed> brool: Did you mount it by accident?
03:31 < brool> i thought all i did was download it!
03:31 < brool> i can ALSO see the .iso file on my desktop
03:32 < Raed> I wouldnt worry about it, just select the iso with rufus and point it at the usb
03:32 < mellotto> use rufus to write the ISO into the USD (G drive) if G is the drive assigned to USB
03:35 < skwingar> Damn, I'm so glad you asked this because I had just setup an old HDD via USB to my notebook but had no idea what to do with it yet. This is perfect, will be setting up same thing myself.
03:59 < kazdax> is given 300 gig to my linux to much
04:00 < kazdax> should i give it 100 gigs for my debian and save the other 200 gig for other distros ?
04:01 < iflema> kazdax: maybe.... do you need other distros?
04:01 < Raed> kazdax: It fully depends on how much space you are going to use on that specific distro
04:02 < kazdax> to be honest..I am gonna run multiple VMs
04:02 < kazdax> so i think i should just use around 200 ..and leave the 100 for experimentation with arch linux and the likes
04:02 < iflema> kazdax: testing
04:02 < Raed> kazdax: Or use another drive for storage
04:02 < Pentode> i've got like 3,000 packages installed and my OS partitions don't exceed 100gb...
04:03 < Pentode> use a separate partition for home / general storage
04:03 < kazdax> usually i should not be working in root ..so root should get around 40 gig maybe ?
04:03 < kazdax> and home 160 ?
04:04 < iflema> another disk for testing could be a good idea
04:04 < Pentode> sounds reasonable
04:04 < Pentode> /dev/sda7        16G  5.5G  9.2G  38% / <-
04:04 < sauvin> I don't know how to separate the OS itself from all the junk I've piled on it, so I'll just suggest that my /usr/bin is 2 gigs in size.
04:04 < sauvin> The rest of the OS is bound to be some soft multiple of that 2 gigs.
04:05 < kazdax> let me see what i can do
04:05 < kazdax> brb with me on my new os
04:05 < kazdax> actually i have around 1 tb
04:05 < kazdax> but i am gonna stop using windows..i just need to tranfer my files onto my linux
04:05 < kazdax> ISO files mostly
04:05 < kazdax> yea another question
04:06 < kazdax> if i install linux ..can i access my ntfs drive and tranfer files to my linux ?
04:06 < Dragoneye> -o loop question?
04:06 < kazdax> i rememeber being able to do that..but do i have install somethign special on linux to do that ?
04:06 < sauvin> kazdax, when I get a new machine with Windows already installed, what I tend to do is shrink the Windows partition and install Linux on the freed space as a dual boot.
04:06 < kazdax> sauvin that is what iam doing
04:06 < kazdax> i shrinked the windows
04:06 < kazdax> and created 300 gig unallocated space
04:07 < sauvin> That way, all my files are still in the Windows partition, and when I want them while I'm in Linux, I just mount the Windows partition.
04:07 < kazdax> okay
04:07 < kazdax> i see what you mean
04:07 < kazdax> alright ..ill will be back
04:07 < sauvin> A hundred gigs will give you all kinds of space for your Linux install plus tons of goodies :D
04:08 < sauvin> What eats MY hard drive space up is downloads.
04:08 < kazdax> i want to get ride of windows entirely
04:08 < Dragoneye> sudo fdisk -l find your windowspartition, then mount it,   mount /dev/yourwinpart /mnt; ls -l /mnt
04:08 < kazdax> thanks
04:08 < sauvin> Yeah, did that. Windows went byebye after a while. Zapped it and did an mkfs on that partition.
04:09 < Dragoneye> When done, umount /mnt
04:10 < sauvin> This last time, in fact, I got "wild" and formatted the former Windows partition XFS, trying it out.
04:11 < sauvin> Hrm... it appears that my entire /usr tree is some 37 gigs. Surprisingly small; that's after a couple of years of apt-get installing all kinds of random crap to poke at.
04:12 < Dragoneye> Nice command:   apt-get purge randomcrapnottopokeatnomore
04:13 < Mistell> ^
04:24 < kazdax> odd thing happened
04:24 < kazdax> i checked the free space and it said unusable under debian partition tool
04:25 < jim> how large is the HD you're using overall?
04:25 < kazdax> 1 tb
04:26 < jim> ok, pretty sizable... are you trying to install an additional operating system, debian on it?
04:26 < kazdax> yes
04:26 < jim> ok... what other oses do you have on it?
04:26 < kazdax> windows
04:27 < kazdax> a single window
04:27 < kazdax> hey triceratux
04:27 < jim> do you mean one copy of windows?
04:27 < kazdax> i got a new problem
04:27 < kazdax> yes
04:28 < jim> ok... and are you in that windows now?
04:28 < kazdax> yes
04:28 < jim> ok, can you see how much free space you have?
04:28 < kazdax> but when i boot from the netinst debian USB and try patitioning the free space..it says that space is unusable
04:29 < kazdax> it says 300 gig unallocated space
04:29 < jim> how much free space is it?
04:29 < kazdax> not free space
04:29 < jim> ok
04:29 < kazdax> i srhinked the windows C drive and got that space
04:29 < kazdax> but i think it should say free space right ?
04:30 < PowerPCMAC> Anyone here do the dirty?
04:30 < jim> well let's define some terms... when you say unallocated space, you also mean unpartitioned space?
04:30 < kazdax> yes
04:31 < jim> ok, and free space is what's available space on an existing partition, that make sense?
04:31 < kazdax> yes
04:32 < jim> ok, now that we defined those, what do you want to use for your debian install?
04:32 < kazdax> i am trying to make the unallocated sopace in windows intoa partition
04:32 < kazdax> but its not allowing me to do that
04:32 < kazdax> let me check the windows room
04:33 < jim> ok,
04:33 < jim> I'll listen in
04:33 < qlaro> Is it possible to get a decent GPU for a fair price these days? Should I just suffer with my AMD card while I wait out this desktop mining fad?
04:34 < dabba> qlaro, I'm stuck waiting right now.  wanted a 1080 but they are still too pricey for my taste
04:34 < m`r_white^rabbit> you should game on intel integrated graphics and use your AMD card for a desktop mining fad
04:34 < Bashing-om> qlaro: Depemds on what the use case is .. I got a nvidia gt 710B that does very well for my use case . 38 USD .
04:35 < dogbert2> sheesh...no wonder gfx cards are so expensive anymore :P
04:35 < dogbert2> I use my desktop for research and stuff, so I use a fanless GT710 w/2GB
04:35 < qlaro> I want to be able to install the drivers on Mint, first of all. My current card is powerful enough for my purposes, but I can't use the damn thing. I just want to run Leela Zero and play Factorio.
04:36 < qlaro> But If I'm going to buy a new card, I may as well spend a little more than $40. I tend to use my hardware for a LOOOONG time
04:36 < qlaro> Case in point: I'm still on a Core 2 Duo E6600
04:37 < Dragoneye> qlaro: What gfx card do you have?
04:37 < m`r_white^rabbit> desktop mining fad was more like 2013-2014 ... the current situation is a global hysteria ... maybe could be waiting until next gen nvidia before prices of current gen come down to reasonable price
04:37 < qlaro> Radeon HD 6870. I'd use it for five more years if I could get the AMD driver to install.
04:37 < bdonnahue> hey guys, can anyone tell me how i can curl this url http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi?filename=/activemq/5.15.3/apache-activemq-5.15.3-bin.tar.gz&action=download
04:38 < Dragoneye> qlaro: did you download and install the driver from ati?
04:38 < qlaro> Yeah. Doesn't work from Mint 17 and up.
04:38 < Dragoneye> alaro: bummer.. :-/
04:38 < Dragoneye> qlaro: bummer.. :-/
04:39 < Dragoneye> qlaro: mabe switch distro?
04:40 < dogbert2> bitcoin will collapse, eventually
04:40 < Dragoneye> qlaro: forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=237138
04:40 < qlaro> Eh... Ubuntu can shove it, Manjaro is great on my laptop but I don't want to use it on my desktop
04:41 < w00dsman> opensuse is pretty good
04:42 < kazdax> i hvant had problem with debian so far
04:42 < kazdax> windows gives me problem all the time :(
04:42 < qlaro> I used debian before Mint, but I had a mother of a time getting a modern GCC.
04:43 < qlaro> That was years ago
04:43 < kazdax> Fedora is also there
04:43 < w00dsman> use debian sid. problem solved
04:43 < kazdax> whats sid ?
04:44 < mellotto> hi there
04:44 < iflema> Leap _is_ good
04:44 < w00dsman> tumbleweed is quite good as well
04:44 < mellotto> use archlinux sid.
04:44 < w00dsman> debian sid is debian unstable
04:44 < mellotto> :) even better
04:44 < dogbert2> use Armbian :P
04:45 < mellotto> use slackware. that is my second favorite distro
04:45 < illkitten> Arch Linux
04:45 < iflema> Bananian
04:45 < Dragoneye> qlaro: try siduction,  its based on debian sid.
04:45 < Bashing-om> xubuntu-core
04:46 < Dragoneye> try siduction,  its based on debian sid.
04:46 < qlaro> Dragoneye thanks for the link.
04:46 < Dragoneye> np :-)
04:47 < Dragoneye> forum.siduction.org/index.php?page=8
04:47 < mellotto> what is the great matter here?
04:47 < mellotto> finding the best distro for your own purpose?
04:47 < Dragoneye> mellotto: butter is the matter of all time.
04:48  * iflema eggs
04:49 < kazdax> f ing
04:49 < kazdax> windows
04:49 < kazdax> wont allow me to allocate space
04:49  * Dragoneye flour
04:49 < kazdax> to install linux :(
04:50 < kazdax> i shrink the partition ..it creates unalocated space..but then that space is unusable in linux paritioning tools
04:50 < mellotto> same the same but different
04:50 < kazdax> :(
04:50 < mellotto> :)
04:50 < Dragoneye> kazdax: boot linux live and reduce windows partition
04:50 < kazdax> good idea
04:50 < AmR|EiSa> Can I translate linux terminal to Arabic ? And What about RTL ?
04:51 < kazdax> what tool do i use dragon
04:51  * Dragoneye Allways backup you data before.
04:51 < Dragoneye> gparted
04:51 < Dragoneye> sudo gparted
04:51 < illkitten> kazdax, fdisk
04:51 < FXpro> where can I find the blackbox linux people?
04:52 < iflema> FXpro: icebox?
04:52 < FXpro> is that a channel on freenode?  or do I have to goto another network?
04:52 < Dragoneye> FXpro: no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbox
04:53 < iflema> FXpro: window manager?
04:53 < Z7Z2727Z7Z> ##blackbox-linux-people
04:53 < iflema> lol
04:53 < Dragoneye> ? :-)
04:54 < FXpro> ummm, ok instead how about a torrent link to 5.1 of their distro?
04:56  * iflema tears
04:56 < FXpro> parrotos keeps complaining about updates and that then it farts on on reboots so I want to try an ubuntu distro for security stuff.
04:56 < FXpro> unless someone can recommend something else that is more reliable??
04:57 < iflema> blackbox wm still current and blackbox people pentest?
04:58 < iflema> yeah nuh current
04:58 < FXpro> errr wait, BACKbox
04:59 < FXpro> not blackbox.
04:59 < iflema> que Z7Z2727Z7Z
04:59 < Z7Z2727Z7Z> ##backbox-linux-people
05:00 < dviola> just sent this email to the LKML: https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/4/21/185
05:00 < dviola> hopefully someone knows what the issue is
05:00 < Bashing-om> FXpro: #backbox on irc.autistici.org or https://forum.backbox.org/ .
05:01 < FXpro> I tried.  it wont connect
05:09 < triceratux> http://pastebin.centos.org/695591/raw/
05:16 < jml2> triceratux, if you're not using NM to setup the resolv.conf, you shoud make sure the resolv setting in NetworkManager.conf is set to none..
05:16 < dannylee> hi
05:18 < triceratux> jml2: im not doing anything except running monolithic vanilla isos. they all work. looks like the classical dns was on 10.0.2.3 & was hardcoded. these symlinks are a whole new story & its pretty much detailed in post #8 item 2)
05:18 < triceratux> jml2: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1624320
05:19 < triceratux> jml2: im trying to play by the rules. i just have to figure out what they are :)
05:20 < triceratux> jml2: tonsa fun tho. a bug like this is making me look at dns for the first time. ive always been able to ignore it so far
05:20 < jml2> triceratux, yeah the second comment, I think I kinda raised that up yesterday :) ... applications like chrome/firefox are starting to do more of the dns for themselves...
05:21 < jml2> triceratux, yeah and its ugly while this "dnssec" transitions..
05:21 < triceratux> jml2: yep & apt-get as well. stuff that uses http://.  so the system looks like its up for a long time until you try to run ping or hexchat
05:22 < triceratux> yep dnssec is a huge player whatever that is. still more days of googling ahead
05:22 < dannylee> life is _great_if you give it a chance
05:25 < jml2> triceratux, there's good notes in there, it's a good link here
05:25 < Pentode> life is swell
05:25 < ayecee> life is turgid
05:27 < triceratux> jml2: yep i thought it was just a bunch of unfounded anti-systemd rumormongering. nope. hope ubuntu 18.04 is working when it rolls out
05:27 < dannylee> any thing on the internet can be edited...m ay be\
05:28 < jml2> triceratux, fwiw you should be able to override the fallback resolv nameservers if you create a resolv conf setting in /etc/systemd somewhere...  (instead of /lib/systemd/resolv.conf)
05:29 < Disconsented> Any recommened guides for setting up a VM through KVM CLI or will whatever I find on google be fine?
05:29 < jml2> triceratux, "The DNS servers contacted are determined from the global settings in /etc/systemd/resolved.con"
05:29 < jml2> triceratux, https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-resolved.service.html   ...
05:30 < jml2> triceratux, thing is that systemd is evolving, so I wouldn't trust documentation over 6 months...
05:31 < triceratux> jml2: yep theres about a halfdozen ways to fix it. so far i can rely on /run/sustemd/resolve/resolv.conf which is properly populated if theyre actually trying to get systemd-resolved to work
05:31 < jml2> triceratux, (that link you gave is 2 years old :p)
05:32 < jml2> triceratux, in your case its probably easiest to set resolv to none in NM's setting , and then set your static nameservers in  /etc/systemd/resolved.conf
05:32 < triceratux> jml2: exactly. thats why i just want to fix it & not play a lot of games with configs which are continuously morphing
05:32  * triceratux gets bored unles his linux is crumbling before his eyes ;)
05:33 < jml2> triceratux, did you try the new SphereOS ? XD
05:33 < jml2> lol
05:33 < jml2> triceratux, smack that!
05:35 < jml2> triceratux, like it or not, there's more things now trending with "systemctl --user"
05:35 < jml2> triceratux, and you can set "symlinks" to /dev/null inside ~/.config/systemd/user/* .. to override systemd-wide user defaults..
05:35 < triceratux> jml2: ive read up on sphereos but it isnt really mainstream quite yet
05:36 < jml2> triceratux, hein!
05:37 < jml2> triceratux, i tried clearlinux ("intel's linux") and it is meant for embedded/cloud systems.
05:37 < jml2> triceratux, I'm not impressed with its gui.. it's poop.
05:38  * jml2 "clearlinux" != "clearos"
05:39 < jml2> triceratux, you're a hooker aren't ya? lol
05:39 < jml2> triceratux, nice name for a city hahahaha
05:40 < jml2> triceratux, yeeehaww! XD
05:40  * jml2 "Hooker Creek" XD
05:41 < jml2> gotta get back to some testing
05:41 < triceratux> always a pleasure. thanks again for the hints
05:42 < jml2> this upgrade mysql->mariadb for me is a pita.
05:44 < blocky> anyone play csgo? i have a skylake i7 + gtx 970 and the game is like 8 years old, but when i turn on double/triple buffering i get serious input lag
05:46 < jml2> it's still a big thing in development -> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/04/how-to-keep-your-isps-nose-out-of-your-browser-history-with-encrypted-dns/    < triceratux
05:46 < Z7Z2727Z7Z> input lag from double bufferins?  damn that's sad
05:47 < jml2> dnssec and competition from dns-over-https is going to be interesting
05:48 < blocky> i get solid 200fps when no buffering
05:49 < blocky> i dont see it as sad so much as i'd like to know how to fix it :-)
05:50 < Z7Z2727Z7Z> it's sad because input latency should not be affected by rendering options
05:50 < blocky> i guess it's not really input lag
05:50 < Z7Z2727Z7Z> you said you "get serious input lag"
05:50 < blocky> was not sure how to describe it but it's more like the interval of game time that passes each frame is not constant, so more like judder?
05:52 < blocky> also the in-game fps is sometimes constant at 60 but sometimes goes higher, which doesn't seem right when vsync is enabled and it's a 60hz monitor
05:52 < Z7Z2727Z7Z> yeah that is sad too
05:53 < xau> noticing dropped frames?
05:53 < xau> or equipment exceeding spec
05:54 < blocky> i7-6700K and a gtx 970, should be okay for counter strike I think :-P
06:06 < ||JD||> CS in 2018...you kinda deserve it
06:07 < Z7Z2727Z7Z> more like, still using nvidia in 2018
06:07 < ayecee> critics gonna crit
06:10 < blocky> i bet it works fine in windoze :P
06:10 < blocky> i hear windows has bash now too, been looking for an excuse to try it out
06:11 < iflema> so you can run git?
06:12 < iflema> have a look at the cal
06:12 < blocky> you can run apt-get, yeah
06:12 < iflema> run the python
06:12 < jim> blocky, did you know bash comes as source? :)
06:12 < blocky> jim the source for bash is awful, full of nested #ifdef
06:13 < jim> that's so that it can run on different platforms
06:14 < blocky> yeah not saying it's bad code, per se, just makes it harder for a person to follow
06:14 < ayecee> run it through cpp first
06:14 < ayecee> easy peasy
06:14 < jim> that's probably true
06:15 < jim> after cpp, you don't have the comments
06:15 < blocky> unrelated but has anyone seen the fosdem presentation on history of unix architecture? really interesting
06:18 < blocky> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbDebSinSQo
06:21 < Celmor> I'm trying to give my VM higher priority than an encoding job via nice but it isn't working https://puu.sh/A85Yr/f67e2a55cb.png
06:22 < ayecee> looks like it's working
06:22 < ayecee> what makes you think it's not working
06:23 < Celmor> how so? ffmpeg takes up more cpu resources and is starving out qemu
06:23 < ayecee> what makes you think that?
06:23 < Celmor> 341% vs 193%
06:23 < Celmor> and the VM being barely responsive
06:23 < ayecee> i imagine qemu isn't asking for cpu time as much
06:23 < ayecee> maybe io startved
06:23 < ayecee> starved
06:24  * sauvin can testify to IO starvation
06:24 < Celmor> it would take up 3 times as much as it does currently if it could
06:24 < ayecee> what makes you think that?
06:24 < Celmor> cause I just stopped ffmpeg and it does now
06:25 < ayecee> that would also be consistent with being io starved
06:25 < Celmor> ffmpeg mostly just uses CPU and not IO
06:26 < Celmor> the file is on tempdrive and output on an independant HDD
06:26 < Celmor> VM uses NVMe and GPU which is passed through via IOMMU
06:27 < Celmor> all it is waiting for is CPU
06:27 < fr0b> Teh google seems to think you should use taskset to pin the Vm to certain CPUs
06:28 < Celmor> or rather the other way around, pinning ffmpeg to a single core so it can't take up more
06:28 < fr0b> true
06:28 < Celmor> thanks
06:29 < Celmor> it's invokation is strange
06:32 < Celmor> still uses more resources than the VM...
06:33 < ayecee> it's always ready to run, while the vm is only sometimes ready to run
06:33 < fr0b> is the VM still laggy?
06:33 < Celmor> https://puu.sh/A86nw/34f573eec8.png
06:34 < Celmor> unusable
06:35 < fr0b> sorry sir
06:35 < Celmor> I don't get how it can use up 400% if it only can run on 1 core
06:35 < fr0b> id experiment with those taskset values
06:36 < Celmor> htop in screenshot shows that it only has 1 core it is allowed to run on
06:38 < isokee> hi everyone. :)
06:38 < isokee> is there a way to reformat a usb drive eventhough i can't see it using fdisk -l?
06:39 < sauvin> Nope.
06:39 < isokee> but i can see the device using the lsusb command
06:39 < Celmor> if there's no block device file you can't format it
06:39 < Ben64> bingo
06:39 < Celmor> try lsblk
06:40 < isokee> thanks
06:40 < isokee> can't see it on lsblk either
06:40 < isokee> so basically, there's no way to fix this?
06:40 < fr0b> Celmor: and you used -a?  Also chrt exists, i didnt know that before now either, this is some fascinating stuff
06:40 < Ben64> isokee: might be ded
06:40 < Celmor> load the proper driver? either that or it just doesn't support it
06:41 < isokee> yeah, it might be.
06:41 < isokee> it's actually an mp3 player
06:41 < Celmor> fr0b, I used this https://ptpb.pw/3LKj
06:41 < sauvin> isokee, have you ever successfully mounted that device?
06:41 < Celmor> then you probably access it using mtp
06:42 < isokee> sauvin: before. yes
06:42 < fr0b> looks correct to me, Im out of ideas though I'm personally going to go study this and chrt more...
06:42 < isokee> sauvin: i'm not really sure what happened. the player still works though and it would still charge i think?
06:43 < Celmor> isokee, does it show up in a file manager as an accessible device?
06:43 < isokee> Celmor: unfortunately not anymore
06:43 < isokee> Celmor: before, it did
06:43 < Celmor> does it charge?
06:43 < Celmor> maybe bad cable, can you still play files on it?
06:43 < isokee> Celmor: yeah, it does
06:44 < isokee> Celmor: ok, thanks. but i can see the device using the lsusb command? although, i'm not really sure what that command does?
06:45 < Celmor> well what does that command say for that device though, what do you see in dmesg when you plug it in
06:45 < Celmor> you may have to toggle a setting on the device or unlock it to be able to access files
06:47 < isokee> Celmor: it says the name of the device as well as the manufacturer?
06:47 < isokee> Celmor: looking for the dmesg atm
06:50 < Myrl-saki> I ran x86 qemu-user under armv7-l qemu-user
06:50 < Myrl-saki> Fun stuff.
06:51 < isokee> Celmor: dmesg says "New USB device found"
06:52 < Celmor> does it say anything about drivers or softw2are?
06:52 < isokee> yeah, it says Rockbox
06:53 < isokee> Celmor: i might try to see if a setting was changed. :)
06:53 < m1n> is it possible to override color52 (or any other color other than 0-15) in .xresources (specifically for urxvt)?
07:10 < isokee> i think this device is already dead. anyways, thanks for the help Celmor, Ben64, sauvin
07:10 < Celmor> np
07:11 < Psi-Jack> Mmm, nice.. Just about got all of my ceph cluster migrated to bluestore.
07:12 < ratchetwrench> are services more stable than processes?
07:12 < Psi-Jack> ratchetwrench: They're the same thing.
07:13 < Psi-Jack> A "service" is a process.
07:14 < sauvin> A process, however, is not (necessarily) a service.
07:15 < ratchetwrench> hm
07:15 < ratchetwrench> didn't know this!
07:16 < Voop> Psi-Jack: here's the thing. you said "a service is a process"
07:16 < Voop> are they in the same family? sure
07:16 < Roden> Is there a way to override ubuntu's choice of which of my speakers to select?
07:16 < Roden> I want it to use my PC speakers right now instead of the audio jack
07:17 < snugger> Man I wish I would've switched to Fedora ages ago
07:17 < snugger> dnf is so good
07:17 < Voop> Roden: sound settings?
07:18 < Psi-Jack> Everything is a process that's running. A "service" is just a process that continues to run and provides something, generally communication of one form or another, such as a web server provides communication via http protocols.
07:20 < Roden> Voop,  i tried all the stuff in there
07:21 < Roden> i think there's a grounding problem on my audio stuff
07:21 < Voop> Roden: i never thought about disabling the audio jack input
07:21 < sauvin> Services aren't always related to communication of any kind. I understand systemd also provides cron-like functionality, for example.
07:21 < Voop> i can switch from my laptop audio to my (hdmi) tv audio in sound settings
07:23 < SporkWitch> Voop: if the audio jack in question is a headphone jack, it is standard behaviour to cut main audio and output over that (it's kind of the main usecase of a headphone jack).  i'm not sure if there's a setting buried somewhere to override that behaviour
07:23 < Psi-Jack> True. Hence I said generally. Though systemd timers even still communicate to journald to provide logs of the events it runs. :)<
07:25 < SporkWitch> Voop: might try checking in alsamixer?
07:39 < TomTheDragon> Anyone know why Seamonkey gets sent to the desktop where I clicked a link, rather than staying in the same desktop with a new tab opened? This is using JWM.
07:41 < SporkWitch> seems like desirable behaviour in most cases; people typically expect to continue interacting where they are
07:44 < arunkumar413> this is my partition table
07:44 < arunkumar413> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/mCx9xVXGvT/
07:44 < arunkumar413> Any idea on which one of those is boot
07:45 < Voop> not enough info
07:46 < arunkumar413> Is an android kenel output
07:46 < arunkumar413> I just referred to this doc: http://droidcore.blogspot.in/2012/12/how-to-edit-initrc-in-android.html
07:47 < arunkumar413> it talks about the mtd devices but not mmcblk
07:47 < SporkWitch> arunkumar413: lsblk
07:48 < arunkumar413> it says not found
07:50 < arunkumar413> I'd to to extract the boot image
07:50 < arunkumar413> so I ned to find the boot partition
07:58 < sauvin> arunkumar413, this is for an Android device?
07:58 < arunkumar413> sauvin: yes
07:58 < sauvin> You're aware this is a Linux channel, and that Android isn't Linux?
07:59 < arunkumar413> sauvin: I'm trying to extract the boot image. But unable to find the boot device
07:59 < sauvin> I personally have no clue how Android is even structured. Have you tried asking in #android?
08:00 < Psi-Jack> #android or #android-dev
08:06 < lovetruth> hello :) I've got an ESP8266 dev kit board. I have to go and give it to a friend in a few minutes... and I want to upload NodeMCU to it before giving it to him :) . I am running Xubuntu 16 right now, I do have python. I don't want to build the NodeMCU... is there any pre-built image?... He's gonna play with the nodemcu over web or with Blink app... Can you recommend me some pre-built NodeMCU image, please?... :)
08:08 < ayecee> i don't even know what a nodemcu is
08:10 < lovetruth> it's a small linux that runs on some small IoT devices (like Arduino and ESP8266) - that can provide an user with different linux functionalities -> including a terminal, running lua scripts, a web server, etc
08:17 < TomTheDragon> lovetruth, err... linux can fit on HW that cut down?
08:18 < TomTheDragon> 128k RAM? is it pre-2.6?
08:18 < lovetruth> TomTheDragon: yes... :) also... ever heard of TinyCore?... or busybox images?... :)
08:19 < shan> Okay, what do these smart stats mean
08:19 < shan> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/gYeFgzcs/shanSMART.txt
08:19 < TomTheDragon> lovetruth, I played with TinyCore before, and am using Alpine now (musl libc, busybox core stuff)
08:19 < shan> Everything reports prefailure or old age
08:37 < SuperSeriousCat> It means the disk is dying, shan. Get everything you want to keep out of there asap
08:37 < shan> But a lot of people have brand new disks that report the same
08:37 < shan> And some dude called tpw_rules from ##electronics said this:
08:38 < shan>  00:13:15 <tpw_rules> shan: okay. read carefully: if the WHEN_FAILED column says something other than -, the TYPE column tells you what that means
08:38 < shan> 00:14:27 <B100+ shan> 00:13:26 <tpw_rules> all rows say -, so there is no prefailure or old age
08:38 < shan> 00:13:36 <tpw_rules> the drive is 100% healthy
08:39 < junka> IT'S HEALTHY BOYS
08:40 < SuperSeriousCat> My bad. Read it wrong :p
08:40 < sauvin> smart output can be tricky to read. :\
08:40 < shan> SuperSeriousCat: so it's fine?
08:40 < shan> 100%?
08:42 < SuperSeriousCat> Looks good to me
08:42 < shan> Okay. cool.
08:43 < shan> Bye, then, and thanks!
09:00 < drsn0w> Morning, folks
09:05 < SporkWitch> drsn0w: don't assume our geography, bigot!
09:13 < pankaj> I checked the command 'uname -a'. It has a field 'SMP' and 'SMP PREEMPT'. What is the difference and I did not get the difference clearly and why it is important?
09:14 < MyCuriosity> SMP = symmetric multiprocessing
09:14 < drsn0w> Spok
09:15 < pankaj> MyCuriosity: OK. Then 'SMP PREEMPT'
09:15 < drsn0w> SporkWitch: Universal Greeting Time hehe
09:15 < MyCuriosity> pankaj: same shit, but preemptable
09:16 < SporkWitch> drsn0w: at least you didn't say "good morning," that's just an oxymoron :P
09:17 < pankaj> MyCuriosity: What does the field denote and what are the other combinations possible with this field.
09:18 < drsn0w> SporkWitch: very true
09:25 < dell00_> Hello.
09:26 < dell00_> I'm trying out a new distro: killx.
09:26 < dell00_> I'm on it rn.
09:26 < dell00_> It's amazing.
09:26 < dell00_> https://killx.linuxbbq.org
09:26 < junka> i don't click, sorry
09:27 < drsn0w> dell00_, interesting
09:27 < dell00_> Copy and paste the link into your browser, then, junka.
09:27 < drsn0w> Might have to give that a whirl in a VM
09:27 < drsn0w> junka, the link is safe
09:27 < SporkWitch> linuxbbq.org is reputable
09:28 < junka> lol what kind of distro is this
09:28 < SporkWitch> one designed specifically for trying lots of different things out to find what you like
09:28 < dell00_> ^
09:29 < z3r0sTr3sS> ops i clicked on
09:29 < lovetruth> hm... interesting, dell00_ :)
09:29 < drsn0w> dell00_ thank you for unintentionally reminding me to finish my Gentoo installation. ZFS on dm-crypt is a little challenging with gentoo heh
09:29 < junka> 5th line, lol
09:30 < lovetruth> what would be your fast advice on running something on old dual-core laptops?... (GUI needed... otherways... minimal is OK)?...
09:31 < drsn0w> lovetruth: for something simple, I'd say just stick with Xubuntu
09:31 < dell00_> I'd say Lubuntu.
09:31 < drsn0w> or if your adventerous, Alpine with Xfce :D
09:31 < drsn0w> you're*
09:31 < lovetruth> drsn0w: Xubuntu is my choice for that laptop too, now... :)
09:31 < lovetruth> for now*
09:32 < dell00_> Puppy Linux?
09:32 < pepermuntjes> lovetruth, how old?
09:32 < drsn0w> it's what I've always used on my more underpowered laptops, but I've just given Alpine a go and am surprisingly happy. It's super minimal, busybox based, but a fun project
09:32 < lovetruth> Asus K53U
09:32 < dell00_> It's alright.
09:32 < dell00_> You can give Puppy Linux or WattOS a try.
09:33 < dell00_> Or my favorite: Slackware.
09:33 < pepermuntjes> ubuntu mate?
09:33 < lovetruth> have something even older... actually... :) what about that?...
09:33 < junka> let's all say something!
09:33 < lovetruth> it's Benq nscreen i221
09:33 < junka> i say debian!
09:34 < dell00_> I'd advise against Arch Linux, *shrug*
09:35 < lovetruth> limitation: it has to be able to play youtube HD... :)
09:35 < SporkWitch> depends entirely on the person and the use-case.  arch is pretty awesome, but it's not for every person or situation
09:35 < dell00_> And I'm among the latter.
09:36 < lovetruth> drsn0w: Alpine seems nice :) ...
09:37 < pepermuntjes> Current Alpine Version 3.7.0 (Released Nov 30, 2017)
09:37 < pepermuntjes> it doesnt get updated?
09:37 < drsn0w> The packages do
09:37 < drsn0w> I believe that's just the current release
09:38 < drsn0w> anyonE who knows better can correct me :)
09:38 < pepermuntjes> what package managament system does it use?
09:39 < drsn0w> it's own called APK
09:39 < drsn0w> it's super fast
09:39 < drsn0w> it installed xorg and xfce4 in about 20 seconds lol
09:39 < drsn0w> on a celeron
09:39 < replicant_> wow
09:39 < replicant_> amazing
09:40  * replicant_ is reading the Alpine Linux wiki
09:42 < dell00> ^ How did you make that message?
09:42 < drsn0w> dell00, he used /me i believe
09:42  * dell00 is testing
09:42 < dell00> Ohhh...
09:56 < ejr> i created a new user in my linux installation with useradd -m -d /home/newuser newuser and I also set the bash variable so that I see the folder I am currently in in the terminal. however when I log into my new user, it does not change to the newuser's home directory. instead it stays in the old user's directory. How can I change this?
09:58 < SporkWitch> ejr: you didn't log in, you switched user
09:59 < ejr> SporkWitch: true I guess. is there still a way to automatically set the new home folder after switichn
09:59 < SporkWitch> ejr: also, the default homeroot is /home/ so -d and its argument were redundant in this case, -m will create the home dir, -d is used to use a home dir other than the default
09:59 < ejr> *switching
10:00 < SporkWitch> ejr: cd ~
10:00 < ejr> SporkWitch: thanks. But I don't want to type out cd ~ everytime I switch users.
10:00 < SporkWitch> ejr: if you actually log in as that user, you'll be in its home; when you use "su" you just change to that user, you don't change the cwd
10:00 < edd_lc> ejr: `su - <user>`
10:01 < hexnewbie> I believe both  ‘sudo -i’ and ‘su -’ go the the home directory as part of the process of invoking a login shell. I could be wrong
10:01 < SporkWitch> ejr: better question is why you're jumping between users in this way, rather than using sudo to execute commands as the necessary user
10:06 < sauvin> I sometimes mess with multiuser crap, logging in somehow as each of a number of users in a Konsole tab.
10:08 < SporkWitch> i'm not saying there aren't occasions and reasons to do it, but in a scenario where having to cd ~ is an actual, measurable inconvenience, it means there's a better way to do whatever it is you're ACTUALLY trying to do
10:08 < SporkWitch> can't remember if we've had the conversation before, but basically, when you're using a shell or something like vim, if it feels like it should be easier, it probably is and you're approaching it wrong
10:09 < ejr> thank you guys, the su - user command solves it.
10:10 < SporkWitch> ejr: depending on what you're doing, there's probably a still-better way to do it
10:11 < ejr> ok, well I just created the second account so that I can run specific programs in there for focus work, with its own browser config, latex writer automatically opening etc.
10:12 < SporkWitch> definitely better solutions that don't even require a separate user, heh
10:13 < ejr> SporkWitch: which ones for example?
10:14 < SporkWitch> ejr: most browsers have means of setting up different config profiles, if not natively, then with plugins.  opening up a few programs at once can be easily scripted
10:16 < ejr> SporkWitch: hehe, yeah, I've tried that for a while but if I bind e.g. opening my tools needed for work to certain keys in my i3wm config, and if that's the same config that also contains my bindings for fun stuff, it's too easy for me to distract myself with just a key press. So I'd rather create a new user with completely new, almost blank configs for firefox,vim,texstudio etc so that there is a higher
10:16 < SporkWitch> ejr: that's the broad answer, because you're being vague about the details of your use-case.  If you're looking to test specific environments there are still other options
10:16 < ejr> 'barrier' between me and the distracting stuff.
10:18 < SporkWitch> ejr: heh, in an ironic twist, you sound like the ideal candidate for KDE's "activities" feature, something universally panned by everyone except the dumbass in charge of that feature lol
10:18 < ejr> SporkWitch: KDE is too bloated for my taste though, I prefer WMs over GUIs
10:18 < ejr> (but have been using KDE about a year ago for a while)
10:18 < SporkWitch> ejr: pedantic, but you mean WM over DE
10:19 < hexnewbie> I would be surprised if anyone on Earth uses activities, even if it does some of what they need.
10:19 < ejr> SporkWitch: right
10:19 < sauvin> I never did figure out this "activities" thing. I still use "virtual desktops".
10:20 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: there's a reason i hate them so much; because no one in their right mind DOES use the damn things, they deliberately degraded the features of virtual desktops to try to force people to use them (the guy who came up with "activities" is also in charge of the virtual desktop support)
10:20 < SporkWitch> by all means, have some feature available, but when you start deliberately crippling other features to make people use your pet project? unacceptable
10:20 < hexnewbie> The main purpose of activities is to have a default global shortcut (easy to accidentally press) that closes your current activity, without confirmation, thereby closing all your windows, wrecking your session, breaking all your running tasks and leaving you wondering why your desktop is suddenly something completely different.
10:21 < ejr> that sounds like a case of 'well meant and good idea but badly implemented'
10:21 < sauvin> If what hexnewbie says is true, I'd call it "rucking fetarded".
10:21 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: that's more than a little disingenuous; there's no need for that when there are so many legitimate criticisms, like the performance issues, applications crashing when moving them between activities, and the fact that shortcuts to switch directly to specific activites don't work
10:22 < FXpro> I want to play around with security distros which I am already in the process.  which distros are best for anon surfing?
10:22 < SporkWitch> sauvin: it's not; most of those globals aren't even mapped by default.  I would compare his comment to obsessing over hillary's emails: it's a red herring, really, when there's so many legitimate and glaring faults that require no hyperbole at all
10:23 < SporkWitch> FXpro: tails is the only one i'm aware of
10:23 < FXpro> or which can force to tor exclusively besides tails and parrot os
10:23 < FXpro> I tried tails.
10:23 < FXpro> big fat pain to get it on a usb but I will try again.
10:23 < sauvin> Bottom line is that I'm not missing anything by not doing these "activities"?
10:23 < ejr> FXpro: tails or heads
10:23 < FXpro> well, using a windows comptuer it was a big fat pain.
10:23 < sauvin> FXpro, for what reason are you trying to use tails?
10:24 < FXpro> I want to surf the web anonomous
10:24 < FXpro> tor is free anonymous right?
10:25 < FXpro> I installed backbox which is some sort of hybrid ubuntu.  I like it so far.
10:25 < ejr> FXpro: yes, but depends on what you mean by anonymous. Make sure to read the Tor documentation so that you know what to use Tor for and what to NOT use Tor for (e.g. don't log in to facebook with it)
10:25 < SporkWitch> FXpro: answer sauvin's question
10:26 < FXpro> parrot os is nice too but has some kind of update and upgrade problems still.  2nd time I tried it in several months and when I ran the updates and upgrades on reboot it wont boot or it just wont run the updates and upgrades too.
10:26 < hexnewbie> SporkWitch: That's not disingenuous at all. Windows+S in KDE closes the current activity, killing all your GUI programs and leaving you without your desktop. I don't have a Windows key enabled, so I have never had that issue, but mc users where Alt+S/Ctrl+S is quick search are struck by this quite often. Accidentally pressing Windows instead of Alt/Ctrl and your desktop is *gone*
10:26 < FXpro> sporkwitch I already did answer, I want to surf anonymous
10:27 < FXpro> vpn is another thing right?
10:27 < sauvin> I'd trust VPN more.
10:27 < sauvin> Bear in mind that if you're visiting sites the mibs don't want you visiting, there's no real protection.
10:28 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: that shouldn't be mapped by default, and it also doesn't let you close the last open activity
10:28 < FXpro> there is only one way to make sure you are safe in malware virusville spyware and that is to unplug your computer  :)
10:28 < FXpro> but that is no fun
10:28 < hexnewbie> SporkWitch: It's mapped by default, I have manually disabled it on my systems just in case (in spite of the fact that my Super_L is bound to something else)
10:28 < FXpro> sites like what?
10:28 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: also, it's meta, not windows
10:28 < FXpro> mibs?
10:29 < SporkWitch> men in black, FXpro
10:29 < ejr> is it possible to have one's bash aliases in a file other than .bashrc btw? the problem is, I have two computers with linux on them and almost similar bashrc's, but there are minor differences in the functions, aliases, names of network interfaces etc.. but most aliases for my daily routine are the same and I don't want to manually have to add new ones or change them on both machines. I'd rather just
10:29 < hexnewbie> SporkWitch: Qt-land treats Windows as Meta, GTK-land as Super. I stay out of that fight and call it Windows
10:29 < ejr> rsync/scp them on the other one if something changes. is that possible? in my current setting i'd have to copy the entire .bashrc which would cause problems for reasons stated
10:29 < FXpro> men on crack or?
10:29 < FXpro> ;p
10:29 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: what version of KDE are you using that it's mapped by default AND it now lets you close the only running activity? O.o
10:30 < FXpro> the spooks dont spook me.  no reason for them too since I am not a criminal like them  ;p
10:30 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: the latter is a bug, the former just dumb
10:30 < sauvin> It's a kind of umbrella term for government agengies that don't have public relations budgets.
10:30 < hexnewbie> SporkWitch: The coworker who faced the issue is running 4.14.2
10:30 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: that's very outdated...
10:31 < hexnewbie> (And so am I)
10:31 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: 5.x was released a few years ago
10:31 < FXpro> another thing, what if I want to use linux distros on an open source smartphone?
10:31 < hexnewbie> SporkWitch: It's still unusable. I downgraded my work computer to 5.x, and I've been regretting it ever since.
10:33 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: of course activities are horrific, but the issues you're describing i've never encountered, and are absolutely not present in current versions
10:33 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: the ones i described were present as recently as 6 months ago
10:35 < hexnewbie> SporkWitch: Yeah, you reported a while back that with 5.x the situation with activities/virtual desktops has gotten worse. Was another reason I delayed the installation of 5.x, but on my work computer at least it's not one of the things I'm having issues with.
10:35 < ejr> sorry, right after posting my question above I lost my connection. could someone be so kind to let me know whether someone answered?
10:35 < p3rL> i want this output in abc file oct1=$(echo ${IP} | tr "." " " | awk '{ print $1 }') am using echo 'oct1=$(echo ${IP} | tr "." " " | awk '{ print $1 }')' > abc its not working correctly cause of single quotes can any one plz help me with this ??
10:36 < SporkWitch> ejr: zsh allows sourcing separate files in the main rc file; check the documentation for bash
10:37 < sauvin> p3rL, I'm having trouble reading that. What are you trying to do?
10:37 < ejr> SporkWitch: ok, will do, thanks!
10:38 < p3rL> sauvin i want to put this text in a file oct1=$(echo ${IP} | tr "." " " | awk '{ print $1 }') i used echo 'oct1=$(echo ${IP} | tr "." " " | awk '{ print $1 }')' > file
10:38 < p3rL> echo single quotes and my inner text single quotes conflicting
10:39 < sauvin> Guessing "having trouble reading that" is a bit subtle.
10:39 < sauvin> What are you trying to do, top level?
10:39 < SporkWitch> ejr: dunno if bash lets you, but you can also do some kinds of tests in some stuff. not directly applicable, but one example is my tmux.conf, where i do a test on uname's output, to specify the correct path to powerline depending on whether i'm on debian, centos, or arch (without needing separate configs for each; i can use a single set of config files, and the same setup script to symlink it all
10:39 < SporkWitch> where i need it)
10:39 < p3rL> sauvin am just breaking ip ip x.x.x.x
10:40 < p3rL> oct 1 = 1st x
10:41 < sauvin> echo $IP | sed 's/\./
10:41 < sauvin> (grr)
10:41 < sauvin> I hate my keyboard sometimes!
10:41 < sauvin> Hrm....
10:41 < p3rL> just tell me about it how can i use single quotes with echo single quotes
10:41 < SporkWitch> sauvin: gotta get a mechanical, mate :P
10:42 < p3rL> echo ' ' '
10:42 < hexnewbie> Different shape of enter on the different keyboards: One of the greatest curses of computing.
10:42 < SporkWitch> p3rL: you need to escape it
10:42 < ejr> SporkWitch: yes, i also thought of writing a small shell script for this purpose, that just comments/uncomments specific lines in the bashrc depending on the os/hardware, but if there's an easier way in bash I will try that first
10:42 < p3rL> echo ' ' ' i want this output '
10:42 < SporkWitch> ejr: scripting it externally is _probably_ excessive lol
10:42 < sauvin> echo 25.24.23.22 | sed 's/\./ /g' | cut -d' ' -f 1
10:42 < sauvin> bit easier to read, methinks.
10:42 < SporkWitch> [04:42:13] <SporkWitch> p3rL: you need to escape it
10:43 < p3rL> SporkWitch give me cmd to escape it
10:43 < SporkWitch> p3rL: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+escape+characters
10:43 < sauvin> There's no "cmd" for it. It's something you have to know.
10:44 < p3rL> wow
10:44 < p3rL> you are smart
10:44 < p3rL> Spookan ty for this stupid lnk
10:44 < sauvin> p3rL, do you speak English?
10:44 < SporkWitch> you were given the solution, the follow up is a google question; don't whinge at me
10:45 < SporkWitch> p3rL: also, you REALLY shouldn't be running as root...
10:46 < sauvin> SporkWitch, I'm seeing an ident of "wtfguy" - you base your comment on the gecos?
10:46 < SporkWitch> late, just saw "root@localhost" in the whois lol
10:47  * sauvin smirks
10:47 < p3rL> finally done :D
10:47 < p3rL> [kuku@corp02 ~]$ echo 'oct1=$(echo ${IP} | tr "." " " | awk '\''{ print $1 }'\'')'
10:47 < p3rL> oct1=$(echo ${IP} | tr "." " " | awk '{ print $1 }')
10:47 < p3rL> thats what  i want
10:48 < sauvin> echo 25.24.23.22 | cut -d'.' -f 1
10:48 < p3rL> yea
10:48 < hexnewbie> oct1="$(cut -f1 -d. <<< "${IP}")"
10:48 < p3rL> its also good
10:48 < sauvin> I'm an idiot. It's not necessary to make any substitutions when the delimiter is the same throughout.
10:48 < p3rL> [kuku@corp02 ~]$ echo 25.24.23.22 | cut -d'.' -f 1
10:48 < p3rL> 25
10:49 < SporkWitch> i wasn't even going to start trying to parse awk, it gives me headaches, i was addressing this: "echo ' ' ' i want this output '"
10:49 < p3rL> how to get outpput 25.24
10:49 < p3rL> in 1 cmd
10:49 < sauvin> I knew awk, once, a very long time ago. Used it to chunk up message packets. Then, perl came along, and now I can no longer say I know awk.
10:49 < SporkWitch> p3rL: it's considered rude to send unsolicited PMs; in any case, i have +g, it didn't go through, just make your comment here
10:50 < sauvin> p3rL, also: do you speak English?
10:50 < p3rL> yes its my personal english
10:50 < p3rL> lol
10:50 < sauvin> Use a more internationally recognised brand.
10:50 < SporkWitch> sauvin: i find "what is your native language" is a less antagonistic phrasing of the same query heh
10:50 < p3rL> you should need to buy a dictionary for this eng!
10:51 < sauvin> SporkWitch, yes, but this time, the pointedness was intentional.
10:51 < SporkWitch> fair :)
10:51 < sauvin> p3rL, put it this way: use standard English or risk being ignored or banned.
10:51 < p3rL> a oki
10:52 < sauvin> I, for one, can't be arsed to try to help people who won't try to express themselves reasonably clearly.
10:52 < p3rL> first i need to learn english then bash
10:52 < SporkWitch> it's current year, sauvin, that's racist
10:52 < SporkWitch> #cishetwhitemalescum
10:52 < p3rL> btw how can i get this output 25.24
10:52 < p3rL> * «1:48:05pm: sauvin»: echo 25.24.23.22 | cut -d'.' -f 1
10:52 < sauvin> It seems the term (and even possibly the concept) of "racism" has changed over the years.
10:53 < SporkWitch> sauvin: pretty much the joke in a nutshell :)
10:53 < sauvin> In pure bash, honestly, I can't be sure.
10:53 < SporkWitch> p3rL: man cut
10:53  * sauvin doesn't bash
10:53 < SporkWitch> sauvin: it's not even a bash question, it's a manpage question for the cut command; he's using the right tool, just won't read the manpage which tells him exactly how to do it
10:54 < SporkWitch> sorry, benefit of the doubt, not "won't" but "hasn't"
10:54 < oneko> I think man pages should be translated, then :D
10:54 < SporkWitch> (^ not being sarcastic on that; i was overly harsh in the comment before)
10:56 < p3rL> echo "1.2.3.4" | cut -f 1,2 -d .
10:56 < p3rL> : ))
10:56 < p3rL> watch and learn
10:56 < p3rL> lol
10:56 < oneko> I honestly prefer scripting in python than bash
10:56 < oneko> But, anyways, I barely do any serious system admin work so year
10:57 < sauvin> I can't bash, unless you count the hulk smashes I do on machinery that doesn't work. I tend to perl.
10:57 < oneko> *yeah
10:57 < RoyalJade> hey dorks!
10:57 < oneko> lol
10:57 < oneko> hey RoyalJade
10:57 < SporkWitch> oneko: python is better for any kind of conditionals or branching logic; bash is easier if you just need a simple script
10:57 < RoyalJade> hey oneko, what is your favourite wayland compositor
10:58 < oneko> wayland ?
10:58 < sauvin> Bash is easier if you know bash. I don't. :P
10:58 < SporkWitch> oneko: main reason is because in order to do pipes in python you actualy need to do a lot more writing, whereas in bash you just do "foo | bar"
10:58 < SporkWitch> sauvin: python is actually a much shallower curve to learn how to pass arguments and use pipes, compared to learning bash conditionals
10:59 < oneko> I would like to think i have not used wayland, RoyalJade - after googling a bit
10:59 < pingfloyd> I'd rather script in bash
11:00 < sauvin> Using pipes in bash? Sure! Just string a bunch of commands together. Passing arguments? Um...
11:00 < SporkWitch> pingfloyd: like i said, mostly comes down to how many conditionals and how much branching logic you need; if you have a lot, python is going to be more powerful and easier
11:00 < p3rL> ty for help cya
11:00 < oneko> $1 $2 $3 - something like that ?!
11:00 < oneko> later, p3rL
11:01 < sauvin> p3rL, use standard English. I won't say it again.
11:01 < p3rL> ok
11:01 < oneko> I just realized that his/her/it's nick is supposed to read as perl :-P
11:01 < pingfloyd> I thought it was read as penis
11:01 < p3rL> oneko badly yes
11:02 < p3rL> pingfloyd why were you read as panis when you don't have it
11:02 < p3rL> : ))
11:02 < karthyk> burn
11:02 < sauvin> And badly. What's bread got to do with anything?
11:03 < pingfloyd> bread is filler food
11:03 < SporkWitch> you think names written in 1337 are bad, discord allows not just weird ascii characters, but non-ascii characters and even some emoji in names >_< makes it pure, undiluted hell to highlight or executute text commands on someone, especially from a phone
11:03 < hexnewbie> True. I fill my bread with bread.
11:03 < SuperSeriousCat> Dont use Discord. Simple
11:03 < sauvin> What's Discord?
11:03 < karthyk> discord is good
11:03 < dgurney> does discord not allow completing usernames somehow?
11:03 < SporkWitch> SuperSeriousCat: i'm an admin on a 7k person server >_<
11:03 < pingfloyd> about all I use discord for is gaming
11:04 < oneko> I'd say discord is good, too
11:04 < dgurney> if not, I can certainly understadn the character problem
11:04 < SuperSeriousCat> IRC spinoff with a shiny front-end
11:04 < karthyk> discord =/= IRC
11:04 < pingfloyd> can't even compare it to irc
11:04 < SporkWitch> dgurney: of course it does, but how do you complete a name that doesn't have a single character found on roman-alphabet keyboard? lol
11:04 < oneko> Does it offer for executing text commands on someone ?! You mean things like searching ?
11:04 < SuperSeriousCat> Centralized I think. All chatlogs go on dev's servers
11:04 < pingfloyd> compared to irc it is rubbish
11:04 < pingfloyd> but so is pretty much everything else
11:04 < SporkWitch> the text chat in IRC actually is VERY comparable to IRC
11:05 < pingfloyd> so it's some of the best rubbish
11:05 < dgurney> SporkWitch, oh right, true
11:05 < oneko> SporkWitch: You just type '@' and get suggestions ?
11:06 < oneko> But, yes, I get your point
11:06 < dgurney> but I guess you could argue that someone who makes mentioning themselves impossible probably isn't worth talking with :P
11:06 < oneko> All those chinese/japanese character - well, probably all unicode is supported on discord nicks
11:06 < SporkWitch> SuperSeriousCat: characterizing it as an IRC spinoff is inaccurate; its primary focus was originally competing with teamspeak and mumble for voice; the text is an extra that has proven to be even more popular, but in terms of functionality and usage, is VERY similar to IRC
11:06 < pingfloyd> it's pretty good compared to those
11:06 < oneko> Could be he's just chinese/japanese or just minority, you never know nowadays :-P
11:07 < oneko> he/she/it
11:07 < oneko> Or they :-P
11:07 < SporkWitch> oneko: 🔰 is a supported name character; until my irc client didn't shit itself pasting it in just now (discord shows it as an emoji in full colour) i didn't even know it was "normal" character...
11:08 < SuperSeriousCat> You can install language packs to get full color smileys in IRC too IIRC
11:08 < SporkWitch> dgurney: as a random user, you're right; as an admin, it comes off as trying to make it difficult to police them
11:08 < SporkWitch> SuperSeriousCat: but the IRC servers themselves enforce normal characters for names
11:08 < dgurney> yeah, I can see that being a problem
11:09 < SuperSeriousCat> That is good
11:09 < SporkWitch> dgurney: one of my personal favourites is literally using a :blank: as the name
11:09 < dgurney> oh god
11:10 < oneko> SporkWitch: Interesting because my IRC client has almost all emoji but these are just things I just do for fun
11:10 < oneko> I can see that emoji - it's a book
11:10 < SporkWitch> literally shows as a blank space, and it's a valid name as far as discord is concerned.  on the upside, discord allows admins to change a user's nickname as displayed on your server (comparable to an IRC channel; channels in discord are basically like if IRC supported a second nested channel inside a single parent), so when i see crap that's obviously trying to be annoying to mention/use commands
11:11 < SporkWitch> on, i change their name to something like "i love my little pony" or "NAMBLA supporter"
11:12 < oneko> I didn't know that - i've not used discord for long
11:12 < SporkWitch> oneko: not a book in ascii or discord; it's two quadrahedrons that form a kind of downward arrow, each half being a different colour
11:13 < oneko> Okay, I guess I saw wrong then - it could also be that - but i just went with an open book
11:13 < oneko> Yellow on one half and green-ish on the other
11:13 < SporkWitch> yeah
11:15 < SporkWitch> unfortunately, discord is actually a decent voice chat tool, and the text chat is also good.  it's not as full-featured as mumble, and its permissions system is abysmal (though still better than TS3 by a mile), but it's free and offers everything all the others do except mumble, and most people don't need the extra stuff mumble offers
11:15 < undefbeh> I have got this old laptop. I have installed linux on it. it was pretty easy. however wanna go for hackintosh. would you guys recommend hackintoshing it?
11:15 < oneko> I've only hackintosh'd a vm
11:16 < oneko> :D
11:16 < undefbeh> vm is very sllow
11:16 < undefbeh> even on good hardware
11:16 < undefbeh> for macOS
11:16 < undefbeh> linux runs fine on vm
11:16 < undefbeh> :D
11:16 < oneko> Yeah, before that I didn't know what MacOS looked like so I just thought I'd give it a trial
11:16 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: why? the main benefit of mac is it's not windows and it's at least unix, though with a lot of restrictions.  if you've got linux you've got all the benefits of not-windows without the restrictions of macos
11:17 < oneko> But, undefbeh, it's definitely worth trying, for run
11:17 < oneko> *fun
11:17 < undefbeh> because developing for iOS is impossible in linux
11:17 < oneko> I doubt XCode is a gonna run smooth on an old laptop :-P
11:17 < dgurney> I think macOS is quite nice actually
11:18 < dgurney> it's just that I can't be bothered with hackintoshing right now
11:18 < undefbeh> I find macOS to have benefits of both the worlds (Linux + windows)
11:18 < undefbeh> dgurney: why? is it more difficult to install or maintain? I have installed arch on laptop. :P so difficulty isnt something I am afraid of
11:19 < oneko> What are the benefits of using windows, undefbeh ? in your opinion, that is
11:19 < dgurney> I mean, it's not that difficult if you have well supported hardware undefbeh
11:19 < dgurney> but even then, it can still get quite tedious
11:19 < undefbeh> gaming. applications support. those are the 2 main benefits of windows. and it also has robust DE :)
11:19 < dgurney> especially if an update breaks something
11:19 < oneko> Okay, I second that, too, undefbeh
11:19 < undefbeh> arch updates break things all the time
11:19 < undefbeh> :P
11:20 < oneko> Okay, let me check out this thing SporkWitch is talking about known as mumble :-P
11:20 < dgurney> see here's the weird thing: arch updates have never broken anything for me
11:20 < undefbeh> but I need latest and greatest for development therefore I opted for arch. and ofc. AUR. the king of all repos
11:21 < undefbeh> did gnome fix that memory leak bug yet? I mean now that canonical gets behind it, it should be fixed. canonical actually cares about its users
11:21 < oneko> SporkWitch: https://i.imgur.com/Se6mtwG.png :D
11:21 < SporkWitch> oneko: when it comes to gaming voice comms, it's king, and has the single best permissions system around.  most people don't need everything it does, though, and if you don't, well, discord is free and you don't have to self-host
11:22 < dgurney> undefbeh, I believe one of the team members recently did some sort of fix
11:22 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: it also has WSL now. so you need linux 99% of the time now tbh
11:22 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: ?
11:22 < undefbeh> s/need/dont need
11:23 < oneko> Cool, SporkWitch
11:23 < SporkWitch> do you mean windows subsystem for linux?
11:23 < oneko> I'm yet to become a real gamer
11:23 < undefbeh> being able to play dota occasionally at high fps is great.
11:23 < pingfloyd> WSL isn't that good
11:23 < SporkWitch> if so, that's a deliberately crippled joke; trust me, i've TRIED to make it work for my workflows, it simply can't.  (work won't let me put linux on my work laptop, and i can't request a mac for tech refresh until i hit 3 years)
11:23 < oneko> Yes, Dota works great on linux :D
11:24 < pingfloyd> it's missing a lot
11:24 < SporkWitch> WSL can't even access usb devices, as in at all
11:24 < dgurney> WSL is definitely a neat thing, but IIRC one of its weak points is I/O performance
11:24 < nemanjan00> Hi guys. I have noticed something funny last year or two... My friends who I talked to about my setup just started some time later appearing with linux and Vim... They are mostly CS students... I was just thinking, should I maybe have dualboot to demonstrate more user friendly distro to people who are not CS students... Does anyone here do that?
11:24 < pingfloyd> WSL doesn't even come close to replacing using a dist
11:24 < SporkWitch> dgurney: that too; even on this beast of a laptop it takes as much as 30-45 seconds to open a shell
11:24 < undefbeh> nemanjan00: try ubuntu. the best user friendly distro you will ever have.
11:25 < karthyk> or try arch
11:25 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: kubuntu; unity is shit
11:25 < RoyalJade> nemanjan00 i dual boot like a beast
11:25 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: work laptop?
11:25 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: now its gnome :P
11:25 < SporkWitch> they went back to gnome? O.o
11:25 < undefbeh> yea
11:25 < pingfloyd> I've ran Ubuntu in Windows 10 through WSL and it's not that great
11:25 < undefbeh> 18.04 is gnome
11:25 < oneko> nemanjan00: You mean like to dual boot two linux distros ?
11:25 < dgurney> well that sounds a bit exaggerated, I don't think I've never had a WSL shell open take that long (just some seconds at most)
11:26 < nemanjan00> undefbeh: I did try Ubuntu again recently (long time arch user) and I actually had a lot of problems... Outdated guides on their site, drivers that are depracated, but, still in repos...
11:26 < SporkWitch> gnome is crap too, but it may as well be a distilled orgasm compared to unity; glad to see they finally gave up on that abomination lol
11:26 < undefbeh> pingfloyd: macOS is what I wanna try. heard all cool things about it. plus it has ability of windows and linux (Unix certified)
11:26 < nemanjan00> oneko: yeah, dualboot multiple linux distros
11:26 < undefbeh> and you can develop for iOS as well
11:26 < pingfloyd> undefbeh: oh, you're one of them
11:27 < undefbeh> one of ?
11:27 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: true. but KDE is full of bugs :)
11:27 < SporkWitch> pingfloyd: come on, didn't you like having to manually install basically every standard command that even LFS has by default? including man itself? lol
11:27 < pingfloyd> mac cult members
11:27 < pingfloyd> the McCult
11:27 < sauvin> As a long-time KDE user, I get SO tired of people bitching it's full of bugs.
11:27 < undefbeh> no no. I dont have own mc
11:27 < oneko> nemanjan00: I'd say that ubuntu is the most user friendly distro out there too
11:27 < undefbeh> even own mac*
11:27 < oneko> Or may be something like ....erhm.... mint ?!
11:28 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: are you on kubuntu as main OS?
11:28 < SporkWitch> honestly, the only real KDE bugs i'm even aware of are specific to activities, which no one uses, because they're shit lol
11:28 < oneko> Although, I hear mint is based on ubuntu so well
11:28 < m`r_white^rabbit> kubuntu is bloatware, xubuntu is much more nifty, or just install ubuntu server minimal and install DE/WM of your choice
11:28 < m`r_white^rabbit> KDE is indeed bloated bugware
11:28 < nemanjan00> oneko: yeah, but, when it fails, it fails a lot...
11:28 < undefbeh> omG. dont bring xfce. it looks like crap
11:28 < oneko> Yes, at last someone said it - KDE is bloat!
11:28 < pingfloyd> undefbeh: change its look
11:28 < undefbeh> even windows 95 has better looks than xfce
11:29 < m`r_white^rabbit> yeah if you don't like the way superior software looks, change the appearance
11:29 < dgurney> XFCE can look nice if you put some work into it
11:29 < undefbeh> pingfloyd: and functionality? you cant change that I suppose
11:29 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: it's my primary workstation OS, though i dabble with arch.  Main reason is that it preinstalls 99% of what i'd be installing anyway, without too much extra.  I use debian on most of my servers, centos on my mailserver (i've done it all myself before, but i really like the kolab stack, and it's better supported on centos than debian)
11:29 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: have you used macOS?
11:29 < dgurney> I use Gentoo on literally everything
11:29 < pingfloyd> undefbeh: that's what is good about xfce, it has the features you actually care about
11:29 < Markow> I'm using OpenBox with Rox-Filer (filemanager) which allows me to have a nice desktop with clickable and moveable icons. Also using Tint2 for panel.
11:29 < pingfloyd> and not much more
11:29 < Markow> Very light and fast.
11:29 < undefbeh> ^ that I agree
11:29 < dgurney> even this Pentium III machine I need to do tons of updates on (sigh...)
11:29 < undefbeh> faster than gnome or kde
11:30 < pingfloyd> it's bloated about just the right amount
11:30 < undefbeh> but why use xfce when you can just use WM :P
11:30 < undefbeh> xfce is not worthy of being in DE group
11:30 < m`r_white^rabbit> use Motif
11:30 < dgurney> huh
11:30 < pingfloyd> a wm isn't a de
11:30 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: some, though the MOST i used it was back in 2011, and then mostly from CLI.  I was doing information assurance work in the USAF and was working to secure macosx 10.6 to meet the standards for use in a SCIF
11:30 < m`r_white^rabbit> Motif is amazing
11:30 < undefbeh> DE is full featured desktop environment.
11:30 < pingfloyd> now you're comparing apples and orangest
11:31 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: are you planning to switch to macOS anytime soon?
11:31  * sauvin is busily using his Kubuntu machine to learn erlang
11:31 < undefbeh> btw why not KDE Neon instead of Kubuntu?
11:31 < oneko> Speaking of which, I'm learning C#
11:31 < oneko> Or, mono, to put it
11:31 < oneko> I'm hip like that
11:32 < nemanjan00> Guys, guys, slow down... I am ranger, termite, vim, qutebrowser, mpv... user... My question was not how to hack together good setup or which DE is the prettiest. My question is, do you feel like we have influence to normal users and which distro default that have simple install and is stable would you recommend begginer...
11:32 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: if my job continues to refuse to let me install linux on my work laptop, i will jump on a mac the first chance they give me.  Even with its restrictions, it will allow me what i need for my normal workflows in terms of what my job requires.  Linux would still be better, but at least i wouldn't have to fight through workaround after workaround, and still be left with terrible inefficiency
11:32 < dgurney> solus looks really nice OOB
11:32 < dgurney> and I think it's simple enough for a beginner to figure out
11:32 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: I usually recommend ubuntu to a complete beginner
11:32 < hexnewbie> I'd replace the KDE disaster in a heartbeat if the more annoying bugs weren't in KDE programs I would keep using in a different DE (Konsole, Kate, KCharSelect, possibly even KWin)
11:32 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: true
11:32 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: what work do you do
11:33 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: from there they later decide whether to stay with it or try another one
11:33 < hexnewbie> I'd certainly want to get rid of Plasma, but Plasma is ignorable most of the time.
11:33 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: 99% of what i have to do for work is either through web-based tools or ssh; we only have ONE application that's mac/windows-only, and even that would be better in a VM, since i have to log out of my own account in order to do reproduction tests for customers (with a VM i wouldn't log out, i just spin up another instance).  the web-based stuff it just doesn't matter what OS you have, but
11:34 < undefbeh> dgurney: its a one man made distro with tiny repo. wouldnt go for it anytime soon :P
11:34 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: but the SSH portions? ssh on windows is hell.  much easier to work in a proper linux or unix terminal, which i can get with either linux or macos
11:34 < dgurney> it's not that little actually, has everything most basic users would ever need
11:34 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: i work for an enterprise voip company
11:34 < nemanjan00> pingfloyd: it has proven extremly shitty on less used laptops to me. I never got trackpoint to work stable. It would just stop... It did not want to shutdown without changing some kernel params, I had problem finding drivers I should use since there were just too much badly named packages and some of them should be even depracated...
11:34 < hexnewbie> Hm, the most severe bugs are in KMail, another thing I for some reason haven't been able to replace (been running Thunderbird simultaneously, and it doesn't quite cut it for me)
11:34 < undefbeh> definitely. however as far as terminal is considered, you still have WSL SporkWitch
11:34 < dgurney> plus, sheer size of repo isn't a good measure of distro viability
11:35 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: well, I use debian
11:35 < dgurney> ubuntu has massive repos, but how much in there is outdated and/or useless to the layperson?
11:35 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: I usually have to tweak out thing I don't like
11:35 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: no, i don't, because WSL is deliberately crippled, and has no USB access, can't access the windows filesystem easily, etc.
11:35 < pingfloyd> but I'm used to it and easy for me to do that in debian
11:35 < undefbeh> btw is debian a better choice for a developer than arch? for instance, it has multiple versions of gcc. however arch only has latest one in its repo
11:35 < sauvin> dgurney, "datedness" shouldn't be an issue for most people.
11:35 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: i assure you, WSL is nothing more than a PR stunt to try to get braindead management types to force their devs to use windows instead of a real OS
11:35 < oneko> I have not used windows !0
11:36 < oneko> I have not used windows 10
11:36 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: haha nice one.
11:36 < pingfloyd> oneko: I have, only because I got another laptop and it happened to come with it
11:36 < pingfloyd> I've got debian on it now
11:36 < nemanjan00> dgurney: I actually think Ubuntu repo is very bad since they have very bad naming technique plus a lot of it is not maintained properly..
11:37 < nemanjan00> pingfloyd: does debian have better repos?
11:37 < oneko> I've hoped around over 10 distros over the last 5 years and now I'm back to arch
11:37 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: I think so
11:37 < undefbeh> why would you expect it to be maintained properly when its done by free volunteers? nemanjan00
11:37 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: officially, that's all WSL is for: allowing a development environemtn in windows.  It does this terribly, but if you're willing to waste a LOT of time, you can ALMOST get there, but even then it's still crippled.
11:37 < nemanjan00> pingfloyd: then it sounds like I am recommending debian
11:37 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: the have a huge library
11:37 < sauvin> nemanjan00, I've been using Ubuntu for quite a few years and have never had any problem associated with its repos.
11:37 < oneko> What do you mean by a better repos ?
11:37 < oneko> What ?
11:37 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: so using a vm is the right choice then
11:37 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: i've also found that even basic tools like dig don't always behave correctly in it
11:37 < dgurney> sauvin, true up to a point... if you're lagging behind more than a couple versions, it can become a serious problem, especially if there have been radical changes
11:37 < oneko> Most of what is on debian repos is on ubuntu repos
11:38 < nemanjan00> undefbeh: because Arch has a lot better repo... So it shows me it is possible
11:38 < undefbeh> but they have to maintain one version of a packkage
11:38 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: if a person has the patience, they should just start off with debian
11:38 < trae32566> "a lot better" -- noted. They'll get right on that.
11:38 < sauvin> dgurney, I'm not a developer. I'm an end-user. Why should I care that my spreadsheet or word processor is a version or two behind?
11:38 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: I did about 15 years ago
11:38 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: that adds even more barriers to moving things between the host and guest, DRASTICALLY increases resource overhead, and is STILL much worse than simply having a real fucking OS
11:38 < undefbeh> arch doesnt maintain multiple versions of packages in its repos. nemanjan00
11:38 < trae32566> you're gonna have to be a bit more specific.
11:38 < sauvin> SporkWitch, mind the language.
11:38 < undefbeh> nemanjan00: for example gcc or clang has many versions available in ubuntu repo.
11:38 < nemanjan00> trae32566: problem with arch is there are no nice starter distros...
11:38 < undefbeh> nemanjan00: and its good for development
11:39 < undefbeh> nemanjan00: Antergos ftw!
11:39 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: you're talking about nothing but terrible, underperforming workarounds to ATTEMPT to achieve a normal workflow, that still fail at even getting close.
11:39 < SporkWitch> sauvin: you and i both know that i stay shy of the excessive line
11:39 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: you get good workflow with KDE?
11:39 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: only turn off with debian might be that they use older version of a lot of software (security is kept up to day though of course).
11:39 < sauvin> SporkWitch, I say it in public for a reason.
11:39 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: to some that is more of a pluse
11:39 < oneko> What on earth are you talking about, sauvin ? Developers care about the version of a word processor ?
11:39 < dgurney> sauvin, you would care if you come from using a newer version of the program that had some feature that you use regularly that simply is not there in the old version
11:39 < oneko> it's more like the other way
11:40 < nemanjan00> undefbeh: abiword was broken for months, there are no drivers... There are a lot less popular programs that take name from more popular ones, so, you have to be a lot carefull when you try to install something...
11:40 < oneko> Okay, may be you were being sarcastic
11:40 < pingfloyd> nemanjan00: for me, it's fine, because I only care about a handful of programs running with the latest versions anyway
11:40 < sauvin> oneko, no, I'm saying that developers probably do need to be a lot more sensitive to revision levels than do ordinary end-users.
11:40 < pingfloyd> everything else I only care that it works and is reliable
11:40 < nemanjan00> pingfloyd: I am ok with outdated software, if it works.
11:40 < undefbeh> nemanjan00: I agree but my point is different
11:40 < pingfloyd> debian is great about tha
11:40 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: of course, but since i already know your position on KDE i'd point out that i could achieve an excellent workflow with any DE or WM; the problem is windows itself actively getting in the way of a sane workflow if you aren't heavily dependent on windows-only tools.
11:41 < pingfloyd> extremely stable
11:41 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: kde had a lot of bugs with me using external monitor
11:41 < oneko> sauvin: And, wouldn't that depend on whether you do any developement related to a spreadsheet or a word processor ?
11:41 < undefbeh> and even other bugs that I forgot about
11:41 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: I tried kde on arch. so it was the latest kde :)
11:41 < hexnewbie> I'm a developer and I like to work with older software. Well, the editors mostly, I like the newest libraries and stuff. But I get those with a chroot or virtualenv anyway, so it doesn't really matter
11:41 < pingfloyd> like I wouldn't think twice about running debian stable as a production server
11:41 < sauvin> oneko, you're being obtuse on purpose?
11:41 < oneko> For instance, I'm a developer, I barely used any OS related spreadsheet or word processor except may be google ones
11:41 < undefbeh> hexnewbie: on which distro do you do that
11:41 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: i'm honestly not interested in arguing it, because there are a lot of things that could contribute, and i've never had an issue, but i also have a lot of experience with linux in general; it's irrelevant to the point at hand
11:42 < undefbeh> since its impossible in arch. hexnewbie
11:42 < oneko> sauvin: Yes
11:42 < oneko> lol
11:42 < hexnewbie> undefbeh: Debian Jessie (with Stretch chroot, and newer virtual env). Yeah. you can't stay behind with rolling releases.
11:42 < hexnewbie> undefbeh: But it's actually possible even on Arch. If an older version of a *single* program works better, you can install a Debian chroot to run it from.
11:42 < undefbeh> is there a proper guide on chrooting to latest libraries and versions? hexnewbie
11:43 < undefbeh> have never done it myself
11:43 < sauvin> I've never done the chroot thing myself. If I want "newer" or "more different", I'll just shovel it into a VM.
11:44 < nemanjan00> ok, guys, installing debian as dualboot then
11:44 < undefbeh> sauvin: you on kubuntu right?
11:44 < sauvin> Yup.
11:44 < undefbeh> nemanjan00: haha
11:44 < sauvin> 16.04, in fact.
11:44 < undefbeh> I hate dual booting
11:44 < hexnewbie> undefbeh: No. Actually, the chrooting part is easy (Debian offer schroot, not sure if other distros have that), but the hard part is avoid problems caused by mixing versions (e.g. you should never run both the old and new version of the same program with the same $HOME due to incompatible config files)
11:44 < oneko> I'm on Arch linux - best OS ever - thanks for not asking, guys
11:44 < oneko> Have a nice day!
11:44 < paulcarroty> lol
11:45 < undefbeh> sorry we forgot about your OS. oneko
11:45 < undefbeh> good to know that. btw, I also use arch.
11:45 < paulcarroty> best OS unto first broken update
11:45 < SuperSeriousCat> Im vegan
11:45 < nemanjan00> oneko: arch user too
11:45 < dgurney> hey everyone who doesn't care! I use Gentoo!
11:45 < undefbeh> paulcarroty: what OS do you use mate
11:45 < Disconsented> I use a computer!
11:45 < SporkWitch> arch is great, hold on, *pacman -Syu* CRAP, see you guys next week, i have to fix my computer again...
11:45 < SporkWitch> :P
11:45 < hexnewbie> I'm a cannibal and a vegetarian.
11:45 < paulcarroty> undefbeh, suse
11:46 < undefbeh> paulcarroty: oh paid version.
11:46 < paulcarroty> undefbeh, tumbleweed
11:46 < sauvin> A cannibal vegetarian. That must mean you're the Tomato that ate New York!~
11:46 < pingfloyd> undefbeh: https://m4gnus.de/arch/BestThingAboutArch.png
11:46 < sauvin> (oh, $deity, sometimes I hate this keyboard!)
11:46 < undefbeh> paulcarroty: haha. thats rolling release like arch. it must also break often
11:46 < SporkWitch> sauvin: they're too young, they don't get the reference lol
11:47 < nemanjan00> Actually, I run arch for years without update problems... Sometimes proprietary software fails, but, it is mostly that I just have to delete .so they distributed with software...
11:47 < pingfloyd> are you a killer tomato?
11:47 < paulcarroty> undefbeh, unlike Arch every update is automatically tested.
11:47 < undefbeh> paulcarroty: ofc. just that the tumbleweed installer was broken the times I tried installing it in my PC
11:47 < hexnewbie> sauvin: And my name is Lemonhead http://monkeyisland.wikia.com/wiki/Lemonhead
11:47 < paulcarroty> and I can't remember latest break
11:47 < dgurney> I've only ever had Arch break due my own stupidity
11:47 < dgurney> never a regular update
11:48 < pingfloyd> rolling releases are a pita if your time is limited
11:48 < undefbeh> dgurney: what stupidity was that.
11:48 < SporkWitch> nemanjan00: i'm mostly exagerating, but ti's not an invalid point.  if you need a stable system that just works at a given time, arch is NOT the distro to use, especially if any of your go-to tools are in the AUR.  The constant screwups with keys alone is ridiculous.
11:48 < paulcarroty> undefbeh, not broken, their installed is too much 'geeky'.
11:48 < nemanjan00> My latest breakdown was when my computer turned off while kernel was updating... And I just had to chroot into it and finish installation
11:48 < paulcarroty> but AFAIR new installer war released 2-4 months ago
11:49 < paulcarroty> nemanjan00, it's hardware break, not software
11:49 < undefbeh> SporkWitch: better than installing the tools manually. AUR helper can install tools for you from comfort of your terminal and update it
11:49 < nemanjan00> paulcarroty: but, it would not happen with distros like ubuntu that keep old versions of kernel...
11:49 < dgurney> undefbeh, I can't remember any specifics (it's been a while), but probably just messing around with the wrong thing without knowing what I was doing
11:50 < paulcarroty> undefbeh, OBS has tons of software.
11:50 < undefbeh> ubuntu broke more on me than arch ever did
11:50 < undefbeh> but thats just my experience
11:50 < pingfloyd> define break first
11:50 < nemanjan00> undefbeh: same experience here
11:50 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: sorry to be a condescending ass, but it's late: i'm well aware.  I've used Arch quite a bit.  Even with those tools, the key issues i mentioned are a massive headache.  One person screws up a key update, now everything that depends on it fails to update (and if it's a client app, that means you have to manually fix it, because you can't use it until you update).  Another favourite is if
11:50 < nemanjan00> pingfloyd: just stops working on its own... Stops booting properly
11:51 < pingfloyd> a lot of stuff really just need to be configured right
11:51 < oneko> My shitty street webcam worked out of the box on ubuntu while i couldn't get to work on debian, for  a long time
11:51 < paulcarroty> nemanjan00, if you lost power and your kernel wasn't 100% installed - any distro will be broken.
11:51 < oneko> But, that's just my experience
11:51 < dgurney> when it comes to non-rolling distros, I'm a huge Fedora fan
11:51 < undefbeh> haha typical ubuntu be like "Ubuntu 16.04 experienced an internal error"
11:51 < undefbeh> Lol
11:51 < undefbeh> didnt see that since long time (I am on arch btw)
11:51 < paulcarroty> I was a Fedora fan :)
11:51 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: some random, totally innocuous file, is changed after runtime, which requires manually modifying or removing files, so the git pull works in the helper script.  chrome/chromium is great for that, because it modifies the license file after you agree to it, so every update requires manually removing the license file to keep it from breaking the update
11:51 < oneko> lol undefbeh
11:52 < pingfloyd> that has the soulless soul of a windows error message
11:52 < undefbeh> windows 10 never broke on me. its pretty solid OS
11:52 < undefbeh> tbh
11:53 < SporkWitch> undefbeh: i do like arch, but like i said originally, if you need that system to just work at any given time, it is not the right distro to use, because at any given time you WILL need to dig in, figure out what's wrong, and fix it, before you can go back to actually using it
11:53 < nemanjan00> undefbeh: most of my friends who migrated to linux said their main reason was win 10
11:53 < pingfloyd> i.e., a completely useless error message
11:54 < undefbeh> dont know. wanna buy macbook for the sake of macOS. but its too expensive :(
11:54 < hexnewbie> pingfloyd: To make it worse, your options are to report the error. Without telling you what it is.
11:55 < kubast2> Anyone knows if there is some free solution for a transcoding web proxy (video transcoding is a nice addition) to save on some mobile data.
11:56 < undefbeh> nemanjan00: sure. never seen anyone migrating from macOS to linux thou
11:56 < hexnewbie> Typical for Winbuntu, I guess
11:58 < nemanjan00> undefbeh: I did migrate from hackintosh back to linux.. I just did not find it friendly to use... I hated how installation worked, I hated how they organized workspaces...
11:58 < undefbeh> ah I see. but it has xcode
11:58 < undefbeh> :(
11:59 < nemanjan00> There are just 4 things I really wanted macOS for... iTerm2, their compiler, Sketch and that video editor, I forgot name..
12:00 < nemanjan00> And I have a lot more reasons against it...
12:00 < dgurney> just install clang, and you have the "their compiler" on linux (or almost any other widely used platform)
12:00 < dgurney> but yes, the rest are perfectly valid points
12:00 < undefbeh> yea
12:00 < undefbeh> iterm.. why?
12:01 < dgurney> because nemanjan00 likes it?
12:01 < nemanjan00> dgurney: you can not develope software for macOS or iOS on linux...
12:01 < dgurney> no you can't, but you can have the same compiler (which is what you said)
12:01 < nemanjan00> undefbeh: because, a lot better image support and it is standardized, so, CLI programs themes look a lot better in it...
12:01 < SporkWitch> nemanjan00: plenty of great terminal emulators out there, i doubt iterm2 has anything you can't find elsewhere.  if you mean developing mac-specific stuff?  Yeah, you're pretty much locked, which is just one more reason NOT to do it; it's trivial to run linux and other non-proprietary stuff on windows and mac.  Sketch i don't know, and you don't even know the video editor, so can't comment there:P
12:03 < nemanjan00> SporkWitch: only reason I like iTerm is themes... But, at this point, I am not sure that would be the main reason I choose terminal emulator...
12:04 < SporkWitch> tonnes of terminal emulators have themes, and that is only basic stuff anyway; the useful colouring is application-specific and largely terminal-agnostic (as long as the terminal supports the range of colours, it'll work)
12:05 < hexnewbie> I remember sticking to Eterm for the looks some time ago. I quickly abandoned it anyway.
12:05 < undefbeh> iOS is currently the smoothest and most reliable OS for phone out there. not being able to develop for it sucks :(
12:05 < SporkWitch> ...
12:05 < undefbeh> android is still catching the game but its not there yet
12:05 < undefbeh> in security as well
12:06 < SuperSeriousCat> I feel Android is a lot smoother. So hard to navigate iOS
12:06 < SporkWitch> i suppose that's beneficial if you like overpaying for outdated hardware that you have no control over and doesn't even give you much choice on the software side...
12:06 < nemanjan00> undefbeh: I do not think "Noone can hack it except us" can be called security...
12:06 < undefbeh> try iOS on iphone x
12:06 < undefbeh> you will feel like heaven
12:06 < SuperSeriousCat> Just touch touch and it is all done on Andorid. Got to jump trough hoops on iOS
12:06 < paulcarroty> android is good if you don't buy the cheap chinese devices
12:06 < undefbeh> nemanjan00: hehe. but to many extent its the truth
12:06 < undefbeh> paulcarroty: I use v20 LG
12:07 < SporkWitch> yeah, i smell a mac cultist at this point; i need sleep, have fun kids
12:07 < ElDiabolo> Is there something like pulseaudio-dlna for video? Something which gives me an additional screen that is actually a dlna stream to my tv.
12:07 < nemanjan00> I use HTC Desire 526g and have no plans to upgrade... I try to use phone as less as possible.. Typing on touchscreen is just terrible...
12:08 < paulcarroty> undefbeh, I use sammy s5 & LOS and don't have any reason to upgrade
12:08 < dgurney> I'm also quite partial to iOS, I just like it more
12:08 < dgurney> sue me!
12:08 < undefbeh> LOS ignore the whole security aspect lol
12:08 < SuperSeriousCat> No need to upgrade phones anymore. Old ones are powerful enough for everything. Just find one that got the screen size you prefer
12:08 < undefbeh> you can even confirm it from google android security developer
12:09 < paulcarroty> undefbeh, lol, got the goodle patches every month
12:09 < undefbeh> even reddit app is better on iOS :D
12:09 < paulcarroty> iOS feels like prison
12:09 < paulcarroty> for peoples from Linux&Windows
12:09 < undefbeh> if prison is more luxurious than your home then why not live in prison instead?
12:09 < SuperSeriousCat> Never use an app for a website. They are only made to capture all the personal info they can
12:10 < paulcarroty> totally limitations
12:10 < nemanjan00> paulcarroty: rooting iOS is litteraly called jailbreak
12:10 < ElDiabolo> undefbeh, Freedom? I can leave home :-)
12:10 < paulcarroty> nemanjan00, I know about it. How much latest versions of iOS is supported? :)
12:11 < nemanjan00> paulcarroty: I have no idea, I do not use it... I just commented on your statement that using iOS is like prison... It is prison, rooting it is called jailbreaking.. :D
12:11 < dgurney> the most recent version cannot be jailbroken with publicly available tools
12:11 < SuperSeriousCat> Be glad someone like iOS. It keep the competition alive and help things develop quicker
12:12 < undefbeh> iOS is the most secure OS for phones atm
12:12 < undefbeh> say whatever you want. cant disagree with the fact
12:12 < SuperSeriousCat> Android is secure if you dont install crap
12:12 < dgurney> but meh, if you really want to tweak stuff, get an android phone. if you don't, there's nothing wrong with iOS, honestly
12:12 < paulcarroty> nemanjan00, only old versions.
12:12 < undefbeh> heck, unlocking an android phone popped ads for me
12:12 < undefbeh> lol
12:13 < undefbeh> how crappy that android is. its not even rooted
12:13 < paulcarroty> iOS is most secure? LOL. You're heard it on TV?
12:13 < undefbeh> no. from security experts
12:13 < paulcarroty> bullshit
12:14 < paulcarroty> If iOS is super secure, why FBI broke it without apple?
12:14 < undefbeh> find 0 day in iOS. it will pay you way more than 10 0days in android.. coz its difficult
12:14 < undefbeh> :)
12:14 < paulcarroty> why jailbrake exists?
12:14 < nemanjan00> paulcarroty: they store partition header in CPU instead of on disk and they call that security...
12:14 < paulcarroty> so, iOS is not secure.
12:14 < dgurney> nothing is perfectly secure...
12:15 < dgurney> however, some products are more secure than others.
12:15 < undefbeh> yup
12:15 < undefbeh> thats where iOS comes in
12:15 < karthyk> there are jailbreaks still comming out
12:15 < karthyk> so its not that secure
12:15 < nemanjan00> paulcarroty: guess what, you will always find more 0days on opensource software... Know why? It is easier to inspect? Do you prefer being unknowingly voulnerable or being voulnerable and expecting fix?
12:15 < ElDiabolo> Looks like I'm the only one on topic here ...
12:15 < paulcarroty> if jailbrakes works - theresn't "secure" anymore
12:15 < karthyk> yes
12:16 < karthyk> people always find a way
12:16 < paulcarroty> peoples seems like don't understood the difference between root and jailbrake
12:17 < karthyk> a jailbreak is to get root
12:17 < dgurney> unless there's a bootrom exploit, pretty much anything that leads to jailbreak (and by extension other malicious potential) is patched soon anyway
12:17 < undefbeh> define the process of jailbreak
12:17 < karthyk> and read write access to the whole memory space
12:17 < undefbeh> dgurney: yup.
12:17 < paulcarroty> nemanjan00, security through obscurity - google why it sucks
12:17 < undefbeh> apple patches quickly
12:17 < karthyk> what is obsecurity
12:18 < karthyk> who care if they patch it jailbreaks never stop comming
12:18 < karthyk> some smart ass out there will find a way
12:27 < BluesKaj> Howdy folks
12:27 < dgurney> hi
12:32 < nemanjan00> BluesKaj: You are from Balkan?
12:33 < BluesKaj> nemanjan00, no, Canada
12:33 < nemanjan00> BluesKaj: nvm then, your nickname has interesting meaning in Croatian, but I can not explain it that easy...
12:35 < BluesKaj> Kaj is a Scandinavian name, where my family is from.
12:35 < nemanjan00> Kaj also means what in Croatian
12:35 < SuperSeriousCat> Kaj is Swedish. Norwegian version is Kai
12:39 < dgurney> Kai is also the Finnish version
12:40 < BluesKaj> dgurney, I'm a swedish finn like Linus,
12:40 < dgurney> neat
12:40 < dgurney> I'm just a boring finnish one
12:40 < SuperSeriousCat> Danish would probably be something like Kæj. But you got to imagine it spoken by a man with an apple down his throat
12:41 < dgurney> though a lot of my family is from england
12:42 < mawk> when purging docker from ubuntu:
12:42 < mawk> Nuking /var/lib/docker ...
12:42 < mawk>   (if this is wrong, press Ctrl+C NOW!)
12:42 < mawk> but ctrl-c doesn't do anything
12:42 < mawk> lol
12:43 < tunekey> https://0bin.net/paste/wR3OpN3l2ZPDwV+P#EH+rx6S33Uk0+CY7VaL1WRUfWvKYDjBz+l4T-2UIq69
12:43 < tunekey> this isn't working for me: alias shred="shred -fuz" alias rm="shred -fuz"
12:43 < tunekey> in bashrc
12:44 < tunekey> is there any problem here? each of these is on its own line
12:45 < RayTracer> tunekey: maybe try with full path to shred in the alias to avoid ambiguities
12:47 < RayTracer> tunekey: and you may want to do user aliases in the user's ~/.bashrc to not confuse the rest of the system
12:47 < tunekey> RayTracer, yes i've tried back and fourth from the home bash to the etc one and it doesn't make a difference
12:47 < tunekey> i'll try the full path tho
12:50 < tunekey> alias shred="/usr/bin/shred -fuzr"
12:50 < tunekey> doesn't work either
12:51 < RayTracer> what's the error messag / output / behaviour you observe?
12:51 < RayTracer> "doesn't work" is always a bad place to start from
12:53 < RayTracer> also, check "alias" output if the aliases in the resulting shell are really what you expect, more rc files might redefine or tweak it (eg. rm -> rm -i)
12:57 < tunekey> hm it wasn't saving any changes unless i closed all terminal windows
12:58 < mawk> yeah
12:58 < mawk> it doesn't reload on the fly
12:58 < mawk> you need to source ~/.bashrc for that
12:58 < tunekey> ok it works now thanks RayTracer
12:58 < tunekey> mawk, oh ok
12:58 < mawk> you could also use alias rm='command shred foo bar' to use the real shred
12:58 < mawk> if the absolute path may change or whatever
12:59 < tunekey> ok
13:04 < talx> where all the rules of iptables are being saveD?
13:05 < mawk> nowhere
13:05 < GNU\colossus> that's distribution-specific
13:05 < mawk> they're not saved
13:05 < GNU\colossus> (if they are, at all)
13:05 < mawk> unless you've got some tooling to do it but it's not iptables that do it
13:06 < ElDiabolo> talx, You can however dump the currently used rules.
13:06 < talx> how >
13:07 < RayTracer> it's eg. /etc/sysconfig/iptables on fedora
13:07 < RayTracer> see/save using iptables-save
13:08 < GNU\colossus> if you're on Debian, you can install the "iptables-persistent" package
13:08 < RayTracer> (I shall note that fedora usually uses firewalld by default, which is configured differently)
13:27 < funksh0n> Hi all.
13:27 < Pentode> hi
13:39 < stevendale> Hey
13:41 < Bigsista> hi. short supid question: is $DISPLAY for local x-session on e.g. tty7 _always_ :0?
13:41 < azarus> Bigsista: nope
13:42 < azarus> you can have multiple x seesions runnin
13:42 < azarus> running*
13:42 < djph> I think the "default" is ":0" ... but if you've got multiple sessions, they'll be like ":10", ":20", etc.
13:42 < hexnewbie> Bigsista: The first (and only) one is usually :0, and you could even rely on that being fixed to :0 in the past, but with user switching DMs and what not there's no guarantee it will be.
13:43 < Bigsista> assuming system boots into x and there are no vnc sessions or similar
13:44 < Bigsista> ...also assuming there is no kind of user swithcing in local x
13:44 < mawk> it's :0 most of the time
13:44 < mawk> indeed
13:44 < mawk> but not always
13:44 < mawk> why do you ask ?
13:45 < Bigsista> i'm working on a udev/systemd locker that locks local x-session if any input is plugged in
13:45 < mawk> if you know that you're on a /dev/ttyN you can pretty much assume that DISPLAY=:0 I think
13:45 < mawk> but you have better ways of finding out I'm sure
13:46 < mawk> you can maybe look up who is operating on /dev/tty7 at the moment
13:46 < hexnewbie> Bigsista: Very unreliable if it relies on hardcoded :0
13:46 < Bigsista> of course i need to determine $DISPLAY and the user running it when locking the screen from systemd
13:47 < Bigsista> atm playing around w/ vnc and getting multiple displays on my script
13:47 < hexnewbie> Actually, probably very unrealiable all around. It would be much better to filter out input devices in some manner.
13:47 < stevendale> Hey :)
13:48 < Bigsista> hexnewbie: of course we sometimes need a way to use input devices when maintaining that kiosk box
13:49 < hexnewbie> Bigsista: Yeah, so filter them out.
13:49 < hexnewbie> some of the potential BadUSB mitigations may come in handy, depending on details of your specific use case.
13:50 < Bigsista> hexnewbie: if i only filtered them, there would be no way to ever use them under any circumstances as there's no sshd running
13:50 < blaztek> hi stevendale
13:50 < stevendale> o/ blaztek
13:50 < stevendale> OS: 64 bit Windows 7 Ultimate (Version 6.1 Build 7601) Service Pack 1, CPU: 4 x Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3340M CPU @ 2.70GHz @ 2691 MHz 512 KB Cache, MEM: 3997 MB, 50% (1950 MB) free, DISKS: total 355 GB - 305 GB free, GFX: Intel(R) HD Graphics 4000 1760 MB, SCREEN: Generic PnP Monitor, 1366 x 768 @ 32 bit, 60 Hz, AUDIO: IDT High Definition Audio CODEC, UPTIME: 0 d, 0 h, 45 m
13:51 < hexnewbie> Bigsista: filter, noun: Electronics or software that separates unwanted signals (for example noise) from wanted signals or that attenuates selected frequencies.
13:52 < junka> stevendale; nice machine
13:52 < hexnewbie> Bigsista: If you *disable* them, you wouldn't be able to use them under any circumstances. If you filter out bad input devices that you don't want, leaving input devices that you'd want, you'd be able to admin your machine just fine.
13:52 < hexnewbie> Bigsista: Or just run sshd :)
13:52 < stevendale> junka: Wish it had more RAM, thanks tho :P
13:52 < stevendale> I get buy
13:52 < stevendale> *by
13:53 < stevendale> It plays EVE Online & StarCraft II, I am happy c:
13:54 < djph> ... you, play eve? ha, you're probably one of the bads that think you should be safe afk-mining in hisec.
13:54 < stevendale> djph, Nah... My Procurer has 50 mil ISK invested in defences
13:54 < Bigsista> hexnewbie: that's the point. in regular operation any kind of usb input is considered as unwanted. only if maintenance takes place onsite ther must be a way to use input devices
13:55 < djph> 50m? peasant.
13:55 < stevendale> It's a mining barge, they're pretty cheap
13:56 < djph> I'd also make fun of you for the procurer .. but they changed the barges shortly after I stopped playing ... was a dumb-as-hell change too.
13:56 < djph> but anyway, way the hell offtopic here
13:57 < talx> lo folks
13:57 < stevendale> Hi talx
13:57 < talx> whats the name of the distro microsoft is going to publish
13:57 < hexnewbie> Bigsista: Perhaps this will help https://github.com/USBGuard/usbguard
13:57 < talx> :p
13:58 < stevendale> Would you like fries with that talx
13:58 < talx> lol
13:58 < talx> I usually avoid food that contains oil
13:58 < talx> :p
13:58 < talx> if you make it in the oven I'm gonna take it for sure tho
13:58 < talx> though*
13:59 < mawk> Bigsista: you know for sure it will be /dev/tty7 ?
13:59 < RayTracer> Bigsista: how about "loginctl lock-sessions"?
13:59 < stevendale> What if it's McDonalds that was frozen for a month then rethermalized in an oven talx ;)
13:59 < Bigsista> hexnewbie: thanks, mate. i already implemented the whole thing. only question left was if i can assume that local x-console will be the first in my list doing: for PID_XSESSION in $(pgrep -f "/usr/bin/lxsession"); do strings /proc/${PID_XSESSION}/environ; done
14:00 < talx> lol
14:00 < Bigsista> ..and :10 or higher presumably will be some kind of non-local tty x-session
14:00 < talx> I'm not sure I'll eat that
14:00 < talx> will taste one if you give it to me now
14:00 < talx> lol
14:01 < talx> soooo
14:01 < talx> do you guys remember the name of the distro microsoft is working on ?
14:01 < talx> google doesn't give me anything
14:01 < Bigsista> whoops missed the grep when pasting: for PID_XSESSION in $(pgrep -f "/usr/bin/lxsession"); do strings /proc/${PID_XSESSION}/environ | grep "^DISPLAY" ; done
14:01 < stevendale> hi talx
14:01 < hexnewbie> McDonalds contain no organic material, so you can safely eat them after years, frozen or not (disclaimer; that's a bad joke, not serious dietary advise)
14:01 < hodapp> talx: http://mslinux.org/
14:01 < stevendale> Why don't we just put preservatives in people so they don't look old
14:01 < stevendale> o3o
14:02 < hexnewbie> advice or whatever
14:02 < talx> I haven't eat in Mcdonalds in years to be honest
14:02 < hexnewbie> Bigsista: /proc/$pid/environ is separated by '\0' if I recall correctly, so you might have a better luck with grep -Z (test before trusting me)
14:03 < mawk> he used strings hexnewbie
14:03 < mawk> to account for that
14:03 < mawk> it should be correct that way
14:03 < hexnewbie> Ah, right.
14:03 < stevendale> Last time I went to Maccas... I ordered a chicken burger, I got it, took the chicken breast out, ate it, drove round and complained it had no chicken in it
14:03 < talx> hodapp: you are sure its mslinux because I do remember something else
14:03 < stevendale> They gave me another one for free
14:03 < talx> I don't thing they released it yet and the site says MS Linux: Shipping in November 2003
14:03 < hexnewbie> Bigsista: Also all X sessions are probably in /tmp/.X11-unix/ anyway :)
14:04 < hexnewbie> Ah, that old sexy design of Microsoft's official web site.
14:05 < djph> talx: you talking about the "WSL" garbage that they stuck in Win10?
14:05 < stevendale> In 100 years everybody reading this will be dead
14:05 < stevendale> o/
14:05 < Bigsista> hexnewbie: i know, but i need DISPLAY uid uname to fire up slock, i3lock, xscreensaver on usb connect
14:06 < djph> wha?
14:07 < Bigsista> well thanks guys for the moment i'll assume that my local display will be the first in my pgrep result list whatever number it gets
14:07 < talx> djph
14:07 < talx> djph: no mate
14:07 < talx> I've read few days ago microsoft is about the release a new linux distro
14:08 < djph> meh, it's going to be typical MSFT drek.
14:09 < Bigsista> azure sphere?
14:10 < revel> It's some IoT thing and bound to specific hardware, so...
14:10 < CoJaBo> so, I have a crash that's not logged by netconsole, and isn't affected by any of the panic-reboot type things, and the system ignores nmi-watchdog; is there anything I can do at this point beyond blindly replacing parts?
14:10 < hexnewbie> They have an Android phone too, I'm sure they have in-house Linux distros, and I'm surprised Sphere is the only distro they have (I thought they were planning a regular server distro for  Azure, I checked this now I was wrong)
14:11 < CoJaBo> the system just freezes completely, no response to keypress, and nothing written to screen, doesn't respond to ping, etc
14:11 < stevendale> I am going to sleep
14:11 < stevendale> Goodnight
14:11 < stevendale> <3
14:12 < funksh0n> Hi all.
14:13 < funksh0n> I've been having some unexpected output when I connect to my vpn using openvpn - i3bar shows incorrect information https://ptpb.pw/veIR.png
14:14 < junka> i'm sorry for your unexpected output
14:14 < hexnewbie> funksh0n: What would be incorrect information, and what would be the correct one?
14:15 < revel> VPN: no | VPN: yes
14:15 < revel> :D
14:15 < funksh0n> it's showing an ethernet address, and not detecting the run_watch
14:16 < CoJaBo> is this likely to be an amd/ryzen issue? would it be worth replacing the system with xeon or something? :/
14:17 < revel> CoJaBo: What kernel version do you have? I think you may want a newer one for Ryzen.
14:17 < funksh0n> Seems that /var/run does not contain vpnc, what could I use instead?
14:17 < revel> It's a possibility, at least.
14:18 < funksh0n> and I assume the ethernet address is showing up because of the way openvpn works, creating some sort of virtual adapter?
14:18 < CoJaBo> revel: it's ubuntu 18.04, so whatever that runs
14:18 < CoJaBo> revel: is linux known to be unstable on ryzen?
14:18 < junka> must be 4.15
14:18 < revel> I think so.
14:18 < junka> I think so too
14:19 < junka> try 4.16
14:19 < CoJaBo> is there anything else I can try? it's far too late to return the cpu and mobo, so replacing those, especially with intel, is going to be considerably expensive
14:20 < CoJaBo> 4.16 would exclude the possibility of running ubuntu, which I don't want to do at this point
14:20 < revel> CoJaBo: Does this apply? https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Ryzen#Random_reboots_with_mce_events
14:20 < junka> CoJaBo; i think canonical offers a bunch of kernels somewhere
14:20 < CoJaBo> exact version its running is 4.15.0-15-generic
14:21 < junka> let me look it up
14:22 < CoJaBo> revel: I'll try adding the cstate thing next reboot, but it's not a reboot issue and nothing is being logged to console; at the time of the crash there is no screen output, and there is no netconsole output
14:22 < junka> CoJaBo; you definitely need a mainline kernel in my opinion, here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/MainlineBuilds
14:22 < revel> And nothing in dmesg after reboot either?
14:22 < revel> Well, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
14:23 < CoJaBo> revel: what would i be looking for in dmesg after a reboot?
14:23 < revel> Something like what's in the link I provided, I assume.
14:23 < revel> i.e `dmesg | grep "Hardware Error"`
14:24 < revel> Though if it's not a reboot, then it could be something else entirely.
14:25 < CoJaBo> I'd previously grepped for "error" and "watchdog", and none of the lines in that wikipage came up
14:26 < CoJaBo> it's defiitely never rebooting on crashes (even with reboot-on-panic set), and it's never generating errors on crashes
14:26 < revel> They're capitalized, so unless you passed -i, they wouldn't show up.
14:26 < CoJaBo> I did -i
14:26 < revel> Since "error" != "Error"
14:26 < revel> Oh, okay.
14:27 < CoJaBo> dmesg | grep -iP 'nmi|watch|error'
14:27 < CoJaBo> No relevent hits in that
14:29 < Gurkenglas> Many tools print complete paths which may include identifying information. I don't have root. What can I do, beyond running search-replace before pasting outputs?
14:31 < mawk> state precisely *what you want
14:31 < CoJaBo> revel: what should i start replacing first then?
14:31 < revel> Not sure.
14:33 < Gurkenglas> mawk, ideally nothing I run knows the name that ~ resolves to.
14:33 < CoJaBo> What would be causing nmi-watchdog to fail? it doesn't work when set to either 1 or 2; is this not supported on ryzen or amd or something?
14:34 < mawk> last time I had to do that I did search and replace Gurkenglas
14:34 < mawk> but it's not enough sometimes
14:34 < mawk> for instance if the path is /home/bar/../foo/stuff
14:34 < mawk> and you replace /home/foo by ~
14:39 < Gurkenglas> I could write a script that I run on logs before pasting, but I might miss something, so perhaps there's a time-tested tool my google-fu is not strong enough for.
14:39 < CoJaBo> Is there any chance a bootable memory-dump tool would be of any use, or is this just likely to be a waste of time?
14:40 < FXpro> does anyone use kali linux?
14:42 < mawk> Gurkenglas: you could run the tools in a dedicated directory instead of a sensitive home directory
14:43 < mawk> but you're not root, it's a problem
14:43 < Gurkenglas> Can I actually keep all knowledge of ~'s true name out of all within ~?
14:44 < Gurkenglas> Such as making pwd return ~ at the correct place.
14:44 < mawk> pwd is an intern thing of bash
14:44 < mawk> for other applications no you can't
14:44 < mawk> but you can do what I said
14:44 < mawk> which requires root
14:44 < revel> /bin/pwd also exists.
14:45 < mawk> yeah it's even worse with that one
14:50 < mawk> can't you containerize the applications you want to isolate Gurkenglas ?
14:50 < mawk> or at least cook up something
14:52 < Gurkenglas> Run it all in a VM, you mean? What time/space penalties does this incur?
14:59 < cluelessperson> I was hoping someone could help me out
14:59 < cluelessperson> when booting debian, I get dropped to initramfs
14:59 < cluelessperson> "Alert /dev/sdb2 does not exist. Dropping to shell"
14:59 < cluelessperson> cat proc/cmdline   shows
14:59 < cluelessperson> BOOT_IMAGE=stuff root=/dev/sdb2 ro quiet
14:59 < cluelessperson> how do I correct this to UUID?
15:03 < revel> Run `blkid` to figure out the UUID and add something like root=UUID=dbccd1d6-whatever to the GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX part in /etc/default/grub, then run `grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg`
15:03 < revel> May be different for UEFI.
15:03 < cluelessperson> revel: how do I do that from initramfs ?   blkid works, but I can't edit anything it seems from initramfs
15:04 < cluelessperson> revel: Also, I don't understand wht the thing is set to /dev/sdb2
15:04 < cluelessperson> grub menu parameters are set to UUID
15:04 < revel> Boot from a livecd or liveusb.
15:04 < cluelessperson> oh wait
15:04 < revel> And blkid will tell you the UUID for the partition.
15:04 < cluelessperson> so, I hit 'e' at grub menu
15:04 < junka> hello cluelessperson
15:04 < junka> sup
15:04 < cluelessperson> I'm not sure if it uses uuid, but it has a line
15:05 < cluelessperson> linux /boot/vmlinuz-stuff root=/dev/sdb2
15:05 < revel> cluelessperson: If you hit e and edit it in the grub menu, then it won't persist.
15:05 < revel> You'd have to edit it at every boot.
15:05 < cluelessperson> junka: I'm getting frustrated and upset at the terrible state of packaging and bootloaders in linux
15:05 < cluelessperson> it seems that a lot of things just suck and everyone deals with it
15:05 < revel> Well, no, most installers do that stuff for you.
15:06 < cluelessperson> revel: I'm going to edit it now to /dev/sda2, boot, and try to correct it from the OS
15:06 < cluelessperson> revel: and that's how I'm in this mess now
15:06 < revel> What did you try to install then?
15:06 < cluelessperson> revel: debian, basic iso, from a USB disk onto SSD
15:06 < junka> debian
15:07 < revel> And did you try to install the distro to an USB drive, but stick the GRUB on the hard drive...?
15:07 < junka> yeah i had the same problem
15:07 < cluelessperson> revel: Apparently the USB disk was /dev/sda and the SSD was /dev/sdb  now that I took the USB disk out, the SSD is the /dev/sda, so grub is pointing to a missing index
15:07 < junka> yes its a bug
15:07 < revel> Hmm, wouldn't have expected that from Debian.
15:07 < cluelessperson> revel: installed to hard drive
15:07 < cluelessperson> revel: Exactly!
15:07 < cluelessperson> I expect it to use all UUID stuff
15:07 < cluelessperson> this is insane
15:07 < revel> Should've done it with an UUID instead of with just /dev/sdXY
15:07 < cluelessperson> maybe I'm on older hardware and they just revert or something
15:08 < cluelessperson> revel: What's more, it worked perfectly fineon my other server
15:08 < cluelessperson> this server is older
15:08 < junka> cluelessperson; just change b to a or the other way around
15:08 < cluelessperson> done, booted
15:08 < cluelessperson> junka: revel  grub-update ?
15:08 < junka> yes
15:08 < revel> That should work, I think.
15:08 < junka> or grub2-mkconfig
15:09 < revel> Go with grub-update.
15:09 < cluelessperson> lol, there is no update
15:09 < SuperSeriousCat> What do grub-update do? I always use grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cnf
15:10 < revel> It's some Debian script that does that and a bit more, I think.
15:10 < revel> cluelessperson: Well, editing /etc/default/grub could work.
15:10 < junka> ^
15:10 < junka> cluelessperson; try grub2-mkconfig -o /boot/grub2/grub.cfg
15:11 < cluelessperson> junka: only grub by default. heh
15:11 < cluelessperson> installing grub2
15:12 < junka> oh i must have used sid sorrry
15:12 < cluelessperson> junka: you're fine.
15:12 < junka> but stable should have it
15:12 < cluelessperson> junka: How are you?  Haven't seen you for awhile.
15:12 < cluelessperson> don't remember where we last chatted
15:13 < junka> cluelessperson; pretty good, i will join shortly
15:13 < cluelessperson> junka: join what?
15:13 < junka> cluelessperson; hmm i dont remember as well lol
15:14 < junka> where is zolkic
15:18 < junka> maybe you installed lilo?
15:18 < junka> :P
15:20 < z3r0sTr3sS> hi to all
15:23 < jim> hi
15:33 < Lady_Aleena> Hello everyone. Would someone please walk me through uploading a file to a remote server from the command line? FileZilla will not upload the file, and I don't know why.
15:34 < SuperSeriousCat> rsync /path/file user@ip:/path
15:34 < SuperSeriousCat> rsync -aP*
15:35 < Lady_Aleena> SuperSeriousCat, would you please break that down for me? I haven't worked on the command line for probably over a year, so I am very rusty.
15:37 < Lady_Aleena> SuperSeriousCat, for example, do I use the full or relative path?
15:37 < SuperSeriousCat> Whatever you like. rsync need to be installed on both machines
15:37 < Lady_Aleena> Then I am screwed.
15:38 < SuperSeriousCat> scp is about the same command
15:38 < rendar> is that normal that when i launch my script in crontab, environment variables such as USER, HOSTNAME etc, are ot set?! why crontab launches so poorly set environments?
15:38 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: scp will do what you need then: scp file server@servername.com:/path/to/remote/folder
15:38 < Lady_Aleena> So, it looks like I will have to continue to try to get FileZilla to upload the file.
15:38 < rypervenche> rendar: Yes, it is normal.
15:38 < rendar> rypervenche: ok, why?
15:39 < rypervenche> rendar: Because the environment variables set by cron are not the same as they are when set by your shell's configuration files. You can set them to be the same way though.
15:39 < Lady_Aleena> SuperSeriousCat and rypervenche, it is unlikely scp is on the remote server.
15:39 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: If ssh is on the server then so is scp.
15:39 < rypervenche> scp is part of the openssh package.
15:39 < rendar> rypervenche: i have noticed that, i'm asking the reason behind that! why is that?
15:40 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: sftp and scp will work for you. sftp is more interactive, whereas scp you need to know the file you want to send beforehand.
15:40 < rypervenche> rendar: Less is more. It's better to be explicit. You should be using full paths to binaries in your cron jobs. If you need more environment variables than that, then add them.
15:41 < Lady_Aleena> rypervenche, the remote server uses cPanel, which sucks.
15:41 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: With cPanel you are allowed to enable SSH access (which also allows scp and sftp). You often have to request the SSH access from your provider or enable it in your cPanel panel.
15:41 < rendar> rypervenche: less is more but now i can't run my script, in my case less is f.!@# less! :)
15:42 < rypervenche> rendar: What part of your environment is needed that is ruining your cron jobs?
15:42 < rendar> rypervenche: how i can add USER and HOSTNAME to a crontab script then?
15:42 < rendar> USER and HOSTNAME
15:44 < rypervenche> rendar: You can change the shell that it uses to /bin/bash and have it source your profile file.
15:44 < rypervenche> rendar: There are many posts like this out there outlining different ways of doing this: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/27289/how-can-i-run-a-cron-command-with-existing-environmental-variables
15:44 < rendar> rypervenche: how i can change it:
15:44 < rendar> ?
15:44 < rendar> uhm, ok
15:45 < Lady_Aleena> There was a time I was almost comfortable working from the command line.
15:45 < rypervenche> rendar: There's not one single way of doing this. Different ways. :)
15:45 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: It's easy enough and we can help you. Can you currently SSH into your account?
15:45 < rendar> rypervenche: what about 'bash <my_script>' to the crontab line?
15:46 < Lady_Aleena> rypervenche, yes.
15:46 < rypervenche> rendar: That's not the problem. It's the environment variables. If you run a cron job that does "env > /tmp/env_cron" and then as your normal user type "env > /tmp/env_user" and compare the two files, you'll see justhow different the environment variables are.
15:47 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: Then you already have SSH access :) So you can do this. sftp might be better for you then. Try using "sftp" instead of "ssh" for your normal SSH command (if you use -p change it to -P instead)
15:48 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: For example: instead of ssh -p 2222 user123@server.com, do sftp -P 2222 user123@server.com
15:50 < Lady_Aleena> rypervenche, um, why would I need to the -p or -P and the number?
15:50 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: Only if you normally use that. If you don't, then don't use it.
15:50 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: Some people use non-standard SSH ports. :)
15:51 < rypervenche> Like a lot of cPanel hosters.
15:52 < markasoftware> And anybody who doesn't want their server to be essentially ddosed by Chinese brute force bots
15:53 < Lady_Aleena> rypervenche, thanks for the help, but this is a lot of work for fixing a one letter typo. I got lazy and edited from the browser.
15:54 < rypervenche> markasoftware: ^ So many people are against this saying that it's "security by obscurity", but it's a good idea in addition to other security measures. At least in my opinion.
15:54 < markasoftware> I prefer the term "defense in depth" :)
15:54 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: Oh, I didn't know that that was your goal. You could have logged in and used nano to edit the file.
15:54 < iodev> rypervenche I agree
15:55 < iodev> security by obscurity kinda works, not totally
15:55 < iodev> it's not a replacement for good design, but an addition
15:55 < rypervenche> It's another layer of security added onto your other layers.
15:55 < rypervenche> Having thousands of less people hitting my SSH daemon per day or hour is a good thing.
15:55 < Lady_Aleena> rypervenche, I don't think they have nano, which also sucks. Their set up drives me crazy.
15:55 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: They should have vi or vim or nano.
15:56 < rypervenche> Or pico even.
15:56 < Lady_Aleena> rypervenche, the webhost has almost nothing helpful from the command line.
15:57 < Lady_Aleena> rypervenche, I think they want their users to use the browser based interface and not the command line.
15:57 < Lady_Aleena> I wish they would have just used apache instead of cPanel.
15:57 < Lady_Aleena> And I can't type today or think clearly.
16:00 < triceratux> hrm dns server 10.0.2.3 is a qemu thing. guess ive got some distros to boot on the metal if i want to complete my systemd-resolved audit
16:02 < triceratux> http://pastebin.centos.org/699681/raw/
16:02 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: Its all right. My sentence about "thousands" was poor English too. :D I'm sure they are used to dealing with non-technical people, so the command line isn't great.
16:06 < BluesKaj> there's nothing really technical about the terminal, it's just learning a few basic commands that help you speed things up instead of clicking the mouse on a gui , which is much less efficient
16:06 < Lady_Aleena> Well, I will get out of everyone's hair now. Thanks for trying. Have a nice day.
16:08 < rypervenche> Lady_Aleena: I'd be curious to know which hosting provider this is, if it's not too personal.
16:08 < Lady_Aleena> xecu.net
16:21 < triceratux> ah i had all the onthemetal reports stored locally already. all better http://pastebin.centos.org/699801/raw/ looks like the convention is dns is on 192.168.1.1 except when it isnt meaning its ubuntu preparing to break things over systemd
16:22 < triceratux> til
16:45 < funksh0n> Hi all.
16:46 < funksh0n> Anyone know why dmenu_run doesn't run things from my local bin folder /home/user/bin?  It's in my $PATH, and rofi was fine with running them.
16:48 < ananke> funksh0n: well, what happens when you open up a shell and run 'dmenu_run'?
16:51 < SuperSeriousCat> Is it possible to just plug in a new HDD without rebooting?
16:52 < hdparm> it is but not recommended
16:52 < funksh0n> ananke: it runs dmenu...
16:53 < SuperSeriousCat> Why is it not recommended?
16:54 < funksh0n> although it doesn't load the config (default colours)
16:54 < hdparm> it is possible that it is gonna be corrupted
16:55 < jim> by "without rebooting", would the power be on?
16:55 < hdparm> hot swapping hard disks can only be done in proper server boxes
16:55 < TheWild> hello
16:55 < jim> hi
16:55 < funksh0n> hey
16:56 < TheWild> oh s**t. How to recover (or re-reference) an accidentally removed file to which there's still an open file descriptor?
16:57 < jim> I guess you can try closing the file, maybe it would come back? (note, I don't know for sure, so this would be a risk)
16:57 < triceratux> https://doc.turris.cz/doc/en/howto/dns
16:58 < triceratux> "its"
16:58 < ananke> SuperSeriousCat: depends on the drive & controller technology. sata2 is hot pluggable for example
16:58 < Sveta2> TheWild: https://stackpointer.io/unix/linux-recover-deleted-files-still-open/480/
16:58 < TheWild> jim: nooo!
16:59 < jim> TheWild, look at Sveta2's link
16:59 < TheWild> yup, I'm reading. Thanks Sveta2
16:59 < SporkWitch> TheWild, jim: deleting a file does not delete the contents on disk, only the entry in the FAT.  Any undelete tool will almost certainly work, though you should hurry.  https://lmgtfy.com/?q=undelete+linux
17:04 < CoJaBo> so, I'm getting the impression that netconsole is very unreliable
17:05 < TheWild> I got an inode number, chances that I can bring the reference back to filesystem?
17:07 < funksh0n> hard link?
17:10 < TheWild> yup
17:10 < TheWild> I did 'man ln' but there's nowhere inode word
17:11 < pennTeller> Isn't it unfair that the  guy who started it all Stallman is marked as a mad man, while the oen who takes all the credit and is actually bringing microsoft into the whole thing (Linus) is praised as a god?
17:11 < pnbeast> Okay, everyone, our next sacrifice to god-king Torvalds is clearly pennTeller.  Get him!
17:11 < pennTeller> lol
17:12 < pennTeller> I just fear that Torvalds is a little too "corporate friendly"
17:13 < pennTeller> and that the future of Linux is bleek under him
17:13 < dgurney> what the heck are you on about
17:13 < pnbeast> Well, then, you probably want to join the hurd channel and give up trolling, here.
17:13 < pennTeller> come on man I am not trolling
17:14 < pennTeller> this is probably on the back of many people's heads isn't it?
17:14 < dgurney> not really, because what you're saying is nonsense
17:14 < pnbeast> Yes, I've polled the channel and 78.2% of the participants say they spend all day thinking about this.  You truly have your finger on the pulse of the user.
17:15 < jim> you just need a couple mirrors to find out
17:15 < funksh0n> who marks Stallman as a madman?  How is Linus 'too corporate' when he still writes kernel patches used by foss OSes?
17:15 < pennTeller> you think microsoft being in the linux foundation board of directors is normal?
17:15 < dgurney> yes, it is
17:15 < funksh0n> Stallman is well respected despite eating his own feet cheese in public forums.
17:15 < pennTeller> hahahahhaha
17:16 < pennTeller> dgurney, well if you do, then you do
17:16 < pennTeller> I personally see no reason for microsoft to have Linux's future as a priority
17:16 < pennTeller> since it's direct competition to their OS
17:18 < funksh0n> EEE, but either way the Linux Foundation has over 1000 corporate members...
17:18 < dgurney> when will this EEE nonsense stop -.-
17:19 < pennTeller> you see it happening don't you?
17:19 < pennTeller> MS even has the new Azure Sphere 100% Linux bases OS coming out
17:19 < dgurney> there is no plausible way to EEE Linux even if you want to believe that
17:19 < pennTeller> oh but you can only program for it in Visual Studio lol
17:19 < dgurney> yes, they're using Linux for their own needs
17:20 < triceratux> pennTeller: if linus were corporatist friendly hed run ubuntu. but he cant even install debian
17:20 < pennTeller> dgurney, thank to all the blobs that Linux has already, it can quickly be extinguished. All that needs to happen is for the corporations to have a meeting and stop providing drivers.
17:21 < pennTeller> triceratux, that is funny and sadly true at the same time
17:21 < dgurney> here's the thing, there will never be such a meeting
17:21 < dgurney> I'd recommend removing the tin foil hat
17:22 < funksh0n> if they went full muhluminati and stopped providing drivers, there'd be an aweful lot of demand for said drivers for existing infrastructure, so competitors would move in and provide drivers.
17:22 < pennTeller> while I may be slightly more scared about this issue than I should be, you seem to dismiss it as impossible when obviously corporations will do whatever it takes.. every time.
17:22 < konimex> remove the tinfoil hat and wear the redhat instead
17:22 < konimex> heh
17:23 < pennTeller> come on guys
17:23 < dgurney> konimex, but you forget! red hat is a company
17:23 < dgurney> EEEVIL
17:23 < sauvin> pennTeller, who cares?
17:23 < dgurney> see, I even managed to make an unfitting EEE joke
17:23  * SporkWitch smells a stallman worshiper
17:23 < pennTeller> Linux users should care, for sure
17:23 < konimex> calm down about EEE, Linux is GPL2 already
17:23 < dgurney> ^
17:23 < pennTeller> but not gplv3 though
17:24 < pennTeller> so we can get locked out of using liinux via hardware..
17:24 < pennTeller> or is that BS too? lol
17:24 < sauvin> It's BS.
17:24 < dgurney> yes, it pretty much is.
17:24 < pennTeller> no it is not
17:24 < SporkWitch> you could always be locked out via hardware; take a look at any MSFT-branded ARM device
17:25 < pennTeller> well I see where you guys stand on this issue
17:25 < pennTeller> I can respect that
17:25 < pepermuntjes> what distro do you guys recommend?
17:26 < triceratux> swagarch ftw
17:26 < pennTeller> Pure_OS
17:26 < dgurney> I don't recommend distros
17:26 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: query lacks context
17:26 < dgurney> what I recommend instead is having a look at some of the popular ones first, and see which one you like the best
17:26 < konimex> open up distrowatch and click "Random" or something similar
17:26 < konimex> that's my recommendation
17:26 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: also, survey-style questions are typically frowned upon
17:27 < pennTeller> Pure_OS by Purism. Made for privacy and security plus based on Debian.
17:27 < pepermuntjes> what distro do you guys recommend for trolling on irc?
17:27 < aaa_> lol
17:27 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: much better query: TempleOS
17:27 < ananke> pepermuntjes: better than what you're running now, since you're failing miserably
17:27 < pennTeller> xD
17:27 < jim> pepermuntjes, yes, it's true... I've observed you trolling over several days
17:27 < aaa_> i use windows and troll work 50%
17:27 < SporkWitch> ananke: it's pretty obvious he's trying to derail the stallmanite
17:27 < BluesKaj> heh, Windows98
17:28 < triceratux> pepermuntjes: thats a different question. KXQtExTiX of course http://www.extix.se/?p=393
17:28 < triceratux> *LXQtExTiX
17:29 < pennTeller> SporkWitch, Stallmanite lolol... come one man if you don't see anything wrong with the practices of the Linux foundation and how Linus Torvalds refuses to secure the future of the Kernel you are not paying attention.
17:29 < konimex> anyway
17:29 < konimex> >you think microsoft being in the linux foundation board of directors is normal?
17:30 < dgurney> you really need to expand the latter part to have a chance to be taken seriously.
17:30 < konimex> is Ballmer still part of Microsoft?
17:30 < dgurney> no, of course not...
17:30 < funksh0n> How do you do networking on temple SporkWitch ?  Do you just write a plaintext document then pray to God to post it for you?
17:30 < konimex> then it is normal
17:30 < SporkWitch> funksh0n: precisely
17:30 < SporkWitch> funksh0n: they He rewards hard work, so you are encouraged to use sneakernet
17:31 < pennTeller> you are missing the point as to why GNU/Linux exists
17:31 < SporkWitch> s/they/though/
17:31 < funksh0n> perfect
17:31 < SporkWitch> pretty sure the point of why Linux exists was so Linus could be a dick to his professor who was disparaging monolithic kernels lol
17:31 < pennTeller> anyway, I am not trying to convince you guys
17:31 < konimex> look, if Linus "refuses to secure the future of kernel" it's fine, we still have GNU Hurd as the future kernel
17:32 < SporkWitch> konimex: XD
17:32 < pennTeller> konimex, oh good one.
17:32 < jim> or, write a fork of templeos, including the compilers and everything... then fork the fork, and pile each fork on top of the other untill you have something high enough to reach god (and if you believe this, chances are you may be pretty high...)
17:32 < pepermuntjes> there used to be a debian release with herd kernel
17:32 < pennTeller> pepermuntjes, there still is
17:32 < pennTeller> its version 0.9 though
17:33 < funksh0n> Anyone know why dmenu_run doesn't respect my $PATH?  rofi will happily execute scripts in ~/bin but dmenu_run does not.
17:33 < jim> dunno how fast herd is
17:33 < SporkWitch> funksh0n: sudo involved? think sudo will use root's $PATH
17:33 < dgurney> i've heard it has acceptable performance
17:33 < pepermuntjes> except no usb support
17:33 < funksh0n> SporkWitch: not as far as I'm aware
17:33 < dgurney> but I've never actually tested it because what's the point
17:34 < pennTeller> let's just put some blobs in it xD
17:34 < pennTeller> that fixes everything /s
17:34 < konimex> hell, i don't even know hurd already works on an actual hardware
17:34 < konimex> s/know/know if/
17:34 < pennTeller> I've only managed to get it to work on VM's
17:35 < funksh0n> SporkWitch: you might be onto something
17:38 < pepermuntjes> linus still using fedora as his main driver?
17:39 < dgurney> I wouldn't be surprised if he was
17:40 < BluesKaj> rumour is fedora...don't understand why tho
17:40 < TheWild> No luck bringing the file back having just inode number, maybe it's just simply not possible? It was 4GB file and only 3.2 GB space left. I'm xzing it hoping this will shrink the file enough.
17:40 < konimex> do you expect him to use something like alpine?
17:41 < triceratux> BluesKaj: because the red space hat ipo paid for his house
17:41 < jim> Linux doesn't care about dists, he says they just get in his way...
17:41 < pnbeast> Pretty sure he uses kali.  That's why it was on TV.
17:41 < BluesKaj> triceratux, heh :-)
17:41 < dgurney> lol
17:41 < jim> having said that he might still be using some form of redhat
17:41 < dgurney> I have a friend who uses Kali as his daily distro
17:41 < dgurney> what a fool
17:42 < SporkWitch> dgurney: are you new? we see those all the time lol
17:42 < jim> that's his right
17:42 < BluesKaj> Mr Robot ! kali
17:43 < dgurney> it's his right, but I can still call him foolish for using it... I mean, before I adviced him to do so, he was using the default setup, meaning browsing the internet as root :/
17:43 < TheWild> well, it will take some time. Time to watch the cats in teh internets
17:44 < dgurney> SporkWitch, I've been here for some weeks now
17:44 < jim> dgurney, so, you're calling him foolish for not knowing something you do know
17:45 < dgurney> no, he actually was aware of how dangerous what he was doing is
17:46 < ananke> dgurney: as opposed as doing the same task as regular user? these days it hardly makes a difference
17:47  * triceratux has checked in with DNSSEC & merely has some dnsmasq reading remaining https://blog.apnic.net/2017/12/06/dnssec-deployment-remains-low/
17:47 < jim_chat> I'm looking for a self-hosted RSS reader that caches images at the time the feed is refreshed.  I don't want images (or other smallish media) to be loaded directly from the feed source by my browser.
17:47 < ananke> the whole idea that somehow root is the only target worth protecting is silly and naive, at least when it comes to a typical end-user system such as a desktop or laptop. virtually everything a bad actor would want is available under a single user account
17:48 < TheWild> a propos "dangerous". Few years ago I was developing one web-based service for a customer and was given his old system as a reference. Could you guess what was worse than passwords stored in plaintext?
17:48 < pepermuntjes> no passwords at all
17:48 < TheWild> ~ 90% of the users used the same password.
17:49 < sauvin> What was the password?
17:49 < pnbeast> That's to promote availability, an important watchword in any service.
17:49 < TheWild> Won't tell - sorry.
17:50 < pepermuntjes> Snowden confinced 18 of his co-workers to share their password with him
17:50  * pnbeast starts typing "Won't tell - sorry." into websites.
17:50 < sauvin> I'll tell you MY password, but won't tell you which machine it's on... :D
17:50 < dgurney> sure, everything may be available under a regular account, but using the root account for daily tasks is looking for even further trouble no matter what you do
17:51 < zapotah> what do you mean running arbitrary code pushed from random websites as root is a bad idea?!!
17:52 < dgurney> yeah, shocking I know
17:53 < sauvin> Who'd a thunk it?
17:53 < fendur> unless you got it from a .com site. Then I think it's safe.
17:53 < phogg> unless it's javascript, then apparently we don't care
17:53 < sauvin> I don't. Seriously. I turn javascript off anyway.
17:54 < pepermuntjes> is it bad to run the puppet master as root?
17:55 < pnbeast> I think twitter just started demanding JS.  Now I can't see what popular celebrities and cheetohead are saying.
17:56 < pepermuntjes> twitter/facebook censors free speech
17:56 < acresearch> people, anyone knows the best channel to dicuss and seek assistance in archiving data?  150GB
17:56 < dgurney> yes, and the sky is blue
17:56 < SporkWitch> water is wet
17:56 < SporkWitch> politicians are dishonest
17:56 < d3x0r> water is not wet
17:56 < SporkWitch> trump is god-emperor
17:56 < dgurney> run trump as root
17:57 < acresearch> dgurney: haha
17:57 < pepermuntjes> acresearch, with tar and rsync?
17:57 < phogg> acresearch: what kind of assistance?
17:57 < konimex> pepermuntjes: with dd
17:57 < jim> acresearch, no... but... there is a bot, alis, that can assist you in looking for channels on the Freenode irc net. To start, /msg alis help
17:57 < acresearch> phogg: pepermuntjes i have the data on my local computer, and i need to make a 1 time (double) back,,, but i am having difficulty choosing the best media for long term archiving
17:58 < acresearch> jim: ah ok thanks
17:58 < dgurney> define long-term
17:58 < SporkWitch> acresearch: optical or tape is most resistent to bit rot while in storage, so far as I know
17:58 < phogg> acresearch: a flash drive will work for a few years, tape in cold storage is known to last decades.
17:58 < acresearch> dgurney: 10+ years
17:58 < dgurney> well, tape I guess
17:59 < acresearch> phogg: tape   hmmmm
17:59 < pnbeast> 150GB?  Who gets out of bed for that?  Copy it across three or four drives and make sure you keep some remote and spin them up regularly.
17:59 < SporkWitch> that too lol
17:59 < SporkWitch> for 150GB, just throw it on gdrive lol
17:59 < pepermuntjes> first encrypt it
17:59 < acresearch> pnbeast: this is my current system, double HDD  and i just lost one, for an unknown reason to me,,   just stopped working. it never left my desk
17:59  * SporkWitch does the netsplit boogie
17:59 < acresearch> pnbeast: this is my current system, double HDD  and i just lost one, for an unknown reason to me,,   just stopped working. it never left my desk
18:00 < acresearch> dam
18:00 < phogg> acresearch: If it were me I'd get a couple SSDs and store the data twice. If kept at a controlled temperature there's no reason they shouldn't last a decade.
18:00 < dgurney> well, get more HDDs
18:00 < pnbeast> acresearch, I believe you.  Drives do that, often.  Backups, backups, backups, dude...
18:00 < dgurney> yes, redundancy is extremely important
18:00 < phogg> duplication is the best defense, just ask Aristotle.
18:01 < acresearch> pnbeast: i can't keep getting more HDD,, expensive plus the data is large,   i one a one time solution    archive and forget aboutit
18:01 < SporkWitch> yes, redundancy is extremely important
18:01 < SporkWitch> (had to do it, dgurney :P)
18:01 < pepermuntjes> acresearch, the data is static, and won't change?
18:01 < acresearch> phogg: you are absolutly correct   dgurney      and it saved me this time, i had a double backup and one of them dies
18:01 < acresearch> pepermuntjes: yes
18:01 < pepermuntjes> what is the content of the data?
18:01 < acresearch> pepermuntjes: academic research
18:02 < pnbeast> acresearch, 150GB is not large.  It's 2018.  And if you want to "forget about it", why are you trying to archive it?
18:02 < dgurney> double-backup is quite weak tbh
18:02 < acresearch> pnbeast: mostly molecular simulations and scripts to replicate the work
18:02 < djph> dgurney: better than none
18:02 < pepermuntjes> acresearch, my 70 year old mother has figured a solution for this problem.
18:02 < acresearch> pepermuntjes: beeten by a 70 year old mind :-(
18:02 < dgurney> djph, correct, but if the data is extremely important and needs to stay as-is for 10+ years, it's simply not adequate
18:03 < pepermuntjes> she bought 3 external hd's from different brands, and puts her family pictures/videos on them. One of those drives she puts with my aunt.
18:03 < pnbeast> acresearch, I have bad news for you.  If you "forget" it, it's not archived.  You have to pay some attention if you want to keep it.
18:03 < dgurney> yes, off-site backups are also a very good idea
18:03 < acresearch> pnbeast: what type of attention?
18:03 < dgurney> I mean, archived data is completely useless if it gets destroyed in a fire for instance
18:03 < djph> dgurney: oh, definitely. archive to (offsite) tape
18:03 < acresearch> is ee
18:03 < acresearch> i see
18:04 < dgurney> acresearch, maintenance. you need to make sure from time to time that the data is intact, and that the backup medium still works
18:04 < pnbeast> acresearch, you have to maintain an adequate verification schedule.  Everything goes bad, fails, gets lost, etc.  If you don't verify, then the data are gone.
18:04 < acresearch> dgurney: pnbeast wow   harder than i tought
18:04 < pepermuntjes> is it academic research you want to have availble to all? Or just for yourself?
18:04 < pepermuntjes> if you can make it public, you could make a torrent of it
18:05 < phogg> acresearch: what's your budget?
18:05 < pnbeast> acresearch, in real life, my experience is that your media become obsolete, sometimes because tape drives are too old/slow/low capacity, sometimes because drive formats change and maybe other reasons I'm forgetting.
18:05 < acresearch> phogg: $100-$300 for now? depends on the quiality i get i might increase it
18:06 < acresearch> pepermuntjes: if people are willing to download and store 150GB of raw molecular imulation text files,,, i have not problem with that ;-)    --> for torrents
18:06 < dgurney> for $100-$300 you'll be able to purchase several hard drives for backups
18:06 < acresearch> pnbeast: you are right
18:06 < pnbeast> acresearch, for that, you can get at least two external USB drives and have lots of extra space for other data.
18:06 < acresearch> pnbeast: hmmm
18:06 < pepermuntjes> acresearch, if you upload it to thepiratebay i will snatch it
18:06 < pnbeast> Er, what dgurney said, first.
18:06 < pnbeast> Curse you, dgurney!
18:06 < pepermuntjes> maybe some other people also
18:07 < pepermuntjes> then we have the problem solved without extra resources
18:07 < phogg> acresearch: for such a small amount of data there are over-the-internet backup services which promise a guarantee of the data for a fairly low monthly rate, especially if you don't intend to access it frequently
18:07 < acresearch> well i have a laptop + charger tucked away for future proof the data as much as possible given my capacity
18:07 < acresearch> phogg: hmmmm interesting idea
18:07 < acresearch> you really think my 150GB is considered small?   it takes 3 hours to transfer
18:08 < dgurney> it's not much at all
18:08 < SporkWitch> 150GB is pretty tiny these days lol
18:08 < dgurney> and well, the transfer speed depends heavily on what you're transferring over
18:08 < acresearch> dgurney: i am glad my issue is not considered unique :-)
18:08 < zapotah> hell, zfs will probly be sufficient
18:08 < phogg> acresearch: today 150G is small
18:08 < B8B88B88> 150gb is tiny now?
18:08 < zapotah> it is
18:08 < acresearch> good to know
18:08 < B8B88B88> how so
18:09 < dgurney> B8B88B88, it's not at all uncommon to have terabytes of storage
18:09 < SporkWitch> it's not uncommon to NEED terabytes of storage lol
18:09 < dgurney> it's a very tiny chunk out of a 2TB HDD, for instance
18:09 < pnbeast> Yes, 150GB is tiny, now.  It might be a bowling ball to your USB 2.0 drain pipe, but if you're dealing with a "research computing" environment, it's more on the timeline of seconds to xfer about.
18:09 < B8B88B88> dgurney: how does that make 150GB tiny?
18:09 < dgurney> it's small in this context
18:09 < phogg> acresearch: e.g. see https://aws.amazon.com/glacier/pricing/ where it costs 0.004 USD per gig per month; your 300USD will last for a long time.
18:10 < B8B88B88> of file transfer time?
18:10 < dgurney> a 150GB download is still large, but if you already have 150GB of data archived, it's not much
18:10 < zapotah> B8B88B88: you must refer to everything with dsl speeds
18:10 < pnbeast> B8B88B88, it's tiny because I can transfer it trivially in multiple ways, none requiring more than few moments of work nor time.
18:10 < SporkWitch> because in [current year] your average person has closer to a TiB, at least, of assorted content, never mind when we start including installed software, especially games
18:10 < acresearch> phogg: wow, this is amazing
18:10 < acresearch> phogg: i did not know about this
18:10 < zapotah> B8B88B88: im concerned with 40G transfer speeds and hundreds of terabytes of storage
18:10 < phogg> acresearch: so 72 USD for a decade of storage, not counting cost to upload it (a one time fee)
18:10 < zapotah> B8B88B88: 150gb is tiny
18:11 < B8B88B88> 150g is not tiny
18:11 < zapotah> it is
18:11 < B8B88B88> you are all losing your minds slowly
18:11 < SporkWitch> phogg: that's pretty damn decent, actually
18:11 < zapotah> B8B88B88: you just dont do real ICT
18:11 < dgurney> times change, man
18:11 < ayecee> can't lose what you've never had
18:11 < acresearch> phogg: i think this might be my best solution,,, thank you very much
18:11 < zapotah> ayecee: ++
18:11 < pepermuntjes> you have to download it atleast once to verify the data
18:11 < phogg> acresearch: the risks there are Amazon may go out of business or they might somehow lose your data due to a disaster. Not very probable, but certainly a chance exists. The other problem is that the price may go up over time.
18:11 < B8B88B88> if you said 150gb is below average HDD size for desktops i'd have no issue
18:11 < sauvin> What's ICT?
18:11 < pepermuntjes> computers
18:11 < SporkWitch> B8B88B88: ask me in 1990, and i'll complain about how massive 20MiB is (well, back then MB :P); in 2018? no, 150GiB is not a lot of data
18:12 < phogg> B8B88B88: if you're talking *storage* 150G is tiny.
18:12 < phogg> storage systems today start at multi TB and go way, way up
18:12 < dgurney> to quote myself, <dgurney> a 150GB download is still large, but if you already have 150GB of data archived, it's not much
18:12 < acresearch> phogg: true, but add a double local offline backup might be sufficient to reduce most risk chances right?   i mean i already have the 2x HDDs
18:12 < B8B88B88> it's not really tiny though, you're just used to vast amounts of storage space
18:12 < sauvin> HDs die. Sometimes they die six months after you buy them.
18:12 < zapotah> B8B88B88: youre living in the early 2000s i see
18:12 < phogg> acresearch: yes, and it would be pretty cheap too. One local copy for fast cheap access and the online "cloud" storage for safety.
18:12 < hexnewbie> 150 GB is just the YouTube traffic of your aunt in a week
18:12 < B8B88B88> how much space does your phone or pda have zapotah
18:13 < B8B88B88> if 150GB is so "tiny"
18:13 < SporkWitch> dgurney: even that is SLOWLY changing.  Local fibre startup in my area, i've got 1Gbps down and 100Mbps up w/ a static IP, and averaging 99% of advertised speeds :)
18:13 < acresearch> phogg: thank you very much :-)
18:13 < pnbeast> B8B88B88, maybe you are disadvantaged.  On my home machine, I would care about 150GB.  At work, projects regularly dump experiment results much larger than that on our network.
18:13 < zapotah> B8B88B88: my phone does not store data
18:13 < SporkWitch> phones CACHE data, they are not meant to STORE it
18:13 < zapotah> B8B88B88: my phone _uses_ data stored elsewhere
18:13 < fendur> tiny/large is totally reltive folks. What is the context here?
18:13 < SporkWitch> fendur: archival backup, as in 10+ years lol
18:13 < hexnewbie> Then again, YouTube videos are probably located in a building within a mile of your aunt's location, so that's not really Internet
18:14 < B8B88B88> SporkWitch: lol nice marketting bullet points
18:14 < dgurney> B8B88B88, that's different. we're talking about archival here.
18:14 < zapotah> B8B88B88: my home server has 24TB of storage
18:14 < pnbeast> fendur, we're discussing how much traffic per hour to send to your internet connection to kick you offline.
18:14 < dgurney> my phone is not an archive storage
18:14 < phogg> SporkWitch: My house typically totals over 1TiB/month down. Fiber is a wonderful thing.
18:14 < zapotah> B8B88B88: our DC at work, quite a lot more
18:14 < dgurney> (and for the record, it has 128GB of internal storage)
18:14 < B8B88B88> so it's less than tiny dgurney ?
18:14 < jim_chat> Pepperidge Farm remembers when 150GB was an absolutely insane amount of storage.
18:14 < sauvin> My phone has trouble just storing a couple of pictures.
18:14 < dgurney> yes, but it's my phone
18:14 < B8B88B88> your phone has pathetically sized storage
18:14 < phogg> B8B88B88: phones have disks but phones are not used for storage; neither are home computers.
18:15 < pepermuntjes> someobody mentioned gdrive, how does it compares to dropbox (on a linux system)?
18:15 < zapotah> B8B88B88: you are an idiot of unseen proportions if you compare storage on client devices to actual data storage
18:15 < SporkWitch> phogg: it really is.  i'm hoping to buy some server hardware later this year and move my remote hosting in-house.  i pay 60/mo currently, figure i can knock that down to 5/mo (just a backup SMTP relay) and only drive my electric up by 5 or 10/mo
18:15 < B8B88B88> zapotah: if i'm an idiot you're a fool
18:15 < pnbeast> B8B88B88, he basically just said his *telephone*, not even a normal computer, can hold two thirds of it?  I'd say that implies it's pretty tiny.
18:15 < sauvin> Then, again, my phone takes five minutes to DOWNLOAD a smallish jpeg.
18:15 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: i've never used dropbox much, but gdrive has reasonably good support on linux last i set it up a couple years ago
18:15 < phogg> SporkWitch: I may over 200USD/month for my business fiber connection to my house. It's not cheap but they do *not* bother me on bandwidth or ports.
18:15 < fendur> pnbeast, SporkWitch: it seems like some people are talking about hard drives, and some people are talking about transfers.
18:15 < zapotah> B8B88B88: you must live in a small sandbox indeed :3
18:16 < fendur> and everyone thinks everyone is stupid... weird.
18:16 < B8B88B88> i live in a world where one hundred and fifty billion bytes is not insignificant
18:16 < pnbeast> fendur, don't you have any /sb?  We're talking about acresearch's dataset.
18:16 < hexnewbie> Plus, with the right mix of marketing, mobile data plan, trusted computing, and artificial hardware limitations, I'm sure one can charge you 10 bucks per gigabyte for those 150 GB.
18:16 < dgurney> B8B88B88, context matters here. 150GB of strage is small when you look at it from an archival viewpoint. A phone is not meant for that purpose, therefore in the phone context 128GB is more than adequate.
18:16 < dgurney> I don't know what's so difficult for you about this
18:16 < SporkWitch> fendur: some people are talking from an educated position, one person is being contrary over the assertion that 150GB is tiny by today's standards
18:16 < fendur> pnbeast: yep. and that's what I saw.
18:16 < B8B88B88> because your words are misleading
18:16 < B8B88B88> it's not difficult it makes me sad
18:16 < zapotah> B8B88B88: if an application is 150GB, i say its bullshit and its way too humongous
18:17 < phogg> B8B88B88: Because the question was about storage for 10+ years in that context 150G is indeed a tiny amount.
18:17 < zapotah> B8B88B88: if its data, depending on what kind, its damn near always tiny
18:17 < hexnewbie> Like, a good plan would be if in a year a phone would come with 4-8 TiB storage, yet the manufacturer would charge you per month per gigabyte used.
18:17 < zapotah> B8B88B88: there are very different kinds of storage needs
18:17 < zapotah> B8B88B88: and you fail to distinguish between them
18:17 < kazdax> hello
18:17 < dgurney> hi
18:17 < kazdax> hey
18:18 < kazdax> i finally installed debian on my harddisk
18:18 < dgurney> neat!
18:18 < sauvin> Felicitations!
18:18 < kazdax> now i need to find out my motherboard and about its inbuilt video card
18:18 < pnbeast> kazdax, that's much better than installing it on the toaster oven.
18:18 < B8B88B88> zapotah: i don't care, 150,000,000,000 bytes is not "tiny" amount
18:18 < kazdax> so i can install the right drivers
18:18 < B8B88B88> you are brainwashed if you believe such
18:18 < zapotah> *sigh*
18:18 < sauvin> kazdax, can you run lspci?
18:18 < dgurney> I give up
18:18 < SporkWitch> phogg: like i said, my fibre is a local start-up, so they're literally a dumb pipe, and the CEO is pretty chill (interviewed with him when applying for an internship a few years back).  I pay US$100/mo for 1000/100 and another 10/mo for a static IP.
18:18 < pnbeast> B8B88B88, perhaps you've missed it as history has rolled by.  Good luck!
18:18 < pepermuntjes> 150GB is 3 blu rays
18:19 < B8B88B88> pnbeast: nah i can still count
18:19 < B8B88B88> you guys missed something
18:19 < dgurney> if you use the amount of bytes as an argument instead of considering alternate viewpoints, it's no use arguing further
18:19 < zapotah> pepermuntjes: no one uses optical storage :3
18:19 < hexnewbie> kazdax: You rarely install drivers for hardware, certainly not for motherboard and unnamed integrated video (unless really really new, or integrated NVIDIA)
18:19 < dogbert2> hey zapotah
18:19 < zapotah> B8B88B88: please stop trolling
18:19 < zapotah> dogbert2: o/
18:19 < B8B88B88> stop pinging me then
18:19 < sauvin> How about we drop the 150GB of meaningless peen?
18:19 < zapotah> dogbert2: fancy seeing you here :3
18:19 < hexnewbie> kazdax: In addition to sauvin's request for lspci, what does not work?
18:19 < pnbeast> My peen is *bigger* than 150GB.
18:20 < dogbert2> added D-Link 8 port GigE switch (unmanaged) to wireless router to increase # of ports in network :)
18:20 < luka_33> pphhh only peens bigger than 1TB can post here
18:20 < sauvin> My belly is about 250 TiB, does that count?
18:20 < hexnewbie> 640 KiB ought to be enough for anybody
18:20 < kazdax> well the Resolution isnt at its shaprest
18:20 < kazdax> i looked up driver for raedon 3000
18:20 < SporkWitch> ew ATI >_<
18:20 < B8B88B88> hexnewbie: enough to do what?
18:20 < sauvin> kazdax, what resolution are you at now, do you know?
18:20 < kazdax> and all i get is that ..they dont have the driver for this one
18:21 < SporkWitch> kazdax: ATI linux support is abysmal, mate
18:21 < pepermuntjes> 150 GB can be either large or small, depending of the context. "hey, i have got 150 gb of home written harry potter/ 50 shades  of grey  crossover fanction" that is large.
18:21 < SporkWitch> kazdax: supposedly the stuff that supports radeonsi is good, but that's only going to be fairly new, higher-end stuff
18:21 < dgurney> pepermuntjes, he doesn't care about context :/
18:21 < kazdax> yea
18:21 < pnbeast> There's a movie mash-up I'd watch.
18:21 < kazdax> i have a nividia graphic card
18:21 < kazdax> i could install it
18:22 < kazdax> on my system ..
18:22 < azarus> i have 150 GB of compressed harry potter/50 sog fanfiction XuX
18:22 < sauvin> 50 Shades of Grey... never seen it, but isn't it supposed to be some kind of soft porn? A crossover might be interesting, call it "Harry Does Hermione"...?
18:22 < kazdax> shades of gay might be boring as hell
18:22 < dgurney> sauvin, it basically portrays BDSM stuff from what I understand
18:22 < pnbeast> sauvin, when I said it, it was an amusing IRC joke, when you said it, it was creepy.
18:22 < kazdax> okay if i install the new graphic card
18:22 < SporkWitch> kazdax: 1) don't use newlines as a substitute for punctuation, 2) i would advise doing so, nvidia's linux support is excellent, despite some legitimate criticism like no 3dvision over USB
18:22 < sauvin> pnbeast, :D
18:23 < kazdax> thanks spork and ill keep that in mind
18:23 < sauvin> pnbeast, guessing you don't want to know what cross my mind after that, something involving wands and broomsticks...
18:23 < vlt> Hello. How can I find out why my Xorg screen switches off 10 minutes after I pressed a key? I’m running openbox on Ubuntu.
18:23 < kazdax> DO i just shut down my system and install the card and reboot ?
18:23 < dgurney> it's only excellent if you don't update to a new kernel as soon as it comes out instead of waiting for nvidia :P
18:24 < dogbert2> got power adapters for new switch, Libre Computer, and external USB HDD access on the new power strip...that's plugged into the BackUPS 1300XS
18:24 < SporkWitch> sauvin: it's really a poorly-written and outright dangerous portrayal of a BDSM relationship that is, in actuality, just an abusive relationship mixed with rape fantasy bearing no actual resemblance to actual, healthy, BDSM relationships
18:24 < sauvin> kazdax, just rebooting won't automatically install relevant nvidia drivers.
18:24 < dgurney> indeed, I think you need to enable non-free repos on debian to have them available
18:24 < SporkWitch> sauvin: a much better film for that subject matter would be "Secretary" starring James Spader and Maggie Gylenhal (sp?)
18:24 < sauvin> I'll take your word for it. I don't actually know a flipping thing about BDSM.
18:25 < SporkWitch> sauvin: in short, if the male lead weren't rich and attractive, he'd be up on rape charges
18:25 < SporkWitch> re: 50 shades
18:25 < dgurney> from what I've read the portrayal of BDSM stuff isn't even that good in 50 shades, but this is going wildy offtopic lol
18:25 < sauvin> Oh, yeah, we're "off", each and every one of us.
18:25 < SporkWitch> dgurney: it's not, what's portrayed is outright dangerous
18:25 < blocky> i think the BDSM community was really upset by it
18:25 < dgurney> yeah, I've read so
18:25 < pnbeast> Oh, I trust that /join.  Are we about to be flooded?
18:26 < SporkWitch> pnbeast: there was a netsplit 10 minutes or so ago
18:26 < pepermuntjes> Bible Discussion and Study Meeting
18:27 < dgurney> with a side dish of bdsm
18:27 < pepermuntjes> according to urban dic
18:27  * sauvin fishes out his flagellum and his mortification belt
18:28 < ayecee> it's working. i'm already mortified.
18:29 < dgurney> oh dear
18:29 < phogg> vlt: If it comes back as soon as you hit a key then that's power saving at work. You can change the timing or disable it if you like.
18:29 < dgurney> all these ping timeouts
18:29 < sauvin> From matrix.org. They've been problematic in the past.
18:29 < phogg> dgurney: it's really only one, that [m] is a hint
18:29 < pepermuntjes> just a glitch
18:29 < phogg> pepermuntjes: quiet you!
18:29 < dgurney> well, it's still flood regardless of origin lol
18:29 < sauvin> Big enough honking mutter fracking "glitch".
18:29 < jim_chat> splittastic
18:30 < Dagmar> Use a client that can selectively ignore join/parts
18:30 < phogg> Dagmar: and have it suppress ping timeouts ?
18:30 < Dagmar> Heck I have mine suppressing basically everything in here
18:31 < dgurney> I guess so
18:31 < phogg> I could live with suppressing timeouts, but not joins or parts.
18:31 < sauvin> Dagmar, what client you using?
18:31 < dgurney> I don't supress anything myself, because the information is quite valuable, especially if I'm talking to someone
18:31 < Dagmar> I really don't care to know that there's three to four idiots an hour who don't know better than to use away nicks, for example
18:31 < Dagmar> I'm using BitchX
18:31 < phogg> there aren't that many (not in here)
18:31  * SporkWitch twitch
18:31 < pepermuntjes> Dagmar, watch your language
18:31 < SporkWitch> away nicks...
18:32 < phogg> Dagmar: Really? I haven't seen a bitchx user in years...
18:32 < sauvin> I tend to yell at people when I see that.
18:32 < Dagmar> pepermuntjes: If you have a problem with the word "idiots", complain to your therapist.
18:32 < dgurney> the bitchx guys really chose a great name didn't they?
18:32 < SporkWitch> sauvin: were you here for the kid arguing "how is changing your nick any different from sending a message?!" lol
18:32 < blocky> weechat doesn't show joins/parts
18:32 < phogg> just try changing your nick while in here
18:33 < sauvin> SporkWitch, too many times.
18:33 < sauvin> Weechat shows joins and parts for me.
18:33 < SporkWitch> sauvin: apparently needing to do things like check for conflicts is "a sign of bad design" according to the last one i saw lol
18:33 < phogg> blocky: it shows what you tell it to show
18:34 < phogg> SporkWitch: if you sent a message every time you went afk it would be a problem.
18:34 < phogg> With that said...
18:34 < phogg> afk
18:34 < blocky> phogg: right, i think mine only shows joins/parts if the person has spoken recently
18:34 < SporkWitch> phogg: the point is that changing your nick is NOT simply sending a message, because it has greater overhead and implications
18:34 < Dagmar> Also, there's a bloody away flag built into IRC
18:35 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: only for about 2 decades or so :P
18:35 < Dagmar> SporkWitch: Oh believe me, I know
18:35 < dgurney> Dagmar, careful with those though
18:35 < dgurney> away messages are a thing :/
18:35 < dgurney> as in, ones that tell "I'm away" or something
18:35 < Dagmar> Away messages are a great way to demonstrate one's ignorance
18:36 < pepermuntjes>  what?
18:36 < jim_chat> I'll be sure to say bye before I leave so that you get my part announcement :D
18:36 < Dagmar> There's a flag one can set on ones self specifically to avoid spamming people's screens
18:36 < sauvin> Don't let the door hitcha where the good $deity splitcha!
18:36 < leachim6> hey folks
18:36  * dgurney is away: "Eating dinner"
18:36 < leachim6> how's everyone doing?
18:36 < dgurney> just kidding ofc
18:36 < dgurney> but i've seen stuff like this before
18:36 < sauvin> dgurney, "of course", not "ofc".
18:37 < phogg> and back
18:37 < leachim6> sauvin: ofc *you'd* say that
18:37 < phogg> see how annoying that is?
18:37 < blocky> lol
18:37 < SporkWitch> phogg: NO ONE
18:37 < SporkWitch> phogg: CARES
18:37 < SporkWitch> phogg: THAT YOUR
18:37 < SporkWitch> phogg: BACK
18:37  * sauvin is away * time to drop a load
18:37 < phogg> I care.
18:37 < leachim6> woah
18:37 < leachim6> aggressive
18:37 < hexnewbie> SporkWitch: YOU'RE
18:37 < leachim6> also, I care
18:37 < Dagmar> In a channel with hundreds of people, the away/awaynick spam reaches toxic levels
18:37  * blocky is away: 4h 23m 9s [ ~~ doin stuff ~~ ] --- SomE cRaPPy mIRC pLugin v0.1a
18:37 < triceratux> leachim6: great. just about got systemd-resolved fully audited
18:37 < dgurney> sorry, laughing out loud
18:37 < phogg> Dagmar: sometimes yes
18:38 < dgurney> :P
18:38 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: caps, misspelling, and unnecessary newlines were all part of the joke :)
18:38 < leachim6> triceratux: audited security-wise or for functionality?
18:38 < pnbeast> I like it when bots kick people for nick changing, away messages, etc.
18:38 < dgurney> blocky, all you're missing is garish colors
18:38 < blocky> dgurney: lol
18:38 < sauvin> SporkWitch's English actually tends to border on excellent most of the time.
18:38 < phogg> dgurney: and the mixed CaSe
18:38 < dgurney> yep
18:38 < triceratux> leachim6: not simply why is it broken, but why do the devs think its not broken
18:38 < SporkWitch> sauvin: i was demonstrating 3 additional annoying things people do in IRC: all caps, excessive newlines, and using the wrong form of words like "your" and "there"
18:39 < leachim6> triceratux: sounds like systemd
18:39 < B8B88B88> how many bites is my nickname?
18:39 < Dagmar> Don't forget shooting up the place naked
18:39 < phogg> B8B88B88: zero
18:39 < leachim6> triceratux: I actually like systemd as a whole, people who hate it forget how bad managing systemV service dependencies was
18:39 < Dagmar> Oh wait, that's Waffle House
18:39 < blocky> it's several bates, if you pronounce B8 incorrectly
18:39 < kazdax> horray i got the nividia card working and now my resolution is prime
18:39 < phogg> leachim6: No, we don't.
18:39 < leachim6> I miss Waffle House
18:39 < leachim6> my new city doesn't have it :/
18:39 < SporkWitch> kazdax: make sure to use the nvidia proprietary binaries; they're excellent
18:39 < dgurney> kazdax, did nvidia and nivea unite there :P
18:39 < Dagmar> leachim6: No we didn't.  We know that sysV doesn't _do_ dependencies
18:39 < leachim6> phogg: in case you forgot, it was terrible
18:39 < SporkWitch> leachim6: got a denny's?  much better
18:39 < sauvin> Yup, saw that. Part of what made me say that is that I find it distracting, trying to learn erlang, and reading otherwise generally well-written explanatory text that's occasionally loaded with things like confusion between "its" and "it's".
18:40 < hexnewbie> pnbeast: What an evil genius would do is setup a Rube Goldberg machine of bots that kick on away messages, scripts that automate those away messages, then rejoin and announce they are back, that under the right circumstances triggers a chain reaction. ;p
18:40 < kazdax> k
18:40 < triceratux> leachim6: ive never encountered an issue with systemd. but even arch doesnt try to use systemd-resolved yet. you have to choose yer gulags
18:40 < leachim6> SporkWitch: Waffle House > Denny's, I'll fite you
18:40 < phogg> leachim6: I haven't forgotten because I'm still doing it to avoid managing systemd services.
18:40 < Dagmar> Stuff like that is the job of the system architext
18:40 < leachim6> triceratux: that's fair
18:40 < Dagmar> er architect
18:40 < blocky> I know people in real life who send SMS from their phone with excessive newlines
18:40 < leachim6> triceratux: RHEL/Centos7 doesn't use systemd-networkd yet either
18:40 < sauvin> I used to like IHOP, but they've gotten to be awful.
18:40 < SporkWitch> leachim6: waffle house is like the mcdonald's of fast food breakfasts; i have no doubt that they scoop half the food off the floor
18:40 < leachim6> still NetworkManager, which is it's own hill to climb
18:40 < leachim6> SporkWitch: that's the charm!
18:40 < pnbeast> hexnewbie, cool, can you do it to show me?
18:41 < phogg> leachim6: I don't use networkmanager either. It's a solution in search of a problem.
18:41 < dgurney> I use systemd-networkd on my server, mainly to just try it out
18:41 < dgurney> it hasn't blown up in any fashion yet
18:41 < leachim6> phogg: I tend to agree with you on that, but my work uses Redhat, so I have to learn the "redhat" way
18:41 < phogg> Add a mysterious actor as a middle man between what I tell the computer to do and what it actually does? No thanks.
18:41 < hexnewbie> pnbeast: Oh, my evil creation is still in the making.
18:42  * pnbeast shivers with anticipation.
18:42 < leachim6> is systemd-resolvd a replacement for `resolvconf` or for `nscd` ?
18:42 < SporkWitch> *antici.......pation
18:42 < vlt> phogg: Yes, the sceen comes back when I press a key. But where is the setting stored for that behaviour?
18:42 < hexnewbie> leachim6: Yes.
18:42 < leachim6> hexnewbie: figured
18:42 < phogg> leachim6: resolvconf and to an extent bind
18:42 < leachim6> probably more akin to Unbound
18:42 < Dagmar> leachim6: No, it's a support framework for future remotely exploitable vulnerabilities
18:42 < SporkWitch> vlt: depends on the DE or tty
18:42 < phogg> leachim6: it manages both configuration and acts as a local caching resolver.
18:42 < sauvin> o/~ keeping me way yay yay yay yayating.... o/~
18:42 < leachim6> Dagmar: looking forward to it!
18:43 < hexnewbie> systemd-resolved is also part of my masterplan ;)
18:43 < leachim6> although I do enjoy writing systemd units a lot more than sysv init scripts tbh
18:43 < phogg> vlt: X manages this itself. The xset command controls the power management part. There are also various graphical tools.
18:43 < leachim6> I mean, I have templates and such for init scripts...
18:43 < leachim6> I understand why the greybeards destest systemd
18:43 < leachim6> but I like some of the features
18:43 < funksh0n> Anyone know why dmenu_run doesn't respect my $PATH?  rofi will happily execute scripts in ~/bin but dmenu_run does not.
18:43 < leachim6> s/destest/detest
18:43 < Dagmar> leachim6: Because it's basically NIH syndrome come to life
18:44 < hexnewbie> leachim6: Everyone does. LSB init scripts being horrible does not mean systemd hasn't got faults, or can't be horrible either.
18:44 < SporkWitch> i don't actually have a real problem with systemd, but its theme song should really be this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK5jyVCdXwc
18:44 < phogg> vlt: if you want to completely disable screen turn off and blanking use: xset -dpms s noblank
18:44 < leachim6> Dagmar: that's a good way of looking at it, I try my best to avoid NIH syndrome, but it is tough when you're in it
18:44 < Dagmar> leachim6: Also, our deliberately simple, easily debugged, time-tested, and 100% reliable sysV inits never handed out root shells to users
18:44 < leachim6> Dagmar: you got me there
18:45 < leachim6> but it's OK according to systemd devs it's "not a bug"!
18:45 < leachim6> #Sekkurrity
18:45 < Dagmar> I literally had a guy jumping up and down talking about glibc being bad because you can't use numbers for usernames, due to a vagueness in POSIX
18:45 < oehansen> yawn
18:45 < hexnewbie> It's your fault for putting digits at the beginning of your user name. I mean, we give you root access for that. Wait, isn't that an award?
18:45 < Dagmar> Like, sane computer scientists do not abuse databases like that
18:45 < kazdax> whyw ould i need the nividia graphic drivers
18:45 < leachim6> funksh0n: IDK for demnu, you may wanna ask in #rice on irc.rizon.net those guys are super into #unixporn
18:45 < Pentode> lol Dagmar
18:45 < leachim6> kazdax: 3d accelleration
18:46 < vlt> SporkWitch: It’s openbox (on Ubuntu 16.04).
18:46 < SporkWitch> kazdax: most complete feature support and best performance
18:46 < Dagmar> They just *don't* take a database of names that's meant for humans to read *instead* of numbers, and go stick just another set of numbers into it
18:46 < kazdax> k
18:46 < Dagmar> That's why POSIX was silent on that point
18:46 < leachim6> kazdax: nouveau only supports very bassic (if any at all) 3d acceleration
18:46 < leachim6> don't expect to play any games with it
18:46 < vlt> phogg: Yes, I want to disable it completely but also want to know how to find out. Does the xset command have a --get-current-settings option?
18:47 < sillyslux> -q
18:47 < phogg> vlt: xset q
18:47 < phogg> vlt: man xset
18:47 < sauvin> I tried nouveau. I'm an old man, and move really slowly. Nouveau made me look like a hyperkinetic child.
18:47 < sauvin> It was a MIRACLE in "SLOW".
18:47 < blocky> why doesn't glibc support digits for usernames?
18:47 < dgurney> nouveau is good for old nvidia cards
18:47 < blocky> i'm guessing it was deliberate, not a bug
18:47 < phogg> blocky: impossible to distinguish user ID 1000 and user named 1000
18:47 < leachim6> sauvin: nouveau works fine if you just wanna do productivity shit
18:48 < dgurney> the geforce 2 mx400 in one of my recreational older computers works well using it
18:48 < leachim6> I have the nvidia binary drivers running for the GTX 770 in my linux PC, works fine
18:48 < Dagmar> ...but since wet-behind-the-ears wants to programmatically generate container users and has some traumatic history with the letter "u" or something, they actually consider the silence a "bug in POSIX"
18:48 < phogg> blocky: e.g. id -u 0 # is this root or a user named '0'?
18:48 < leachim6> phogg: good point
18:48 < kazdax> i have a geforce GTS 450
18:48 < kazdax> okay really odd thing is happenign right now ..when i enter vi
18:48 < blocky> phogg: well in C they would be stored in memory totally differently, ie. (char*) "0" vs (int) 0
18:49 < dgurney> my desktop has an rx580
18:49 < xkxkkxkkxx> i have an old nvidia card, you can't change screen resolution using framebuffer ioctl's with it
18:49 < Dagmar> It's not like people haven't run into the problem of "jillions of users" before.  They just stuck a "u" in front of the number.  Problem solved.
18:49 < kazdax> i press I to insert and then when i press the direction key ..downards..it keeps printing B
18:49 < dgurney> mainly because I wanted to avoid depending on an out-of-tree driver
18:49 < phogg> blocky: you still have to guess at the type when interpreting input
18:49 < xkxkkxkkxx> "good enough" i guess
18:49 < vlt> phogg: Great, thank you!
18:49 < blocky> phogg: are there many apps that accept either a userid or a user name without some other way of distinguishing though?
18:50 < leachim6> dgurney: who did you blow to get an RX580 ?
18:50 < phogg> blocky: the goal is, among other things, *simplicity*. It's far, far simpler to ban usernames starting with a number than to try to have a good heuristic for guessing correctly.
18:50 < phogg> blocky: Yes. MANY.
18:50 < Dagmar> blocky: They'll generally assume a purely numeric input is a uid, and that something with alphas in it is a username, or they'll simply presume that anything given to them is a username
18:50 < hexnewbie> blocky: systemd services, which are the topic (I think). Then again, a user ID *number* in a service file feels kind of wrong, so why not prefix those with # (should be invalid in usernames?) as the rare case?
18:51 < Dagmar> phogg: But my point is you really shoudln't have to ban them because it's not the product of a well-ordered mind
18:51 < phogg> blocky: it's not like one or two or five or ten programs have these assumptions; they all do
18:51 < dgurney> leachim6, nobody. :P I just managed to find a sapphire nitro+ 4gb variant for a reasonable price
18:51 < blocky> phogg: you mean systemd programs or just generally?
18:51 < phogg> blocky: no one has done an audit, but I've seen a lot that get it wrong
18:52 < phogg> Dagmar: indeed, you shouldn't have to ban them... it's just simpler
18:53 < blocky> now i need to go read about the history of posix
18:53 < hexnewbie> It's normal for the foobar service to run under the foobar user, not under user 1234. A service file with User=1234 will backfire sooner or later, so why not just have it require User=#1234, instead of treaing User=666thedevil as User=root?
18:53 < Dagmar> ...but we get this stuff becuse people get out of college or whatever and have 4-5 years of experience with C or some FOTM language, and decide that everything is old and needs to be rewritten
18:53 < Dagmar> ...and they lack the perspective of time.
18:53 < blocky> heh
18:53 < Dagmar> hexnewbie: Your BSD roots are showing
18:53 < blocky> lol Dagmar
18:54 < phogg> hexnewbie: it's not unreasonable to do something like that, but it is unreasonable to declare that POSIX is buggy. AT least not for that reason.
18:54 < hexnewbie> I don't have Beastie as a wallpaper, or a screensaver, and I definitely never chmod files to 666.
18:54 < Dagmar> blocky: I'm serious.  I'd know not to abuse a list meant for _names_ by sticking numbers in it for a couple of reasons, but both were because I watched college-level lectures on data storage theory and stuff when I was a kid
18:55 < blocky> i watched a great talk yesterday about the architecture of unix as it evolved from 1970 PDP-7 to FreeBSD 11
18:55 < Dagmar> blocky: But the people who can't see that doing so is wrong (and needlessly redundant) are the ones hastily trying to rewrite everything into systemd
18:55 < phogg> blocky: Sounds interesting. Why by? Or: Link?
18:55 < phogg> s/why/who/
18:55 < blocky> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbDebSinSQo
18:55 < pepermuntjes> are you allowed to call freebsd unix? I think you have to call them "unix-like". Because they don't pay the fee to the unix consurtum.
18:56 < phogg> pepermuntjes: yes
18:56 < Dagmar> pepermuntjes: We haven't had to type "UN*X" for a couple decades now so I wouldn't worry about it much
18:56 < phogg> pepermuntjes: FreeBSD is Unix but not UNIX. MacOS X is UNIX.
18:56 < dgurney> *macOS :P
18:56 < phogg> functionally the owners of the mark no longer seem to care
18:56 < blocky> lol
18:56 < dgurney> don't you just love name changes
18:57 < blocky> how compliant is macOS compared to freebsd?
18:57 < hexnewbie> pepermuntjes: You're allowed to call anything Unix (your cat, for example), as long as you don't call your own products Unix and violate the trademark, and get sued.
18:57 < SporkWitch> blocky: it meets SUS
18:57 < phogg> dgurney: when it was last tested for compliance that was the name.
18:58 < phogg> talking about "POSIX" is actually terribly unhelpful. SUS (with a version number) is better.
18:58 < dgurney> that must have been a while ago
18:58 < SporkWitch> no idea which version it meets, just know that macosx meets the single unix standard and can legally be called Unix
18:58 < Dagmar> I'll stick with worrying about POSIX
18:59 < Guy1524> I can't write to thumb drive of mine
18:59 < Guy1524> no matter what I do, the changes don't apply
18:59 < SporkWitch> Guy1524: mount it rw
18:59 < Guy1524> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdc finishes within seconds
18:59 < hexnewbie> Guy1524: May be the thumb drive is broken.
18:59 < Guy1524> but accomplishes nothing
18:59 < Guy1524> gparted changes don't work
18:59 < blocky> i think i am in the minority of people who actually don't mind mac os as a desktop os
18:59 < Guy1524> possibly
19:00 < blocky> Guy1524: does dmesg show anything helpful?
19:00 < Dagmar> Guy1524; Make sure there's not a tiny switch on the side of it
19:00 < SporkWitch> one sign of failed flash media is that you CANNOT mount with write protections or make any changes to it; double check it doesn't have a hardware write-lock switch on it
19:00 < hexnewbie> Guy1524: Did you wait a *long* time before pulling the drive out, and possibly run sync and wait as well?
19:00 < SporkWitch> the 128GB sd card i had for my raspi died that way :'(
19:00 < Dagmar> If there's no physical switch on it, then check dmesg for what the kernel thought about the drive when it was plugged in
19:00 < Gurkenglas_> The "this filesystem" link on http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/ appears to be dead. Can you suggest alternatives to UML?
19:01 < hexnewbie> Guy1524: Or is the drive the same even without you pulling it out?
19:01 < Dagmar> SporkWitch: Jeebus
19:01 < Guy1524> dmesg shows this: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/bFWpvzP2cv/
19:01 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: yeah, i was not pleased
19:01 < hexnewbie> Gurkenglas_: Regular flow charts ;p
19:01 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: was on sale, though, only cost like 30 bucks
19:01 < Gurkenglas_> I have a user account on a linux machine I'd like to pretend I have root on a linux machine. I only need command-line access
19:01 < Dagmar> SporkWitch: I learned the hard way last year to not be careless with which power supply you're using on an RPi because of that
19:01 < Gurkenglas_> *machine and I'd
19:01 < Dagmar> SporkWitch: At least I didn't kill a 128Gb card.  I murdered three 8's and a 4 tho
19:02 < Guy1524> I'll try running sync
19:02 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: was definitely a good power supply, forget the name of the site, but it's an RIT alum that started a company reviewing and reselling raspi gear
19:02 < Dagmar> Turns out, when you use an underpowered USB charger by mistake, writing to the microSD card while the thing is driving a couple of wireless dongles can cause power dips that will just murder the microSD card
19:02 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: think it was just a defective card that died after a bit over a year
19:02 < hexnewbie> Gurkenglas_: Seriously though, containers and/or QEMU/KVM VMs. Or for that particular case, perhaps fakeroot?
19:03 < JessicaRN> Hey folks, I'm trying to set up cups on a rpi3 running jessie.  The printer driver I need is only on the mfgrs site.  I d/led the driver and installed it per the mfgrs instructions but when i "lpq -a" i see nothing.  Noob here (If it wasn't already obvious)
19:03 < JessicaRN> any tips?
19:03 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: makes sense, but i don't believe that was the issue here
19:03 < Guy1524> here are my dd results: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/TXdK5jCgy3/
19:03 < SporkWitch> Guy1524: you weren't asked for dd results, you were asked for dmesg errors when the drive is first connected
19:04 < Dagmar> Guy1524: Unplug it, type "sudo logger foo", then plug it back in and pastbin the output of dmesg
19:04 < Guy1524> SporkWitch: I sent those already
19:04 < Guy1524> <Guy1524> dmesg shows this: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/bFWpvzP2cv/
19:04 < pnbeast> JessicaRN, the first thing I'd do is connect to the CUPS web interface and look all through it to see what it thinks.
19:04 < blocky> i have a hunch that power supplies are generally an under-appreciate component in computers
19:04 < hexnewbie> JessicaRN: I have 5 working printers, and my lpq -a is also empty. Use the web interace.
19:04 < Dagmar> Actually, skip the logger part.  I am not caffienated enough to care about passing it the args needed
19:04 < SporkWitch> Guy1524: and from when you mount it?
19:04 < JessicaRN> when I look in cups the new printer isn't listed.  do I need to restart cups?
19:05 < Dagmar> blocky: I just plain grabbed the wrong one and was using it for months before I noticed
19:05 < Guy1524> SporkWitch: mounting it doesn't output anything
19:06 < Gurkenglas_> hexnewbie, fakeroot only works on Debian, right? How do I figure out whether the system I'm ssh'd onto has Debian? Can I install QEMU or KVM without root?
19:06 < Guy1524> actually, here this time it was different
19:06 < JessicaRN> this is how I installed the printer: http://support.brother.com/g/b/downloadhowto.aspx?c=us&lang=en&prod=hll2305w_us&os=128&dlid=dlf006893_000&flang=4&type3=625
19:06 < SporkWitch> if you're unable to mount it rw, there should be error output in the logs
19:06 < Dagmar> The microSD cards that were dying were old anyway, and I was more irritated that my entire working environment for a project was on them
19:06 < lovetruth> hello :)
19:06 < Guy1524> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/pqhvGv8SCQ/
19:06 < Dagmar> I had to consider that I might be overlooking something after the third failure
19:06 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: and what did we learn about backups? :)
19:06 < lovetruth> is it possible to convert a makefile into a bash script?... :)
19:06 < hexnewbie> Gurkenglas_: qemu will probably work without root (and can certainly be installed locally), but will be very slow as KVM wouldn't be available
19:06 < Dagmar> SporkWitch: That they're not really a requirement at that stage because of the way I code
19:07 < SporkWitch> lovetruth: why? O.o use make...
19:07 < phogg> lovetruth: Theoretically yes. Do not try. It's prohibitively difficult for non-trivial makefiles.
19:07 < hexnewbie> Gurkenglas_: Well, /dev/kvm is available without root, but it's unlikely you're given access to it.
19:07 < Gurkenglas_> hexnewbie, what slowdown factor are we talking?
19:07 < Dagmar> I paint with a _very_ broad brush when I'm prototyping something
19:07 < pnbeast> lovetruth, "possible"?  Are you familiar with the concept of "Turing complete"?
19:07 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: if the loss of your project files was frustrating, that is demonstrably not the case lol
19:07 < Dagmar> If I don't like the code I've been writing, I may very well throw the entire thing away and start over again
19:08 < Dagmar> Like, I know that I'm going to wind up removing every line twice anyway before it's over, so at least doing an rm -rf on the subdir gets it over with quickly
19:08 < hexnewbie> Gurkenglas_: I haven't actually tried. By the way, what do you need this for? Finding a saner program may be another option (or running it on a VM on your own machine as proper root, depending on how much you trust the program)
19:08 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: so does git reset --hard
19:08 < Dagmar> SporkWitch: No, the _unexpected_ loss was a problem
19:09 < Gurkenglas_> hexnewbie, I want to try CoqHammer, but it doesn't build on Windows, and my machine has little space left, and it's nice when you can continue working on your smartphone via ssh
19:09 < JessicaRN> hexnewbie: Using the cups interface I tried to print a test page.  nothing came out but the queue said it was completed
19:10 < Gurkenglas_> hexnewbie, can you estimate the factor? 80% confidence of within 2 to 10, or something?
19:11 < hexnewbie> Gurkenglas_: That doesn't sound like something that should require root
19:11 < Dagmar> SporkWitch; Seriously, the most complex bit of code I was writing was a perl module called "crapDB" specifically designed to provide an API for a fixed-length records holder
19:11 < Gurkenglas_> hexnewbie, it makes it so I can't use the package manager and I've been having problems building stuff
19:11 < Dagmar> So... This isn't a lot of lines we're talkign about.  Not worth backing up until _what I was doing with it_ made more sense
19:12 < Gurkenglas_> hexnewbie, http://lpaste.net/3960125709959036928
19:12 < sauvin> Who does fixed length records anymore?
19:12 < phogg> sauvin: You'd be surprised.
19:12 < JessicaRN> hexnewbie: do you know if there is a troubleshooting guide for cups?
19:12 < phogg> also, people who deal with legacy systems and data
19:13 < hexnewbie> Gurkenglas_: That doesn't sound like anything faking root would fix.
19:13 < Dagmar> sauvin: People who only have row-column data to worry about, every field of which is a rather minimal length, and who want things to run quickly even on a potato
19:13 < phogg> sauvin: I was still generating and submitting a fixed record format from a new web application in 2012; it had to be compatible with a financial system that hadn't changed since the 80s.
19:13  * phogg assumes it's still in use today
19:13 < Gurkenglas_> hexnewbie, why wouldn't package manager access fix everything?
19:14 < sauvin> Phogg is correct. I'd be surprised.
19:14 < Dagmar> There's not a lot of point in even invoking SQLite let alone a full-blown SQL server when you're talking about 300-500 records that are GUIDs and associated with at most 2-3 short strings apiece
19:14 < hexnewbie> JessicaRN: Hm, it's strange if there's no error. It means that the data went through to the printer (or to somewhere), but the printer didn't think it got a valid file. So either you configured the wrong port when you added the printer through the web interface, or you used the wrong filter for generating the printer data (i.e. wrong driver).
19:14 < phogg> Dagmar: even so I would go for delimited just because it's less math to look up the right columns
19:15 < sauvin> Dagmar, in your case, I think I'd have been tempted to use tied hashes or Berkely DB or something.
19:15 < JessicaRN> hexnewbie: the printer never left deep sleep
19:15 < zapotah> phogg: sounds like the kind of shit people are "surprised" that they are vulnerable
19:15 < Dagmar> sauvin: BDB would ahve been more work
19:15 < phogg> zapotah: I don't think it surprises anyone any more.
19:15 < zapotah> phogg: it doesnt surprise anyone even remotely competent in this field
19:16 < Gurkenglas_> So why is the filesystem link on http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/ down?
19:16 < Dagmar> sauvin: Tied hashes would work, but... storage to microSD card.  No sense in even messing about with misaligned writes let alone spurious writes
19:16 < zapotah> phogg: its the manglement people and the general public that are "surprised"
19:16 < sauvin> Ah, I didn't know about the microSD.
19:16 < Gurkenglas> Is there a mirror?
19:16 < kazdax> whats a good book on linux programming ..anything easy to start out with ?
19:16 < phogg> zapotah: To those for whom computers are magic it is always surprising when the spell fails; the why isn't something they'd expect to understand.
19:17 < zapotah> phogg: since they dont know with how little sense and competence all this shit is operated with
19:17 < kazdax> i might wanna get into linux programming ..dont know what i wanna program but maybe if i gave it an overall try i might find something to focus on
19:17 < Dagmar> sauvin: Yeah I'm using fixed-length because all of each entry is going to comfortably fit in 512 bytes, so I can do pre-record locks
19:17 < pnbeast> kazdax, TLPI by Kerrisk?  ALP, free on the intarwebz and maybe available in hard copy?
19:17 < kazdax> ill look it up
19:17 < zapotah> phogg: its quite funny that they rely on said magic 100% for their business, yet dont understand for shit how that magic functions
19:17 < kazdax> thanks
19:17 < phogg> zapotah: There's no such thing as "sense" when you're dealing with magic. You hire a wizard and he does... something and magic happens. To even contemplate understanding how it works is unthinkable.
19:18 < Dagmar> er per-record locks (although I have not implemented that because the use-case is still a very small number of users)
19:18 < zapotah> phogg: thats with the stupids
19:18 < phogg> zapotah: that's 99% of everyone
19:18 < zapotah> too much of that around tho
19:18 < zapotah> aye
19:18 < JessicaRN> pnbeast: do you have a sec to lend me a hand?
19:18 < Dagmar> I'm sure at some point some jackass is going to demand that I "fix" it to scale to the hundreds of thousands of items and dozens of simultaneous users, and the answer to that's going to be "PAY ME"
19:19 < pnbeast> JessicaRN, if it's not in the web interface, I'm out of ideas.
19:19 < phogg> Dagmar: or he could just buy more microSD cards. Probably cheaper.
19:19 < JessicaRN> pnbeast: I see the printer in the web interface.  when I send a test print, nothing happens on the printer but the job shows up as complete
19:20 < Dagmar> phogg: Nah, that's not the thing.  The project was for basically, ticket redemption
19:20 < Dagmar> phogg: Someone with an event that would have tens of thousands of guests can afford to shell out some money
19:20 < pnbeast> JessicaRN, did you check for any log file entries?  I'm not hoping for much, but maybe there'd be a smoking gun, there.
19:21 < JessicaRN> pnbeast: i'm sorry, but I wouldn't know where to look.
19:21 < Dagmar> phogg: Some guys playing at a bar or having a private party in a warehouse somewhere... those people should be able to handle things with $35 in hardware and some borrowed smartphones
19:21 < pnbeast> JessicaRN, places like /var/log/messages, or /var/log/printlog, maybe - usually things are in /var/log, someplace.  I'm not sure what CUPS does, specifically.
19:21 < phogg> suck, mostly
19:22 < Dagmar> phogg++
19:22 < JessicaRN> ty
19:22 < phogg> I'd help diagnose a cups problem but it's my day off and you can't make me.
19:22 < pnbeast> JessicaRN, according to once source, /var/log/cups/<various> might have information.
19:22 < phogg> I will offer a "Good luck," though. A solution exists.
19:23 < Dagmar> I don't think it's without reason that the only mention of CUPS in the RHCSA only goes as far as to make you prove you are aware it has a configuration file
19:23 < JessicaRN> phogg: yeah, it's mine also...
19:23 < pnbeast> phogg, what if I tie you up, smear honey on you and point out the approaching ant column?
19:23 < JessicaRN> pnbeast: I'll look
19:23 < pepermuntjes> http://localhost:631
19:23 < Dagmar> pnbeast; Sounds better than spending a day with CUPS
19:23 < phogg> pnbeast: I can't type with my hands tied
19:23 < pnbeast> :D
19:24 < Dagmar> "CUPS -- Is it made with electrons?  Answer yes, or no."
19:24 < oiaohm> Dagmar: https://pretix.eu/about/en/features/checkin  I know this is kind of scary but yes I have seen 100 000 seat+ venues use this.  Yes 1 hell of a cvs file downloaded into the check in device.
19:25 < Dagmar> oiaohm: Yeah mine's just plain free
19:26 < Dagmar> oiaohm; Also, it comes with documentation about how the security model actually works, which is the more important thing
19:26 < triceratux> Gurkenglas: doesnt look good. its been broken a long time & even the mirrors dont exist anymore. FedoraCore5 is pretttty old https://sourceforge.net/p/user-mode-linux/mailman/message/21228322/
19:27 < Dagmar> oiaohm; I note that pretix rather quickly grew to the point where it's not likely to run on an RPi anymore
19:32 < lovetruth> it's not a big makefile... this is the one: https://bpaste.net/show/b2ce12a0c02b
19:33 < lovetruth> so... is it hard to convert it to a simple bash script?...
19:33 < Dagmar> It won't be a simple bash script
19:33 < phogg> lovetruth: it's not impossible, but it's not easy.
19:34 < oiaohm> Dagmar: there are a few different open source ones for ticket management like  https://github.com/Attendize/Attendize most are still missing a good secure door application.   A lot have big scary cvs files when you look at what is stored cvs in door person device has way too much information.
19:34 < phogg> oiaohm: I assume you mean csv.
19:34 < phogg> storing in cvs would be quite insane
19:35 < Dagmar> oiaohm: Yeah mine just sends over the records associated with the ticket the ticket-taker or whatever was shown
19:35 < oiaohm> phogg: sorry suffering from repeating typo.
19:35 < SporkWitch> phogg: there are people that still use cvs :'(
19:35 < phogg> SporkWitch: but not a lot who use it as an application database
19:35 < Dagmar> oiaohm; I'm actually going to a bit of trouble to ensure that even if the redemption server is compromised, the data won't be able to be used to just print a bunch of copies of tickets
19:35 < SporkWitch> phogg: i don't care what they use it for, the fact they still use it is tragic lol
19:36 < phogg> SporkWitch: That's true. They're suffering from inertia and thus still suffering from CVS.
19:36 < ratchetwrench> does anyone have experience using monit? it is shutting down the process it is supposed to keep running (-.-) after 30 seconds even though the process is running fine
19:37 < phogg> even trying to go back to doing svn checkins drives me nuts
19:37 < Loshki> lovetruth: the easy way is to collect the output from the makefile, and use that as a script. You lose the main benefit of make though, which is to recompile only the parts which change.
19:37 < Dagmar> oiaohm: The only thing the client app "stores" is the credentials for the user responsibile for holding the phone and nothin' else
19:37 < phogg> Dagmar: Some kind of token?
19:37 < Dagmar> ...although technically lifecycle state variables are probably an sqlite database somewhere on the device
19:38 < oiaohm> Dagmar: Something else to consider on rpi is if you make it that you plug in a USB standard harddrive as a requirement.   The limited writes of a flash cards is trouble.
19:38 < Dagmar> phogg: Yeah, nonces are being used
19:38 < Dagmar> oiaohm: it shouldn't be a problem for this
19:39 < Dagmar> This is explcitly for tiny-to-medium-sized events
19:39 < jim> what's a nonces?
19:39 < Dagmar> ...but even if it were for something the size of Dragon*Con I'm _certain_ the organizers could spring for a new SD card each year
19:39 < oiaohm> Dagmar: cheap cards I have had die in about  4 rewrites of the card.
19:39 < Dagmar> jim: They'er basically a big number that acts as proof the presenter has a login session active
19:40 < oiaohm> Dagmar: at least include a node decent quality SD cards required.
19:40 < oiaohm> Dagmar: node/note
19:40 < Dagmar> oiaohm: Who in their right mind would buy a sketchy card to put in an important role
19:40 < jim> ok
19:40 < Dagmar> I'm not putting disclaimers in the client that the user shouldn't attempt to eat their smartphone, either
19:40 < oiaohm> Dagmar: never under estimate the penny pinching boss problem.
19:41 < Dagmar> Nor am I going to put warnings in the docs that stabbing your attendees with knives will be bad for future attendance
19:43 < Dagmar> I am half-tempted to look into if it's viable to use the magic GUID to encrypt rest of the records in the field
19:43 < Dagmar> ...just as a middle finger to busybodies who might want to claim they have some right to that information, against the will of the people holding the event
19:44 < oiaohm> Dagmar: its just a note that SD usage will have a decent volume of read/write.   For the clients I guess you could get away with a read only SD card of the cheapest form that was written once.
19:44 < Dagmar> oiaohm: I had to use a bad power supply to kill the microSd cards
19:45 < Dagmar> oiaohm: MicroSD cards are just not as fragile as you seem to think they are
19:45 < Dagmar> They wouldn't be suitable as _boot media_ if they were
19:45 < Dagmar> This is a *non issue*
19:45 < oiaohm> Dagmar: I get really cheap ones from china.
19:45 < oiaohm> Dagmar: you know there is kind of trouble then  8G card is 40 cents.
19:46 < Dagmar> Understand that *humans* will be toting around the hard tokens that are the chokepoint preventing this from _ever_ becoming a "thousands of updates per second" scenario which would still take a _very long time_ to be an issue for wear cycles
19:46 < Dagmar> Something bought on sale at Target is going to at least be able to survive a full weekend of deliberate abuse
19:47 < Dagmar> HUmans arms will fall off before the system would kill an sdcard
19:47 < oiaohm> Dagmar: the dirty cheap I am talking somewhere between 1 to 10 full writes before dead.
19:47 < Dagmar> This highlights the reason I started the project to begin with
19:47 < oiaohm> Dagmar: so way worse than you general shop cards.
19:48 < oiaohm> Dagmar: for boot cards in thin terminal devices they do.
19:48 < Dagmar> Every single time someone tries to do this, they appear to almost immediately have scope creep happen, their eyes fill with dollar signs, and suddenly it becomes almost impossible to actually do anything
19:48 < Dagmar> ...at least not for nearly free.
19:48 < R0b0t1> How do I prevent "address already in use" errors when listening on a port? I am calling shutdown on the bound socket.
19:49 < Dagmar> An RPi3, power supply, and microSD card are like $50 in total, and the entire thing will run on that including acting as an AP with pinned SSL
19:50 < oiaohm> Dagmar: basically RPi + a dirt cheap thin terminal microSD is not going to do what they need.  That is why I said include note that a decent microsd card is need not the cheapest you can aquire.
19:50 < R0b0t1> There's boards a lot better than the RPi3, that don't use close processor
19:50 < R0b0t1> RPi3 shouldn't be the default, just say "single board computer"
19:50 < Dagmar> R0b0t1: Wait like, 30 seconds after the previous process has relenquished the port, or set SO_REUSE on the socket options
19:50 < Dagmar> R0b0t1: Again, stop increasing the costs
19:50 < pepermuntjes> R0b0t1, what bord is better for streaming multimedia?
19:50 < R0b0t1> But I didn't Dagmar
19:50 < Dagmar> Every bloody time
19:50 < Dagmar> R0b0t1: None of the "better hardware" boards you're talking about are cheaper
19:51 < R0b0t1> Some of them are. Based on Allwinner parts, etc. Also, from memory, broadcom chips have had horrible multimedia performance based on their drivers.
19:51 < pepermuntjes> R0b0t1, do you have a link to a very good board?
19:51 < junka> No. It's a disease. Seek help immediately.
19:51 < Dagmar> RPis are plentiful, they're cheap, they're reliable.  If someone's got the chops to run the thing on somehting else, good for them
19:51 < Dagmar> Whatever problems they incur are _theirs to keep and solve_
19:52 < Dagmar> Expecting people to go and research a bunch of crap from Alibaba in order to save $2 is _stupid_
19:52 < oiaohm> Dagmar: https://www.clearcube.com/raspberry-pi-thin-client/  some of vendors that are raspberry pi makes up devices like this come with the nightmare cards I am talking about.
19:52 < R0b0t1> you don't have to get it from alibaba
19:53 < R0b0t1> Supporting a closed platform that really isn't that good is what is strange
19:53 < oiaohm> Dagmar: so they by a rasbery pi built up thin client with include card and the include card be total crap.
19:53 < R0b0t1> It was just the first thing to market
19:53 < R0b0t1> It's not very good
19:53 < pepermuntjes> R0b0t1, which one is very good?
19:53 < R0b0t1> http://www.friendlyarm.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69&product_id=212
19:53 < R0b0t1> Those are ok
19:53 < SuperSeriousCat> Its decent. And it is the one with big community which help a lot
19:54 < Dagmar> oiaohm: That's not my problem either
19:54 < R0b0t1> http://www.hardkernel.com/main/main.php
19:54 < R0b0t1> Ranges from low powered and pretty cheap to really high powered
19:54 < R0b0t1> I have some reservations about Exynos parts, however
19:54 < R0b0t1> Amlogic ones are good
19:54 < loganrun> is it better to use symmetric key or public key encryption for backup up my hard drive with duplicity. seems like public key is probably more secure
19:54 < Dagmar> R0b0t1: No.
19:55 < R0b0t1> This is one of those cases where the absolute cheapest option is stupid, but I did give one cheaper than an RPi for just the board
19:55 < Dagmar> You don't get to jsut throw out a bucketful of random hardware items to "prove" your point
19:55 < flying_sausages> hey guys, I just accidentally chowned everything on my system as a random user. Anyone knows if there's an easy way to rebuild the correct ownerships across the entire file system?
19:55 < R0b0t1> Well if you want to move the goalpost Dagmar I'm just going to leave
19:55 < R0b0t1> What other proof is there?
19:55 < mawk> router solicitations are sent with the fe80::/64 address ?
19:55 < Dagmar> R0b0t1: You're the one shifting the goalposts around
19:55 < R0b0t1> I've used a bunch of SBCs and had problems with most of them, but the hardkernel ones are nice. So are most Allwinner based boards.
19:55 < mawk> and neighbor advertisements are sent with the routable address
19:56 < mawk> and neigbor solicitations are sent with the fe80::/64 address
19:56 < R0b0t1> You asked for some concrete examples and I gave them, Dagmar
19:56 < mawk> correct ?
19:56 < Gurkenglas> Why is it harder to install things without root than with? Is it just that the userbase is smaller?
19:56 < R0b0t1> And that is all I did
19:56 < pepermuntjes> loganrun, symmetric means decrypt with only  a password,  with a key pair you need the secret key and the passphrase
19:56 < Dagmar> R0b0t1: No, I asked for an example of a better board that's cheaper
19:56 < Dagmar> R0b0t1: ...and unless it's _significantly_ cheaper, it's a waste of my time
19:56 < R0b0t1> And I gave one, then listed some others that I think are overall a better buy
19:57 < Dagmar> No, you didn't.  the cheapest thing on that page is about the same cost
19:57 < R0b0t1> Well, that you are so incapable as to be unable to avoid vendor lock-in is not my problem
19:57 < R0b0t1> Have a nice day
19:57 < Dagmar> Later!
19:57 < Dagmar> I'm sure a bunch of stuff that runs on relatively vanilla linux is going to be prone to "vendor lock-in".  Pfft.
19:58 < Gurkenglas> wget https://raw.github.com/ocaml/opam/master/shell/opam_installer.sh -O - | sh -s /usr/local/bin <- how do I change the BINDIR argument?
19:58 < loganrun> pepermuntjes: yeah, but still not sure which I should use
19:58 < Gurkenglas> Wait, /usr/local/bin isn't the default loool
19:59 < R0b0t1> You preemptively gave up on everything I listed just because it's not an RPi
19:59 < R0b0t1> Huh?
20:00 < djph> Gurkenglas: why on Cthulhu's watery prison would you EVER pipe anything you get from the internet thru sh
20:00 < oiaohm> flying_sausages: https://matoski.com/article/debian-restore-var-ownership-permissions/  if you have done that to core operating system the process will depend on distribution.
20:01 < Gurkenglas> djph, because https://opam.ocaml.org/doc/Install.html tells me to
20:01 < pepermuntjes> loganrun, thats up to you
20:01 < pepermuntjes> i think most people would consider a keypair + passphrase more secure then a single password
20:01 < djph> Gurkenglas: so you'd listen to a website that tells you to jump off the Empire State Building?
20:02 < Gurkenglas> https://xkcd.com/1170/
20:03 < SporkWitch> djph: the internet never lies
20:03 < djph> Gurkenglas: "the internet" is not "your friends"
20:03 < newpy> I have a file ./test with #!/usr/bin/python and it says -su: ./test: Permission denied
20:04 < SporkWitch> Gurkenglas: trust the internet; btw, did i mention i'm a nigerian prince?
20:04 < newpy> when I try to run it
20:04 < newpy> first I tried w/out superuser but it also gave permission denied
20:04 < djph> newpy: you're not allowed to execute the file "test"
20:04 < sillyslux> SporkWitch, you in croatia too?
20:04 < newpy> djph, even as root?
20:04 < newpy> I should add, I'm using Windows Subsystem for Linux
20:05 < pepermuntjes> newpy, type bash test
20:05 < pepermuntjes> or chmod +x test
20:05 < djph> newpy: the file is most likely non-executable.  Alternately "Windows" is your problem.
20:05 < SporkWitch> newpy: the shebang is applied if you try to execute it as a command and it has the executable bit.  if it's not executable, you have to invoke the shell and pass the file as an argument.  You also usually can't use sudo on a script, but you can use sudo IN a script
20:05 < newpy> pepermuntjes, bash seems to have tried to run it
20:05 < newpy> SporkWitch, ah ic, or chmod +x test as pepermuntjes said?
20:05 < SporkWitch> newpy: don't use the WSL, it's deliberately crippled and introduces countless issues because it lacks basic core functionality
20:06 < SporkWitch> newpy: man chmod
20:06 < newpy> SporkWitch, I won't use WSL for anything that matters, I just happen to be on a windows machine
20:06 < newpy> messing with python
20:06 < pepermuntjes> either make it executable (+x), or start it like "bash scriptname"
20:07 < sauvin> Windows ain't Linux, and neither is that stupid subsystem. You can ask questions, but you'll get Linux answers, and only for a short while. Some of us have limited patience with protracted dramedy.
20:07 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: python scriptname
20:07 < newpy> pepermuntjes, `chmod +x test` did the trick, `bash test` didn't seem to use python at all
20:07 < newpy> it tried to run it as a bash script
20:07 < SporkWitch> newpy: correct, like i said...
20:07 < newpy> ah yea, python scriptname would make sense
20:08 < newpy> but the #! was to avoid having to type python in the first place :)
20:08 < SporkWitch> newpy: the shebang tells the shell what to parse it with if it's executable and you try to run it; if it's not executable you need to invoke the interpreter and pass it the file as an argument; it ignores the shebang
20:09 < newpy> SporkWitch, yea I think when I used mingw64 it automatically enabled +x
20:09 < jim> pepermuntjes had the concept right: use the interpreter you want on the script you want to interpret (like: bash somescript.bash or python apythonscript.py, lua it.lua, etc)
20:10 < funksh0n> kinda off-topic but I figure someone here might know the answer; what's the background to the term 'analogue' in tech?
20:10 < pepermuntjes> funksh0n, analog but fancier?
20:10 < jim> when you make a script executable, it usually needs for you to tell it which interpreter on the top line of the script, like: #!/usr/bin/python
20:10 < SporkWitch> funksh0n: pretty literal, in fact.  look up the non-tech definition
20:11 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: s/fancier/spelled correctly/
20:11 < funksh0n> I understand how it makes sense SporkWitch but I was just wondering the history of it
20:12 < pepermuntjes> analog = no zero's and one's
20:12 < pepermuntjes> digital = zero's and one's
20:12 < SporkWitch> funksh0n: first usage i'm aware of is in audio, and it's literally an analogue of the audio waves fixed in a tangible medium
20:13 < funksh0n> pepermuntjes: analogue* is 'comprable' so I understand how it's a term in audio
20:13 < funksh0n> huh yeah
20:13 < pepermuntjes> laserdic video is also anolog i think
20:14 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: i don't see how...
20:14 < milpool> i think it was analog
20:14 < SporkWitch> (which is how the early phonographs worked: no electricity or powered amplicifaction, that big cone works like bullhorn, the needle vibrating over the grooves in the record reproduces the same sounds, and the cone amplifies it so you can hear it)
20:14 < jim> well digital is about finite numbers while analog is about infinitely varying values
20:15 < funksh0n> so the sound that's reproduced through the mechanism is analgous to the original sound, hence analogue?
20:15 < milpool> < pepermuntjes> digital = zero's and one' <- no, that's binary
20:15 < funksh0n> ^
20:16 < jim> I think the word analog isn't used in the sense of "comparable"
20:16 < oerheks> Analog remastered DD
20:16 < docmur> I had a LVM Group (vides), that was across three disks.  One of the disks died, how do I, or is it possible, to get the data from that logical volume that's on the other two disks?
20:17 < SporkWitch> yeah, based on what i can find, LD is digital, but not analog, though i do see the term misapplied
20:17 < funksh0n> jim so analog is a misnomer or colloquialism?  It's even speld wrongly so it fits.
20:17 < jim> think of any value between 0 and 1, and look at the possible values as an infinitely varying, and infinitely small movements within that range
20:17 < ananke> docmur: depends on how the logical layout was mapped to the physical devices. logical extents -> physical extents
20:17 < funksh0n> mhm
20:18 < SporkWitch> from what i can find, the earlier LDs did have analogue audio, though
20:18 < ananke> funksh0n: 'analog' is not spelled 'wrongly'
20:18 < SporkWitch> docmur: lvm doesn't mean raid
20:19 < jim> funksh0n, it's similar to this: the amount of voltage and current going into a speaker will cause it to move in a corresponding way
20:19 < hexnewbie> An electrical analogue signal (the amplitude of voltage) is analogous to the the actual sound signal (amplitude of the sound wave).
20:19 < docmur> Obviously ...
20:19 < funksh0n> ananke: oh, so analog and analogue are actually sepearate words?
20:19 < SporkWitch> funksh0n: analog is americans misspelling it
20:19 < funksh0n> jim my dude, I'm not asking that lol
20:20 < milpool> "analog" is also german, that's why i spelled it like that. but we are speaking english here, so yea, "analogue".
20:20 < hexnewbie> Analogue is a word, analog is just the log of anacron. ;p
20:20 < ananke> funksh0n: it's an adjective: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analog?src=search-dict-box
20:20 < docmur> ananke, is there a way to tell after the fact?  I don't see it in lvdisplay
20:21 < jml2> funksh0n, analog means like "voltage-based"  -- it is not digital because it could be operating eg at 4.9, 4.8, 5.0  volts for a 5 volt speaker... The "inconsistencies" on the variance is not important because for a "speaker" you can barely tell there is a difference..  this is a crude comparison
20:21 < ananke> docmur: do you have access to /etc/lvm?
20:21 < funksh0n> let analog = analogue
20:21 < docmur> yes
20:21 < funksh0n> plz
20:21 < jml2> funksh0n, there's no such thing as a "pure digital" system because underneath in the electronics it is all still analog...
20:21 < jml2> funksh0n, ^
20:22 < hexnewbie> Even simple NLM AIs can handle multiple spellings of a word without issue
20:22 < ananke> docmur: look under /etc/lvm/backup/<your volume group>
20:22 < hexnewbie> er, s/NLM/NLP/
20:22 < funksh0n> okay to re-iterate my question, when did analogue/analog become a term in computing and why?
20:22 < docmur> ananke: There isn't a backup folder
20:23 < jim> I get that, and, I guess "analog" is used to describe (for example) the sound of old synthesizers from (say) the 70s, and they use analog signals (nothing digital) to develop the signal which will eventually be applied to the speakers
20:23 < SporkWitch> funksh0n: from the first analogue data was digitally encoded?
20:23 < milpool> well, there are (were) analogue computers...
20:23 < jml2> funksh0n, you mean when did "digital" become part of computing
20:23 < funksh0n> so an analog signal is 'comprable' to the source signal?
20:23 < ananke> docmur: what about /etc/lvm/archive ?
20:23 < jml2> funksh0n, it's the other way around
20:23 < ananke> funksh0n: you should probably go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_signal
20:24 < hexnewbie> funksh0n: https://www.etymonline.com/word/analogue : “Computing sense, in reference to operating with numbers represented by some measurable quantity (as a slide-rule does; opposed to digital) is recorded from 1946.”
20:24 < funksh0n> hexnewbie: perfect!
20:24 < docmur> anake, the only thing in it is lvm.conf
20:24  * funksh0n hides
20:24 < ananke> docmur: are you even on the system that housed that LVM setup before, or are you in some rescue mode?
20:24 < SporkWitch> jml2: those usually aren't counted since they aren't turing complete, so far as i recall
20:25 < docmur> The LVM was always on this system, I'm running Ubuntu 17.10.
20:25 < docmur> The disk died a while ago, like a few months
20:26 < hexnewbie> Babbage's analytical engine was turing complete, only his earlier analogue computer wasn't. (And obviously, ancient greek computing machines and fancy clocks and astrolabes aren't)
20:26 < SporkWitch> hexnewbie: which lines up with ENIAC, generally regarded as the first computer as we would consider it today
20:26 < newpy> what's the deal with Babbage vs Lovelace?
20:27 < newpy> I hear a lot of stuff re: who made the first computer/language or whatever it was
20:27 < triceratux> jml2: im finally tracking on this dns / dhcp / dnssec / dnsmasq stuff. theres about half a dozen network programs & theyve traditionally put the resolver on the net. but ubuntu 16.04 & later are putting it on localhost although they dont generally rely on systemd at that point http://pastebin.centos.org/700301/raw/
20:27  * triceratux cant believe hed not noticed that before
20:28 < hexnewbie> Now, it wasn't actually *built*, but that didn't prevent anyone from writing programs for it. OK, only he and Lovelace did write programs for it, so maybe some people were prevented from it by common sense, I guess...
20:28 < SporkWitch> newpy: hard to say, given the infestation of academia and wikipedia with SJWs; regardless of the actual facts, you're going to see a push to credit the female
20:29 < SporkWitch> newpy: doesn't mean she doesn't deserve the credit, but it does mean it's hard to find a credible source to make the call
20:29 < newpy> SporkWitch, based on what hexnewbie just said, it seems they actually worked together?
20:29 < djph> SporkWitch: except that it's provable Ada Lovelace wrote the first programs for Babbage's Computing Machine ...
20:30 < newpy> djph, does that make sense? Wouldn't Babbage have "written" something while constructing/testing his machine?
20:30 < djph> Up until, well recently; women were hugely working in mathematics
20:30 < newpy> djph, ie. when mathematics was at the forefront of polity?
20:30 < SporkWitch> djph: if true, awesome; i'm just stating the fact it'd be hard to find impartial references in the current political climate.  Me? I don't give a damn what's between your legs, and the fact that's overemphasized by identity politicians makes it difficult to track down accurate, impartial information
20:30 < funksh0n> Anyone know why dmenu_run doesn't respect my $PATH?  rofi will happily execute scripts in ~/bin but dmenu_run does not.
20:30 < jml2> SporkWitch, a hundred years from now Linux would be considered a derivative of Minix XD
20:30 < djph> newpy: he designed the machine, sure ... *she* recognized the machine could do more than "just maths", and published an algorithm that proved it could be do-able.
20:31 < newpy> djph, ah ic
20:31 < jml2> SporkWitch, that's why I call it GNU/Linux :p
20:31 < jml2> SporkWitch, blame the SJW's again !
20:31 < newpy> djph, how does that differ from godelization?
20:32 < Dagmar> triceratux: I'm a bit baffled as to why the concern about the resolver being on the network.  It's _always_ going to be on the network
20:32 < jml2> Dagmar, DoH !!!
20:32 < djph> newpy: I forget what it was, but IIRC she translated some paper of Babbage's, and added her own example of general programming at the tail end.
20:32 < newpy> djph, n/m godel came after babbage et al
20:32 < Dagmar> Like, if it's *not* on the network it's not going to be doing much hostname resolution
20:32 < newpy> djph, actually I should look up ada lovelace's birthdate too
20:32 < jim> there was Hypatia of Alexandria, a female mathemitician from a very long time ago
20:32 < hexnewbie> Dagmar: My resolver is on a different network than mine
20:32 < triceratux> Dagmar: i dont get it either. if it starts with 127 it can still work, as long as it doesnt end with 53
20:33 < newpy> djph, yea she predates godel as well
20:33 < jim> maybe even BC
20:33 < djph> newpy: December 10, 1815
20:33 < jml2> Dagmar, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-doh-dns-over-https/?include_text=1
20:33  * triceratux even knows what Doh is: DNS over http ftw
20:33 < djph> triceratux: don't do that.
20:34 < hexnewbie> DNS over HTTP is spelled d'oh
20:34 < Dagmar> triceratux: If there's a 127.0.0./8 address involved, it's _still_ going to be on the network.  The 127 address is just another layer of indirection which isn't always going to be welcome
20:34 < jim> oh I see, lots of tor joins
20:34 < djph> Dagmar: you don't need a DNS server on the network that it's resolving hostnames for ...
20:34 < jml2> Dagmar, it is basically dnssec vs dns-over-https , I wonder which would win.. understanding resolv in linux is getting more and more complicating as more client browsers can optionally choose where to use NSS or their own internal dns resolving
20:34 < Dagmar> djph: You do if you don't want people playing silly games with special/reserved hostnames
20:34 < djph> Dagmar: or, did you mean something else by "on the network"
20:34  * jml2 ./whether to use./
20:34 < Dagmar> I can abuse the heck out of mDNS mechanisms
20:35 < jml2> that also adds more confusion
20:35 < Dagmar> ...and WIndows machines have a positively mad number of hostnames they think are special
20:35 < jml2> but can be narrated to being NSS
20:36  * sauvin rofls watching Vala Mal Doran drive a shrink nuts
20:36 < SporkWitch> sauvin: great times :) ♥ Claudia Black
20:36 < sauvin> No kidding... wotta babe!
20:36 < Dagmar> That was a great episode
20:37 < SporkWitch> SG-1 was great and well-concluded; Atlantis was okay, and the ending unforgivable
20:37 < sauvin> Can't say I remember Atlantis well. Frankly, it was a tad boring.
20:38 < SporkWitch> it gets somewhat better later on, but it was never to the standard set by SG-1
20:39 < djph> Always liked her as the Peacekeeper ... whatshername ...
20:39 < Dagmar> Aeryn
20:39 < djph> thatsit!
20:39 < SporkWitch> Aeryn Sun
20:39 < newpy> SporkWitch, Lost unforgivable or BSG unforgivable?
20:40 < Dagmar> Pfft.  Lost's ending was a miracle
20:40 < SporkWitch> newpy: Firefly unforgivable; nothing but loose ends
20:40 < sauvin> Never seen Lost. BSG's ending was (hee hee hee) a deus ex machina.
20:40 < Dagmar> "Wait, you mean you've been going for three whole seasons just making things up without a plan???"
20:40 < SporkWitch> i can't really comment on Lost, they changed its timeslot a season or two in and i lost track, then some jerk i worked with spoiled the big twist for me and i could never bring myself to go back to it
20:40 < SporkWitch> BSG's ending at least ENDED it
20:41 < sauvin> No, it didn't, not if you were following the dialog.
20:41 < Dagmar> Spoiler: Everyone's a Cylon.
20:41 < Dagmar> Everyone.
20:41 < newpy> Lost's ending was just very hamfisted
20:41 < newpy> BSG was an acid trip
20:41 < sauvin> Dagmar, no, it was karmic: "This has happened before, and will happen again."
20:41 < newpy> what did her childhood piano song have to do with the coordinates of the 13th tribe or whatever?
20:41 < zapotah>  sauvin: ++
20:42 < djph> SporkWitch: eh, I never really got into lost
20:42 < newpy> I just lost it at that point
20:42 < SporkWitch> sauvin: i left it feeling largely satisfied.  the religious crap was annoying as hell, but it at least wrapped things up for the most part.  it didn't feel like major stuff that NEEDED to be resolved was unresolved.
20:42 < newpy> djph, I liked season 1 of Lost, and kept watching out of masochism
20:42 < sauvin> I thought Firefly was full of "loose ends" because the series didn't "end", it was *dropped*.
20:42 < djph> ^
20:42 < djph> They tried tying them up in the movie, but even there, it was hamfisted
20:42 < SporkWitch> sauvin: correct, but the comparison stands, that's how much they left unresolved in Atlantis, and that WAS the end of the series.
20:43 < djph> newpy: so you use emacs too?
20:43 < newpy> djph, haha
20:43 < SporkWitch> djph: well the one that was supposed to wrap up atlantis never came out, which makes no sense given the 2 new series that were total flops; if they had the support to do entire new series, wtf didn't they do the wrap-up movie?
20:43 < sauvin> I don't even remember how Atlantic ended, that's how well I remember it. :\
20:43 < SporkWitch> djph: the two to wrap-up SG-1 did an effective job
20:44 < SporkWitch> sauvin: the wraith are still running amok and atlantis is on earth.  Fin.  Basically "wellp, we're back in our galaxy and the wraith can't get here, so eff that galaxy, sucks to be them"
20:44 < djph> SG-1 was a damn good series
20:44 < telmich> good evening everyone
20:45 < sauvin> Good $time_of_day!
20:45 < zapotah> breaking bad was a damn good series
20:45 < newpy> breaking bad was overrated
20:45 < zapotah> sg1 and atlantis were half-baked
20:45 < zapotah> i love both
20:45 < zapotah> and universe
20:45 < telmich> If anyone is good with Linux, there is a pretty cool quiz out, to prove it: https://ungleich.ch/en-us/cms/blog/2018/04/21/ungleich-quiz-v6/
20:45 < zapotah> however heretical that is
20:45 < djph> breaking bad is pretty good.  though I don't watch it all that often
20:46 < dgurney> why does it need to be proven? lol
20:46 < zapotah> telmich: u w0t?
20:46 < sauvin> My proof in how good with Linux I am is in how much I'm not swearing when I try to get stuff done.
20:46 < djph> the netflix Lost in Space reboot is pretty good.  Although they kinda spent a whole season on "a pilot episode"
20:47 < kazdax> i have some C programming experinnce ...i dont understand pointers that well ..should i just use K&R ..i am trying to use the book The linux programming interface and i want to make sure i am ready for that book
20:47 < djph> sauvin: same, heh
20:47 < turbo64> remember in the old days when saying "i don't watch tv" meant you were like intelligent and hip
20:47 < djph> turbo64: no
20:47 < hexnewbie> telmich: Prove it? Why prove it, I know I know everything about Linux. I can put the image in /boot and it's set!
20:47 < newpy> kazdax, what's not to understand about pointers?
20:47 < turbo64> and nowadays movies are all horrible and tv shows are actually good
20:47 < sauvin> By contract, I'm no good with Windows at ALL, and this is borne out by the fact that the things I scream when trying to get stuff done with it make cops cry and puts new cracks in the drywall.
20:47 < turbo64> so now when someone says "i dont watch tv" they just sound stupid
20:47 < sauvin> s/contract/contrast/;
20:48 < dviola> turbo64: I used to prefer watching older movies for that reason
20:48 < turbo64> speaking of which, new season of westworld starts tomorrow i think
20:48 < turbo64> or is it today
20:48 < newpy> tv shows nowadays all have pretensions of intellectualism but they're shit
20:48 < turbo64> nah theres been a lot of great shit
20:48 < turbo64> did you see the new twin peaks season?
20:48 < newpy> cinematography's gotten better
20:48 < sauvin> Pointers are NOT obvious to people with no assembly language background.
20:48 < newpy> I like Atlanta
20:49 < turbo64> the 8th episode of the new season of twin peaks blows away anything ive seen in films or tv in years
20:49 < hexnewbie> Er, they make a billion movies and a million TV shows now. The quantity is so unimaginably big that saying they are good or bad seriously underestimates how many they are.
20:49 < newpy> even if Donald Glover trying to act black can be cringy at times
20:49 < turbo64> atlanta is also good
20:49 < turbo64> newpy: what do you mean act black?
20:49 < turbo64> he is black
20:49 < newpy> turbo64, yea but he was raised by white people iirc
20:49 < turbo64> hes from atlanta
20:49 < newpy> turbo64, like in the last episode when he says "they keep trying to finesse me" it was really forced
20:50 < newpy> it's clear he doesn't actually talk that way
20:50 < sauvin> I love black guys like Denzel Washington and Morgan Freeman. They don't act black or white or anything, they're just GUYS.
20:50 < turbo64> (they act white)
20:50 < newpy> I don't mind "acting black," but it has to be convincing
20:50 < turbo64> sauvin: why is it bad if someone "acts black"
20:50 < d1z> guys what's the best vps out there in which you can create an instance and start it, shut it down at will and only get charged for use?
20:50 < turbo64> god damn bunch of racists in this channel
20:50 < sauvin> turbo64, I didn't say it was bad.
20:51 < turbo64> well you did because you said you love them because they don't act black
20:51 < sauvin> And that'll be the last time you pull the "racist" flag in this channel.
20:51 < newpy> turbo64, well you said they act white
20:51 < turbo64> im not pulling any flag
20:51 < turbo64> what you just said was racist
20:51 < turbo64> and im calling you out on it
20:51 < sauvin> No, if anything, it was humanist.
20:51 < turbo64> ok here ill prove it right now
20:51 < turbo64> what does "acting black" actually mean?
20:51 < turbo64> can you explain that to me
20:51 < newpy> turbo64, first of all denzel talking about black culture (eg. "hot comb") is really cool
20:51 < turbo64> like give me an example of "acting black"
20:52 < newpy> you saying he "acts white" is racist
20:52 < SporkWitch> djph: the handling of the ice in episode one was cringey AF; is this crap ice9?
20:52 < newpy> and you going ape shit is even weirder
20:52 < newpy> turbo64, also since this tends to matter to people like you, I'm a PoC
20:53 < sauvin> What's a PoC?
20:53 < newpy> person of color
20:53 < sauvin> I have colour, I just won't tell you what it is. :D
20:54 < djph> SporkWitch: in Lost in Space? yeah, that was super cringey
20:55 < newpy> sauvin, oh I didn't realize you banned turbo64
20:56 < newpy> I was half expecting him to call me a race traitor
20:56 < sauvin> That was gonna get really hot really fast.
20:56 < djph> SporkWitch: that was about the worst of cringey things (that I remember) -- the acting is a bit cringey for the first couple of eps too; but I think that was more "the actors hadn't hit their stride yet" than anything.
20:56 < djph> newpy: you're a race traitor?  how's that work, you're actually a lizardman?
20:57 < sauvin> I still hate the first couple seasons of ST:TNG for that exact reason: they hadn't gotten their chemistry down yet.
20:57 < newpy> djph, white progressives get mad when I happen to disagree with them
20:57 < rasputozen> every couple days or so all keys will output their normal keycode but with [^ prepended to them, and the only solution is to switch ttys and mash a bunch of keys until it stops on that tty and then log in normally until it happens again some days later
20:57 < rasputozen> ever heard of anything like this?
20:58 < jml2> Tux is black and white LOL
20:58  * jml2 hides XD
20:59 < newpy> is anyone else here disappointed with West World but still hoping s2 turns it around?
20:59 < hexnewbie> rasputozen: Stuck modifier key (press all and try again), or tty left in bad state (run reset).  That's for X, virtual consoles may have different and/or other causes for similar behaviour.
20:59 < rasputozen> hexnewbie: im not running X, just a ttyp
20:59 < sauvin> Put it this way: some of you guys are black, others red, others yellow, yet others white. I have no idea who is who, and frankly couldn't care less. It would be nice if we could all get on board with that.
20:59 < rasputozen> newpy: i never thought westworld was that good
20:59 < hexnewbie> Well, reset is valid for VCs as well, but I don't believe they can have their modifiers stuck
21:00 < newpy> rasputozen, they baited me with their pretensions of grandiose questions like consciousness
21:00 < SporkWitch> djph: there were a handful of other annoying bits, but that took the cake.  the only other thing that bugged me was the random and unnecessary black robinson.  Spend half of it assuming the dirtbag mom cheated on her soldier husband, and then just random "oh i'm from before she met dad" like what? ESTABLISHED CHARACTERS, don't mess with them to suit your racist policitical agenda
21:00 < SporkWitch> djph: at least the sex-swap on smith works, given the plot on this one
21:01 < rasputozen> newpy: didnt abrams do that with lost too?
21:01 < rasputozen> hexnewbie: okay ill look into that thanks
21:01 < djph> SporkWitch: yeah, they could've done better (or explained that in a flashback ... )
21:01 < hexnewbie> rasputozen: But your symptoms do sound like a stuck modifier key.
21:02 < rasputozen> hexnewbie: i agree
21:02 < djph> SporkWitch: I'm not so sure how I feel about Smith.  I don't remember the doctor ever being so outright *malevolent*
21:02 < SporkWitch> djph: they definitely could have done better, but at its core it was just unnecessary, except in the sense of being an expedient to have a black character in season 2, rather than just working in, say, vijay or someone ending up on board
21:02 < SporkWitch> djph: the doctor was always ultimately self-serving, but yeah, this one is an outright sociopath
21:02 < sauvin> Stuck modifier key, modifier key contact blown or fried, or (unlikely) a munged keyboard ISR.
21:02 < newpy> rasputozen, to me Lost started as more of a character-driven thing
21:03 < newpy> rasputozen, it created pretensions of mystery later which it failed to deliver on ofc
21:03 < rasputozen> newpy: idk sounds like the same formula to me
21:03 < newpy> rasputozen, well I actually care about the question of consciousness, so westworld baited me way harder
21:03 < djph> SporkWitch: yeah, I mean; I remember Smith as being a bit self-serving ... but not so much as to actively try to cause harm to the others in the craft.
21:03 < hexnewbie> If it says mystery on the box, I read it as warning and stay away.
21:03 < newpy> but yea I see how it's the same formula/structure
21:04 < rasputozen> hexnewbie: smart
21:04 < newpy> I didn't really care about the mystery in Lost, it actually annoyed me from the start
21:04 < newpy> "monster in the jungle" immediately took me out of the story
21:04 < rasputozen> cant think of an abrams film/show i liked
21:04 < rasputozen> he seems overly pandering
21:05 < sauvin> "pandering"?
21:05 < newpy> this might be heresy, but I actually liked the first star trek reboot movie
21:05 < sauvin> I hated it, actually. I don't like any of the most recent ST.
21:05 < djph> newpy: "monster in the jungle" can be a decent hook... but it has to be done *right*.
21:05 < rasputozen> yea just devoid of vision but inserts a lot of fan service for the lowest common denominator
21:06 < djph> Sure, it was a decent ~action~ movie.  But it wasn't a good "ST Movie".  It's kinda like the "fixed(tm)" version of Ep IV, where Han breaks his neck to miss getting shot.
21:06 < newpy> djph, yea but in the case of Lost I was really into a "regular" plot about the interaction of good characters crash landing on an island
21:06 < djph> newpy: fair enough
21:07 < rasputozen> to me abrams wants to make a movie to fulfill an obligation, not because he has something to say
21:07 < newpy> sauvin, rasputozen, I think it was just the style people liked
21:07 < rasputozen> as much as
21:07 < newpy> like kirk stealing a car and bailing as it went over a cliff
21:07 < newpy> that's just good eats
21:08 < rasputozen> as much as Mother was meh to me, i at least respect aronofsky for his commitment to his vision
21:08 < sauvin> The only thing about the new ST that got my motor running was the idea of Spock and Uhura closing all the doors and windows and closing all the blinds.
21:08 < newpy> Jennifer Lawrence was visibly uncomfortable as Aronofsky explained his bible metaphor in an interview
21:08 < newpy> it was so stupid
21:09 < rasputozen> he does make movies for a reason though, which is why i find his movies watchable
21:10 < newpy> requiem was formative for me
21:10 < newpy> I actually skipped the Wrestler, no idea why I need to get around to it
21:10 < rasputozen> yea i consider that agood movie
21:11 < telmich> zapotah: ah?
21:11 < telmich> hexnewbie: that's a good start
21:11 < rasputozen> the wrestler was almost like a chick flick for dudes
21:11 < newpy> I'm not a huge wwe fan
21:11 < newpy> I watched some as a kid way back
21:11 < newpy> yokozuna etc
21:11 < rasputozen> i thought it was good for what it was
21:12 < newpy> I didn't buy into the whole "actually wwe is intelligent" meme after that wrestling isn't wrestling video
21:12 < newpy> seemed like lipstick on a pig
21:12 < newpy> "10 reasons why jerry springer is actually deeper than you think!"
21:12 < newpy> next video by max landis
21:13 < Loshki> If WWE were intelligent, it wouldn't be on the SyFy channel...
21:13 < rasputozen> i mean anything is as deep as you want to be if we want to get technical
21:13 < newpy> rasputozen, don't go all heidegger on me
21:14 < rasputozen> you can watch something like wwe and just focus on psychologizing the peoplin involved and find some enjoyment from that
21:14 < newpy> that's actually a huge problem I have with contemporary analysis, people are ascribing all sorts of genius to recent works
21:14 < newpy> when if you actually listen to the creator's interviews, it's gibberish
21:14 < rasputozen> the absurdity that theres these huge guys that are paid to put on a drama for 10 year olds
21:15 < newpy> like, I liked The Leftovers, but the creator's interpretation of the ending is idiotic
21:15 < newpy> nonetheless, I liked the ending with the interpretation I happened to have of it
21:16 < newpy> but saying I liked it somehow confers compliment to the creator now?
21:16 < rasputozen> im not ascribing genius, im basically saying you can see pictures in formika
21:16 < newpy> that's why I like Pauline Kael's take, screw auter theory
21:17 < newpy> rasputozen, yea I didn't mean you specifically
21:17 < newpy> I just meant people say "wow X creator is a genius" when no, it's actually the analyst you should be admiring
21:17 < newpy> eg. slavoj zizek
21:17 < rasputozen> yea i know what you mean
21:18 < rasputozen> lol 'actually the analyst you should be admiring' good poing
21:18 < telmich> wooohoooo
21:18 < rasputozen> and i think people do do that
21:18 < telmich> Somebody actually made it into level2!
21:18 < rasputozen> even if subconscious
21:19 < rasputozen> how popular would The Room be if not for creative analysts?
21:20 < rasputozen> maybe thats why its so 'genius', because it is such a feast for analysis
21:20  * sauvin swears at erlang
21:20 < newpy> oh god, The Room is particularly disgusting, because the creator clearly didn't even intend to create schlock
21:21 < SporkWitch> people still use erlang? :P
21:21 < SporkWitch> rasputozen: behold post-modernism: you can make nothing into anything
21:21 < rasputozen> newpy: as a counterpoint, could The Room ever be created intentionally?
21:21 < newpy> eh, I don't think you can blame schlock on postmodernism
21:21 < newpy> it's more like a game of where's waldo for cinephiles
21:22 < newpy> rasputozen, well I think neil bream is intentional (or at least I hope)
21:22 < newpy> err, *breen
21:22 < rasputozen> im not familiar
21:23 < newpy> it's hilarious
21:23 < newpy> I don't know if I'm allowed to link youtube here?
21:23 < rasputozen> i can search its no problem
21:23 < newpy> there's a good video by YMS
21:24 < newpy> "YMS Neil Breen" should pull it up
21:24 < newpy> some of the stuff in the movies is subtle, but so stupid it would have to be on purpose (one would hope)
21:24 < Pentode> i don't think you'll get annihilated for posting a youtube link as long as it's somewhere close to being on topic..
21:25 < newpy> pentode, it's obviously nowhere close to on-topic :D
21:25 < newpy> if the topic is linux that is
21:25 < triceratux> topic ? whatz a topic ?
21:25 < rasputozen> i mean you could look at Wisseau as a mutation in filmography's evolution, even if unintentional it may have still furthered the artform
21:25 < Pentode> loosely it seems sometimes, but yeah. linux. ;p
21:26 < rasputozen> its undeniable that that movie has influenced quite a few comedians since
21:26 < SporkWitch> off-topic has always been tolerated provided it doesn't disrupt topical conversation / cause questions to go missed
21:26 < newpy> rasputozen, I don't think it pushed the medium forward at all though, it's just a great example of a pre-existing genre
21:27 < rasputozen> newpy: i mean the question is still valid though, to what extent can we truly praise a mistake?
21:28 < newpy> rasputozen, well we can praise the piece imo
21:28 < rasputozen> or more likely the question is just as absurd as believing you can see a face in formika
21:28 < newpy> I'm just conflicted b/c wisseau gets to make bank
21:28 < rasputozen> or a face at all
21:29 < nobody> hi everyone :)
21:29 < rasputozen> aaaaaaaaand now were shifted into full blown nihilism :)
21:29 < mawk> who wants to try my CTF challenge ?
21:29 < hexnewbie> nobody: I guess you like The Room?
21:30 < SporkWitch> Mr. Nobody was a great movie
21:30 < newpy> SporkWitch, I didn't like the ending iirc, it's been a while
21:30 < rasputozen> newpy: is reality imitating the absurdity in art or art the absurdity in reality?
21:30 < SporkWitch> newpy: been a while here too, but i remember enjoying it greatly
21:30 < newpy> rasputozen, neither in that case :)
21:30 < SporkWitch> newpy: (as a whole, not necessarily the ending)
21:30 < newpy> SporkWitch, I remember intensely enjoying it until the end
21:30 < newpy> but that's common fare for me
21:31 < rasputozen> yea if a movie doesnt tie off its loose ends by the finish its dead to me
21:31 < SporkWitch> it's definitely points against in that case, but some are good enough to survive some flaws
21:32 < rasputozen> at that point you failed, you made a movie before you finished the script
21:32 < newpy> well it seems to me a lot of contemporary stuff uses "big ideas" as a prop
21:32 < newpy> but they have nothing to say about it
21:33 < rasputozen> and then next thing you know you have super popular directors like abrams that make a career out of knotted string
21:33 < SporkWitch> rasputozen: not always; you start to cut some slack after watching enough director's cuts.  Sometimes it's not their fault.  Sometimes it is (if you have a 2+ hour runtime, it's probably not the studio's fault you screwed up)
21:33 < newpy> I mean what does it say when the most interesting statement re: time travel recently came from an anime
21:34 < rasputozen> newpy: what anime was that?
21:34 < newpy> stein's gate
21:34 < newpy> with the caveat that you have to be able to ignore japanese weirdness
21:34 < rasputozen> SporkWitch: ive seen enough bad films at this point to not give directors that benefit of the doubt anymore
21:35 < newpy> I wouldn't mind spoiling it if no one here cares enough to see stein's gate, b/c the point is more interesting than the series imo
21:35 < SporkWitch> rasputozen: i've seen a lot of okay films that became great after being given an extended / director's cut
21:35 < rasputozen> go for it i hate watching shows/movies for the most part
21:36 < newpy> basically it has to do with the grandfather paradox
21:36 < newpy> and how the protagonist gets around it
21:36 < rasputozen> SporkWitch: thats true, the directors cut of the original star wars would have probably been unwatchable
21:36 < newpy> the issue being, if you change the past, you then remove the impetus for you to go back in time to change the past in the first place
21:36 < rasputozen> i think star wars didnt suffer from a bad script though
21:37 < SporkWitch> rasputozen: one of my go-to examples is Kingdom of Heaven.  The theatrical cut was okay, but the extended cut is absolutely amazing, IMO
21:37 < newpy> so a character dies and the protagonist goes back in time, saves her, and then stages her death to fool the world
21:37 < rasputozen> SporkWitch: yea im sure theres exceptions, i guess im mostly speaking for the state its in today for blockbusters
21:38 < newpy> tl;dr anyway
21:38 < SporkWitch> rasputozen: today's "blockbusters" are almost universally mediocre, and that's the good ones
21:38 < wilbert> anyone know of a good spot I can find a list of system calls that allocate a new file descriptors?
21:38 < rasputozen> newpy: yea i see what its getting at, and is indeed interesting
21:38 < SporkWitch> wilbert: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=list+of+linux+system+calls
21:39 < rasputozen> you always here the excuse as well 'its made for kids why are you so judgemental'
21:39 < newpy> I think blockbusters are the way they are b/c of the size of the market
21:39 < rasputozen> yea lets condition our kids to be satisfied with unresolved plot holes
21:40 < newpy> there is a certain type of film you have to make if you want billions of people to all be willing to watch it
21:40 < rasputozen> thats true
21:40 < rasputozen> still i thought avatar was good even though everyone railed it for having a weak plot
21:40 < rasputozen> i disagree, it was a simple plot well executed
21:41 < rasputozen> the plot was fine
21:41 < newpy> I think they should have named the main character Pocahontas
21:41 < rasputozen> if you do something simple like that you better nail it in acting, set design, pacing, etc
21:41 < newpy> just in case anyone didn't get it
21:42 < rasputozen> yea im not giving it awards for plot originality
21:42  * sauvin swears some more at erlang
21:42 < sauvin> newpy, what does "b/c" mean? Is that an algebraic expression?
21:42 < newpy> I think you're right though, Avatar is the only blockbuster whose sequel I'm remotely curious about
21:42 < rasputozen> just that the plot was never an obvious distraction
21:42 < dviola> sauvin: the people at #elixir won't be amused :P
21:42 < newpy> sauvin, are you messing with me? :)
21:43 < newpy> b/c = because
21:43 < sauvin> No. My first language isn't English, and the same can be said for hundreds of people in this channel.
21:43 < newpy> ah k
21:43 < dviola> my first language isn't english also
21:43 < sauvin> Please use understandable English.
21:44 < rasputozen> 'b/c' is understandable english
21:44 < sauvin> What I see is either an algebraic expression or a "beh ceh", which makes no sense.
21:44 < newpy> "b/c of the size of the market" does sound like a math problem :D
21:44 < rasputozen> you know things like "don't" and "won't" right? its basically a contraction like them
21:45 < newpy> yes "b/c" is a contraction of "because"
21:45 < sauvin> Not a "contraction" taught in school. If you're so damn lazy you can't press another couple of keys to make yourself clearly understood, maybe you shouldn't be using Linux at all.
21:45 < newpy> it should be taught in school along with lol and brb
21:46 < newpy> how do we expect children to make it in today's competitive environment otherwise
21:46 < newpy> :)
21:46 < dviola> "b/c"? why are you dividing those variables?
21:46 < sauvin> Unfortunately (in my case), 'brb' and 'lol' have been around just about forever. :\
21:46 < baxx> is SED basically an interface for regex or something? I've not used it.
21:46 < SporkWitch> baxx: man sed
21:46 < azarus> baxx: it edits streams
21:47 < sauvin> baxx, sed is a "stream editor". SporkWitch, "rtfm" is not automatically good advice.
21:47 < azarus> Stream EDitor
21:47 < SporkWitch> it is when it answers the question
21:47 < SporkWitch> (in the first paragraph, even)
21:47 < baxx> SporkWitch:  no it doesn't
21:47 < baxx> I know it's a stream editor, and i basically asked whether it was based around regex
21:48 < sauvin> baxx, did you try reading the man page? If it wasn't clear, what did you not understand?
21:48 < azarus> baxx: it can do regex, yes
21:48 < baxx> sauvin: yeah - my question is whether sed is pretty much all regex or if that's just a small part of it
21:48 < sauvin> Dunno about "small"; I've never used sed without using regex.
21:48 < armin> baxx: there's #sed on freenode.
21:49 < baxx> sauvin: yeah, this is what I wasn't sure of. Whether it's (basically) an interface for regex
21:49 < sauvin> In fact, I have a question: is sed *without* regex even possible?
21:49 < baxx> sauvin: :')
21:49 < sauvin> It *uses* regex. It *is* an editor.
21:49 < sauvin> OK, that's it.
21:49 < baxx> ok you don't know what i mean
21:49 < SporkWitch> sauvin: i suppose you could use it with a fixed string
21:50 < SporkWitch> yay!
21:50 < sauvin> Too mcuh noise.
21:50 < azarus> theoretically sed is a programming language
21:50 < mawk> if swap+ram is lower than the size of a file I want to mmap would that make an error ?
21:50 < armin> sauvin: did you double-check your hostmask in that ban?
21:50 < rasputozen> so ##linux should language police all contractions to appease a smaller subset of the community?
21:50 < azarus> e.g. '10q' prints the first 10 lines of input
21:50 < azarus> and that isn't regex, afaik
21:50 < baxx> rasputozen: what do you mean?
21:51 < newpy> rasputozen, it is not our place to question the +o
21:51 < SporkWitch> rasputozen: you aren't talking about contractions, you're talking about specific regional short-hand
21:51 < rasputozen> b/c isnt even regional
21:51 < sauvin> armin: good yell.
21:51 < rasputozen> its basically 'internet slang' at this point
21:52 < rasputozen> are we allowed to talk in other languages here?
21:52 < SporkWitch> rasputozen: internet slang isn't welcome here either
21:52 < sauvin> rasputozen, generally, no.
21:52 < SporkWitch> rasputozen: this is an english-only channel
21:53 < sauvin> English vis-a-vis du jure or de facto common usage. :D
21:53 < baxx> SporkWitch: rasputozen https://freenode.linux.community/channel-rules/
21:53 < rasputozen> i mean its your channel, you can moderate uses of 'b/c' if you want, just strikes me as a bit machiavellian
21:54 < jml2> baxx, "man intro"
21:54 < SporkWitch> baxx: don't know why you're pinging me on that, i'm well aware of freenode's policiees
21:54 < newpy> I doubt it's machiavellian in sauvin's case
21:54 < SporkWitch> s/ciee/cie/
21:54 < sauvin> rasputozen, it might be, but a question I have is just "minor" is the population in this channel for whom English is not a first or even second language.
21:54 < baxx> SporkWitch: i assumed you weren't as you hadn't suggested they read them, sorry
21:54 < SporkWitch> baxx: they weren't really relevant; op is another spelling of god
21:54 < sauvin> (droppped a "how" from there somehow)
21:55 < m`r_white^rabbit> 笑
21:56 < revel> m`r_white^rabbit: Is that one of those characters that pops up every so often that messes with Apple users?
21:56 < m`r_white^rabbit> revel, no, it's the Japanese and Chinese equivalent of LOL
21:56 < revel> I thought that was "ror"
21:56 < rasputozen> i think a better use of moderation would be on semantics, you can have hall the spelling and word-adherance you want but if your semantics are off then you still wont make much sense
21:57 < m`r_white^rabbit> though lololol can also be wwwwww in Japanese netspeak
21:57  * SporkWitch starts the timer
21:57 < revel> And among weeaboos.
21:57 < baxx>   哈哈哈 < is usually used for lol fwiw
21:57 < sauvin> revel, that's FRIED RICE, you PLICK!
21:57 < m`r_white^rabbit> baxx, maybe that is more common in Chinese
21:58 < newpy> baxx, I think that's just gibberish on my client, which alt-codes did you use?
21:58 < m`r_white^rabbit> but 笑 is used a lot in Japan, sometimes surrounded by (笑）
21:58 < revel> It looks like a Chinese man with a stereotypical conical straw hat holding a stick.
21:58 < revel> newpy:
21:58 < m`r_white^rabbit> usually at the end of a sentence
21:58 < baxx> m`r_white^rabbit: yes. newpy idk, just used the chinese. hhhh is often used for lol
21:58 < revel> 3 of them, in fact.
21:58 < newpy> revel, I see blank space after my nick :P
21:59 < revel> No, 哈哈哈
21:59 < revel> That does.
21:59 < sauvin> I sometimes see Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking folk using "kkk" insteadl.
21:59 < sauvin> instead, even.
21:59 < baxx> newpy: you can use 55555 if your client isn't displaying the characters :')
21:59 < newpy> revel, oh you were alerting me after the fact, got it
21:59 < SporkWitch> sauvin: #thatsracist
21:59 < revel> lol
22:00 < sauvin> Aparently, the 'k' sound sounds to them a lot like laughter.
22:00 < SporkWitch> sauvin: clearly they're closet nazis
22:00 < newpy> I see "jajaja" usually from experience
22:00 < revel> newpy: That's Brazilians.
22:00 < rasputozen> sauvin: what do your var names look like and how many underscores on average?
22:00 < newpy> revel, ah I thought that counted as portuguese speaking
22:00 < m`r_white^rabbit> some use 66666 i forget which nation
22:00 < sauvin> Yeah, I see "jajaja" a lot, and what I "hear" when I see it is "yahyahyah". Go figger.
22:00 < baxx> m`r_white^rabbit: chinese, liuliuliuliu
22:01 < revel> Right, we weren't only talking about the Spanish.
22:01 < revel> sauvin: Yalapeño.
22:01 < sauvin> rasputozen, what do my "varnames" have to do with anything. You keep your eyes OFF my "varnames", you PERVERT!
22:01 < m`r_white^rabbit> is anyone here using a console/curses based irc client like weechat
22:01 < sauvin> revel, I'll go one up on you and say "yalapegno". :D
22:01 < rasputozen> sauvin: gimme your var names :)
22:01 < baxx> m`r_white^rabbit: emacs
22:01 < SporkWitch> m`r_white^rabbit: If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later
22:02 < m`r_white^rabbit> baxx, do control characters bodge your display
22:02 < m`r_white^rabbit> one time i piped the output of /dev/urandom into irc, and a friend at the other end using weechat had a totally clusterfucked display from it
22:02 < baxx> m`r_white^rabbit: what like chinese characters? (Oh, I should note that I'm using GUI emacs :S )
22:02 < m`r_white^rabbit> due to control characters etc
22:02 < m`r_white^rabbit> no I mean like linefeed, bell, escape, etc
22:03 < sauvin> "bodge"... wonderful word. Sounds salacious and maybe just a bit nasty...
22:03 < m`r_white^rabbit> special control charactesr
22:03 < m`r_white^rabbit> *characters
22:03 < baxx> m`r_white^rabbit: not afaik, though you're welcome to test (unless I'd have noticed so far, in which case the answer is no)
22:04 < m`r_white^rabbit> i guess it's kind of like fuzzing due to using /dev/urandom to generate output
22:04 < newpy> I'm actually curious which irc client people prefer
22:05 < baxx> newpy: erc on emacs is, i think, pretty nice. I use spacemacs, and so it's everything in one place ( though the rub is I don't know how everything works... i can live with that though )
22:05 < SporkWitch> one of these days maybe emacs will add an editor :P
22:05 < baxx> SporkWitch: vim keys are good in it :') I tried atom, their vim keys were awful.
22:05 < sauvin> There was a time I liked emacs a lot, even though I didn't know more than maybe a dozen key combos.
22:05 < m`r_white^rabbit> è215vm|ÇÊ]iÔ7^0 ŒšbD<­£GƒÖ¡]Óµ©í]»WÊú(Õg­ŠýNœ”Ö
22:06  * sauvin hands m`r_white^rabbit a mop
22:06 < SporkWitch> sauvin: so the bare minimum to save and exit? :P
22:06 < baxx> m`r_white^rabbit: no idea what that is, but my client hasn't crashed.
22:06 < revel> m`r_white^rabbit: Was that not UTF-8?
22:06 < sauvin> SporkWitch, yeah. If I'm not mistaken, ^K to wipe a line, ^Y to restore it.
22:06 < m`r_white^rabbit> è215vm|ÇÊ]iÔ7^0 ŒšbD<­£GƒÖ¡]Óµ©í]»WÊú(Õg­ŠýNœ”Ö
22:06 < m`r_white^rabbit> ØS{Ÿ)
22:06 < m`r_white^rabbit> Þå&š0luƒ€3eŸHÎÍÓükdé
22:06 < m`r_white^rabbit> Ljn›À|ŸC[*!Ì\€û#rc”â=†)‹r]°¹À:¹ºÇÝß;1I7!·jZ•'›1ÎC¡g㜯Rl^ó;݂ø›9DpmXÀÑ#ltG®Kêç*:ëâS®/ª3µ‚?z&øÙë?ÀàʘLن=§ ì›Ð	·Ö‘Hp‡«ÛF;OÊ7•òäSw pf¶ei–ªgJkŸ?.Ê\kv²Ò‹ŽÆg•®0èî¬Ã±Abãùsˆ	†Ð‘Ђ:Y‚RâK1ív7‚áK	T4#w“8¬‡Ÿñé w"Á¡wÑKšÁj	ÛÀšù±=ŠœïVŽK©FöÁ…*@SÇTƍe‹51ÍaAéÏ8L…ŽµØû3ß©d™üÞaôÔmŸz#
22:06 < revel> ^U
22:06 < m`r_white^rabbit> Ÿ^Ñ¿zNMžDßç`wbaQ¬­øÉz\f‚ÏßÐ,SñG6
22:06 < m`r_white^rabbit> Ðîcy™`؋T×IÙDUYÚç]#ÇäØÜ*ÊwÁJ²‘Ä6SØrŠJÅkW™íˆŽ~±Xï€?™VÛ@<.n[Õd^ß+•ì×K3·¥àۉ
22:06 < m`r_white^rabbit> sorry
22:06 < SporkWitch> ....
22:06 < revel> It's ^K in nano
22:06 < sauvin> m`r_white^rabbit, ain't funny no more. Stop.
22:07 < SporkWitch> kill it with fire!
22:07 < m`r_white^rabbit> i will stop the experiment now
22:07 < revel> And it's ^U to restore it in nano :D
22:07 < m`r_white^rabbit> i think i hit a lucky random combination before, not sure which though
22:07 < m`r_white^rabbit> but it broke all the curses graphics
22:07 < m`r_white^rabbit> at the receiving end
22:07 < sauvin> Yeah, that LOOKED like graphic cursing!
22:07 < lukey_> m`r_white^rabbit: Nothing crashed, in fact you summoned be2pal here
22:08 < baxx> m`r_white^rabbit: fwiw https://i.imgur.com/V6Wa1uS.png , not sure if that's of interest
22:08 < revel> Beelzepal?
22:09 < m`r_white^rabbit> baxx, cheers
22:10 < jnewt> anyone know why nemo would only preview some thumbnails? (details at: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1026723/nemo-doesnt-preview-all-thumbnails-and-its-not-size-related )  If there is a better channel for this, let me know (trying #ubuntu already)
22:11 < sauvin> jnewt, would #nemomobile be relevant?
22:12 < sauvin> dviola, elrang is my first functional language if you don't count lisp. It's... different.
22:13 < jnewt> sauvin, nope, that's a distro, i'm having trouble with the file manager
22:13 < dviola> sauvin: I see
22:14 < sauvin> Functional programming in perl is perfectly possible and actually relatively easy, but it's a lot wordier, and erlang's tin advertises some advantages that perl can't.
22:14 < sauvin> But... it's different.
22:17 < jnewt> anyone know why I can't open files with libreoffice from network locations shared by samba?   no problems with windows (mostly .xlsx files).  copying to local and then opening works fine. error is something like "basic input / output error"
22:17 < MrElendig> check dmesg
22:18 < SporkWitch> pretty common issue trying to stream files
22:18 < dviola> sauvin: I heard good things about the elixir language, it's built on top of the erlang VM
22:18 < newpy> dviola, how does it fare speedwise compared to java/c/etc?
22:18 < dviola> not sure but I think it's popular in the ruby community
22:19 < newpy> that's not a plus in my book haha
22:19 < jnewt> MrElendig, me?  nothing in dmesg.
22:19 < dviola> newpy: why not?
22:19 < newpy> I hate the way they name everything
22:19 < newpy> rubyists, pythonistas, etc
22:20 < newpy> I think the root cause is calling modules "gems"
22:20 < newpy> that pun doomed them
22:20 < SporkWitch> not the fact that everything needs user-specific installs? honestly it's the weird way you have to do everything with ruby that drives me nuts; install a damn package like a sane program
22:20 < newpy> SporkWitch, I never got that far with ruby
22:21 < newpy> I just checked the forums I would have to use for support and noped out
22:21 < sauvin> Years ago, I tried to learn ruby, but couldn't find any English documentation. It was all Japanese.
22:21 < Psi-Jack> sauvin: These days, the documentation is pretty thorough, in English. ;)
22:21 < SporkWitch> i've started to tolerate node.js
22:21 < Psi-Jack> sauvin: But I know the feeling, I had the same issue.
22:22 < newpy> I do have that same itch most programmers do though, the notion that somewhere out there exists the perfect language
22:22 < zapotah> theres a very "famous" network guy who did a config management system in ruby
22:22 < zapotah> i still reprimand him for his choice
22:22 < newpy> SporkWitch, that's odd considering your stance on sjw's ;p
22:22 < sauvin> There is no perfect language, but there ARE languages that fit better with how the individual thinks. For me, the Wirth family of languages *used* to be the cat's meow, but now they just get in my way.
22:22 < SporkWitch> i don't get it...
22:22 < newpy> SporkWitch, node.js is infested iirc
22:22 < zapotah> he thinks its still the only lang that the damn thing should be implemented in
22:22  * azarus had his intro to programming with Python, is now learning C
22:22 < sauvin> "infested"?
22:23 < zapotah> who am i to argue
22:23 < zapotah> but still
22:23 < azarus> (also C#, ugh)
22:23 < zapotah> ruby...
22:23 < armin> zapotah: you mean puppet?
22:23 < SporkWitch> newpy: ah; wouldn't know, i've just been tolerating it because it installs and works mostly normal, and a tool i need is written in it
22:23 < newpy> sauvin, some political types tried to hijack node.js, tried to fork node.js when that failed, then pouted for a bit
22:23 < zapotah> armin: nay
22:23 < sauvin> I've always thought of perl as being close to ideal for administration.
22:23 < revel> Psi-Jack: Hey, remember when we talked about letter drives and stuff?
22:23 < micros> hello. i am trying to compile PCRE (cross compile for ARM) but the make file is complaining that the 'me tool' is not present.  Anyone know what that tool is?  Its name is too vague and generates so many google / apt-cache results.  thanks.
22:23 < zapotah> armin: though im fairly sure thats where it got its roots
22:23 < Psi-Jack> revel: ... Maaayyyybe..?
22:23 < SporkWitch> sauvin: python has been overtaking perl in recent years, since the ecosystem caught up
22:23 < armin> zapotah: so what is it?
22:23 < revel> Psi-Jack: Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_(computing)#Absolute_and_relative_paths
22:24 < jml2> micros, the "me tool" ?
22:24 < sauvin> revel: and?
22:24 < newpy> yea python is my go too, seems to be used by every industry
22:24 < newpy> *go to
22:24 < revel> \\?\[server]\[sharename]\ is valid for Windoze
22:24 < sauvin> It is. And?
22:24 < revel> Doesn't just have to be C:\ or some other letter drive.
22:24 < micros> jml2 - yes.  in quotes "me" tool. never heard of it.
22:24 < revel> Nothing else.
22:24 < jml2> micros, you sure it's not something like "m4" ?
22:24 < SporkWitch> yes, we know windows has retarded filesystem organization; what does this have to do with linux?
22:24 < zapotah> armin: oxidized
22:25 < micros> from the make file: "echo "To configure ${NAME}, the \"me\" tool is required. You can continue with a" >&2"
22:25 < revel> Just ran into that while looking for info on something else.
22:25 < micros> and goes on to say you can use a default configuration with make if its not available.
22:25 < jml2> micros, what are you trying to compile?
22:25 < jml2> micros, just pcre?
22:26 < zapotah> armin: the guy doing it is certainly a genius in his own field
22:26 < azarus> programming languages don't really matter much, it is what you do with them that matters
22:27 < micros> yes. just pcre
22:27 < newpy> azarus, eh I think there are real concerns with readability, functionality, speed, ease of use, etc
22:27 < Psi-Jack> revel: Heh, mm'kay?
22:27 < Psi-Jack> heh
22:27 < azarus> newpy: yes, of course, but don't spend too much time on it
22:27 < micros> My approach:    ./configure --enable-libmount=no --cache-file=arm-linux.cache --build=x86-64-linux-gnu --host=arm-linux --target=arm-linux --prefix=/home/developer/pcre_out --with-pcre=system && make
22:28 < azarus> rewriting programs if they're designed well isn't that big of a deal
22:28 < azarus> (sadly, few programs are)
22:28 < micros> which generates that error
22:28 < newpy> azarus, I like to avoid bikeshedding, but I think the arms race phenomenon doesn't get enough play
22:29 < newpy> ie. if pepsi and coke both stopped advertising, their sales would remain relatively constant, but if one buys an ad, the other must also to retain the status quo, leading to ballooning ad budgets
22:29 < newpy> azarus, likewise if I don't talk about readability much, then the army of people trying to turn all code into ee cummings poems win
22:29 < azarus> In my eyes, "modern" system programming languages like Go, Rust etc. are all bloated and just no good alternative to C.
22:29 < newpy> I still prefer C where possible, but interpreted languages are so much better for prototyping
22:30 < azarus> Agreed.
22:30 < SporkWitch> prototype in python, port to C
22:30 < azarus> Good idea :)
22:30 < newpy> SporkWitch, ideally yes but usually by the time you're done it's not worth translating to C
22:30 < micros> newpy - i agree, BUT, from a production point of view, C/C++ are very error prone and have a giant cost associated with them compared to newer languages.  I myself am a C person and love it.
22:30 < newpy> so the interpreted language wins out
22:30 < azarus> newpy: depends
22:31 < newpy> micros, error prone?
22:31 < azarus> sometimes yes, the python prototype is good 'nuff, but sometimes it just isn't
22:31 < SporkWitch> newpy: if that's the case either it didn't need to be written in a lower-level language to begin with, or you're writing more than you need in python.  You prototype alogrithms and logic you're unsure of in python, test, port to C, keep writing C until something you're unsure of, rinse and repeat
22:31 < newpy> azarus, well usually that means calling a bit of C code from your python codebase
22:31 < newpy> but rarely have I seen people port the entire thing to C
22:31 < newpy> SporkWitch, ah
22:32 < newpy> I could see that working, it's just so convenient to be able to immediately run code whenever you need, I like to stay in that sphere
22:33 < azarus> I like the concept of Rust, but I don't like that it doesn't have standards behind it
22:33 < newpy> but yea, that doesn't work if you actually need C speed
22:33 < micros> newpy - yes, the inherent design of C/C++ (though the model in CPP has been improved in more recent releases by virtue of smart pointers and other helpful constructs), but the fact it, null, dangling pointers, other memory allocation related items ultimately lead to higher defect counts in complex projects.
22:33 < newpy> micros, that's true of old C code, but it should no longer be the case
22:34 < SporkWitch> stop writing bad code
22:34 < micros> sometimes resulting in millions of dollars of corrective action that could be mitigated by a different choice of language. However, at the expense of performance in many cases.  Of course, also consider what people are learning in school and wonder if we should be pushing toward new languages in embedded.
22:34 < micros> of course, c still dominates
22:34 < newpy> micros, it's true that C still gives you enough rope to hang yourself with, but that means you're hiring the wrong people
22:34 < jim> one thing C doesn't have, is the kind of object system that languages like python, perl and others have, and (unless the programmer writes it) C doesn;t have the basic memory allocation system that would supoort it
22:35 < micros> I work for a pretty large software house and our products are probably 30M lines of code, much of which comes from 3rd parties, BUT we still have hundreds of C/C++ develoeprs contributing 8M lines or so.
22:35 < newpy> jim, you mean introspection?
22:35 < SporkWitch> jim: struct would like a word, please
22:35 < azarus> boehm-gc is pretty handy for C/C++ projects
22:35 < micros> fact is, most of the developers are sub-par, despite being the best one can get given product schedule ramp up/down timing
22:36 < micros> some developers are GREAT but there arent enough of them to product against the ones that arent rockstars and have average skills as well as average cost
22:36 < newpy> micros, I find that tends to be a social problem
22:36 < micros> *protect
22:36 < newpy> people like to help co-workers, and they don't like to rat each other out
22:36 < android_vm> I've been trying for 2 hours now to fix this problem. I have an Android VM setup within VMware Workstation but when I use vga=ask, all of the resolutions don't show up. I googled & found this https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/416088/vmware-androidx86-vga-ask-missing-resolutions/416672#416672 but I don't understand the instructions. If anyone could help, it would be nice...
22:36 < newpy> so you have one guy usually doing the work for ten other people
22:36 < newpy> ie. they ask how to do X, guy does their work for them
22:36 < MrElendig> android_vm: vga=ask is limited to whatever the vesabios provides
22:36 < jim> yeah I get that, C has structs, but still lacks the system for allocation and freeing of dynamic memory objects (again, unless the programmer adds them)
22:37 < micros> well, we code review using an expensive tool. fact is, the BEST people arent reviewing everyone; they simply cant as there arent enough of them to go around.  So average people review average coders
22:37 < SporkWitch> the fact of the matter is that you're not going to be writing high-performance programs in vb.net or python; there's a reason C is still king, and that is because it's necessary to get the most out of your hardware
22:37 < MrElendig> use kms instead
22:37 < micros> SporkWitch - exactly
22:37 < SporkWitch> jim: which you should be doing when building your structs
22:37 < SporkWitch> those higher level languages are also going to be innately inefficient because you AREN"T controlling anything under the hood
22:37 < MrElendig> SporkWitch: there are languages that basically give you C performance without all the pitfalls though
22:38 < android_vm> MrElendig: I'm on a Windows host. I asked because this problem could be solved via Android VM which would be linux.
22:38 < MrElendig> specially real world performance for non-trivial pieces of code
22:38 < MrElendig> android_vm: android is not linux
22:38 < jim> one point I have, is that languages like python and perl (as well as the others) already have such a system and it works well
22:38 < sauvin> MrElendig, examples?
22:38 < MrElendig> it uses a heavily modified fork of the kernel
22:38 < azarus> probably Rust or Go or something
22:38 < android_vm> Then this isn't the right place to ask such a question?
22:38 < micros> There has been a lot of talk in embedded (can we even call it that anymore) communities about selecting a better language.  Truth is, C/C++ still dominate, but as the next generation or so of peopel come out of school, they will push / use languages they know.  C may just become tired like Fortran after a while.
22:39 < sauvin> android_vm, you may have better luck asking in #android.
22:39 < micros> LUA is finding its place lately. I've seen that in products with reasonable success, but not the whole product; BSPs, middleware are still in C/C++
22:39 < SporkWitch> LUA is a scripting language, not a programming language
22:39 < MrElendig> ada/fortran/rust/etc
22:39 < jim> I'm not saying you shouldn't code in C, but I am saying that for programs of any complexity datawise, you're gonna need such a system
22:40 < MrElendig> SporkWitch: I count "scriptiing" langauges like lua and python as programming languages
22:40 < SporkWitch> jim: and you write it, efficiently, and reuse it
22:40 < Psi-Jack> Heh, I'm reaaaaally liking being able to get averages of 100 MB/s on a single HDD of a Ceph cluster. Maaaan.. Once everything's all Bluestore, I wonder how much performance I'll actually get from the ceph cluster when pulling data from multiple disks simaltaneously.
22:40 < azarus> MrElendig: so sed is a programming language too? :)
22:40 < MrElendig> lua.org even says "the lua programming language"
22:40 < SporkWitch> and people call cheesecake cake
22:41 < SporkWitch> doesn't make them right
22:41 < sauvin> You can't use sed for calculating factorials, but you *can* use Lua for that.
22:41 < azarus> lua is cool, like a lean mean python
22:41 < jim> I'd say that if you're going to do anything major with the intent to have it in C either immediately or eventually (after prototyping), you better have a damn good plan\
22:41 < sauvin> The real difference between "programming" and "scripting", seems to me, is connotational.
22:42 < MrElendig> and how would you class haskell, there are both interpeted and compiled implementations of it
22:42 < jim> sauvin, agreed, they're both programming
22:42 < sauvin> The details of the translator aren't relevant for me.
22:42 < micros> lets be clear, when you need to hit in a nail, use a hammer.  there are many languages, each ideal for a specific type of job.  No single system should be 100% the same language.  BSP=C, Middleware=C/C++, Applications=LUA/JAVA.  One product, many languages.
22:43  * MrElendig would replace C with rust basically for all use cases (where it is supported)
22:43 < azarus> I'd love to like Rust, but I don't :<
22:44 < azarus> it feels like such a hassle to work with
22:44 < MrElendig> I don't love it, but I hate it way less than C :p
22:44 < MrElendig> C is way more of a hassle
22:44 < sauvin> Rust is a new kid on the block, and some of us older farts who started learning C when lots of people still had rotary dial phone are going to look at Rust with... um... reluctance.
22:44 < azarus> simple projects take so long to compile, doesn't run on everything... :/
22:44 < sauvin> azarus, I used to love C, too, but it's gotten to be such a hassle to work with. What's worse about rust?
22:45 < djph> sauvin: hell, some of us hip kids who have the barest grasp of a "rotary phone" look at Rust with ... reluctance.
22:45 < jim> one very serious advantage of interpreted languages over compiled languages (c, c++, ada, java) is that the programs are immediately runnable
22:45 < MrElendig> azarus: C isn't exacly portable either
22:46 < azarus> jim: tcc -run prog.c
22:46 < sauvin> The thing that bothers me about C vs Rust is that C isn't going to "evolve" much. I pity all the folks who dropped anchor on Python 2 and found that Python 3 broke their stuff.
22:46 < newpy> Rust seems to be a tempest in a teapot, no I know irl is talking about it
22:46 < newpy> *no one I know
22:46 < MrElendig> llvm mainly focusing on x86_64 is a bit of a pain though
22:46 < jim> compile time was a major factor that killed arsdigita, then a $58m company
22:46 < azarus> MrElendig: programming microcontrollers in rust seems painful
22:47 < azarus> but idk
22:47  * sauvin *begins* to grok simple Erlang loops
22:47 < MrElendig> azarus: ymmv, works pretty well on some, like most coretx m0's
22:47 < MrElendig> azarus: but again, it is mainly a issue with llvm, not rust itself
22:48 < azarus> MrElendig: cool! at least it gives you the possibility of doing 'unsafe' stuff
22:48 < azarus> unsafe {blah}
22:48 < MrElendig> can use the m0 crates whithout ever touching unsafe :p
22:48 < zapotah> no matter how kind you or your offspring will be kids in germany will be kinder
22:49 < noodlepie> Greets all round!
22:49 < zapotah> will be,
22:49 < azarus> jim: for me, tcc eliminates all the compile time problems I have with c
22:49 < newpy> MrElendig, what does Rust offer exactly?
22:50 < jim> protection from memory issues for one
22:50 < MrElendig> newpy: memory safety, imo nicer syntax, actual decent tooling
22:50 < Disconsented> tooling espically <3
22:50 < azarus> make(1)
22:50 < azarus> ;)
22:50 < pepermuntjes> jim, is there any merit in learning a BSD distro? and if so, which one?
22:51 < azarus> pepermuntjes: i know, didn't ask me, but I heartily recommend OpenBSD
22:51 < jim> pepermuntjes, don't know, not familiar with any of them
22:51 < MrElendig> azarus: people handwriting makefiles and not using pkg-config is one reason why I hate C
22:51 < MrElendig> or worse, autohell
22:51 < newpy> MrElendig, seems like people like LARPing with terms like "cargo" and "crates" :P
22:51 < azarus> MrElendig: oh yup, automake wants to make me poke my eye out
22:51 < pepermuntjes> thanks jim and azarus
22:52 < azarus> my eyes*
22:53 < jim_chat> my experience with BSDs is that by the time you get all your favorite GNU stuff installed on it... you might as well have installed any Linux distro instead
22:53 < azarus> jim: the essence of BSDs is that you don't have GNU by default
22:53 < azarus> some people work better without GNU
22:53 < jim_chat> kinda the big detractor, IMO
22:54 < MrElendig> I pretty much only use meson for C stuff now, mostly for avr's
22:54 < SporkWitch> jim_chat: you know a bouncer would let you log in from multiple clients WITHOUT multiple names, right? lol
22:54 < MrElendig> or just run the client on a vps/whatever
22:54 < SporkWitch> or that
22:55 < hassoon> what's the name of that package that helps us detect the name of a given pressed key to be used in something like i3wm's keybindings
22:55 < azarus> hassoon: xev
22:55 < hassoon> azarus: you're right, thank you.
22:55 < azarus> (might be xorg-xev or something in your distro)
22:56 < hassoon> azarus: yeah debian here
22:56 < azarus> <package manager> <search verb> xev
22:56 < azarus> ;)
22:57 < jim> as far as GNU goes, not all linux installations have gnu, and I would imagine not all bsd installations don't
22:57 < azarus> jim: true
22:58 < azarus> for example: alpine does not have the coreutils, debian/kfreebsd does have the coreutils
22:58 < azarus> the first being a linux distro, the second a bsd "distro"
22:58 < sauvin> azarus, that's the best generic instruction I've seen in quite a while.
22:58 < jim> azarus, the d in bsd stands for distribution :)
22:59 < azarus> of course ;)
23:03 < hexnewbie> So the Linux equivalent is LSD?
23:04 < Markow> Nah, even better
23:05 < Dagmar> No, Berkley makes that as well
23:05 < SporkWitch> lol
23:05 < azarus> LSD = limited slip differential for me
23:05 < Dagmar> Your life sounds a little boring.
23:06 < azarus> nah, it's used mostly in sports/racing cars ;)
23:06 < SporkWitch> lysergic acid dimethyamide
23:06 < Dagmar> I'd have thought "Limited Sight Distance" would be a bit more important, then.  ;)
23:06 < SporkWitch> *diethylamide
23:06 < azarus> I don't deal with hallucinogens ;)
23:06 < diogenese> I ignore them too
23:08 < jim_chat> I ignore them but they keep talking to me.
23:08 < newpy> azarus, how does limited slip differ from regular old differential with those angled cogs?
23:09 < azarus> newpy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited-slip_differential
23:09 < newpy> why even have a conversation anymore amirite?
23:09 < azarus> yeh
23:09 < azarus> am about to head to bed, terribly sorry
23:10 < newpy> just messing with you
23:10 < nostrora> Hello ! Do you know if Linux have a good Ryzen 7 2700U support ? thanks
23:11 < azarus> nostrora: it'll work, it's all x86. now, platform support might be spotty
23:11 < nostrora> azarus: Yes sorry, i mean graphics stack. it is amd vega
23:11 < SporkWitch> newpy: http://blog.motostew.com/differential-types-pros-and-cons/ more info than the wiki
23:16 < badboyjer> sup
23:18  * sauvin giggles at erlang, makes it dead simple to calculate hypoteneuses in N dimensions
23:18 < Dagmar> For various values of "simple"
23:19 < newpy> simple, fast, or both?
23:19 < sauvin> Does that mean to imply "sufficiently permissive interpretations of"..? :D
23:20 < sauvin> Dunno about "fast", but writing the goofy thing once you understand some of the basics is certainly easy enough.
23:20 < Dagmar> You left normal values of "simple" behind when you said "N dimensions"
23:20 < sauvin> OK, so I used to be an engineer. Everybody has skeletons in his closet.
23:21 < newpy> probably faster to just rotate the vector so it's the diagonal of some n-cube, then length = sqrt(n)*R
23:22 < sauvin> Not doing cubes, though.
23:23 < RoyalJade> Hey Dorks!
23:23 < sauvin> Hey, pinhead!
23:23 < diogenese> zippy?
23:25 < zapotah> alan!
23:25 < RoyalJade> hahahhaa what a story Mark!
23:26 < mawk> I'm coding my own vpn software
23:26 < zapotah> STEVE
23:26 < zapotah> STEVE
23:26 < eodiv> I am running nginx as reverse proxy to a uwsgi socket. nginx shows permission denied when connecting to the socket. How do I check which is running with what permissions/ownership?
23:26 < zapotah> oh thats not steve
23:27 < MrElendig> namei -o thesocket
23:28 < prussian> could just throw a acl on it for nginx's user
23:28 < MrElendig> alternative run on localhost instead of a socket
23:28 < newpy> so in Rust if you forget the semi-colon at the end of a line it assumes you want that as the return value?
23:28 < zapotah> tcp proxy that shit
23:29 < MrElendig> newpy: "maybe"
23:29 < MrElendig> return value is the result of the last expression
23:29 < MrElendig> if you forget a ; in the middle of your code the compiler will usually complain at you
23:30 < newpy> MrElendig, then why require no ; at the end?
23:30 < newpy> wouldn't it just be the expression before } regardless?
23:30 < newpy> and Rust has the "return" keyword anyway for early returns XD
23:31 < newpy> trying so hard to be part of the cool kids club haha
23:31 < RoyalJade> newpy: you are a silly goose
23:31 < tpanarch1st> hello, where do Proxmox vm errors go please, i've changed over the certificates within proxmox and since then the vm's won't start and seem to have gone down on their own
23:32 < tpanarch1st> but i could do with trying to identify where the log files are located to pinpoint the precise issues, google doesn't appear to be such a good fried here
23:32 < tpanarch1st> friend*
23:32 < MrElendig> depends on how you run it, how it is configured etc
23:32 < tpanarch1st> MrElendig: "out of the box"
23:32 < MrElendig> that still tells us nothing
23:32 < tpanarch1st> MrElendig: please could you confine your question :)
23:33 < MrElendig> journald vs syslog vs rsyslog vs graylog
23:33 < tpanarch1st> i don't know that, as much as I could think to do was to go into var/log
23:33 < MrElendig> or if you are just running by hand and dumping everything to stdout
23:33 < MrElendig> or what
23:33 < tpanarch1st> MrElendig: latest proxmox, i believe is based on debian 9
23:33 < newpy> MrElendig, is there a good use case for diverging functions, panic!(), etc?
23:34  * Metalloid grunts
23:34 < tpanarch1st> if you are asking me how proxmox does things, that's kinda my question :)
23:34 < MrElendig> I'm asking how you are using it/set it up
23:34 < tpanarch1st> sure, so i just installed it, installed my VM's and then run it
23:34 < MrElendig> I suggest reading the docs for your distro
23:34 < tpanarch1st> MrElendig: i started on google
23:34 < tpanarch1st> but I couldn't find what I needed
23:35 < tpanarch1st> you would have thought "where does proxmox store vm log errors"
23:35 < Psi-Jack> tpanarch1st: "Certificates?"
23:35 < MrElendig> depending on what you are running it on top of
23:35 < tpanarch1st> Psi-Jack: ugggh usual party trick
23:35 < tpanarch1st> oh hang on
23:35 < tpanarch1st> yeah for once I do, i tried to install a https certificate
23:36 < tpanarch1st> and that seems to tie in with the issue but I can't prove that without seeing logs
23:36 < tpanarch1st> but I can't work out where the logs go, this is not one specific vm, it's all of them
23:36 < tpanarch1st> (i always say cert for key don't I lol)
23:36 < Psi-Jack> So you changed the SSL certificates used by Proxmox VE itself?
23:36 < tpanarch1st> but it is a cert this time!
23:37 < tpanarch1st> yes Psi-Jack
23:37 < tpanarch1st> i renamed the one's there to .old
23:37 < tpanarch1st> and then scp'd mine up :)
23:37 < tpanarch1st> and gave them the same name as the originals
23:37 < Psi-Jack> That wouldn't effect its ability to start/stop/run VM instances itself, unless Proxmox's services themselves are failing.
23:37 < tpanarch1st> yeah Psi-Jack this is affecting **all** vm's so id be inclined to believe that there is a proxmox wide issue :)
23:38 < Psi-Jack> Is this a PVE cluster, or single PVE host?
23:39 < RoyalJade> hey does anyone know if the DiRT 4 game will be made available for LiNUX?
23:39 < djph> RoyalJade: no idea, read teh dev website
23:39 < Psi-Jack> RoyalJade: What's with the specific lowercasing of the i's? :p
23:40 < tpanarch1st> Psi-Jack: just one cluster installed so I presume that would be the same as saying one host :)
23:40 < Psi-Jack> cluster means 2 or more.
23:40 < tpanarch1st> the only other thing i've done is a massive update but the system seemed to be working for 24 hours after that
23:40 < newpy> Psi-Jack, maybe the lowercase i implies internet multiplayer
23:40 < tpanarch1st> ah there we go :)
23:40 < tpanarch1st> so one pve host :)
23:41 < RoyalJade> i think we can all agree that they are heroes over there at Feral interactIve
23:41 < zapotah> the dirt IP is all like that
23:41 < tpanarch1st> there's two schools of thought here, the instructions i followed to update my system were either wrong or wrongly interpreted by me OR it's certificate related
23:41 < Psi-Jack> tpanarch1st: Okay. Well, proxmox ve logs everything to /var/log/* like pretty much everything, you can also use journalctl -f to watch logs.
23:42 < tpanarch1st> yeah that was my first thought "ask an educated question here"
23:42 < TwistedFate> is ok to have /hoot on a ssd?
23:42 < TwistedFate> is it*
23:42 < Psi-Jack> https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/HTTPS_Certificate_Configuration_(Version_4.x_and_newer)
23:42 < tpanarch1st> so i went to logs, i'll be damaged if I can find what i'm looking for there though :)
23:42 < zapotah> hoot
23:42 < tpanarch1st> damned not damaged
23:42 < TwistedFate>  /boot* lol
23:43 < RoyalJade> https://linuxgameconsortium.com/linux-gaming-news/dirt-4-looks-like-next-feral-port-linux-windows-games-54350/
23:43 < RoyalJade> yay!
23:43 < tpanarch1st> Psi-Jack: https://snag.gy/Yhtfo3.jpg
23:43 < newpy> is RoyalJade the latest effort in guerilla marketing?
23:43 < newpy> RoyalJade, are you a bot?
23:43 < TwistedFate> dirt rally seems like best dirt imo
23:44 < tpanarch1st> oh syslog!!!
23:44 < tpanarch1st> lol
23:44 < tpanarch1st> i thought it would be error log or similar ha
23:44 < RoyalJade> no, im just a big fan of the linux game consortium
23:44 < newpy> RoyalJade, is there a list of games on linux ranked by popularity anywhere?
23:44 < RoyalJade> TwistedFate: you may be right
23:44 < newpy> RoyalJade, oh I probably should've just checked linuxgameconsortium.com
23:45 < RoyalJade> newpy: yes, it's like the Q consortium except for linux games
23:46 < newpy> RoyalJade, I don't see a total list anywhere
23:46 < sauvin> Interesting idea: /hoot. Top level directory for a directory tree of mountpoints for USB drives containing porn and episodes of Hee Haw?
23:46 < diogenese> that was a fun show
23:48 < tpanarch1st> Psi-Jack: https://pastebin.com/bFDsjkcc
23:48 < tpanarch1st> is this giving any clues
23:48 < tpanarch1st> Apr 22 22:24:27 corinthian systemd-udevd[1865]: Could not generate persistent MAC address for tap102i0: No such file or directory
23:49 < RoyalJade> newpy: maybe on steam then... beep boop beep
23:49 < Psi-Jack> tpanarch1st: pastebin.com == bad.
23:50 < Psi-Jack> But, that one log entry is... Interesting.
23:50 < tpanarch1st> sorry Psi-Jack :)
23:50 < Psi-Jack> tpanarch1st: Also, do you know about #proxmox?
23:50 < tpanarch1st> yep
23:50 < sauvin> tpanarch1st, yeah, use something else, please, like maybe zerobin (which I like). jim likes to push termbin.com with syntax like this: command | nc termbin.com 9999
23:51 < newpy> pastebin shows the power of branding
23:51 < tpanarch1st> ah fairs :)
23:51 < newpy> even after numerous superior competitors are created, pastebin is still linked
23:51 < sauvin> For one thing, pastebin can take ages to load because of all the damn baggage.
23:52 < newpy> what can men do against such reckless apathy?
23:52 < Psi-Jack> For me, pastebin.com burned themselves when they added adblock blocking in both normal pastes AND raw pastes.
23:54 < Pentode> Psi-Jack, indeed.
23:54 < newpy> Honestly we need a new attempt at an open ID profiles w/ secure credit card interface, pitch it to the long tail of e-commerce sites that can't get users to sign up for anything other than amazon
23:54 < sauvin> Give us this day our daily bread, forgive our trespasses as we forgive the trespasses of others, and lead us not into evil but deliver us from pastebin.com...
23:55 < newpy> then create a microtrans culture on the internet and remove ads
23:55 < cluelessperson> how do I identify the hardware path to pass to this command?
23:55 < cluelessperson> udevadm test-builtin net_setup_link /sys/path/to/network/device
23:56 < cluelessperson> for certain ethernet adapters?
23:56 < tpanarch1st> Psi-Jack: a friend of mine wants to remote desktop me to have a look at this so i'm going to let him because it might save everybody a bit of time
23:56 < tpanarch1st> but please may I come back to you when, at least, we have got a bit more meaningful information for you :)
23:56 < cluelessperson> I was thinking looking at lspci | grep Ethernet   and trying to manually search through /sys/devices/
23:56 < cluelessperson> tpanarch1st: what are you trying to do?
23:57 < cluelessperson> just joined
23:57 < Psi-Jack> cluelessperson: He's having some issues with Proxmox VE not starting VMs anymore.
23:59 < Celmor> question about linux filesystem caching, if I recursively dig through the filesystem, e.g. `du -s` and repeat the operation the metadata should be cached and result be presented when I repeat `du -s` exponentially faster, right?
--- Log closed Mon Apr 23 00:00:16 2018