--- Log opened Mon Apr 23 00:00:16 2018
--- Day changed Mon Apr 23 2018
00:00 < Psi-Jack> If there's memory available for caching, yes.
00:01 < Celmor> so if I use find to iterate over all folders on / and execute `du -s` since it has to iterate over sub folders multiple times that shouldn't be too much of a waste?
00:02 < Celmor> e.g. https://ptpb.pw/aLeg
00:03 < kope> im trying to run bless and i got this https://pastebin.com/yuV3LS1P
00:03 < Psi-Jack> kope: pastebin.com is bad. /topic has a better pastebin.
00:04 < TwistedFate> huh, i made 4 partitions on /dev/sda and the 4th one is extended for some reason.. lsblk shows only 1K size for that one.. is that normal? it's supposed to be ~150G
00:05 < kope> Psi-Jack, https://paste.linux.community/view/bc72717a
00:05 < suttin> buffer 14
00:05 < suttin> derp
00:06 < Psi-Jack> System.TypeInitializationException: The type initializer for 'GLib.Marshaller' threw an exception. ---> System.IO.FileNotFoundException: Could not find file "/usr/share/zoneinfo/localtime"
00:06 < Psi-Jack> That shows something.
00:09 < dogbert2> w00t: Bus 001 Device 003: ID 148f:5370 Ralink Technology, Corp. RT5370 Wireless Adapter (wireless adapter seen in Armbian for the Libre Computer)
00:09 < kope> no one help?
00:10 < Psi-Jack> kope: Fix the problem that has been mentioned.
00:10 < Celmor> looks like a dotnet problem
00:10 < kope> Psi-Jack, didnt understand
00:12 < Psi-Jack> kope: Your zoneinfo setup is incorrect?
00:13 < tupan> anyone here can provide a good guide to install linux on an old android phone? I know I can install a container within my android phone but I'd like to remove the android system
00:13 < kope> Psi-Jack, no
00:14 < Psi-Jack> Okay, seems I cannot help, because, what that one log entry shows, is exactly what I said.
00:23 < dysfigured> when i ssh into my server, i basically see  uname -a  before it prints the motd, how can i change what that command is
00:24 < dysfigured> i'm not sure if that's part of sshd or pam or bash or what
00:24 < Sitri> Did you check /etc/issue?
00:24 < TwistedFate> should my /boot be xfs or ext2?
00:24 < dysfigured> hm i don't think that's the output
00:25 < Celmor> TwistedFate, your ESP should be fat(32)
00:25 < dysfigured> that just seems to have   Debian GNU/Linux 9 \n \l    which doesn't look like the same output as  uname -a
00:25 < MrElendig> dysfigured: it is not uname at all
00:25 < Celmor> check /etc/update-motd.d
00:26 < Psi-Jack> TwistedFate: /boot itself can be any filesystem. xfs, ext4, ext3. ext2 doesn't have journalling so not quite as recommended.
00:26 < dysfigured> ahaa! so all the scripts in this dir are run
00:26 < Psi-Jack> TwistedFate: Heck, /boot can be FAT even. And if you used systemd-boot, it would be. :)
00:26 < TwistedFate> Psi-Jack, which is better for /boot? i was thinking to maybe use xfs..
00:27 < Celmor> what are you mounting on
00:27 < Celmor>  /boot
00:27 < Celmor> are you booting in UEFO or bios mode
00:27 < Psi-Jack> UEFI you mean? heh
00:28 < Psi-Jack> For /boot, alone, that wouldn't matter.
00:28 < TwistedFate> legacy bios
00:28 < Psi-Jack> More would be specific to whether he's using grub, or another boot loader specifically.
00:28 < TwistedFate> grub
00:29 < kazdax> i do have PXE i would like to learn how to install vai that
00:30 < Psi-Jack> Curious, what distro, and what's your other filesystems in use?
00:30 < kazdax> i dont know if this is a question to be asked here
00:30 < Psi-Jack> And, why a separate /boot? ;)
00:30 < kazdax> here ti goes..if my bios dosbnt have a virtualize option
00:30 < kazdax> does that mean on my linux i cant run VM on kvm ?
00:30 < Psi-Jack> kazdax: Not exactly.
00:31 < RoyalJade> what are everyone's feeling about this new upcoming Microsoft Linux?
00:31 < kazdax> the ones that are new CPUs just have better support for VMs then ?
00:31 < kazdax> maybe they run alittle faster
00:31 < Psi-Jack> kazdax: grep -E --color=auto 'vmx|svm|0xc0f' /proc/cpuinfo
00:31 < Celmor> kazdax, you can still qemulate, using e.g. qemu
00:32 < Psi-Jack> RoyalJade: Who's Microsoft?
00:32 < Celmor> emulate*
00:32 < kazdax> i see
00:32 < kazdax> but then whats the difference ..speed "
00:32 < kazdax> ?
00:32 < Psi-Jack> RoyalJade: Who's Microsoft?
00:32 < Psi-Jack> Err
00:32 < Psi-Jack> kazdax: grep -E --color=auto 'vmx|svm|0xc0f' /proc/cpuinfo
00:32 < S55S5SS5SS> Psi-Jack: they used to make an operating system
00:33 < RoyalJade> Psi-Jack: Hmmm
00:33 < triceratux> RoyalJade: is there still a transnational tech monopoly that doesnt have a linux offering ?
00:33 < kazdax> what should i be looked for svm field ?
00:33 < kazdax> there is no vmx in it
00:33 < Psi-Jack> kazdax: Does that result in anything?
00:33 < Psi-Jack> Or no output?
00:33 < kazdax> yes it results in alot of stuff
00:34 < Psi-Jack> Good
00:34 < Psi-Jack> Then you have hardware virtualization support.
00:34 < Psi-Jack> AMD or Intel?
00:34 < kazdax> AMD
00:34 < Psi-Jack> Pretty much ALL AMD CPUs have svm support.
00:34 < Psi-Jack> Unlike Intel which doesn't always include vmx support.
00:35 < kazdax> ahh i see
00:35 < kazdax> its an AMD FX 4100 :(
00:35 < Psi-Jack> So you have it, it's enabled and exposed. :)
00:35 < kazdax> i know not a very cool Chip
00:35 < kazdax> i want to personally get an i7 7th generation
00:35 < Psi-Jack> I have a Proxmox VE server running with a AMD FX 8120
00:36 < kazdax> that sounds better than mine..since the number is higher
00:36 < Psi-Jack> The other two are AMD Athlon II X4 620;s
00:36 < RoyalJade> triceratux: i see you have used Oracle Linux before
00:36 < kazdax> well i guess on a linux ..if its running on metal it dosnt really matter much if its minute tasks you need to complete on it
00:36 < mib_mib> hi all - if i release desktop software, what do I need to do for all the 'licenses' and stuff for the packages/libraries i'm using - do they need to go inside of the JAR file, or somehow be accessible outside of it or something? Any quick tips are helpful
00:37 < mib_mib> any help one this is appreciated
00:37 < djph> mib_mib: read the licensing of everything you've included.
00:37 < mawk> to create a vpn software using a tun device, I need to do a bit of userspace IPv4 to decode destination address in each frame right ?
00:37 < mawk> to send it over the wire to the right client
00:39 < mawk> or to make a vpn device with very few clients and probably higher speed, use multi-queue tun devices and don't care about destination address, just do back and forth from the wire and the device
00:39 < Drakonan> Anyone know if there is a free web filtering solution for kids?
00:40 < mawk> you could maybe download a list of forbidden websites somewhere
00:40 < Psi-Jack> Drakonan: Proper parenting. :)
00:40 < mawk> then stuff that into your dns resolver
00:40 < kazdax> dont most sites follow the rules to have a tag on it
00:40 < RoyalJade> watch out for that ocksucker Norton
00:41 < RoyalJade> he will fleece you
00:41 < kazdax> that says its an adult site ?
00:41 < kazdax> and then you have software that are like PG that stop kids from visiting those sites ?
00:41 < Drakonan> Psi-Jack, its my daughter she was looking for squishy mushies the other day and one of them was in the shape of a penis
00:41 < qman> There are lots of free web filtering tools, the problem is the site lists
00:41 < Drakonan> and of course it said the word... and of course she can read
00:41 < mawk> lol Drakonan
00:41 < mawk> then I refer you to what Psi-Jack said
00:41 < Drakonan> those kind of pages i wouldn't like to be available for her
00:41 < mawk> explain what it is before she looks it up herself
00:42 < kazdax> whats that anti virus tools that are parental locks
00:42 < kazdax> dont they work ?
00:42 < mawk> but in the meantime you have many solutions, some are less out-of-the-box than the others
00:42 < Drakonan> oh she knows but wouldnt it be better if that crap was filtered
00:42 < Psi-Jack> Not necessarily.
00:42 < kazdax> i think they need to make an internet policiy
00:42 < mawk> you could setup a transparent proxy using Squid then use keywords (it's the most complicated setup imo), or filter using DNS
00:42 < kazdax> where every site that has adult content
00:43 < kazdax> should have a tag or some value associated wigth it
00:43 < Drakonan> but it had the word so that would should be an easy thing to block... any page with that word on it um... no...
00:43 < Psi-Jack> Drakonan: Was she using google?
00:43 < qman> The problem with dilters is that they are always wrong
00:43 < kazdax> telling the brower that its a website that is above PG or something
00:43 < Drakonan> Psi-Jack, youtube
00:43 < qman> They will alway miss stuff they shouldn't and block stuff they shouldn't
00:43 < Drakonan> gman yeah but im thinking if there is the word penis on the page it shouldn't be available
00:43 < kazdax> just block all sites..and allow only those sites that she visits
00:43 < Psi-Jack> https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/174084?co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop&hl=en
00:43 < Drakonan> until she gets to sex ed
00:43 < NullTheSecond> https://www.if-not-true-then-false.com/2015/fedora-nvidia-guide/3/ I followed this, but now my screen resolution isn't correct and I can't change it. Any ideas?
00:43 < NullTheSecond> ``grep -rl "nouveau" /etc/modprobe.d`` shows nothing, so nouveau isn't blacklisted (Fedora 27)
00:44 < Psi-Jack> Drakonan: Perhaps just enabling browser built-in features should suffice.
00:44 < Drakonan> not looking for anythign super advanced
00:44 < Drakonan> its an iphone
00:44 < kazdax> i think just block all sites and allow only those that she is allowe to visit
00:45 < Drakonan> wouldnt work for this its youtube
00:45 < kazdax> youtube in a sense does ..dosnt allow content thats adult
00:45 < Psi-Jack> Well, get your child their own iPad or something?
00:45 < RoyalJade> triceratux: now back to the Microsoft Linux, it's different this time Microsoft is a bad actor
00:45 < armin> NullTheSecond: wow, i always misinterpreted the "the scanning will stop on the first match" sentence from the grep man-page for the -l switch until i read your message and just thought "why does he use it that way if it stops after displaying the first matching file!? *opens manpage*"
00:45 < kazdax> without you being logged into it
00:45 < Drakonan> yep...
00:46 < kazdax> ie you have to prove you are above 18
00:46 < armin> NullTheSecond: thanks for pointing me to this after decades...
00:46 < qman> Youtube is youtube, you have to rely on their platform tools, no web filter will filter video content
00:46 < Drakonan> i mean it wasn't terrible bad but she got this: https://www.amazon.com/Zeroyoyo-Adorable-Penis-Reduce-Pressure/dp/B06WP9JWRQ
00:47 < NullTheSecond> Haha armin . Do you know how I can get back my screen resolution? (1020x1080)?
00:47 < triceratux> RoyalJade: theyre being forced into this. they have no choice. linux is more powerful than they are http://linuxgizmos.com/why-microsoft-chose-linux-for-azure-sphere/
00:47 < NullTheSecond> I've spent hours looking, but it's all for Nvidia
00:47 < dysfigured> is there a program that monitors commands used by users?
00:47 < Drakonan> but there are like 50 million of them and THATS the one that pops up
00:47 < armin> NullTheSecond: did you try xrandr/arandr?
00:47 < dysfigured> like htop, but a logger
00:48 < armin> NullTheSecond: especially if you don't mind clicking around to do it, use arandr.
00:48 < NullTheSecond> `xrandr: Failed to get size of gamma for output default Screen 0`
00:48 < Psi-Jack> Drakonan: You wouldn';t get amazon.com results from youtube...
00:48 < armin> NullTheSecond: no really, i always thought this would stop after displaying the first matching file and did not use this switch for literally decades up to now. i'm a bit shocked here in front of my keyboard right now...
00:49 < Drakonan> not an amazon link im sayign that picture is what it was
00:49 < Psi-Jack> Ahh
00:49 < armin> NullTheSecond: strange, really. :)
00:49 < NullTheSecond> :P
00:49 < Drakonan> but something like this would have been slightly better https://www.amazon.com/Zeroyoyo-Adorable-Risng-Reduce-Pressure/dp/B01NAS4FBY/ref=pd_bxgy_21_img_2/146-4847777-8646255?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01NAS4FBY&pd_rd_r=QX9TH3C0Y7Z0YYC38D56&pd_rd_w=h3jWR&pd_rd_wg=W3JbX&psc=1&refRID=QX9TH3C0Y7Z0YYC38D56
00:50 < Drakonan> its like the latest fad at her school i guess
00:50 < NullTheSecond> I removed Nvidia's proprietary drivers, now I want to go back to the open-source drivers. Before I installed Nvidia's proprietary drivers, the screen resolution automatically adjusted
00:50 < Drakonan> but that's just an example... i should be able to filter that stuff before she ever sees it
00:52 < Drakonan> hoping itd be something that could fit on my raspbian set up
00:53 < kazdax> probably because it installed the open source drivers on its own ?
00:54 < kazdax> perhaps thats something windows does ..i dont know
00:57 < xebra> hi, when using netstat with the -e option, I can see two additional fields, user and inode. But I'm not sure I understand. I know the concept of inodes for files. What's that inode?
00:58 < RoyalJade> triceratux: hmm thanks for posting the link, you have given me much to ponder...
00:59 < Drakonan> can squid block websites based off the content of the website?
00:59 < gurki> Drakonan: given that most connections will use ssl thats gonna be hard
00:59 < gurki> tls*
00:59 < moog> xebra: It's the socket's inode number in VFS
00:59 < Peetz0r> there is no functional way to filter things on the web for kids, period.
01:00 < Peetz0r> besides, it's censorship anyway
01:00 < tpanarch1st> cluelessperson: Psi-Jack we managed to fix it
01:00 < tds> you can MITM SSL if you really want to, but that's nasty
01:00 < tpanarch1st> proxmox got annoyed about using the ssl keys i'd imported
01:00 < Drakonan> Peetz0r, not all things but some things
01:00 < Drakonan> tds was thinking that
01:00 < gurki> but why?
01:00 < Peetz0r> if they want to look at porn, then they'll find it. if not at home, then at school or at friends or maybe even on paper in stores. nd if they don't then they won't
01:01 < Drakonan> why not if you can
01:01 < Drakonan> isnt it saving time
01:01 < gurki> how so?
01:01 < Peetz0r> maybe once in a while they'l accidentally find something, but that has never hurt anyone
01:01 < gurki> if you want to prevent crap to load, have ppl learn how to use umatrix.
01:01 < NullTheSecond> How do I remove `rd.driver.blacklist=nouveau modprobe.blacklist=nouveau` from my grub file?
01:01 < Drakonan> the more bs you dont want to see eliminated
01:01 < gurki> what is bs to you might be important to another one
01:01 < gurki> who gets to call the bs?
01:02 < cluelessperson> xebra: take it with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that linux represents literally everythign as files.  You have a device tree represented as files, network connections listed as files.  Maybe it's the inode to their file?
01:02 < Peetz0r> if you wnat to save time/bandwidth or inprove security, then start by installing an adblocker and disabling plugins
01:02 < cluelessperson> uncertain
01:03 < Peetz0r> Drakonan: anothet question, would you want to filter any picture of genitals? if so, are you willing to block all of wikipedia in the process?
01:03 < Drakonan> gurki, do you really suggest there are no parts of the internet that are just worthless for anyone else but the one that created them
01:03 < Peetz0r> because that is basically what it takes
01:03 < xebra> cluelessperson, yes, probably
01:04 < gurki> Drakonan: getting philosophical wont change anything. but i have a feeling were sliding towards offtopic
01:04 < Drakonan> Peetz0r, why would i block all of wikipedia because one page shows genitals
01:05 < revel> Drakonan: That's sort of what Roskomnadzor did once :D
01:05 < revel> Except it was weed instead of genitals.
01:05 < Peetz0r> Drakonan: because you can't just block one page. also, there are *many* pages on wikipedia about gentitals, sex, STD's, etc
01:05 < revel> And yes, nudity isn't a rare sight on Wikipedia.
01:05 < Drakonan> gurki, im not getting philisophical im being very practical you are the one suggesting that its all an art and nothing is good and bad its all just labels puff puff pass
01:05 < xebra> if you want to protect kids, filter stuff, etc. you'd need a whitelist (only some sites allowed). Otherwise it's useless
01:05 < Peetz0r> and then all the language variants of wikipedia, which are hard to figure out because we can't read them
01:05 < Peetz0r> etc ad nauseum
01:06 < armin> that's almost as stupid as filtering out "fuck" words in music.
01:06 < Peetz0r> the only way to "protect" your kids is by giving them proper sex ed when the time comes
01:06  * iflema block the gay ones
01:06 < Drakonan> armin, you realize radio and tv does that right?
01:06  * iflema gay overload
01:06 < armin> Drakonan: i don't have either of those, but i noticed there are youtube videos that have those filtered, especially with rap music.
01:06 < Peetz0r> Drakonan: only in some places. not where I live. and I am pretty sure that you can find research that shows tat is ineffective in the first place
01:06  * dell00 thinks iflema is weird.
01:07 < armin> Drakonan: well i actually own a tv but i only use it as an external screen for one of my notebooks.
01:07 < Peetz0r> armin: yep, some music video's are age restricted because of that, and imho that is silly. for all of those you can find unofficial uncencored unrestricted uploads anyway
01:07 < iflema> dell00: try watching or listerning to anything in this country currently
01:07 < Peetz0r> so yet another age filter that does simply not work, yet is annoying for adults
01:08 < Drakonan> depends on the goal... if the goal is to isolate your children and keep them "from all the bad" thats impossible but to keep the internet more effective and relevant maybe
01:08 < Peetz0r> iflema: which country would that be?
01:08 < iflema> land of oz
01:08 < armin> Peetz0r: i totally disagree with these things, too. if i want to listen to harsh music, i'll find a way, no matter what censorship they put on top.
01:09 < Peetz0r> Drakonan: there is no way to keep the internet functional and effective, yet isolate your children from all that is bad. there are bad things anywhere in the world, including the internet. such is life, and we cannot change that
01:09 < Drakonan> thats exactly what i just said with less words
01:10 < Peetz0r> pretending that we can will only fool us, and not protect anyone
01:10 < Drakonan> its like spam
01:10 < xebra> restricting navigation to only some sites might be enough
01:10 < Drakonan> because you can't eliminate all of it should you not eliminate any?
01:10 < Drakonan> do you not believ ein spam filters either is that against your religion too?
01:10 < armin> 01:09 < Drakonan> thats exactly what i just said with less words
01:10 < Peetz0r> Drakonan: I will never force any spam filtering on anyone including my kids
01:10 < armin> are you good with building compression algorithms?
01:10 < Drakonan> Peetz0r, i suspect its already being done for you
01:11 < Peetz0r> they would have a spam filter, but the option to turn it off
01:11 < Peetz0r> also, it's no really the same thing in the first place
01:11 < Drakonan> thats exactly what i want
01:11 < Peetz0r> I am not getting trough I think
01:12 < xebra> another option is to leave them free to browse the whole net, but install spyware on their pc's so you can check what they do at least, lol
01:12 < Drakonan> this isn't about what they are doing intentionally
01:12 < Drakonan> its when you are rick rolled a giant cock across your screen just because deez nuts
01:13 < stevendale> Drakonan: Just make sure they don't start watching furry stuff :P
01:13 < xebra> you can't protect against those things in general. Either you restrict them to a whitelist, or nothing
01:14 < Drakonan> if you stop a large chunk
01:14 < xebra> otherwise you'd need some finely tuned AI algo for that
01:14 < Drakonan> companies do it
01:14 < pnbeast> Drakonan, tell the truth, did you suffer a traumatic event onscreen?  And whatever happened to goatse.cx, anyway?
01:14 < Drakonan> schools do it
01:14 < Drakonan> pnbeast i have actually, have anyone else seen tub girl :'(
01:15 < Drakonan> it has been an effective measure that i can focus on case i would ever need to vomit
01:15 < triceratux> "The systemd developers are not qualified to write either DNS software[2] or C code that talks to the network." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14652787
01:15 < triceratux> oh whatever
01:16 < jim_chat> apparently webdav and webdab are two different things and my client can't put its head into its elbow.
01:16 < Peetz0r> "schools do it", yeah, I remember. on my school at least, it did not work. but it *did* interfere with actual schoolwork
01:17 < Peetz0r> but I had classmated trolling other classmates with porn, because they found a cleverly named porn site that (a) was not blocked and (b) did not sound like a porn site
01:17 < pnbeast> jim_chat, can you touch your nose with your elbow?  I could after my motorcycle accident but the doctor kept shrieking so I didn't get any pics.
01:17 < ayecee> shock is a powerful painkiller
01:18 < sauvin> Touching your nose with your elbow won't get you the hot babes. For that, you need to just sit quietly in a bar and lick your eyebrows.
01:18 < stevendale> I used to play RuneScape 2 in primary school :P
01:18 < pnbeast> Peetz0r, we had a phaser (sp?) printer around 2000.  I tried to go to www.phaser.com for drivers or docs or something.  Whoops!  Shoulda gone to the techtronix website, instead.
01:18 < Peetz0r> I used to create my own proxy to acces a certail browser game back in 2006 or so
01:19 < Peetz0r> pnbeast: that site looks very much SFW. I guess it was something else back then?
01:20 < Peetz0r> but honestly, it looks like it was exactly as it is now 18 years ago :p
01:20 < pnbeast> I have no idea what's there, now.  I can tell you very roughly what was there around 16 to 20 years ago, though, and it wasn't safe for work.
01:21 < Peetz0r> well, in my case it was the literal translation of "entrance" followed by my country's TLD
01:22 < triceratux> Drakonan: im not following real closely so forgive me if someones already pointed you at this https://cleanbrowsing.org/ i have no experience with it tho
01:22 < Peetz0r> so yeah, "if you now what I mean" it's a porn website, but who would know when you are 11 :p
01:22 < RoyalJade> quick question: Linux: Great OS, or, the Greatest OS?
01:23 < Sveta2> great
01:23 < Peetz0r> RoyalJade: neither
01:23 < Peetz0r> it's just a kernel
01:23 < Sveta2> it's foss so it's great
01:23 < S55S5SS5SS> triceratux: lol @ that guy that's trying to argue that dbus is a filesystem  ""DBus is a much superior "everything is a file" abstraction, except DBus calls files objects and doesn't special-case directories.""
01:26 < triceratux> S55S5SS5SS: yep its getting brutal out there. im just glad the vast majority of distros arent messing with systemd-resolved even if they are depending on systemd for services management
01:29 < jim_chat> I don't understand why they didn't roll the LLMNR functionality of resolved into avahi
01:32 < sauvin> Peetz0r, "Linux" in this channel is generally taken to mean "GNU/Linux". Insisting that "Linux" is just a kernel is technically correct but colloquially wrong.
01:33 < k2gremlin> Hello all. Trying to expand the disk of a headless ubuntu running on ESX. Expanded the drive on ESX and now trying to use gparted to expand. The only option I get on sda5 is to deactivate. http://prntscr.com/j8rg90
01:33 < RoyalJade> Peetz0r: yea buddy stop being a silly goose
01:33 < k2gremlin> If I try to resize, it wont let me make it any bigger
01:33 < Peetz0r> sauvin: then still, it's only a tiny bit of the userland and a kernel
01:33 < Peetz0r> Ubuntu and Fedora and the likes are OS'es
01:33 < sauvin> Huh?
01:34 < Peetz0r> those are actual things that a user can install like Windows
01:34 < sauvin> They are distros, subsets or instances of the general class of OS we call "Linux".
01:34 < Peetz0r> well, I disagree. but that's okey, right?
01:34 < Peetz0r> okay*
01:34 < jim_chat> words mean what they're used to mean.  We have a contextual language.
01:34 < sauvin> So long as you don't insist on confusing people with this pedantry, yes, you can believe whatever you like.
01:35 < jim_chat> It's like arguing that hacker only has one meaning.
01:35 < djph> jim_chat: it does - it means you're a bad person :P
01:35 < RoyalJade> jim_chat: right, and that one meaning is playful cleverness
01:35 < Peetz0r> sorry, but to me it's confusing to call just a few parts of an OS "the OS" while that doesn't even include the bootloader
01:36 < sauvin> Does the term "OS" have a hard definition?
01:36 < djph> Peetz0r: well, go stand over in the corner with RMS, and bleat about how it should be "GNU/Linux"
01:36 < Peetz0r> djph: no, that's a different discussion
01:37 < djph> sauvin: I would assume "Operating System" ... and whatever definition that carries with it.
01:37 < Peetz0r> because calling it "GNU/Linux" doesn't change a thing about what I'm saying
01:37 < Peetz0r> I uderstand that "Linux" as an OS in practice means "any OS that uses Linux as the kernel" (and by extension "GNU/Linux anything that ships with some gnu tools as well as the Linux kernel)
01:38 < Peetz0r> (which BTw rules out any distro that for example uses busybox to replace those, but let's put that aside for now)
01:38 < iflema> lol
01:38 < S55S5SS5SS> busybox contains a lot of core utils code
01:38 < jim_chat> I don't have Firefox I have Firefox/kde/gnu/linux/bios/intel...
01:39 < Peetz0r> jim_chat: yeah, or for short $distro (whichever it is)
01:39 < triceratux>  more specifically "any os that uses linux as a kernel which isnt android"
01:39 < djph> Peetz0r: GNU Coreutils + Linux Kernel pretty much meets the bare requirements for an Operating System.  Everything else on top of that is ... everything else on top of that.
01:39 < sauvin> Your understanding doesn't agree with how folks in this channel generall see as "Linux": a Linux kernel with a GNU userland.
01:40 < Loshki> kernel + userland + outer space == Linux
01:40 < VirusInsane> Yay. That old argument again!
01:40 < jim_chat> I say Linux and people know what I mean.  Only some insist that they don't.  But they clearly do or they wouldn't be trying to "correct" me.
01:40 < VirusInsane> Who wants popcorn, I'm making some
01:40 < dell00> iflema: U.S. is *very* weird.
01:40 < konimex> so a non-GNU userland (e.g. musl-libc) is out of this channel, then?
01:40 < sauvin> As an example, we don't consider Android as being "Linux" because it might have a (modified) Linux kernel, but it has a non-GNU userland.
01:41 < VirusInsane> What other userland can you use with linux kernel?
01:41 < VirusInsane> Got one in mind?
01:41 < Peetz0r> an OS includes a bootloader, right? so, does "Linux" imply grub? what if someone is using uboot? do we still call that "Linux"?
01:41 < jim_chat> extra salt on my popcorn plz
01:41 < TwistedFate> I need a sanity check for my fstab please :') is this good? https://paste.debian.net/hidden/6410e7c1/
01:41 < konimex> sauvin: what about alpine?
01:41 < sauvin> VirusInsane, I've seen references to "distros" that have a Linux kernel but a BSD userland, and others having Linux kernels but Solaris userlands (iirc).
01:41 < djph> Peetz0r: no. The bootloader is what acts as an intermediary between BIOS and the OS
01:41 < Loshki> er, Emacs
01:42 < VirusInsane> Or solaris with gnu userland. Nexenta.
01:42 < VirusInsane> Etc.
01:42 < VirusInsane> Why? I don't know.
01:42 < Peetz0r> djph: so the OS "Linux" does not have a bootloader, right?
01:42 < VirusInsane> How much hardware is compatible with solaris? indiana? bsd?
01:42 < sauvin> "Linux" does not necessarily imply "grub" because the bootloader isn't actually relevant to the OS itself. You can launch "Linux" from a variety of bootloaders.
01:42 < triceratux> once the kernel has a bootloader it can be considered an os, yes
01:42 < VirusInsane> Using non linux kernels doesn't seem to make sense for other than specific use cases.
01:42 < revel> UEFI stub.
01:42 < djph> Peetz0r: the OS would require a bootloader to get running, correct.
01:43 < djph> Peetz0r: but the bootloader is not part of the OS itself
01:43 < Peetz0r> yeah, and you can use any number of shells with linux. ypou can use any number of desktops with linux. you can use any number of init systems with linux. etc
01:43 < iflema> it can boot itself
01:43 < pnbeast> RMS clearly said that's it's only Linux if it's using Hurd.  Something like that.
01:43 < Peetz0r> all those things together make an OS. Just the Kernel and GNU userland does not make an OS
01:43 < sauvin> VirusInsane, I've also seen references to "distros" having BSD kernels and GNU userlands, specifically some screwball version of Debian.
01:43 < VirusInsane> Only GNU if it's using HURD
01:43 < konimex> iirc systemd has a bootloader so it kinda counts too
01:43 < sauvin> RMS can just bite me.
01:44 < sauvin> I'll bite back.
01:44 < VirusInsane> systemd is just a ... people are stupid and that's just the fact of it.
01:44 < pnbeast> If you're willing to bite Stallman, watch around his feet, as he may have transferred saliva to them.
01:44 < sauvin> The kernel and the basic userland is a basic OS.
01:44 < Peetz0r> Ubuntu is an OS. Fedora is an OS. Suse is an OS. Linux is just a component of an OS. GNU/Linux is 2 components of an OS.
01:44 < konimex> define userland
01:44 < VirusInsane> Kernel + userland + boot
01:44 < revel> Peetz0r: Why is Linux supposed to have a bootloader specific to it? Is it supposed to have specialized hardware as well, if we're going outside the realm of the actual OS itself.
01:45 < djph> Peetz0r: no, the Operating System merely operates the machine once it's in a sufficient state to be operated by said Operating System.   The BIOS, bootloader, etc., while required to get the machine in a state to run the Operating System, are not themselves part of the Operating System.
01:45 < pnbeast> Peetz0r, no CS training for you, then?  An OS is basically *just* a kernel.
01:45 < VirusInsane> So, Kernel + large chunk of userland == System Software
01:45 < VirusInsane> Rest of Userland = Application Software
01:45 < konimex> pnbeast: true
01:45 < VirusInsane> comp sci. 101
01:45 < sauvin> VirusInsane, we're going to have very limited patience with this kind of pedantry.
01:45 < Peetz0r> phogg: technically or academically true, in the real world not so much
01:46 < konimex> iirc dennis ritchie said that the kernel is the OS proper or something like that
01:46 < Peetz0r> pnbeast*
01:46 < Peetz0r> phogg: sorry for the tabfail
01:46 < VirusInsane> Oh, and having the same silly 10 year old debate isn't pedantic?
01:46 < VirusInsane> Right.
01:46 < pnbeast> Users, OTOH, believe the OS is everything that "ships" with the kernel in any popular "OS", including even the commercially available toys.
01:46 < VirusInsane> Carry on!
01:46 < gurki> whoever brought up musllibc, you made my day. their "comparison" page is made from pure gold.
01:47 < pnbeast> gurki, lnk me plz!!!
01:47 < Loshki> it's an obvious case is Islabophobia
01:47 < dogbert2> hey djph...got da wireless adapter for my RPi clone :)
01:47 < gurki> pnbeast: http://www.etalabs.net/compare_libcs.html
01:47 < sauvin> VirusInsane, the specific epithet is against confusing the n00bs unnecessarily. Nobody cares how you personally define an "OS".
01:47 < pnbeast> gurki, thanks!
01:47 < gurki> ure welcome
01:47 < VirusInsane> Generally speaking, a lack of patience usually denotes immaturity and being juvenile in how one approaches statements which one finds 'pedantic'.
01:48 < VirusInsane> So the definition isn't mine.
01:48 < VirusInsane> It's from a common Comp. Sci edutation.
01:48 < sauvin> Did you not see what I said?
01:48 < VirusInsane> you want to understand various application levels or just want people to embrace your point of view
01:48 < pnbeast> gurki, you have to spell it without the e or Psi-Jack doesn't get the automated warning.
01:48 < triceratux> many distros have gotten into the habit of branding themselves independently of the linux moniker. ubuntu would rather be referred to as ubuntu rather than a species of "gnu/linux/x11" preciesly to do away with this discussion
01:48 < VirusInsane> If that' makes you happy, I gladly embrace your point of view and will shut up.
01:48 < gurki> pnbeast: huh?
01:48 < VirusInsane> Anytihng for you, babe.
01:48 < Loshki> sauvin: not epithet. prohibition? principle?
01:48 < pnbeast> gurki, it was a joke, never mind.
01:49 < Sveta2> gurki, "you're" not "ure"
01:49 < gurki> ah. i remember having some conversations about this stuff
01:49 < Sveta2> dogbert2, how's your clone different from the rpi itself?
01:49 < sauvin> Oh, hi, Ioriyagami.
01:49 < VirusInsane> In ordre to diffuse the confusion, you go back to what you learned in your education, and go over that.
01:49 < VirusInsane> No
01:49 < pnbeast> gurki, yes, the channel is rife with defenders of "standard English", most frequently by those who are weakest in it.
01:49 < VirusInsane> It's toned.
01:49 < NullTheSecond> I need help. I CANNOT get my monitor resolution to 1920x1080 AT ALL
01:49 < VirusInsane> stoned.
01:49 < VirusInsane> recognize.
01:49 < VirusInsane> Can you have a discussion or the same old knee jerk reaction?
01:50 < NullTheSecond> I remove the crappy Nvidia drivers
01:50 < kutenai> If I have a jump host  setup in .ssh/config, what is the key chain In need to configure. Does the jump host have to be setup on the target with authorized_keys?
01:50 < djph> kutenai: most likely
01:50 < NullTheSecond> I don't have /etc/x11/xorg.conf either
01:50 < djph> sauvin: O_O you can do that!?
01:51 < NullTheSecond> When I went to uninstall the Nvidia drivers, it said that the backup xorg.conf doesn't exist
01:51 < dogbert2> https://libre.computer/products/boards/aml-s905x-cc/
01:51 < NullTheSecond> How can I get back to my old state before Nvidia ruined everything?
01:51 < dogbert2> no wireless, 10/100 ethernet, but not too shabby for $35
01:51 < djph> NullTheSecond: you can't give it a "shutup, just delete the packages already" command?
01:52 < lupine> dpkg --force-remove libcomerr2 or something, right?
01:52 < NullTheSecond> I've removed all things Nvidia, but now my monitor's resolution is stuck at a tiny resolution
01:52 < NullTheSecond> I cannot change the resolution
01:52 < NullTheSecond> I've spent hours trying to figure it out
01:52 < NullTheSecond> Getting triggered
01:53 < pnbeast> glibc uses "introsort"?  I thought it was something else.  I guess it changed, again, or maybe my memory is worse than I think, which may be most likely.
01:53 < ||JD||>  NullTheSecond | I don't have /etc/x11/xorg.conf either  <<< then create it
01:53 < Peetz0r> the original question was something like "is Linux a great OS?" but how can I answer that? Some distro's are great, others suck. The kernel itsels is okay, but that's just the kernel.
01:54 < Peetz0r> itself*
01:54 < pnbeast> Peetz0r, that wasn't a question, that was a troll.  You missed that?
01:54 < ayecee> that wasn't even a troll
01:54 < pnbeast> Well, it was a transparent troll.
01:54 < ayecee> it wasn't a serious question though.
01:54 < konimex> a low-effort troll
01:54 < sauvin> When I still ran FreeBSD, I liked its kernel better, but liked Linux' userland. Only real reason I'm running Linux instead of FreeBSD is that it can be so damned hard to find machines it'll run on.
01:54 < NullTheSecond> https://lkubuntu.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/quick-and-easy-way-to-fix-x11-issues/ I'll give this a go
01:55 < Loshki> NullTheSecond: weird that it's complaining the *backup* xorg.conf doesn't exist. You may have to try and strace it.
01:55 < Peetz0r> even (especially?) if it was a troll, my answer "neither, it's just a kernel" shouldn't have sparked so many reactions, right?
01:55 < Peetz0r> or am I crazy? (which is certainly possible)
01:55 < jim_chat> I got popcorn out of it.
01:56 < Peetz0r> jim_chat: you're welcome. now can I have some? :D
01:56 < triceratux> the main differences between linux distros have nothing to do with the kernel but are basically expressed in the initrd, the dns resolution, & the packagemanagement
01:56 < jim_chat> Peetz0r: Have some of mine but it's extra salty
01:57 < pnbeast> Peetz0r, if a troll is worth a dime, does any one person's response matter significantly?
01:57 < sauvin> triceratux, with "initrd" do you include the init system?
01:57 < k2gremlin> Made a simple script to count to 10 with a delay of 3 between each count. I have a class that wants me to add SIGINT and SIGTERM to the program but not sure I understand what its doing
01:57 < sauvin> k2gremlin, what language?
01:57 < triceratux> sauvin: the first couple passes at it, yeah
01:58 < djph> Peetz0r: pretty much, "we know, now deal with it"
01:58 < k2gremlin> sauvin, has us using .scr
01:58 < sauvin> What the hell is ".src"?
01:58 < sauvin> Erm, "scr"?
01:58 < pnbeast> k2gremlin, you seldom "add SIGINT" to a program, you sometimes add "signal handling" to one, though.
01:58 < k2gremlin> python just file name .scr lol
01:59 < sauvin> I don't remember that python uses ".scr".
01:59 < luke-jr> .scr is Windows screensaver. basically .exe
01:59 < luke-jr> usually used by viruses
01:59 < pnbeast> Isn't that a windows screensaver form 20 years ago?
01:59 < pnbeast> Sounds right.
01:59 < djph> ... isn't '.py' the generally agreed-upon extension?
01:59 < SporkWitch> yes
01:59 < sauvin> Even further back, I seem to remember ".scr" as being screen images under some DOS program or other.
02:00 < k2gremlin> "1.	In the same folder as last week, create a new file titled week4prog1[name].scr. " thats my instructions :/
02:00 < k2gremlin> lol
02:00 < sauvin> k2gremlin, you *swear* it's python?
02:00 < k2gremlin> I run the file with ./
02:00 < k2gremlin> #!bin/bash
02:00 < k2gremlin> :P
02:00 < pnbeast> k2gremlin, that's not really the instruction we need.  If you want help, we need to know your real goal.  Can you describe that?
02:00 < sauvin> o.O
02:00 < sauvin> So, you're trying to add interrupt handlers to bash scripts?
02:01 < pnbeast> You don't even know what language you're writing in?  We might not be able to help you.
02:01 < SporkWitch> k2gremlin: 1) what is it you're trying to do? 2) link the source of these "instructions"
02:01 < Loshki> k2gremlin: did you fall asleep in class? Some details are missing...
02:01 < sauvin> Lots of details, I'd think.
02:01 < AmR|EiSa> How I can add second language to linux terminal ? like arabic ?
02:01 < k2gremlin> http://prntscr.com/j8ro7c
02:01 < k2gremlin> thats the "instructions"
02:02 < AmR|EiSa> And Add short key like desktop ?
02:02 < SporkWitch> k2gremlin: i didn't ask for a screenshot, i asked for a link
02:02 < NullTheSecond> Is there a user-friendly GUI tool for Fedora 27 KDE Plasma to reset the drivers?
02:02 < k2gremlin> http://prntscr.com/j8rod5  what I have so far.
02:02 < NullTheSecond> I cannot figure it out, I need something super-easy
02:02 < SporkWitch> k2gremlin: and where did you find this screenshot without context?
02:02 < k2gremlin> SporkWitch, its a link on my school website. Without an account you cant reach
02:02 < sauvin> That doesn't tell us what language you're working with. Without knowing that, we have no idea how to tell you how to add signal handlers.
02:03 < SporkWitch> k2gremlin: gotcha, so you want us doing your homework for you
02:03 < k2gremlin> SporkWitch, not at all. Just not sure how this is supposed to work
02:03 < k2gremlin> trying to understand it
02:03 < NullTheSecond> Or should I nuke my install again?
02:03 < NullTheSecond> Seems like a common thing on GNU/Linux
02:03 < SporkWitch> k2gremlin: i recommend reading this week's chapter in the textbook, or whatever other course materials you were given this week
02:03 < pnbeast> k2gremlin, is it due tomorrow morning?
02:03 < SporkWitch> k2gremlin: return when you have a very specific question and can actually give the details necessary to help you
02:03 < djph> SporkWitch: and maybe last week's, and the week before's
02:04 < k2gremlin> pnbeast, No not due for a week so I have some time
02:04 < pnbeast> k2gremlin, that's really good for you!
02:04 < sauvin> Good. In that time, determine what language you're working with. ".scr" doesn't tell us a damn thing.
02:04 < Sveta2> NullTheSecond, depends on how you installed them
02:05  * pnbeast wonders if some prof decided Linux commands should have extensions and that scripts would best be .scr.
02:05 < k2gremlin> Understood.. Ill dig a big and see if I can be more specific
02:05 < revel> Last time I checked, .scr was for screensavers on Windows.
02:05 < SporkWitch> pnbeast: i could see that... if he's going to a community college there's a good chance the prof doesn't know a damn thing about what he's doing...
02:05 < djph> pnbeast: probably.
02:05 < sauvin> Sounds about right, but I also seem to remember that .scr was some kind of Windows executable.
02:05 < djph> SporkWitch: hell, it could be a somewhat well-respected private college as well
02:05 < k2gremlin> ^^^^ Agree with all of you
02:06 < Loshki> NullTheSecond: if you're willing to reinstall, you have nothing to lose by asking on #fedora
02:06 < SporkWitch> pnbeast: i actually had to deal with that just a year and a half ago; prof didn't know how to use wpa_supplicant to connect to a secured AP, didn't know what aptitutude was, couldn't figure out how to pipe to grep...
02:06 < NullTheSecond> Sveta2: Installed via this https://www.if-not-true-then-false.com/2015/fedora-nvidia-guide/ Uninstalled via this https://www.if-not-true-then-false.com/2015/fedora-nvidia-guide/3/
02:06 < sauvin> http://filext.com/file-extension/SCR
02:06 < pnbeast> Everyone, even college profs, grows up in windows-land these days and is more than willing to conform.  So sad...
02:07 < SporkWitch> djph: yeah, but at least at an actual university the chances are BETTER he has someone competent.  granted I went to a really good uni, but i only ran into one prof in a technical course that was actually incompetent (two if you count maths)
02:08 < SporkWitch> djph: (speaking of cvs, earlier, that incompetent java prof forced us to use cvs and explicitly prohibited git lol)
02:08 < djph> SporkWitch: I had exactly one (1) competent professor each in CS and Mathematics.  The remainder of the CS professors were out of their depth (although, I think that was more because the university went "hurrdurr, teach Java!!!")
02:08 < S55S5SS5SS> NullTheSecond: not sure if the link overs this, but the nvidia instller can uninstall itself. or used to be able to at least
02:09 < S55S5SS5SS> it sprinkles some proprietary .so's about your system
02:09 < djph> ... and the other two maths teachers were fresh off the boat from god knows where.  I've had less of an accent dealing with "Ben from Windows Support" than those two ...
02:10 < SporkWitch> djph: there's a difference between being a little behind and incompetence.  my sysadmin prof was a bit behind on certain things, but he knew his limitations and sought help on them from those that did; everyone benefited as a result.  the java prof, on the other hand, was outright incompetent and couldn't be made to realize it, and so everyone suffered.
02:10 < Trel> When using nmcli to look at a connection profile, how can I make it show the hidden fields?
02:10 < SporkWitch> djph: the maths prof in my case simply didn't teach the material, full-stop.  he'd write partial proofs on the board and expect you to figure everything out on your own, and spend the entirety of what is SUPPOSED to be lecture bitching about interdepartmental politics and saying outright that he WILL NOT teach the material
02:11 < djph> SporkWitch: So then what's it when they're a little behind, and refuse to acknowledge the student may, in fact, be right this time around?
02:11 < sauvin> I've never had much patience with people who put on airs. Intellectual dishonesty is a big turn-off.
02:11 < SporkWitch> djph: that lack of self-awareness is one manifestation of incompetence
02:11 < Trel> Nevermind, I had to put --show-secrets earlier in the command
02:12  * sauvin goes back to proving just how smart he ain't by continuing to swear at erlang
02:12 < NullTheSecond> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_xorg.conf This causes a blackscreen on boot. I have to do `sudo rm -rf /etc/X11/xorg.conf` to reboot back into low res
02:13 < djph> now, thanks to that lot (and a bit of a needing a rather brutal awakening that "college is hard, kay?"), I suck something awful at programming :)
02:13 < revel> NullTheSecond: Recursive removal on a single file?
02:13 < djph> NullTheSecond: don't break xorg.conf then?
02:13 < NullTheSecond> It's long broken
02:13 < S55S5SS5SS> even the console is low res?
02:13 < NullTheSecond> Is there a default xorg.conf for fedora 27 (KDE Plasma)
02:13 < djph> o_O
02:13 < NullTheSecond> Nah, the console's fine
02:14 < revel> Do you need one? Can't you just stick any additional stuff you want in xorg.conf.d?
02:15 < jim> djph, I'd say said person would be insisting that he's incompetent
02:16 < NullTheSecond> I need a reset on xorg.conf
02:16 < NullTheSecond> Can't generate a new one
02:16 < djph> jim: eh, was a long time ago now ... and not even in a programming-oriented job, so
02:16 < djph> *so no big deal, I guess
02:17 < revel> NullTheSecond: In case you didn't read the page you yourself linked, "The X configuration is automatically determined each time X is started"
02:17 < konimex> so what's the news on that Linux with Javascript as its userland?
02:17 < revel> Does it not work when you remove the xorg.conf?
02:17 < S55S5SS5SS> konimex: nobody actually uses that stuff, right?
02:18 < jim> yeah, or clinging to his incompetence (I was lucky, I had really great teachers, music, math)
02:18 < NullTheSecond> When I copied the generated xorg.conf to /etc/x11/xorg.conf , it blackscreened. I removed it and now I'm back with low resolution, which is what I'm trying to fix
02:18 < NullTheSecond> I can't set my monitor to 1920x1080
02:18 < S55S5SS5SS> try xrandr
02:18 < revel> NullTheSecond: You're probably better off with adding stuff to xorg.conf.d instead.
02:18 < konimex> i don't know, maybe some people use it for the lulz
02:19 < revel> Not sure what exactly...
02:19 < revel> Or maybe you just need the right modules or firmware.
02:21 < djph> jim: best prof I had was an old timer - had paper tape of some random maths equations, MFM drives, etc just chilling in his office.  The one class I got him as the prof for, he took our smartass responses to "what languages do you know" ... and then gave us examples in said languages.
02:21 < djph> konimex: I hear it works quite nicely on mobile phones
02:25 < sauvin> What "linux" has a javascript userland!?
02:25 < pnbeast> sauvin, you're not use JSINUX, yet?  It's the latest rage.
02:26 < sauvin> I'm an old fart and often don't hear about new stuff until long afterwards.
02:26 < djph> ohhh... java *script* ... yeah, that changed things.
02:27 < djph> s/changed/changes/
02:27 < lupine> using JS in the DE was all the rage for gnome3 and kde4
02:27 < k2gremlin> sauvin, pnbeast I was seriously over thinking the assignment. They just wanted to sigint to stop ctrl+c from stopping the program and a sigterm message stating the program has terminated lol
02:27 < pnbeast> I'm running JSINUX Kali, now, to probe all my regular systems for Javascript holes!  More traditional users are using JSINUX Debian, which is stable but all its packages are from 3 months ago.  JSINUX Gentoo users get the same thing, because it's Javascript and doesn't actually get compiled.
02:27 < k2gremlin> think I have what I need
02:28 < sauvin> k2gremlin, do you know how to work with signal handlers in the language you're using?
02:28 < pnbeast> k2gremlin, that's referred to as "handling" or "catching" signals.
02:28 < joebobjoe> Why is inotify so hard to use? Are there any wrapper libraries that can actually handle inotify's races/caveats in a complete manner?
02:28 < sauvin> pnbeast, also, "trapping".
02:28 < sauvin> joebobjoe, what kind of trouble are you running into?
02:28 < pnbeast> Fine, also trapping.  Damn you, sauvin!
02:28 < k2gremlin> not really but slowly learning
02:28  * sauvin sniggers
02:29 < k2gremlin> this class text is using "trapping"
02:29 < sauvin> k2gremlin, have you determined what language you're working with yet?
02:29 < k2gremlin> :)
02:29 < k2gremlin> its just bash isn't it?
02:29 < pnbeast> joebobjoe, because I/O is actually a complicated problem, it's not as easy as people tend to think due to their OS mostly handling it for them.
02:29 < k2gremlin> idk
02:29 < sauvin> o.O
02:29 < k2gremlin> lol
02:29 < k2gremlin> I can feel you laughing at me from here
02:29 < sauvin> I fear greatly for system administration in the coming years.
02:29 < k2gremlin> pfftttt
02:30 < k2gremlin> this is just a required course... I am a network admin
02:30 < k2gremlin> screw servers
02:30 < k2gremlin> lol
02:30 < k2gremlin> Unix/Linux "networking" class that has me doing some basic scripting
02:30 < djph> sauvin: don't worry about it, wintards have pretty much already entirely taken over.
02:30 < k2gremlin> No clue why
02:30 < pnbeast> k2gremlin, it's IRC.  We all laugh at everyone.
02:31  * sauvin fears greatly for administration of all sorts in the coming years
02:31 < k2gremlin> I really should stick to the network IRC :)
02:31 < SporkWitch> k2gremlin: i don't care what you do in computing, if you want to do more than geek squad, learn scripting
02:31 < suttin> k2gremlin: breh you take that back. without servers, your pretty network is worthless :P
02:32 < joebobjoe> sauvin: I want to be able to monitor a named directory hierarchy efficiently, using as much of capability of inotify/dnotify/etc as possible, while only falling back to manually scanning when intofiy overflows.
02:32 < k2gremlin> suttin, without networks, your servers are pretty useless! :P
02:32 < suttin> we have sneakernet
02:32 < sauvin> joebobjoe, what language are you using?
02:32 < suttin> :P
02:32 < suttin> brb
02:32 < k2gremlin> lol
02:32 < djph> k2gremlin: not really.  See mainframes.
02:32 < joebobjoe> sauvin: c
02:32 < sauvin> Ugh. Can't help with that.
02:33 < k2gremlin> My mind is full of BGP route tagging with vrfs and multicast scoping... can't fit server scripting in there  :(
02:33 < sauvin> Seems to me last time I had to worry about handling incoming files as they arrived, I used incrond.
02:33 < NullTheSecond> How can I set my monitor resolution to 1920x1080?
02:33 < sauvin> NullTheSecond, assuming your hardware supports it (including the driver), have you tried arandr?
02:34 < joebobjoe> pnbeast: io is hard. Isn't it true that there are limitations inherent in the posix and Linux socket apis that prevent efficient handling of events when doing async io?
02:34 < NullTheSecond> Without third-party software, other that what's included in Fedora 27 (KDE Plasma)
02:35 < NullTheSecond> I removed the Nvidia drivers as I want the open-source drivers, not I cannot set my monitor's resolution
02:35 < NullTheSecond> No help is online
02:35 < NullTheSecond> I've searched for 2+ hours now
02:35 < pnbeast> joebobjoe, sounds good to me.  I have NFI!  There are limitations inherent to any set of rules that affect I/O.
02:35 < suttin> i got tired of windows being..... windows. Just removed it from my dual boot and did a fresh install of fedora 27
02:35 < joebobjoe> I heard that the Linux socket api somehow prevents making full use of efficient async io
02:35 < m`r_white^rabbit> NullTheSecond, have you read all of the Xfree86 Xorg documentation
02:35 < sauvin> joebobjoe, I recently wrote an all-perl server using sockets that had no trouble handling tens of thousands of connections.
02:35 < suttin> nothing like a fresh install that I haven't messed up yet
02:35 < m`r_white^rabbit> all of it
02:36 < SporkWitch> joebobjoe: there's a cap on max concurrent watched files/directories, yes, that's why things like plex do intermittent scans
02:36 < NullTheSecond> I wish GNU/Linux was more user-friendly
02:36 < NullTheSecond> With Windows, it's super easy to add and remove drivers
02:36 < NullTheSecond> With GNU/Linux, it breaks your entire system
02:36 < Sveta> NullTheSecond, it is easy with linux too, you normally use the package manager
02:36 < pnbeast> NullTheSecond, more user friendly than *what*?  You can literally have the source code for free!
02:36 < m`r_white^rabbit> then use Windows
02:36 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: if that's what you want, install kubuntu and call it a day; linux is VERY user friendly when you use a distro with that as its goal
02:36 < m`r_white^rabbit> stop whining
02:37 < Sveta> NullTheSecond, if the vendor does not package the driver for a linux distribution, perhaps it is their fault equally as much as linux's fault
02:37 < m`r_white^rabbit> well said Sveta
02:37 < revel> With Windows, when you get an update that breaks graphics, the official answer is "restore a backup"
02:37 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: there's no need or reason to be dicking around with the stuff you are on a modern workstation linux distro unless YOU CHOOSE TO.  If you're forced to do this stuff, it means you made a bad choice of distro
02:37 < pnbeast> Seconded - normally drives in Linux are transparent, much easier than in Windows land.
02:37 < Sveta> NullTheSecond, for nvidia questions i'd highly recommend #nvidia, they have experience troubleshooting that kind of problems
02:37 < pnbeast> *drivers
02:37 < revel> Well, that was quite a bit of fun in response to that.
02:37 < m`r_white^rabbit> and especially when Vendors keep binary blobs and firmware a closed secret
02:38 < NullTheSecond> Alright Sveta
02:38 < pnbeast> nvidia are pretty bad about playing well with Linux.  Someone might steal their trade secrets if they release source, I guess.  I guess they think...
02:38 < NullTheSecond> I was just saying that as a noob, Windows is far, far easier currently. I would like that to change one day
02:38 < djph> revel: pretty sure the "official" MSFT response is "bend over, here it comes again"
02:38 < joebobjoe> NullTheSecond: blame that on two things. 1) vendors don't provide hardware specs, 2) gnu opposes cross-platform driver interfaces/framework
02:39 < revel> djph: Well, there's a reason Windows makes backups every time you install anything...
02:39 < SporkWitch> m`r_white^rabbit: nvidia has excellent linux support, his problem is neither the fault of nvidia nor linux, but of choosing a distro that expects him to do it all himself
02:39 < djph> revel: it does?  I've never seen those work myself.
02:39 < Sveta> SporkWitch: which distro is that?
02:39 < pnbeast> NullTheSecond, as a Linux user for many years, who didn't start with Windows, Windows has always been harder.
02:39 < m`r_white^rabbit> well yeah I use AMD, Nvidia and Intel GPU all on the same system but I use KVM PCI passthrough for the AMD and NVIDIA to mine crypto
02:40 < joebobjoe> When something goes wrong on Windows you can't fix it
02:40 < m`r_white^rabbit> GNU/Linux is amazing
02:40 < djph> but then I got out for good back with win vista / 7 being the "currently available" options.
02:40 < SporkWitch> djph: it does, it's part of why the patches take so damn long to reboot.  it doesn't do much good, though, because by the time it shits the bed, you're beyond using that recovery anyway (not to mention every piece of windows malware on the planet also uses it, to reinstall itself lol)
02:40 < pnbeast> djph, come on, I heard great things about vista!
02:40 < NullTheSecond> pnbeast: I used Windows for 17~ years, then switched as I started to hate closed-source software
02:40 < NullTheSecond> I personally find Windows easier
02:41 < SporkWitch> Sveta: i don't know what distro he's using, but the fact that he's been dicking around with xorg.conf and the like means he's not using one intended for newbies that want a workstation OS
02:41 < djph> pnbeast: was just a temporal reference, nothing about the OS options themselves.
02:41 < joebobjoe> m`r_white^rabbit: you beat me to that binary/closed blob response
02:41 < djph> SporkWitch: Fedora ... whatever's current
02:41 < m`r_white^rabbit> NullTheSecond, have you even tried nvidia-settings
02:41 < Sveta> NullTheSecond, what distribution are you using?
02:41 < NullTheSecond> Fedora 27 (KDE Plasma)
02:41 < SporkWitch> Sveta: take your pick of the modern home workstation-focused distros, there's no need or reason to be dicking around that low in the system
02:42 < m`r_white^rabbit> actually I just read that you are not using the proprietary package, so you probably wont be using nvidia-settings
02:42 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: if you want something that "just works" look at one of the debian-based distros with that as the primary goal.  Ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu, mint
02:42 < Sveta> NullTheSecond, while comparisons have some utility in them in the sense of introducing an improvement in one system that is already present in another, i think that i already suggested that you ask the distro AND the vendor to put effort into packaging the driver, and this is more of a communication and collaboration issue than an issue of the platform
02:42 < suttin> arch
02:42 < NullTheSecond> Doesn't Ubuntu collect user data about you now?
02:42 < revel> SporkWitch: Aren't all of those aside from Ubuntu itself Ubuntu-based?
02:42 < SporkWitch> i know unity did, but i hear they no longer use unity
02:43 < Sveta> NullTheSecond, so i'd suggest you to do that, in the least effort and maximum effect way possible :)
02:43 < m`r_white^rabbit> NullTheSecond, install Xubuntu
02:43 < m`r_white^rabbit> done
02:43 < SporkWitch> revel: forks, yes; i'm sure there's others, but when it comes to "just works" it's where to go
02:43 < pnbeast> djph, my father keeps purchasing new windows computers whenever MS releases their least popular versions.  Vista was his last computer.  Now he has a laptop with 10 and he's disappointed that it sometimes wants to reboot when he's doing something.
02:43 < revel> NullTheSecond: If you don't click on the checkbox to disable that.
02:43 < m`r_white^rabbit> or install Ubuntu server minimal and learn how you can choose whatever DE or WM you want to install
02:43 < djph> pnbeast: did he never learn their release cycle?
02:43 < m`r_white^rabbit> from the ground up
02:44 < Dan39> NullTheSecond: how did you come up with your nick?
02:44 < SporkWitch> m`r_white^rabbit: safe to say we've already established he's not interested in that; he wants plug-and-play
02:44 < pnbeast> djph, I have no idea.  I've told him what I just said to you, a dozen times over, and suggested he wait to see how things shake out for a few months after a release, but...
02:44 < NullTheSecond> m`r_white^rabbit: When I run nvidia-settings, it tells me to run nvidia-xconfig , but when I do and restart, I get a black screen, so I have to remove /etc/X11/xorg.conf
02:45 < NullTheSecond> Dan39: I can't remember
02:46 < djph> pnbeast: heh, well, with 10's apparent "continual release" cycle, there's no worry of them ever coming out with a "tolerable" release again :)
02:46 < m`r_white^rabbit> NullTheSecond, do yourself a favour, purge fedora and install xubuntu
02:46 < SporkWitch> djph: i'm just impressed they haven't had the golden keys leaked yet lol
02:46 < NullTheSecond> I don't have the data to do that this month
02:46 < djph> SporkWitch: the whatsitnow?
02:46 < NullTheSecond> I've only got Fedora's KDE spin on me
02:46 < m`r_white^rabbit> what is this
02:46 < m`r_white^rabbit> KDE
02:47 < NullTheSecond> KDE Plasma
02:47 < SporkWitch> djph: the keys that let a remote computer force it to install arbitrary software without user interaction; e.g. windows update itself
02:47 < Dan39> "the data"?
02:47 < djph> $5 says it's just a poorly implemented cronjob.
02:47 < Dan39> why do you have a data cap?
02:47 < m`r_white^rabbit> NullTheSecond, what you have is a distro filled with a bloated and buggy DE called KDE
02:47 < djph> Dan39: probably a data cap
02:47 < Sveta> m`r_white^rabbit: nvidia should work with fedora, please do not derail the conversation
02:48 < m`r_white^rabbit> *should*
02:48 < m`r_white^rabbit> but what about GNU/KDE/Systemd/fedora/linux
02:48 < NullTheSecond> KDE Plasma is my choice and I like it
02:48 < Dan39> shut up m`r_white^rabbit
02:48 < Sveta> m`r_white^rabbit: i'm seeing that KDE or systemd really have nothing to do with nvidia, if you think that they do then this relevance needs to be made clear
02:48 < NullTheSecond> Not a minimalist
02:48 < SporkWitch> djph: still gonna be keys somewhere so it knows it's talking to the server that's allowed to tell it to install and run arbitrary code; just a matter of time
02:48 < m`r_white^rabbit> Dan39, why the hostility punk
02:48 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: k, so like i said, download a kubuntu iso, install, call it a day
02:48 < Dan39> cuz you punk
02:49 < Dan39> punk
02:49 < djph> SporkWitch: ahh, you're talking about the signing keys then?
02:49 < m`r_white^rabbit> Shut up Dan39
02:49 < NullTheSecond> I can't download the ISOs as I don't have the data
02:49 < SporkWitch> djph: host keys as well, i imagine
02:49 < NullTheSecond> I've got this buggy, low resolution setup for the rest of the month it seems
02:49 < Sveta> NullTheSecond: you don't have to hop distros for this (unless #nvidia provides an educated overview of why this is needed)
02:49 < suttin> holy cow, fresh fedora install, upgrade is 1500 things
02:49 < NullTheSecond> #nvidia hasn't responded
02:50 < sauvin> m`r_white^rabbit, Dan39, get a room.
02:50 < m`r_white^rabbit> NullTheSecond, did you take a look at the difference in the xorg.conf after nvidia changes it
02:50 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: ask your neighbour?
02:50 < triceratux> suttin: thats a good thing. that proves they put work into the repo between cutting the ISOs
02:50 < djph> SporkWitch: windows can use those? and here I thought their networking was built around a hope and a prayer.
02:50 < Dan39> NullTheSecond: you running nvidia right now?
02:51 < Dan39> nvidia driver that is
02:51 < suttin> triceratux: I know that, but thats a lot of updates for a newish version of fedora
02:51 < SporkWitch> djph: it's my hope and prayer that there's at least the semblance of security around a system that installs updates without your consent and in spite of your explicit refusal
02:51 < suttin> and there might very well be an update by the time im done with this update
02:51 < NullTheSecond> I have removed Nvidia's drivers, but if I re-install them, it goes back to the normal resolution
02:51 < NullTheSecond> But my goal is to remove their drivers and go back to the open-source drivers
02:51 < triceratux> suttin: f27 isnt newish. f28 is just around the corner
02:51 < SporkWitch> djph: hmm... i wonder if i could get the feminists to back me, since MSFT is basically raping their computers...
02:51 < m`r_white^rabbit> NullTheSecond, if you are getting a black screen after the xorg.conf change, check what is changing, use process of elimination, find what is causing the black screen
02:51 < djph> SporkWitch: yeah, but it's windows you're talking about.
02:51 < Dan39> NullTheSecond: are you doing any gaming?
02:51 < suttin> triceratux: oh well then I have apparently been putting off the 27 upgrade on my laptop for a while lol
02:52 < Dan39> or other gfx intensive stuff...
02:52 < SporkWitch> djph: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8JtCCXIEAAxeWQ.jpg
02:52 < Sveta> NullTheSecond: i'm presuming you're already spekaing with #nvidia and they're providing you with sound advice about this issue
02:52 < NullTheSecond> I am, their proprietary drivers work for Far Cry 5 on GNU/Linux, but now I need to use Wine Gallium Nine, but that needs the open-source drivers
02:52 < djph> SporkWitch: hehehehe
02:52 < Dan39> NullTheSecond: what graphics card?
02:52 < triceratux> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/28/Schedule
02:52 < NullTheSecond> Sveta: No response yet
02:52 < NullTheSecond> GTX 1070
02:53 < Dan39> you can also try #nouveau
02:53 < Sveta> NullTheSecond: what Dan39 said, i didn't fully realize what you were trying to do
02:53 < m`r_white^rabbit> NullTheSecond, know that nouveau could be called noview for 1070/1080
02:53 < NullTheSecond> It worked before I installed Nvidia's drivers m`r_white^rabbit /shrug
02:54 < Dan39> nouveau might really suck for the 1070 and gaming
02:54 < Sveta> NullTheSecond: i'm assuming that you rebooted after removing nvidia's drivers too
02:54 < NullTheSecond> Yeah
02:54 < m`r_white^rabbit> NullTheSecond, like I said, use process of elimination, check what is changing
02:54 < Dan39> the feature matrix says the NV130 line doesnt have reclocking with nouveau
02:54 < Sveta> NullTheSecond: and you tried removing and re-installing nouveau via your distribution's package manager
02:54 < NullTheSecond> Yeah
02:54 < Dan39> which means it will run at an awful slow clock speed
02:55 < NullTheSecond> I followed this https://www.if-not-true-then-false.com/2015/fedora-nvidia-guide/3/
02:55 < joebobjoe> Is there a more development-oriented Linux chan?
02:55 < NullTheSecond> I installed using their other guide
02:55 < Dan39> NullTheSecond: install the nvidia driver and boot up with no xorg.conf then we can see from there. that works, right?
02:56 < Dan39> just gives you a shitty resolution?
02:56 < NullTheSecond> Installing Nvidia's gives me the correct resolution
02:56 < Dan39> oh, whats wrong then?
02:56 < NullTheSecond> But I don't want their drivers anymore
02:56 < SporkWitch> noveau is crap
02:56 < Dan39> oh because you want gallium nine?
02:56 < NullTheSecond> Yeah
02:57 < Dan39> i would just go with nvidia driver
02:57 < SporkWitch> ^
02:57 < NullTheSecond> I need it for this one thing :P
02:57 < SporkWitch> what one thing?
02:57 < NullTheSecond> Halo Online
02:57 < Sveta> well it was working before
02:57  * SporkWitch loves XY problems
02:57 < Dan39> i dont know if gallium nine is going to help much if the clock speed of gpu is at minium the whole time
02:57 < SporkWitch> ....
02:57 < Sveta> and you touched it
02:57 < Sveta> why
02:57 < Sveta> can you please not touch working things
02:57 < Dan39> because linux Sveta
02:57 < Dan39> thats what linux people do
02:58 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: give up; 1) halo sucks, 2) it's first-party microsoft, they actively do everything they can to make their stuff not work with anything non-microsoft
02:58 < NullTheSecond> I used Nvidia's drivers for Far Cry 4/Primal/5 , but now I want the open-source drivers for Halo Online
02:58 < Sveta> Dan39: thats not what linux people should do, they should make new apps for their desktops
02:58 < Sveta> what is halo online
02:58 < NullTheSecond> Halo 3~
02:58 < Dan39> that sounds like linux developer people
02:58 < SporkWitch> Sveta: garbage lol
02:58 < Dan39> we aren't all developers
02:58 < Sveta> Dan39: reporting bugs, testing apps, translating documentation to their language, writing new documentation
02:59 < Sveta> Dan39: not "nouveau works, lets install nvidia now to kill time"
02:59 < Dan39> well if you want to contribute... sure
02:59 < SporkWitch> Sveta: other way around: nvidia works, nouveau doesn't
02:59 < Sveta> SporkWitch: but he said nouveau worked before he started installing nvidia
02:59 < SporkWitch> Sveta: i read it the other way around
02:59 < Sveta> SporkWitch: or did I get that wrong?
03:00 < SporkWitch> Sveta: and someone else said there are known issues with nouveau and 1070/1080 right now, and he said he's on 1070
03:00 < Sveta> I like people's confusion, it keeps my brains on
03:00 < NullTheSecond> Sveta: nouveau worked before he started installing nvidia, yes
03:00 < Sveta> woohoo
03:00 < SporkWitch> that's doubly odd... sounds like user error
03:00 < m`r_white^rabbit> SporkWitch, I just know when I booted my machine with nouveau and a 1080ti, it was not pleasant, dmesg was spamming the console at boot and it was unusable
03:00 < SporkWitch> if you're going to have trouble with nvidia on linux, it's more likely to be nouveau, not the binaries
03:00 < Sveta> SporkWitch: and he did reboot after removing nvidia, so it does sound a little fishy
03:01 < Dan39> NullTheSecond: before who started? you aren't the one trying this? im confused...
03:01 < SporkWitch> m`r_white^rabbit: it's nouveau, it's never pleasnat
03:01 < SporkWitch> s/snat/sant/
03:01 < m`r_white^rabbit> SporkWitch, exactly why I pronounce it "no view"
03:01 < m`r_white^rabbit> it works good on a Geforce FX6200 though
03:01 < m`r_white^rabbit> with 64MB VRAM
03:02 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: where do you live that you have a download cap that won't let you download a second ISO in a month?
03:02 < NullTheSecond> Worked good on a GTX 1070 until I touched it
03:02 < NullTheSecond> Rural AU
03:02 < m`r_white^rabbit> that thing does glxgears at 60fps
03:02 < SporkWitch> ah, australia, the one place that does have really bad caps :(
03:02 < Dan39> order a dvd :p
03:02 < Dan39> ship it
03:02 < NullTheSecond> Heh, apply the 'Australia Tax' and the new 10% GST rule onto it
03:02 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: have you checked for local mirrors?  It's my understanding that most australian ISPs have lots of stuff that they mirror and don't count against your cap
03:03 < NullTheSecond> All data counts against my cap
03:03 < NullTheSecond> No unmetered content allowed
03:03 < SporkWitch> bug a neighbour, then :)
03:03 < NullTheSecond> Got none :P
03:03 < Dan39> that really sucks... how much data do you get a month?
03:03 < m`r_white^rabbit> that is hell
03:03 < NullTheSecond> 100GB, but we've basically used it all
03:03 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: send a kangaroo with a flash drive
03:04 < gurki> NullTheSecond: less porn!
03:04 < pnbeast> Hell, send koala bears.
03:04 < SporkWitch> pnbeast: the 'roo has more storage
03:05 < NullTheSecond> gurki: Sorry
03:05 < pnbeast> That's true - onboard storage is a kangaroo win.  It's like koalas are USB 1 and kangaroos are USB 3.
03:05 < m`r_white^rabbit> NullTheSecond, but how much is "basically" ... can you not even download a net install image and just install minimal packages required during console installation of ubuntu server or something
03:06  * SporkWitch makes an australian version of dropbox called dropbear
03:06 < NullTheSecond> 97.2GB/100GB
03:06 < m`r_white^rabbit> Do an netinst
03:06 < m`r_white^rabbit> that is what I recommend
03:07 < SporkWitch> m`r_white^rabbit: the whole point of making him start over with a user-friendly "just works" distro is to eliminate him needing to do things himself; netinst puts us in a similar boat to where we started
03:07 < Dan39> just use nvidia driver without gallium nine, case closed
03:07 < SporkWitch> in any case, he's only got a week until his cap resets
03:08 < Dan39> no reclocking on 1070, its useless to use nouveau
03:08 < Psi-Jack> It's always that last 0.150% of recovery that's just so annoying. ;)
03:08 < drsn0w> Hi folks, is anyone here familiar with dm-crypt and relevent kernel parameters?
03:08 < SporkWitch> drsn0w: If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later
03:08 < drsn0w> Fair enough :)
03:09 < drsn0w> I'm attempting a ZFS on dm-crypt root installation. (gentoo) Everything went well without a hitch until I tried to reboot. It appears that the kernel is searching for the zpool before the disk gets unlocked. Anyone have any tips on fixing this issue?
03:09 < drsn0w>  I'm never prompted for the encryption password and it errors with not being able to find the root of ZFS=rpool/ROOT/gentoo
03:09 < drsn0w> I also asked in #gentoo but thought I'd see if anyone here knew as well
03:09 < SporkWitch> drsn0w: need to make sure you specify things correctly in grub; the arch wiki instructions on FDE should have what you need
03:10 < drsn0w> Hmmm, I'll take a look, thank you, SporkWitch
03:13 < qkzoo1978> how do I "rm" or "ls" all files in a dir that have "()" in their filenames?
03:13 < SporkWitch> qkzoo1978: could use find w/ exec
03:14 < qkzoo1978> Hello
03:14 < Psi-Jack> SporkWitch: Why exec?
03:14 < SporkWitch> Psi-Jack: read his question
03:14 < Psi-Jack> I did.
03:14 < SporkWitch> Psi-Jack: then you have your answer
03:14 < Psi-Jack> No exec needed.
03:15 < Psi-Jack> Just find, to find files with a -name '*()*'
03:16 < sauvin> How about -name '*(*)*' ?
03:16 < Psi-Jack> Possible too, but he only mentioned specifically () ;)
03:16 < Psi-Jack> He even quoted it. :)
03:17 < sauvin> find -name '*(*)*' -exec ls -l {} \; # just to be sure
03:17 < Psi-Jack> Still wondering why the -exec at all. :)
03:17 < SporkWitch> you're only wondering because you didn't read his question
03:17 < Psi-Jack> find outputs matches.
03:17 < Psi-Jack> If you use -delete, you can delete the resulting matches.
03:17 < Psi-Jack> No -exec required. :)
03:18 < sauvin> OK, so, does find have an -ls verb?
03:18 < Dan39> or -print / -printf
03:18 < Psi-Jack> It has a -printf,
03:19  * sauvin makes note to self: when tired of wrestling with erlang, investigate find more deeply
03:19 < Psi-Jack> heh
03:19 < sauvin> You laugh, but it's this very channel, and people like YOU, that pointed out that a lot of the things I used to do with perl scripts are better done with existing tools such as find.
03:19 < Psi-Jack> Ahh, finally, my ceph rebalance is done, again. Now for the next drive. :)
03:20 < Psi-Jack> sauvin: Indeed. That's why I sometimes question even the helpers, to give better help. :)
03:20 < SporkWitch> when you aren't actively encouraging trolls
03:20 < Psi-Jack> I never encourage trolls.
03:20 < SporkWitch> lol
03:22 < qkzoo1978> find -name '*()*' seems to work. How do I pipe it for rm?
03:22 < SporkWitch> qkzoo1978: -exec
03:22 < Dan39> we just told you to use -delete
03:22 < Dan39> what is wrong with -delete?
03:23 < uplime> its not posix
03:23 < SporkWitch> Dan39: nothing, i usually point them to exec because they can easily adapt it to whatever other thing they need to pass it to
03:23 < qkzoo1978> is -delete a flag for find?
03:23 < uplime> qkzoo1978: for gnu find, yes
03:23 < qkzoo1978> Ok, thanks I'll try it out.
03:23 < Dan39> uplime: not posix? -_-
03:23 < SporkWitch> qkzoo1978: ALWAYS do a simple print/ls first before a destructive command with find, just to be safe
03:24 < uplime> Dan39: its not
03:24 < Dan39> i wasnt questioning you lol
03:24 < dannylee> <">
03:24 < qkzoo1978> SporkWitch ya, I did :)
03:25 < qkzoo1978> Thanks for your helps folks. One of these days I'll memorize how to properly use find and grep.
03:25 < Dan39> just rtfm
03:25 < qkzoo1978> lol ya I probably should.
03:26 < SporkWitch> qkzoo1978: find is a bit arcane, and there's never any shame in checking manpages
03:26 < SporkWitch> qkzoo1978: https://www.xkcd.com/1168/
03:28 < sauvin> find's command line is certainly byzantine enough.
03:28 < qkzoo1978> SporkWitch lol
03:28 < suttin> tar -h
03:29 < suttin> oh well were dead
03:29 < suttin> I went meta
03:29 < sauvin> tar -xvf mycrap.tar.gz
03:29 < SporkWitch> file not found *BOOM*
03:30 < sauvin> It's a valid command. It didn't specify that the target file name exist.
03:31 < suttin> maybe $ (tar --version && echo $?) | tail -n 1
03:31 < suttin> 0
03:31 < suttin> boom roasted
03:33 < granttrec> I want to try containers for hobby development, for setting up isolated enviroments to do work, and easy clean up, what do u huys use for containers
03:33 < granttrec> ?
03:33 < SporkWitch> granttrec: docker is the usual go-to
03:33 < masuberu> good morning all
03:33 < SporkWitch> masuberu: that's an oxymoron
03:33 < suttin> granttrec: docker
03:33 < bazhang> docker, I'd say
03:34 < prussian> tar cf - --transform='s|bomb/armed$|bomb/disarmed|' bomb | tar -xf - && rm -f -- bomb/armed
03:34 < prussian> there, disarmed
03:34 < masuberu> my linux server is not booting up, I get an error "failed to start nfsv4 id-name mapping service"
03:34  * sauvin throws cold water on prussian 
03:34 < granttrec> wow that was easy huh, why do you guys like docker, popularity or just ez?
03:34 < sauvin> granttrec, "you", not "u", and "easy", not "ez".
03:34 < SporkWitch> i don't use it myself, like i said, it's just the go-to
03:35 < triceratux> granttrec: it has a better logo than lxc
03:35 < granttrec> lol valid point
03:35 < suttin> granttrec: both. Also a lot of the popular container tools use docker
03:35 < SporkWitch> whalesay ftw
03:35 < sauvin> "whalesay"?
03:35 < suttin> and if you're learning something new anyway, might as well learn the most popular thing
03:36 < qkzoo1978> sauvin lol y u not like txt tlk?
03:36 < granttrec> suttin: makes sense
03:36 < SporkWitch> qkzoo1978: not everyone is a native english speaker; it's policy in this channel
03:36 < sauvin> qkzoo1978, bn l c ft chie.
03:36 < qkzoo1978> Ha, I get it.
03:36 < SporkWitch> i feel kind of proud that i have no idea what sauvin's comment means...
03:37 < qkzoo1978> I'm still deciphering
03:37 < jim> qkzoo1978, it's actually against channel policy (we;ve sometimes had to take action)
03:37 < prussian> whoa
03:37 < sauvin> It wasn't even English! I blame it partly on the fact that I'm presently trying to grok erlang "list comprehensions".
03:37 < SporkWitch> sauvin: i mean, do any of these millenials speak english?
03:38 < jml2> SporkWitch, I hate millenials. can't stand them.
03:38 < qkzoo1978> haha, I'm sharing a classroom with a bunch of them. They're not so bad.
03:38 < prussian> no
03:38 < SporkWitch> qkzoo1978: that's the stockholm syndrome talking
03:38 < sauvin> They certainly don't speak the Enlish I was taught fifty years ago and more.
03:38 < qkzoo1978> Quite possibly, I"m an old man in a young world.
03:39 < jim> a list comprehension in perl might look like [x]: x in 1..5, and that would produce [1,2,3,4,5]
03:39 < sauvin> Move over, geezer. You're taking up too much space on the park bench.
03:39 < qkzoo1978> People still use Perl?
03:39 < jim> absolutely
03:39 < sauvin> Yup.
03:39 < suttin> people still use PHP :(
03:40 < sauvin> $crap->($_) for @stuff;
03:40 < SporkWitch> perl is still extremely popular, though python is slowly overtaking it as the ecosystem has become more robust
03:40 < qkzoo1978> I know PHP is alive and well, but I thought Perl was seen as fairly archaic years ago.
03:40 < granttrec> also have to ask: does anyone use nix, is there any reason why it is not as popular as snap?
03:40 < sauvin> It'll be interesting to see how well perl6 does.
03:41 < sauvin> What are "nix" and "snap"?
03:41 < jim> even the perl folks liked python when it was forming
03:41 < SporkWitch> you're in ##linux, safe to say most of us use nix :)
03:41 < granttrec> sauvin: packagers
03:41 < qkzoo1978> I learn python, then I forget it and relearn it. Rinse, repeat.
03:41 < bazhang> snappy is the supposed new way to install packages, much like dmg for mac
03:41 < sauvin> I tried to learn python, but all this damn whitespace defeated me.
03:41 < triceratux> granttrec: https://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Nix-This-Innovative-OS-for-Its-Uninviting-Complexity-85289.html
03:41 < SporkWitch> granttrec: deb is still the most common, followed by rpm
03:42 < qkzoo1978> Python is easy to pick up, but if you don't keep playing with it, it's hard to retain if you set it aside.
03:42 < prussian> javascript is the future of all things
03:42 < qkzoo1978> I hate javascript.
03:42 < SporkWitch> qkzoo1978: true of any language
03:42 < prussian> too bad
03:43 < suttin> s/javascript/golang
03:43 < prussian> it's the future
03:43 < qkzoo1978> Javascript seems a discombobulated mess to me.
03:43 < suttin> its because javascript is a discombobulated mess
03:43 < granttrec> triceratux, you know the package manager is available as a standalone right?
03:44 < jml2> granttrec, you're a bimbo
03:44 < qkzoo1978> Does snappy work with Mint, or is it only compatible with Ubuntu?
03:44 < granttrec> SporkWitch, so basically it comes down to which has more software avaiable for it?
03:44 < triceratux> granttrec: yep & its a pretty simple idea actually that a number of the other alternative packagers come close to
03:45 < tunasalad> I've witnessed first time that black people code something for the systemd. When is that going to stop?
03:45 < SporkWitch> oh, nixos; i was looking at that, it sounded like a really neat concept, but more effort than it's worth when we've all already got our setup images and scripts
03:45 < tunasalad> *first hand even
03:45 < granttrec> jml2, ??
03:45 < Sveta> qkzoo1978: take a look at webasm
03:45 < tunasalad> ofm
03:45 < tunasalad> Judge, Sveta clearly doesn't like me.
03:46 < sauvin> Who cares what colour their skins are?
03:46 < SporkWitch> granttrec: well, yeah; there's better package managers out there than dpkg and yum, but it doesn't matter how good your package manager is if no one packages for it
03:46 < tunasalad> I do.
03:46 < tds> a
03:46 < tds> ...oops
03:46 < granttrec> SporkWitch: very true
03:46 < SporkWitch> sauvin: racists on the left who hate whites, and racists on the right who hate blacks
03:47 < jim> as far as snap, I think that's the new package format that ubuntu is bringing about (and I believe that's also in connection with microsoft): I use debian, which ubuntu is derived from... the deb package format has been around for a long time, and it's had plenty of time to settle... I don't see myself going to a different format without really good reasoning, and without a demonstration that snaps are (1) easy to build and take apart and (2) all the
03:47 < jim> relations between packages work and are very stable
03:47 <@sauvin> Race is irrelevant.
03:47 < granttrec> race is a concept eh, check the latest national geographic
03:47 < SporkWitch> agreed, but you asked who cared :)
03:47 < jml2> SporkWitch, rpm actually has features deb doesnt'.. though I rarely deal with rpm, the fact is it is more superior than the deb format
03:47 < SporkWitch> granttrec: no, it's a real thing, it's just not important outside of specific contexts such as risk of certain medical conditions
03:47 <@sauvin> SporkWitch, "rhetorical question".
03:48 < SporkWitch> jml2: and pacman's better than both; point remains, it doesn't matter how good it is if no one packages for it lol
03:48 < m`r_white^rabbit> when i first saw a process called "snapd" running after installing a fresh instance, i immediately killed it
03:48 <@sauvin> I've seen more than one person say that packaging for .rpm is craploads easier than for .deb.
03:48 < m`r_white^rabbit> without even knowing what it was
03:48 < jml2> ... i'm probably the only one who knows a very weird thing with Alt Linux's "apt-get install <.deb> file" -- ( it's undocumented and not mentioned anywhere afaik ) -- be great if apt-get supported this by default.
03:49 < jml2> or even /usr/bin/apt
03:49 < SporkWitch> jml2: kind of nutty that it doesn't, the syntax for installing from file is a bit odd and IIRC means interacting witht dpkg directly
03:49 < jim> jml2, well if you already have the file, you can use dpkg to install it
03:50 < jml2> ./typo it's "apt-get" uses rpms (alt linux)
03:50 < jml2> jim, dpkg -i .deb  doesn't resolve packages from repos..
03:50 < triceratux> altlinux is an rpm distro that uses apt-get & synaptic, yeah
03:50 < jml2> jim, the equiv with yum is with 'localinstall" ..
03:50 < SporkWitch> jim: his point is that there's no "easy" way; "(apt-get | aptitude) install [path to file]" would be logical
03:51 <@sauvin> o.O
03:51 < granttrec> jim: i'm not sure either but seems to be popular right now and I wonder why
03:51 < jml2> there is gdebi-core things...  but anything that makes package management easier is better
03:51 <@sauvin> An RPM-based distro that uses apt-get and synaptic? Isn't that a bit like Italians eating with chopsticks?
03:51 < SporkWitch> sauvin: #thatsracist
03:52 <@sauvin> No it ain't, it's just a juxtaposition.
03:52 < jim> reasonable if they were eating chinese food :)
03:52 < SporkWitch> sauvin: you're assuming italians don't use chopsticks because they're italian :)
03:52 <@sauvin> Then call me unreasonable. I have been known to eat ravioli, spaghetti and suchlike with sticks. :D
03:53 < pnbeast> Do they all have one chopstick, with one extra one for the table that they have to pass around?  I had this in OS class.
03:53 < SporkWitch> i use chopsticks for spaghetti; much easier than forks
03:53 <@sauvin> Yeah, that's part of the appeal.
03:54 < jim> I can't really do chopsticks
03:54 < SporkWitch> jim: just takes practice
03:54 < jim> lots and lots and lots of practice
03:54 < qkzoo1978> sveta: so webasm could one day murder javascript allowing web development in languages that actually make sense?
03:55 < SporkWitch> yay! potential for even MORE malicious remote code :P
03:55 < granttrec> qkzoo1978, pretty sure people just wrap code already
03:55 <@sauvin> And then, for additional fun, eat with chopsticks with the OTHER hand.
03:55 < notmike> sauvin: help me out blood
03:55 < qkzoo1978> chopsticks are easy.
03:55 <@sauvin> With what?
03:55 < NullTheSecond> Fixed it by doing `sudo vim /etc/default/grub` and then removing `rd.driver.blacklist=nouveau modprobe.blacklist=nouveau nvidia-drm.modeset=1`... Can't believe that I didn't see it there
03:56 < notmike> I think I'm quieted? Maybe not
03:56 < NullTheSecond> *facepalm*
03:56 <@sauvin> Not quieted that I can see.
03:56 < SporkWitch> rofl
03:56 < jml2> NullTheSecond, you can also see it by doing -> cat /proc/cmdline
03:56 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: also, sudoedit is preferred
03:56 < notmike> how come whenever I try to install Windows in parallel to Linux (Linux installed first) the device doesn't recognize the startup media and goes to grub.
03:57 <@sauvin> Because Windows arrogantly clobbers everything it its path. Install Windows first, and THEN Linux.
03:57 < notmike> Ugh, but all my stuuuuufff
03:57 < SporkWitch> NullTheSecond: especially if you have other users on the machine that you allow to use vi/vim with sudo, you don't want them using it directly but rather sudoedit, because there are ways to escalate privileges otherwise (e.g. vim can run shell commands, so if you run vim as root, you are effectively root)
03:57 < bazhang> install from backups
03:57 < notmike> True dat
03:57 < NullTheSecond> jml2: `BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-4.15.17-300.fc27.x86_64 root=/dev/mapper/fedora-root ro rd.lvm.lv=fedora/root rd.lvm.lv=fedora/swap rhgb quiet LANG=en_AU.UTF-8 rd.driver.blacklist=nouveau modprobe.blacklist=nouveau nvidia-drm.modeset=1`
03:58 < bazhang> my backups have backups
03:58 < NullTheSecond> Still there
03:58 < jim> you can work it out so you don't lose anything]
03:58 <@sauvin> There's an install-grub thingie around somewhere, I think, but I've never used it. Also not sure how that crap works now that there's a lot more "words" involved (UEFI, SecureBoot, etc).
03:58 < SporkWitch> ALWAYS install windows first; MSFT goes out of its way to break things when it installs (and has even been known to mess with the MBR during patches from time to time)
03:58 < SporkWitch> (or better: don't install windows)
03:58  * sauvin keeps his Windows safely tucked away in VBox VMs
03:59 < jml2> NullTheSecond, I hate the way rh/fedora forces one to use a separate boot partition :)..
03:59 < diogenese> windows in a box
03:59 <@sauvin> "forces"?
03:59 < jml2> NullTheSecond, btw i didnt say that -- i mentioned to see it by doing -> cat /proc/cmdline
03:59 < Dan39> jml2: what? no they dont
03:59 < prussian> the installer last i tried will force a /boot and a /boot/EFI hierarchy on UEFI systems
03:59 < prussian> it's really annoying.
04:00 < notmike> UEFI makes everything more tedious on my end
04:00 < jml2> prussian, for mbr it does, not so sure about uefi...
04:00 < Dan39> oh hmmm, both? or just forces the efi partition? which is of course required...
04:00 < NullTheSecond> jml2: When I ran `cat /proc/cmdline` I got `BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-4.15.17-300.fc27.x86_64 root=/dev/mapper/fedora-root ro rd.lvm.lv=fedora/root rd.lvm.lv=fedora/swap rhgb quiet LANG=en_AU.UTF-8 rd.driver.blacklist=nouveau modprobe.blacklist=nouveau nvidia-drm.modeset=1`
04:00 < SporkWitch> totally forgot i was going to have to deal with that on my next build... this laptop is the first UEFI machine i've had, and i don't plan to risk breaking anything on it until i have a desktop again just in case...
04:00 < Dan39> for bios it definitely doesnt require a boot partition
04:00 < NullTheSecond> I've got past the issue of low resolution, though
04:00 < SporkWitch> not looking forward to fighting with UEFI >_<
04:00 < jml2> NullTheSecond, ah ok.. it does have BOOT_IMAGE at the front..
04:01 < Dan39> maybe if you use automatic partitioning it does, but just choose manual partitioning
04:01 < qkzoo1978> Someone want to give me 1700 bucks so I can build a new PC the way I like it?
04:01 < SporkWitch> qkzoo1978: sure, give me 2300 first, so i can do the same
04:01 < qkzoo1978> You think a gofundme page would work for that?
04:01 < jml2> NullTheSecond, when diagnosing things on boot you can also remove "quiet" from a grub prompt
04:01 < m`r_white^rabbit> this uefi was a bad idea from the start
04:02 < jim> what happens if you get a new drive, make an efi partition on it, and copy the files in the efi partition to the new drive's efi partition?
04:02 < qkzoo1978> sporkwitch checks in the mail.
04:02 < m`r_white^rabbit> has anyone tried linuxboot
04:02 < bazhang> whats linuxboot
04:02 < jim> if you also copy the other partitions, can you consider the new drive a replacement?
04:02 < m`r_white^rabbit> "LinuxBoot is a firmware for modern servers that replaces specific firmware functionality like the UEFI DXE phase with a Linux kernel and runtime"
04:03 < m`r_white^rabbit> https://linuxboot.org/
04:03 < qkzoo1978> Anyone played with Kali? I was thinking about doing a little penetration testing on my own network to brush up on security.
04:03 < bazhang> no
04:03 < SporkWitch> qkzoo1978: it's an excellent tool for its purpose; it is not a workstation or server distro
04:03 < bazhang> qkzoo1978, they have a channel here on freenode if you are interested
04:03 < jml2> jim, I made a fix for that, but here I  use a rescue-boot from a usb-installer  (clone a vm guest to a native physical partition)
04:04 < m`r_white^rabbit> linuxboot + linunx = booting from power on to linux console in a matter of 1 or 2 seconds potentially
04:04 < m`r_white^rabbit> *linux
04:04 < triceratux> theres nothing wrong with kali that replacing everything but the wallpaper with parrotsec doesnt fix https://www.linux.com/learn/security/parrot-security-could-be-your-next-security-tool
04:04 < qkzoo1978> Thinkin about it, was reading up on a couple tools that come with it, but I think I need a new network card that can listen idle or seomthing like that.
04:05  * sauvin discovers erlang has HASHES!
04:06 < SporkWitch> sauvin: gonna smoke 'em up?
04:06 < dannylee> i smoke that before
04:07 <@sauvin> dannylee, didn't you say something about having left your bong at your friend's place that's, like, four hours' drive one-way?
04:07 <@sauvin> Go get it back!
04:07 < dannylee> ok that might be true
04:07 < qkzoo1978> apt-get install unrar: apt-get:unrar is already the newest version (1:5.3.2-1) - huh, when did I do that.
04:07 < SporkWitch> damn, you know you've got a problem when you're a stoner and you forget your kit
04:08 < dannylee> i really love my dell 960 opiplex
04:08 < qkzoo1978> dannylee those are workstations aren't they?
04:08 < dannylee> its really pretty fast for and old machine
04:09 < qkzoo1978> I tend to be the last owner for everyone elses old computers.
04:09 < qkzoo1978> Kinda like my cars.
04:11 < m`r_white^rabbit> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Google-NERF-UEFI-Linux
04:11 < m`r_white^rabbit> NERF
04:12 < m`r_white^rabbit> "NERF is short for the Non-Extensible Reduced Firmware and is their effort to replace most of the UEFI firmware with a small Linux kernel and initramfs while their custom portions of the code are written in the Go programming language. "
04:12 < jml2> m`r_white^rabbit, that's because of "minix" inside intel's management engine
04:12 < m`r_white^rabbit> it's not just that jml2
04:12 < jml2> old news too.
04:12 < jml2> that's 2017
04:12 < m`r_white^rabbit> no, this is an ongoing project, now in the form of Linuxboot too, to slice out UEFI
04:13 < dannylee> fedora 27 workstation and the other is LXDE
04:13 < jml2> m`r_white^rabbit, you probably haven't heard that MS just released its first Linux distro XD
04:13 < jml2> lol
04:13 < m`r_white^rabbit> I don't care about macroshit
04:14 < dell00> Why are GCC versions fragmented?
04:15 < jim> fragmented how?
04:15 < dannylee> it should be compiled
04:15 < SporkWitch> m`r_white^rabbit: https://itsfoss.com/microsoft-announces-linux-os/
04:15 < jml2> m`r_white^rabbit, MS is as irrelevant to a 2017 article that is "OLD NEWS" :)
04:15 < jml2> tehehe
04:15 < m`r_white^rabbit> i aint even clicking that SporkWitch
04:16 < SporkWitch> you're no fun
04:16 < jml2> m`r_white^rabbit, NERF! :p
04:16 < ananke> he's so much fun, just look at that nickname. full of every possible character
04:16 < m`r_white^rabbit> the article is an extension of the malware
04:16 < dell00> jim: what I mean by version fragments is that each version, such as GCC 4.x and GCC 5.x are basically their own independent projects.
04:17 < dell00> Under GNU Compiler Collection.
04:17 < SporkWitch> in what sense?
04:19 < ananke> we should have a 'linux fan starter pack'. it will include a hax0r nickname, blatant and overt disdain for anything non-linux (quadruple points for anything related to microsoft, especially if spelled as 'm$'), archlinux/kali daily driver badge, etc
04:19 < l`I^|> 何
04:20 < prussian> deep
04:20 < l`I^|> ananke, if you really need to know, m`r was a shortening of master, from an old irc username i used a decade or so ago ("master_white_rabbit")
04:20 < l`I^|> but irc here truncates that nick
04:21 < ||JD||> randomly talking shit about MS is so 1990
04:22 < ananke> ||JD||: yet some folks here wear it like a badge of honor
04:22 < ||JD||> ikr
04:22 < l`I^|> and the reason i was posting about NERF, UEFI, and linuxboot, is regarding the annoyance with UEFI someone was just talking about
04:22 < jim_chat> There's nothing random about it.  It's what we still do like clockwork.
04:22 < l`I^|> regardless, there is no need for me to justify whatever i want to talk about
04:27 < l`I^|> and actually, someone else randomly talked about macroshit
04:27 < l`I^|> i responded saying i don't care about macroshit
04:28 <@sauvin> Microsoft, not "macroshit".
04:28 < l`I^|> microshaft
04:28 <@sauvin> Microsoft, not "microshaft".
04:28 < ananke> l`I^|: you're not scoring any brownie points here by using that idiotic wannabe nomenclature
04:29 <@sauvin> Also: distro- or OS-bashing isn't encouraged.
04:29 < l`I^|> brownie points?
04:29 < ananke> ##linux is not a ghetto. you can quit pretending to be a gangster
04:29 < prussian> you sure?
04:29 < pnbeast> l`I^|, I'll give you +1 on your saving throws against ranged weapons, though.
04:29 < SporkWitch> ananke: kind of an americanism with the brownie points, heh
04:29 < nai> stop the microsoft-bashing-bashing, guys
04:29 < ananke> prussian: only on the weekends
04:30 < l`I^|> this is almost as entertaining as the "its bitcoin cash not bcash" rigmarole
04:30 < l`I^|> give it a break chaps
04:30 < l`I^|> do you also get offended when someone says bcash?
04:30 < ananke> l`I^|: you're the one who keeps insisting on that dumb slang
04:30 <@sauvin> You really want a break, l`I^| ?
04:30 < l`I^|> you want a power trip?
04:31 < SporkWitch> sauvin: i think that's a yes
04:31 <@sauvin> It's not a power trip, I promise. It's just an old fart being grumpy.
04:31 < jml2> I have a power tip for him:  /quit  XD
04:31 < jml2> for having such a "macro" mouth :))
04:31 <@sauvin> "Power" is illusory and often irrelevant.
04:31 < triceratux> both microsoft & systemd are boring compared to 127.0.0.53
04:31 < l`I^|> well that was a bit more honest
04:31 < l`I^|> triceratux, i agree
04:32 < l`I^|> but doesn't that tie in with systemd-resolved?
04:32  * sauvin wonders what erlang's designers were smoking that week
04:32 < jml2> NullTheSecond, did you fix it?
04:32 < triceratux> yeah if you can call it "tieing in"
04:33 < jml2> triceratux, cottonwooder!
04:33 < SporkWitch> triceratux: i feel like i'm missing the joke with the last octet...
04:34 < triceratux> SporkWitch: you havent seen systemd-resolved fail because even arch doesnt try to use it. the service management aspects of systemd are rote & benign by comparison
04:35 < SporkWitch> triceratux: ah, it's a systemd thing?
04:35 < SporkWitch> triceratux: could you offer additional context?
04:36 < triceratux> SporkWitch: http://pastebin.centos.org/700351/raw/
04:37 < SporkWitch> triceratux: ah lol
04:37 < SporkWitch> guess it's a good thing i don't run that alphabet soup distro lol
04:38 < triceratux> SporkWitch: i particularly liked this one but im taking a break "The systemd developers are not qualified to write either DNS software[2] or C code that talks to the network." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14652787
04:38 < l`I^|> criticisms of systemd are well founded
04:39 < triceratux> SporkWitch: ive been running extonos for several releases but this last image is more of a bugrelease than an os release. never seen anything like it ;)
04:39 < SporkWitch> some are, some aren't; this is one of the very first objective criticisms i've ever seen, it's usually just impotent rage lol
04:40 < jml2> found out about this thing called "setting environment" variables with systemctl today.  couldn't figure out where it'd store its settings other than being able to list them with "show-environment"  -- this is confusing.
04:40  * jml2 "systemctl set-environment MYSQLD_OPTS="
04:40 < prussian> it's a dbus thing
04:40 < jml2> that is such a pita to keep track of, so I instead set this env variable inside /etc/default/mysql
04:40 < prussian> your user services will be able to see them
04:41 < prussian> service/timers
04:41 < prussian> it's pretty useful as well for storing things like SSH_AUTH_SOCK when you ssh into your comp or whatever
04:41 < dannylee> my dog died last week..i was with her for 15 years...she was a Dachshund
04:42 < jml2> triceratux, you ever work with 'em set environment variables? lol
04:43 < triceratux> jml2: not in systemd i havent. i treat it as a monolothic whole that i expect experts have configured correctly. very rarely have a bug to shoot that forces me to dig into it
04:44 < triceratux> *monolithic
04:45 < l`I^|> what just happened?
04:45 < jml2> triceratux, the cool thing is as soon as you use set-environment it is persistent
04:46 < jml2> triceratux, it stores the env variable somewhere and it wouln't be in a text format somewhere  under /etc
04:46 < jml2> triceratux,  I can probably use it with systemctl --user, that should be interesting..
04:47 < jml2> triceratux, yeah it works here with --user ...
04:48 < jml2> prussian, i can probably make use of that, but there's already /etc/environment ...
04:49 < prussian> would be more useful if you could have systemd depend on an environment becoming defined
04:49 < jml2> prussian, (above)
04:49 < jml2> prussian, yes it can do it too with systemctl --user set-environment "A=123"
04:49 < prussian> ya
04:49 < NullTheSecond> jml2: No, it keeps on adding back the `rd.driver.blacklist=nouveau modprobe.blacklist=nouveau nvidia-drm.modeset=1`
04:49 < prussian> it's rare I use it though
04:49 < NullTheSecond> I can't find out how to force it to not blacklist it
04:50 < prussian> because mainly it's hard to depend on variables being available in a service before it starts
04:50 < jml2> prussian, nice thing is that it is avail to any script you can tailor to a systemd service file (~/.config/systemd/user )
04:50 < NullTheSecond> How can I remove rd.drive.... ? `cat /proc/cmdline -> BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-4.15.17-300.fc27.x86_64 root=/dev/mapper/fedora-root ro rd.lvm.lv=fedora/root rd.lvm.lv=fedora/swap rhgb quiet LANG=en_AU.UTF-8 rd.driver.blacklist=nouveau modprobe.blacklist=nouveau nvidia-drm.modeset=1`
04:50 < jml2> prussian, so any shell that is called from the service unit can use this environment variable
04:50 < NullTheSecond> I need it to be removed
04:51 < jml2> prussian, but /etc/environment afaik is shell agnostic as well...
04:51 < NullTheSecond> I can remove it in the grub menu when I boot and it loads fine, but if I just load normally, it unloads nouveau
04:51 < NullTheSecond> I _need_ nouveau enabled
04:51 < l`I^|> NullTheSecond, did you update grub after editing the cfg
04:52 < NullTheSecond> Yeah
04:52 < triceratux> NullTheSecond: have you looked thru /etc/default/grub ? sometimes its parked in there
04:52 < l`I^|> ^ that is where it should be
04:52 < jml2> NullTheSecond, mind me telling you, you can check your grub.cfg file before rebooting :)
04:52 < jml2> NullTheSecond, (grub.cfg is not the /etc/default/grub file  -- these are two separate files)
04:53 < jml2> NullTheSecond, after you run your mkconfig/update-grub whatever, you'll see what grub.cfg file is spewed out
04:54 < NullTheSecond> Where's grub.cfg? There's nothing blacklisting the driver in /etc/default/grub
04:55  * jml2 "man 5 environment.d"
04:56 < jml2> systemd is extending the /etc/environment things if i'm correct.. the manpage indicatees this..
04:56 < l`I^|> NullTheSecond,  usually /boot/grub
04:56 < l`I^|> not sure with your distro though
04:58 < jml2> prussian, less contradiction now that I've looked at it..
04:59 < prussian> hmm?
04:59 < jml2> "systemd-environment-d-generator is a systemd.environment-generator(7) that reads environment configuration specified by environment.d(7) configuration files and passes it to the systemd(1) user manager instance."
04:59 < jml2> from the man systemd-environment-d-generator
05:00 < jml2> legacy /etc/environment things can still be used and systemd would recognize it..
05:02 < prussian> ya
05:02 < jml2> ,/usr/lib/systemd/user-environment-generators/30-systemd-environment-d-generator   -- here needs to be called and I can see things I set in /etc/environment or ~/.config/<environment.d>
05:02 < prussian> generators are common for working with the ancient ways.
05:03 < NullTheSecond> l`I^|: Nothing in grub.cfg
05:03 < NullTheSecond> `sudo cat /boot/grub2/grub.cfg | grep "nouveau"` returns nothing
05:04 < jml2> NullTheSecond, is your system efi?
05:04 < srgj931> I want to make 'export QT_AUTO_SCREEN_SCALE_FACTOR=0' command persistent, in which file do I need to put it in?
05:06 < NullTheSecond> BIOS, not UEFI
05:07 < jml2> NullTheSecond, ok then that is the correct path, if you reboot, doing "cat /proc/cmdline" should show up properly this time
05:08 < nai> srgj931: .profile or .bash_profile or .xinitrc
05:09 < NullTheSecond> jml2: `BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-4.15.17-300.fc27.x86_64 root=/dev/mapper/fedora-root ro rd.lvm.lv=fedora/root rd.lvm.lv=fedora/swap rhgb quiet LANG=en_AU.UTF-8 rd.driver.blacklist=nouveau modprobe.blacklist=nouveau nvidia-drm.modeset=1`
05:10 < jml2> NullTheSecond, I guess I have to say that the .efi app being called is from another drive elsewhere lol
05:10 < jml2> NullTheSecond, you sure you dont have another distro on there?
05:10 < NullTheSecond> I dual boot Fedora 27 and Windows 10 - that's it
05:11 < nai> guys, what are your reactions regarding that "Microsoft Linux distribution" thing? to me it just seems like they're forcing their way into the free software world to make profit out of it, which seems absolutely disgusting
05:12  * l`I^| ignores
05:12 < jml2> nai, I'm already using it
05:12 < l`I^|> it's like, mcdonalds releasing a vegan burger
05:12 < jml2> nai, I'm now 100% Microsoft/Linux
05:13 < jml2> nai, btw not disgusting
05:13 < l`I^|> a vegan should not eat at mcdonalds
05:13 < jml2> nai, embrace the love and freedom baby
05:14 < l`I^|> even if they have a vegan burger
05:14 < jml2> nai, l`I^  has no name
05:14 < nai> l`I^|: that sums it up perfectly imo
05:14 < jml2> nai, he jealous of macro goodness :)
05:15 < NullTheSecond> I edited sudo vim /etc/default/grub to remove it and did sudo grub2-mkconfig -o /boot/grub2/grub.cfg, then rebooted, but I still get it
05:15 < nai> jml2: i can't tell what parts of what you say are sarcasm
05:15 < l`I^|> https://youtu.be/Vhh_GeBPOhs
05:15 < jml2> nai, funny thing is MS rarely ever mentions the word "Linux" on their up-front pages about it
05:16 < jml2> l`I^|>, actually Ballmer didn't like Linux and called it a cancer. Bet you never heard that :)
05:17 < l`I^|> i knew that
05:17 < jml2> l`I^|>, https://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_cancer/  :)
05:17 < jml2> l`I^|>, sure you did :)
05:17 < pnbeast> I think a guy named Alchin said Linux was communism, too.
05:17 < l`I^|> yes i am sure
05:17 < _stuart> nai: I don't buy salad at McDonalds... so probably wouldn't download linux from Microsoft...
05:18 < jml2> l`I^|>, you're new to the scene. apparently :)
05:18 < nai> Linux is more like trotskysm tbh
05:18 < nai> free software is communism
05:18 < nai> _stuart: same.
05:19 < l`I^|> jml2, i stay away from scenes
05:19 < jml2> nai, if you look far enough "ext2/3/4" are mentioned on an MS developer technical sheet, ... for quite a few years already.  wouldn't be surprised MS has a native linux filesystem.
05:20 < nai> i was fearing a bit earlier that bashing microsoft had become an unpopular opinion on this channel, guess it was just a temporary thing :^)
05:20 < nai> jml2: what point are you trying to make? that microsoft cares about linux? yeah, i think that's pretty clear
05:21 < l`I^|> jml2, i have been using linux for a decade, and before that dabbled with it as a teen in the form of red hat (not rhel) with the redneck language during installation
05:21 < jml2> nai, it's not surprising they came out with what you mentioned
05:21 < l`I^|> just because i have not been on freenode #linux, don't assume i am new to linux
05:21 < jml2> nai, it's not news I would say.. I think many would know they were already working on it
05:21 < stevendale> o/
05:21 < stevendale> Hey all
05:21 < jml2> nai, after-all novell+microsoft partnering goes back to 2006.
05:22 < nai> when did i say it was surprising?
05:22 < jml2> nai, still that would be the biggest news for "users" because many would like to see a native ext2/3/4 support on windows.
05:22 < l`I^|> hey stevendale
05:22 < jml2> nai, here it wouldn't be for me, but for those wanting to make the migration it would definitely help imho.
05:23 < Psi-Jack> triceratux: Was it you that recommended me to use bcache or someone else? ;)
05:23 < jml2> nai, i'm betting as soon as MS releases it, it would make big news. I highly doubt they would, even though I can be pretty sure they have something.
05:24  * jml2 ( https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh830604(v=vs.85).aspx ) << mentions ext3 
05:26 < Psi-Jack> Hmmm... Blast. Seems my searching fails me. LOL
05:29 < stevendale> I wonder if they'll release an ext4 driver for Windows 7 jml2 :P
05:29  * stevendale keeps dreaming :P 
05:30  * l`I^| echo "127.0.0.1 microsoft.com" >> /etc/hosts
05:30 < Psi-Jack> I hope not. :)
05:30 < nai> can someone sum up in a concise way the main problems with systemd?
05:31 < stevendale> nai: It is stoopid. That's all there is to it
05:31 < oiaohm> jml2: Note no ext4  Its only been in use since 2006-2008
05:31 < stevendale> init or bust
05:31 < l`I^|> https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/
05:31 < NullTheSecond> Fixed the issue with `sudo grubby --remove-args='rd.driver.blacklist=nouveau modprobe.blacklist=nouveau nvidia-drm.modeset=1' --update-kernel=ALL`
05:31 < jim> !! if I do that, can I be microsoft?!
05:31 < nai> l`I^|: thanks
05:31 < Psi-Jack> jim: If you want a lot of people hating you. ;)
05:31 < nai> stevendale: that's a bit too concise maybe?
05:31 < notmike> I call slackware
05:31 < l`I^|> nai, np
05:32 < nai> are the arch dev folks aware of these problems? are they doing anything about it?
05:32 < dogbert2> welp, time for bed...need to be at werk in about 7.5 hours
05:33 < SporkWitch> dogbert2: slacker, you don't need more than 3 hours
05:33 < jml2> nai, there is no problems with systemd, only idiots who are not smart enough on how to use it
05:33  * dogbert2 drops an anvil on SporkWitch 
05:33 < l`I^|> nai more reading here http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd
05:33 < nai> jml2: i'm /ignoring you, sorry
05:33  * SporkWitch splits the anvil in two with his amazing sporkosity
05:34 < l`I^|> > " there is no problems with systemd"
05:34 < jml2> nai, well good ignore me. nobody is interested of arguments on using "systemd" that's 5 years way past due.
05:34 < jml2> lol
05:34 < oiaohm> nai: really there were a lot of issues with the old sysvinit system and all the distributions hacks around it.
05:34 < stevendale> OS: 64 bit Windows 7 Ultimate (Version 6.1 Build 7601) Service Pack 1, CPU: 4 x Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3340M CPU @ 2.70GHz @ 2691 MHz 512 KB Cache, MEM: 3997 MB, 70% (2730 MB) free, DISKS: total 297 GB - 229 GB free, GFX: Intel(R) HD Graphics 4000 1760 MB, SCREEN: Generic PnP Monitor, 1366 x 768 @ 32 bit, 60 Hz, AUDIO: IDT High Definition Audio CODEC, UPTIME: 0 d, 16 h, 29 m
05:34 < nai> l`I^|: thanks again
05:34 < stevendale> Look at my amazing system o/
05:34 < jml2> l`I^| and nai are cousins
05:34 < oiaohm> nai: Its like all things fixing one set of problems creates a new set.
05:34 < nai> oiaohm: i've heard bad things about sysvinit
05:34 < SporkWitch> stevendale: you seem to have malware on it
05:34 < pnbeast> Cool!  What bad things?  What bad things??
05:34 < luke-jr> jml2: I have one system with systemd not by choice, and it runs dog slow out of the box
05:35 < stevendale> SporkWitch: I wouldn't know, I have no AV :x
05:35 < SporkWitch> stevendale: it's in the info you pasted
05:35 < pnbeast> It "runs slow" because it's not systemd?!
05:35 < luke-jr> nai: sysvinit isn't the only other option
05:35  * pnbeast waits to hear the logic.
05:35 < stevendale> SporkWitch Oh xD
05:35 < luke-jr> pnbeast: it runs slow because it is systemd
05:35 < pnbeast> Oh, sorry - I got you backwards.
05:35 < nai> i know there's runit, is that a viable alternative?
05:35 < jim> there's that windows virus... redirects money at microsoft
05:35 < SporkWitch> stevendale: now you get it :P
05:35 < jml2> i think anyone who wants to bring up the "systemd argument" should be banned. that is so old and tiring.
05:35 < jml2> ^
05:35 < notmike> luke-jr: wow, you're still alive?
05:35 < jml2> lol
05:35 < nai> i know Void Linux uses runit
05:36 < Psi-Jack> jml2: I definitely agree with that.
05:36 < luke-jr> nai: I prefer OpenRC myself
05:36 < oiaohm> nai: that is the problem.
05:36 < pnbeast> That said, my systemd machines are not noticeably slower, either.  I haven't tried timing them, in part because there are too many confoundind variables.
05:36 < stevendale> I used to run Linux.. gave up stuffing around getting things to work in Wine, switched to Windows 7 and now there's almost no effort involved...
05:36 < stevendale> Double click a desktop lnk... it opens..
05:36 < oiaohm> nai: you look closer at runit and you will find it has issues due to being made too platform netural so not using the features the OS kernel provides.
05:36 < luke-jr> pnbeast: well, the system in question in my case, does basically nothing other than boot and listen for me to press the power button to start the real machine
05:36 < notmike> stevendale: try ##windows
05:37 < luke-jr> pnbeast: so when I plug in my PC, I have to wait a few minutes before my power button works
05:37 < pnbeast> :D  I can't imagine it's too slow to catch a human pressing a button!
05:37 < Psi-Jack> jim: jml2 makes a valid point. "systemd" has become a major advocacy issue.
05:37 < SporkWitch> stevendale: most things pretty much just work in wine these days, especially with a nice frontend like playonlinux; using vms is also viable, even for gaming, thanks to features like pci pass-through.  Not to mention that an ever increasing number of things have native linux support, often even with same-day release
05:37 < Styil> hello, I am wondering how I can make it so my raspberry pi automatically mounts a usb drive
05:37 < luke-jr> pnbeast: well, I'm sure the boot is doing other stuff too
05:37 < Styil> when plugged in
05:37 < luke-jr> Styil: add it to fstab?
05:38 < luke-jr> oh, at runtime
05:38 < notmike> luke-jr: how does it boot twice?
05:38 < prussian> udisks2
05:38 < luke-jr> notmike: ?
05:38 < luke-jr> notmike: the BMC (running systemd) boots, then I press the power button, then the real system (running Gentoo) starts booting
05:38 < notmike> You said it boots, then waits for you to press the button, then boots
05:38 < notmike> oooh
05:39 < stevendale> SporkWitch: I've only got 4 GB RAM and a HDD... VMs or Wine performance is terrible.... I *could* stick to native Steam games, but even then, the system requirements are significantly higher on Linux than on Windows (apparently... Not sure if it's true)
05:39 < luke-jr> I think my bootloader on the real system might use systemd too, actually
05:39 < notmike> What's the advantage of a BMC?
05:39 < stevendale> (Most games say they require a more powerful GPU to run on Linux than on Windows)
05:39 < nai> oiaohm: which init systemd would you recommend?
05:39 < SporkWitch> stevendale: it's not true; it's usually the opposite, with many things running better
05:39 < luke-jr> notmike: I'm not entirely sure. Might just be necessary for 100% free software firmware?
05:39 < jim> Psi-Jack, jml2, I generally don't ban folks unless there's a damn good reason to do so... I'm not bad at slowing down advocacy
05:39 < luke-jr> notmike: there's some nice features, like remote serial access
05:40 < stevendale> SporkWitch: So it's just devs being ignorant of the fact Linux is taking over? o/
05:40 < SporkWitch> stevendale: that's probably a precaution against ATI's terrible drivers and people that insist on using nouveau; nvidia binary drivers are just shy of their PC counterparts, and honestly, most games don't really push things these days
05:40 < Psi-Jack> jim: What I'm suggesting is maybe some rule-page specific updates, minor inclusion of the "Avoid advocacy debates" to include systemd vs * might be useful.
05:40 < SporkWitch> s/PC/windows
05:40 < Psi-Jack> Clarify it directly basically.
05:40  * stevendale uses Intel HD Graphics 4000 
05:40 < luke-jr> notmike: it's nice to be able to update the main system's firmware flash from the BMC too
05:41 < nai> oiaohm: i meant system* ...
05:41 < SporkWitch> stevendale: intel's linux drivers are actually excellent
05:41 < SporkWitch> stevendale: that said, you won't be doing much of any gaming with that anyway lol
05:41 < jim> stevendale: also, I notice you're commenting on windows/microsoft... I have a question: have you installed linux? if no, do you want to, and can we help?
05:41 < luke-jr> stevendale: wish I could get than on PCI-e
05:41 < notmike> That's kinda cool. I have two Cisco 2000 series routers with some serial ports in my trunk. Can't really find an application for them xD
05:41 < luke-jr> get that on*
05:41 < notmike> I don't really have a use for serial that I can think of.
05:42 < luke-jr> notmike: well, the BMC's remote serial port connects to the host system ofc
05:42 < luke-jr> notmike: so if I wrote a stupid firewall rule, I could get in that way
05:42 < Psi-Jack> luke-jr: "of course" not "ofc" for future self corrections, please.
05:43 < luke-jr> why?
05:43 < notmike> Psi-Jack suffers from an aggressive form of autism
05:43 < Psi-Jack> luke-jr: Because this is an English channel, and we'd like our non-native English folk to better understand everything. It's in the rules as such to not use sms-speak (aka shorthand, aka shtspk)
05:43 < SporkWitch> luke-jr: channel policy, proper english only, no "text-speak"
05:44 < Psi-Jack> jim: I'll let you deal with notmike...
05:44 < jim> Psi-Jack, I already consider systemd included in the advocacy debate category
05:44 < notmike> systemd gets a bad wrap
05:44 < SporkWitch> let's go with a less loaded topic: blondes, brunettes, or redheads
05:45 < SporkWitch> i'm partial to redheads
05:45 < jim> notmike, come on, don't ruffle psi's feathers
05:45 < luke-jr> I'm married to a redhead
05:45 < notmike> ok, I'm very sorry :(
05:45 < SporkWitch> luke-jr: does she need company?
05:45 < luke-jr> no
05:45 < SporkWitch> luke-jr: are you sure?
05:45 < notmike> doubt it. luke-jr has like 46 kids
05:45 < SporkWitch> mormon?
05:45 < luke-jr> lol
05:45 < SporkWitch> lol
05:45 < luke-jr> Catholic
05:45 < jim> notmike, just be cocl and we will
05:45 < luke-jr> and only 6 so far
05:46 < l`I^|> https://pgl.yoyo.org/adservers/serverlist.php?hostformat=hosts this is so handy
05:46 < SporkWitch> was gonna say, 46 would be hard for someone not mormon
05:46 < notmike> you blessed! :D
05:46 < jim> 6 is huge
05:46 < luke-jr> jim: many of my friends have more
05:46 < Psi-Jack> jim: Thank you. Efficiently handled. :)
05:46 < jim> I don't envy them
05:46 < notmike> I ain't got time for having no kids. Married to the money.
05:47 < luke-jr> oops, sorry, I said "lol" instead of /me laughs.
05:47 < SporkWitch> i think the logs clearly show it was i that handled this one
05:47 < jim> Psi-Jack, welcome
05:47 < stevendale> o/
05:47 < jim> luke-jr, I think it's python that doesn't like lols
05:47 < stevendale> Lubuntu 17.10.1 looks nice
05:48 < SporkWitch> jim: that is correct
05:48 < stevendale> Will Lubuntu run well on a Core 2 Duo with 4 GB DDR2 and an Intel GMA 4500 MHD, SporkWitch?
05:48 < luke-jr> ancient :o
05:48 < SporkWitch> stevendale: better than windows, that's for sure; you'll want to trun off some of the eye candy, though, obviously
05:49 < stevendale> I mean, it plays a couple of Steam games like FTL & World of Goo
05:49 < wadadli> does anyone know of an app that with google hangouts, google voice, and whatsapp messenges integration?
05:49 < stevendale> On Windows
05:49 < wadadli> I was thinking Pidgin but not sure if it supports whatsapp messenger.
05:49 < jim> having said that, lol -is- one of those abbreviations... having said -that-, I think most people understand it
05:49 < Styil> so, is there anyway to have a USB drive mount upon being plugged in at runtime automatically? It runs exFAT if that is an issue.
05:49 < SporkWitch> stevendale: my plex server is running on a 2011 vaio with 4GB of RAM and a turion64; manages diablo 3 at okay settings (though not as well as it used to; the jerks dropped opengl support in diablo 3)
05:50 < stevendale> :(
05:50 < stevendale> They're also dropping DirectX9 SporkWitch
05:50 < Psi-Jack> SporkWitch: Hmmm. My Plex server is running on a VM with 4 cores and only 2GB RAM.
05:50 < SporkWitch> Styil: "plugged in at runtime" huh?  do you want something mounted when you run something else, or do you want it to mount when it's plugged in? or do you mean you want it to mount when you boot it up?
05:50 < l`I^|> that is ironically evil
05:50 < stevendale> Luckily wine just got DirectX 10 & 11 SporkWitch
05:50 < notmike> Does Gentoo have to be built up from scratch like Arch?
05:50 < luke-jr> notmike: more than Arch most likely
05:50 < Styil> SporkWitch: I want it to mount essentially any time it is connected
05:50 < SporkWitch> stevendale: it's still an abstraction layer rather than native, so it does have a performance impact
05:51 < Psi-Jack> notmike: You don't "build" Arch. Arch has binary packages. Gentoo doesn't.
05:51 < SporkWitch> Styil: you need to use udev, then
05:51 < luke-jr> for my new PC, I had to cross-compile a hacky "stage1" even
05:51 < jim> notmike, gentoo does compile everything when you install it
05:51 < SporkWitch> Styil: though your DE may have settings that will handle automount for you
05:51 < Styil> on boot if the drive is already connected during boot, on being plugged in if I plug it in
05:51 < notmike> Psi-Jack: have you ever built arch? Sure didn't seem like a binary install last time I visted
05:51 < Psi-Jack> notmike: I run Arch Linux today.
05:52 < SporkWitch> notmike: arch is binary, gentoo is source
05:52 < Psi-Jack> Arch officially is binary packages.
05:52 < Psi-Jack> AUR is not binary, Arch is.
05:52 < Styil> SporkWitch: I am unfamiliar with udev, how exactly would I go about using it if you dont mind me asking?
05:52 < jim> what's the difference between AUR and arch, other than that?
05:53 < Psi-Jack> jim: AUR is not officially supported, and is maintained by users.
05:53 < Psi-Jack> And built by people whom want to use what's in AUR
05:54 < Sveta> jim, AUR is an awesome way to decentralise development in a way, it has some packages like emacs-git which are synced with the latest master of the relevant program git repository :3
05:54 < notmike> Psi-Jack: I'm not sure I follow. How is arch binary? because you use pacstrap?
05:54 < luke-jr> is Arch built from AUR?
05:54 < Sveta> no
05:54 < Psi-Jack> notmike: Because you don't compile everything.
05:54 < notmike> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide#Installation
05:54 < SporkWitch> Styil: check the manpage, but you can also find many guides on how to set up udev rules for usb devices.  For example, I use one to lock my computer when i remove my yubikey
05:54 < jim> Styil, udev normally installs with most dists, if you have hardware that udev doesn't know about, you might have to write udev rules
05:54 < Psi-Jack> luke-jr: No, Arch is built from ABS (or whatever they call it these days, ABS standing for Arch Build System, which is what Arch's actual official maintainers use to build binary packages they distribute)
05:55 < Psi-Jack> notmike: The installation is manual. The packages are binary.
05:55 < notmike> I see.
05:55 < jim> Psi-Jack, Sveta, thanks :)
05:55 < stevendale> o/
05:55 < Psi-Jack> notmike: In gentoo, the installation is manual, the packages are compiled from source code.
05:55 < SporkWitch> jim: the downside iwth the AUR is it's on those people to maintain things properly, and if someone screws up a key, you can't update your program easily.  Happens almost every time there's a patch for Discord, and you can't use it until you manually dig through all the deps and manualy fix the broken keys so it'll all update
05:55 < stevendale> What filesystem should I use for my old 7200 RPM 320 GB 2.5" SATA HDD
05:56 < notmike> ext4
05:56 < jim> or ext4 in an LVM system
05:57 < l`I^|> use `noatime` mount option to speed it up a little
05:57 < stevendale> nodiratime as well?
05:57 < prussian>  or relatime honestly
05:57 < l`I^|> no, noatime implies nodiratime
05:57 < prussian> which should be default I imagine
05:57 < l`I^|> you only need noatime
05:58 < jim> stevendale, if you don't see yourself adding storage to your partitions, maybe you shouldn't use LVM, it takes some getting used to
05:59 < Aph3x-WL> SporkWitch: the discord snap solves that issue ;)
05:59 < stevendale> Laptop, only one hard drive slot o/
05:59 < SporkWitch> Aph3x-WL: when was that released?  The last i was messing around on arch was about 10 months ago
06:00 < SporkWitch> Aph3x-WL: also, discord was just an example of one that ran into that issue on a regular basis; it's an issue innate to the nature of the AUR
06:00 < l`I^|> while we are on the subject, what are people's experiences with different filesystems on NVMe SSDs?
06:00 < l`I^|> JFS is fast as heck
06:00 < l`I^|> but has some downsides
06:00 < Psi-Jack> Like, corruption? heh
06:01 < Sveta> jim: you're welcome :)
06:01 < l`I^|> no corruption so far, but i think it can wait until the last minute before flushing/syncing data
06:01 < Psi-Jack> I prefer xfs over jfs myself, and xfs definitely over ext4.
06:02 < Aph3x-WL> SporkWitch: i believe it was some time last year that it was released
06:02 < l`I^|> Psi-Jack, have you tried F2FS?
06:02 < Psi-Jack> I have not.
06:03 < l`I^|> i think the only reason i have not tried it on a / partition is due to the option not being in the installer
06:03 < l`I^|> lazy i guess
06:03 < Psi-Jack> I had the choice with Arch, obviously. :)
06:03 < l`I^|> aye
06:05 < Psi-Jack> I chose not to, because I see no benefits of it. But, I might try it out on my spare SSD to see how it performs.
06:06 < l`I^|> yeah i mounted one formatted as F2FS, done some dd read and write benchmarking, JFS seemed faster in a lot of cases
06:07 < l`I^|> maybe i need to experiment more
06:07 < Psi-Jack> It's not just about speed, but reliability, and how it works internally.
06:07 < l`I^|> not used it in production for / or anything else yet though
06:08 < Psi-Jack> JFS, for example, like other journalling filesystems, xfs and ext3/4, designates a specific area in the middle of each filesystem to act as journal space, static.
06:08 < l`I^|> indeed, that is also a factor of why i would like to maybe use it
06:08 < l`I^|> and the fact it is developed by samsung, for linux
06:09 < l`I^|> and well, my NVMe is samsung and they know their flash
06:10 < l`I^|> i did try using an external journal for JFS but encountered some issues (like not being able to boot)
06:10 < freemonad> hi.. im trying to learn about terminals and ttys etc.. can someone explain whats happening here?
06:10 < freemonad>  #cursor moves to nextline, but ls is not executed.
06:11 < freemonad> here: https://paste.linux.community/view/606126ee
06:11 < Psi-Jack> l`I^|: The Samsung part is what bothers me. :)
06:11 < Psi-Jack> The only thing I've seen Samsung actually do moderately well, however, is SSD.
06:12 < SporkWitch> freemonad: context is lacking; ls in that line should execute the ls command
06:12 < l`I^|> well Psi-Jack you probably know how flash SSDs work, a lot of it is unknown to the OS, and proprietary, data shuffling around redundant areas or whatever
06:13 < Psi-Jack> Yep. I also know the cell bursting methods they use.
06:13 < freemonad> SparkWitch: yes i want it to execute ls.. more trying to learn what is happening
06:13 < l`I^|> my logic is that Samsung know their internals best
06:13 < freemonad> if ipress enter on the terminal, presumably taht sends a "\n",
06:13 < freemonad> so why is this different?
06:13 < freemonad> is the `/dev/pts/0` doing some kind of translation? my terminal program?
06:15 < SporkWitch> freemonad: are you saying that this isn't an abstract, this is you typing "ls" and nothing happens?
06:15 < Psi-Jack> Man, borgbackup is so fast. I couldn't even renice it before it was done. heh
06:15 < freemonad> uhh.. so if i go and type ls manually into terminal 1
06:15 < freemonad> it will execute ls
06:15 < freemonad> great
06:15 < freemonad> but if i echo "ls\n" through its STDIN from terminal 2
06:16 < freemonad> it wont
06:16 < SporkWitch> yeah...
06:16 < SporkWitch> i don't get the question
06:16 < freemonad> soo.. why?
06:16 < sauvin_> freemonad, try typing more than two or three words per line, please.
06:16 < nai> SporkWitch: they are writing to terminal1's input through /dev/pts and wondering why writing "ls\n" doesn't execute the ls command
06:17 < l`I^|> Psi-Jack, borgbackup looks cool, not used it
06:17 < Sveta> what the heck is /proc/9711/fd/0 ?
06:17 < freemonad> nai: yes, exactly. thank you.
06:17 < Sveta> ooh, wait, it's the terminal 1's stdin or something
06:17 < freemonad> Sveta: that is a "file" pointing to STDIN of temrinal 1
06:17 < SporkWitch> nai: he's asking why 'echo "ls\n"' doesn't execute ls, i don't get the question
06:17 < Psi-Jack> l`I^|: It's a great backup tool.
06:17 < sauvin> Sveta: PID 9711's STDIN.
06:17 < nai> not the terminal, bash
06:18 < sauvin> nai: echo won't cause anything to execute.
06:18 < nai> it's a symbolic link to bash's STDIN file descriptor, which in this case is /dev/pts/n
06:18 < Sveta> what if you give it ls\r\n instead of ls\n
06:18 < SporkWitch> freemonad: echo sends the argument to stdout, it doesn't execute the contents of the argument
06:18 < nai> sauvin: reply to freemonad , not to me
06:18 < freemonad> SparkWitch: i am sending to stdin, not stdout
06:18 < sauvin> nai: my bad.
06:18 < nai> although i am curious too about this
06:18 < freemonad> Sveta: i tried \r\n too!
06:19 < sauvin> I don't remember anybody ever saying anything about using FDs from /proc for IPC.
06:19 < Sveta> sauvin, he is doing a printf into /proc/9711/fd/0
06:19 < Sveta> freemonad: maybe use tee?
06:19 < nai> no Sveta
06:19 < Sveta> hmm
06:19 < nai> i think the safest bet is to assume this has to do with readline
06:20 < luke-jr> I don't think you can adds the fds that way.. they're just symlinks
06:20 < luke-jr> can access* sorry
06:20 < nai> luke-jr: you can
06:20 < jml2> wadadli, there's the web interface with whatsapp, ever heard of it?
06:20 < nai> that's what the whole /proc/id/fd filesystem is for
06:21 < freemonad> Sveta: im not super familiar with tee.. itried somethinglike  ` printf "ls\r\n" > ./0 | tee ` but thats not it
06:21 < jml2> wadadli, ( https://web.whatsapp.com ) -- offtopic for me, but i know I was looking for this at one point
06:21 < SporkWitch> jml2: facebook spyware
06:21 < nai> freemonad: nevermind that, 'tee' won't change anything here
06:21 < jml2> wadadli, you have to point your phone to your screen to login
06:21 < sauvin> I just tried something similar. It echos the 'ls' with no trouble, but it won't execute the 'ls'.
06:21 < jml2> SporkWitch, whatsapp has gotten high reviews from the fsf foundation
06:22 < SporkWitch> jml2: pre- or post-facebook? O.o
06:22 < SporkWitch> jml2: you'll understand my skepticism
06:22 < jml2> SporkWitch, take it to the fsf.org :)
06:22 < freemonad> from what I haev read, `/dev/pts/0` is not exactly a file, it would need to conect to keyboard, so i am thinking that interprets my keyboard input differently?
06:22 < nai> "readline" probably binds presses of the Enter key to an internal function and not simply "insert \n"
06:23 < SporkWitch> freemonad: i guess the real question is what are you actually trying to understand here? how shells parse commands?
06:23 < nai> freemonad: it's a character device used to talk to the virtual terminal 0
06:23 < l`I^|> the Android phone i previously had, like others, have facebook installed in such a way (onto system partition), that it cannot be uninstalled, only "disabled", and there are also "facebook" system services etc
06:23 < nai> SporkWitch: probably how ttys and /dev/pts work
06:24 < l`I^|> the new Android phone i have now is rooted with LOS and no facebook
06:24 < l`I^|> but whatsapp detects a custom ROM
06:24 < l`I^|> even with Magisk hide
06:24 < freemonad> Sparkwitch: yeah i guess nothing super specific, just exploring
06:24 < freemonad> linux is freaky
06:25 < freemonad> nai: thanks ill look at readline
06:25 < Sveta> jml2: is the web page for whatsapp a new feature?
06:25 < sauvin> Nothing wrong with exploring. :D
06:25 < nai> freemonad: i found this https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/39145/execute-command-in-remote-active-terminal , not too helpful i fear
06:25 < Sveta> jml2, i'd not mind trying it out on my desktop, i don't really have a mobile smart phone
06:26 < l`I^|> Sveta you need a phone to use it, and to scan a QR code
06:26 < Psi-Jack> Whaaaaat? No mobile smart phone?
06:26 < jml2> Sveta, lol
06:26 < Psi-Jack> Yeah, Whatsapp is tied to mobile phone usage for sure.
06:26 < jml2> Sveta, in order to login via the web interface you need to point your phone on your computer screen and the web login goes on itself automagically
06:26 < sauvin> There's actually a person under the age of 50 who doesn't have a smart phone?
06:26 < Sveta> jml2: ok
06:26 < lonelyquilava> Hey
06:26 < jml2> Sveta, you have to select a "web" option on your phone...  there is not username/password login on the web interface
06:27 < jml2> Sveta, (it uses a QR code for the phone)
06:27 < l`I^|> hey lonelyquilava
06:27 < freemonad> nai: looks great actually. found this! - https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/4126/what-is-the-exact-difference-between-a-terminal-a-shell-a-tty-and-a-con
06:27 < SporkWitch> freemonad: possibly of relevance: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/79334/how-does-a-linux-terminal-work#79351
06:27 < notmike> When Linux fed up, there ain't nothing you can do about it
06:27 < jml2> wadadli was asking about using pidgin(for whatsapp)
06:28 < nai> i now have 12 browser tabs open, and all my 9 virtual desktops are occupied. be right back, gonna kill myself.
06:28 < SporkWitch> sauvin: in my defense, i fought getting a smart phone until my palm pilot broke and they wanted the same price as it was new 5 years earlier; finally broke down and bought one of the vile all-in-one devices that are actually worse than flip-phone+pda
06:29 < sauvin> My smart phone is an epiphany to somebody who can't hear. Texting is a breeze, email anywhere I happen to be, etc.
06:30 < luke-jr> nai: get over it. I have 20 virtual desktops
06:30 < sauvin> It's also my agenda, alarm clock, GPS, camera and a few other odds and ends.
06:30 < luke-jr> and far more than 12 tabs..
06:30 < sauvin> Oh... and it's an HP48G!
06:30 < SporkWitch> my annoyance is that by having it all in one device, there's no good way to look things up or take notes while on a voice call; when i had a flip phone and a PDA, i could
06:30 < nai> luke-jr: this is actually terrible
06:30 < sauvin> SporkWitch, nothing in this life is ever perfect.
06:30 < luke-jr> probably close to 200 browser tabs
06:30 < nai> luke-jr: w-what?
06:31 < nai> i mean, how long have they been there
06:31 < Styil> who needs ram anyways?
06:31 < nai> do you basically use tabs instead of bookmarks?
06:31 < SporkWitch> (not to mention that palm's grafiti language is AMAZING; they have it on android, but finding a conductive stylus that glides smoothly on the screen, let alone has a sufficiently fine tip, is almost impossible)
06:31 < luke-jr> nai: a long long time
06:31 < luke-jr> nai: yes
06:31 < nai> why clutter your ram instead of your hard drive
06:31 < SporkWitch> (and the further annoyance of not having a slot on the device itself to slide the stylus in)
06:31 < nai> are they lazy-loaded?
06:31 < luke-jr> bad habit
06:31 < luke-jr> yes, that too
06:32 < nai> man, can you even search through them?
06:32 < luke-jr> not easily
06:32 < l`I^|> does anyone here have a Sony Android and if so, the "Whats New" vendor spyware?
06:32 < nai> aren't the tabs like 5px wide?
06:32 < luke-jr> just the main tab of each window
06:32 < luke-jr> no, I have many windows, each with maybe 5-10 tabs
06:32 < nai> do yourself a favor, cycle through these tabs and put them in your bookmarks
06:32 < nai> ...oh god
06:32 < freemonad> luke-jr: get one of those browser extensions for "tree" style tabs
06:32 < freemonad> they are awesome
06:32 < SporkWitch> nai: you can sleep individual tabs so that aren't wasting resources (not as good in firefox, though chrome has the AMAZING "great suspender" plugin).  tabs are nice because they allow for a "keep this temporarily" that doesn't require maintenance.  using bookmarks for something you simply mean to read one time at a later time tends to result in LOTS of clutter that never gets cleaned out
06:33 < luke-jr> need separate windows to put them on different virtual desktops
06:33 < nai> you know what's awesome? "tree"-style bookmarks
06:33 < nai> aka. folders
06:33 < l`I^|> the new firefox is awesome, i much prefer it over chromium now for speed and security
06:33 < SporkWitch> also awesome: tree-style tabs, the main thing keeping firefox as my daily driver
06:33 < freemonad> nai: yeah this can save a tree to a folder, but you can also collapse trees etc. while browsing
06:34 < SporkWitch> (there are zero remotely viable tree-style tab options for chrome/chromium/vivaldi)
06:34 < luke-jr> I probably should, considering my recent GPU crashes due to memory allocation issues
06:34 < nai> alright, who am i to judge, do as you will
06:34  * luke-jr still hasn't figured out why his GPU is only being allowed a 32-bit DMA by Linux
06:35 < zaratustra> anyone uses stackexchange here? I know a neat project in need of some commits to have its own section :(
06:35 < SporkWitch> nai: there's good arguments in both directions, but as a "save for later" as opposed to "thing i need to go to more than once", bookmarks aren't quite as nice, as they require manually cleaning them up.  using tabs in this way, once you're done reading you just close the tab
06:35 < SporkWitch> zaratustra: If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later
06:35 < zaratustra> sorry its offtopic I guess
06:36 < nai> SporkWitch: isn't there a ",ask" command already? :D
06:37 < SporkWitch> nai: this channel doesn't have a bot for it that i'm aware; the text of my AHK macro is stolen from #debian's bot lol
06:37 < nai> .bots
06:37 < nai> !bots
06:37 < Psi-Jack> nai: There are no bots here.
06:37 < nai> ,bots
06:37 < nai> ok
06:42 < nai> freemonad: here's an interesting observation: type 'cat /dev/pts/<n>' in terminal2, where n is the pts number of terminal1
06:43 < nai> then press enter in terminal1
06:43 < nai> terminal2's cursor doesn't move to the next line but moves to the beginning of the current line
06:44 < nai> suggesting that pressing Enter in readline does not actually insert a new line, but rathers tells it to flush the typed line into bash
06:44 < pnbeast> nai, if you do that, you might open a secret channel back to Linus, and he'll be angry and tell you to knock it off, then flip you the bird.
06:44 < freemonad> nai: weird i cant reproduce that
06:44 < freemonad> nai: oh i can sometimes
06:45 < nai> in fact, this is further suggested by the fact that you can press Enter while your cursor is placed anywhere on the line and it will still commit the line
06:45 < nai> freemonad: yes, cat /dev/pts/n produces weird output as two processes concurrently read from the same file
06:46 < nai> man --pager='LESS "+/Commands for Manipulating the History"' bash
06:46 < nai> man --pager='less "+/Commands for Manipulating the History"' bash
06:47 < nai> if you run that, you can see an "accept-line" command triggered by pressing Return (or that other "Newline" key, whatever it is)
06:48 < freemonad> nai: AAHHHHHHHHHHHH
06:48 < freemonad> nai: fascinating!!! i hae no idea how you found that
06:48 < nai> appearently, turning on bash's --noediting option does not prevent this behavior
06:48 < nai> freemonad: i have experience in exploring stuff :^)
06:50 < freemonad> nai: nice :D gonna play around readline now
06:51 < nai> well, now this is weird: running cat | bash in terminal 1 still doesn't allow to run commands externally with echo
06:51 < nai> i'm out of ideas here
06:54 < nai> appearently the ioctl TIOCSTI request allows to fake input on a tty
06:54 < nai> http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/tty_ioctl.4.html
06:55 < nai> yeah, it seems like newlines aren't the issue at all: try running "echo -n ls" in terminal2, and then pressing Return on terminal1. no output.
06:56 < nai> i'm not sure why this is the case
06:56 < nai> why does input have to be made through ioctl calls
06:57 < freemonad> nai: hmm let me catch up through what you said just got back
07:00 < freemonad> wait im confused now.. if "readline" does interpret "\n" as exec-command, then piping in "ls\n" should actually work right?
07:01 < nai> readline does not interpret the \n character, it interprets pressing the Return key
07:03 < ayecee> the shell interprets pressing the enter key. "" prevents the shell from interpreting the \n within
07:04 < freemonad> nai: that would mean readline is actually getting hardware input... i was thinking the tty is translating keyboard input into escape sequences, that eventually readline interprets
07:05 < nai> freemonad: me too, i'm a bit confused
07:05 < nai> ayecee: yes, but that's not the issue here, we have tried printf 'ls\n'
07:08 < ayecee> ok. i kinda airdropped into this one :)
07:13 < kuri0> how do I boot from a sd card when my bios doesn't support it ?
07:13 < nai> freemonad: i'll do more research later.
07:13 < kuri0> i want to try a linux distro which i put on a sd card using etcher
07:13 < kuri0> my boot manager is refind
07:14 < freemonad> nai: cool ill let u know if i find something
07:14 < nai> Use an USB adapter kuri0
07:14 < [R]> kuri0: stick the boot entry from it's boot loader into your existing bootloaer making sure th root= line is correct
07:14 < kuri0> [R], ill try that
07:14 < kuri0> what if it uses squashfs ?
07:14 < [R]> thats irrelevent?
07:14 < kuri0> what about if its dos or a windows installer ?
07:15 < [R]> huh?
07:15 < kuri0> is there something like plop for sd cards ?
07:15 < nai> Didn't you say your BIOS doesn't support SD card boot? Editing the bootloader config won't do anything about that
07:15 < kuri0> nai, linux supports the sd card so editing root line might work
07:15 < kuri0> but then it won't use the correct kernel
07:16 < jim> plop plop fizz fizz
07:16 < diogenese> oh what a relief it is
07:16 < kuri0> refind can use efi drivers so if i could find a efi driver for sd card then that would work
07:16 < jim> you know it L:)
07:17 < nai> ...if your BIOS doesn't support it... nevermind
07:18 < kuri0> nai, still if i could find a efi driver it would work
07:19 < nai> Trusting you on that
07:21 < kuri0> what about kexec ?
07:23 < kuri0> sd card reader is RTS5229
08:17 < freemonad> nai: made some progress.. it seems the tty can handle "line editing" which means it can buffer input and wait for a special char before sending it along, but bash and other shells disable this, so they do get raw input from the tty. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/366340/how-does-bash-retrieves-what-was-written-on-the-terminal-without-enter-being-pr
08:18 < freemonad> can do  `ubuntu@ip-172-31-8-55:~$ stty -F /dev/pts/0`
08:20 < kuri0> i failed finding uefi drivers
08:20 < kuri0> i opened the bios for a dell laptop with same sd card reader in uefitool but couldn't identify which file is the sd card driver
08:23 < rangergord> 3 days to Ubuntu LTS. Finally something exciting happening!
08:24 < Psi-Jack> The end of Ubuntu? Is that finally happening?
08:24 < rangergord> I'm headed out to wait in the queue so I can be guaranteed an ISO
08:24 < rangergord> Psi-Jack: Ubuntu will never die. It's eating up every other distro's marketshare.
08:25 < storge> this is perhaps not a good thing
08:25 < Psi-Jack> Not... really.
08:25 < hexnewbie> They should simply package the good parts (Unity) for Debian and be done with it
08:25 < rangergord> storge: how is it not a good thing? the free market has spoken. Superior, user-friendlier product = more users.
08:26 < rangergord> hexnewbie: Debian is too neckbeardy to make sensible decisions that benefit the average user. They'd have to do a lot more than the UI.
08:27 < rangergord> default programs, drivers, etc
08:27 < rangergord> didn't like half of Debian munity over systemd?
08:27 < rangergord> *mutiny
08:27 < storge> did ubuntu go with systemd yet?
08:27 < Psi-Jack> storge: Long time ago.
08:27 < rangergord> 16.04 for sure has it
08:27 < kuri0> since like 15.10 or 15.04 they have used it
08:27 < rangergord> I don't bother with non-LTS releases so idk
08:28 < rangergord> tbh I'm not sure what I'll get out of updating to 18.04
08:29 < rangergord> considering I'm running the latest anything-i-want via PPAs
08:29 < Psi-Jack> rangergord: More pain. :)
08:29 < rangergord> do they backport drivers for newer hardware to older LTS releases?
08:29 < kuri0> rangergord, yes
08:30 < kuri0> still i had to install 4.15 on ubuntu 16.04 to get my 5 year old wifi card working
08:31 < rangergord> wtf? how did it work 2 years ago?
08:32 < kuri0> rangergord, it worked but had really bad ping and disconnected often
08:32 < Psi-Jack> Sounds like you need a better wifi nic. :)
08:32 < kuri0> bluetooth still doesn't work lol
08:32 < kuri0> even on windows bluetooth doesn't sometimes
08:32 < revel> kuri0: Broadcom wifi+bluetooth thing?
08:32 < kuri0> revel, mediatek rt3290
08:33 < [R]> super terrific chinese crapware
08:33 < kuri0> yes
08:33 < kuri0> wifi function works good actually (less than 1ms ping to local router) on wireless-n network
08:40 < poopBot> how to see what libs i am missing when trying to run something
08:40 < poopBot> i frogot
08:40 < poopBot> i think it was LDD or something
08:40 < Psi-Jack> ldd, lowercase
08:40 < rangergord> when running desktop Linux in a VM on a Windows 10 host, what gives you the best performance? VBox or VMware or Hyper-V?
08:41 < Psi-Jack> rangergord: TIAS.
08:41 < rangergord> TIAS?
08:42 < Psi-Jack> Try It And See.
08:42 < lordvadr_> Transient Ischemic Attack Syndrome.
08:42 < rangergord> Psi-Jack: it's a lot of effort. installing 2 new hypervisors, then 2 OSes, then comparing
08:42 < Psi-Jack> Yep. Have fun. :)
08:42 < rangergord> we have different ideas of fun :)
08:43 < rangergord> to me, fun is horse-rising in nature, seeing beautiful mountains, lakes, etc., when playing Witcher 3
08:43 < lordvadr_> Well, what are you asking? What gives better performance? None, run it on bare metal.
08:44 < lordvadr_> What are you looking for? IO performance, network throughput? CPU overhead?
08:44 < rangergord> lordvadr_: not gonna run baremetal Linux on a modern laptop/tablet hybrid
08:44 < rangergord> lordvadr_: UI drawing speed
08:44 < Psi-Jack> Why not?
08:44 < rangergord> at 4k
08:44 < rangergord> Psi-Jack: it will be missing functionality due to missing drivers, battery will last less, etc
08:44 < lordvadr_> What is your "UI drawing speed" in windows?
08:45 < Psi-Jack> tlp fixes most battery issues.
08:45 < rangergord> lordvadr_: instant. But running KDE Neon at 4k, I see noticeable delays just opening the menu.
08:45 < Psi-Jack> What functionality is missing?
08:45 < lordvadr_> rangergord: What causes the delays?
08:45 < rangergord> Psi-Jack: idk, I'm not gonna try to find out. I can imagine the touchscreen not working, or the tablet pen.
08:46 < Psi-Jack> My touchscreen laptops (plural) work fine, including multi-touch.
08:46 < rangergord> lordvadr_: guess it's poorly-optimized video acceleration? looks fine if I halve the resolution, but I have a 4k screen
08:46 < rangergord> Psi-Jack: also, I'd rather run games on Windows. It's a gaming laptop.
08:46 < lordvadr_> Why is that a question?
08:46 < Psi-Jack> pfftt. "gaming" laptop. :p
08:47 < rangergord> Psi-Jack: seriously. I'm packing a GTX 1060 in here.
08:47 < storge> what is a gaming laptop
08:47 < lordvadr_> I'm confused. What is it you want to do in linux? You appear to want to run windows for everything except to be able to claim you run arch or something.
08:47 < Psi-Jack> storge: An overpriced paperweight with insufficient cooling.
08:48 < aib> any good USB (non-live) distros out there? I wanted to install Arch but manually creating a UEFI/BIOS dual boot USB disk is a pain
08:48 < rangergord> lordvadr_: I use Linux for anything non-video. Like text editing, browsing, writing code. On desktop I run it natively.
08:49 < rangergord> (old desktop)
08:49 < lordvadr_> rangergord: Have you considered that it may be your hypervisor that's the source of the drawign issues?
08:50 < rangergord> lordvadr_: you don't say? That's why I asked if anyone tried other the other popular hypervisors
08:50 < lordvadr_> Nobody has tried <insert X here> unless they've published it.
08:51 < rangergord> I suspect VMware would be better but that requires a commercial license. Hyper-V might be good and is included in Windows 10, but idk if it's gonna be better or worse thna VBox.
08:52 < lordvadr_> You're going to have to ask on a windows forum what hypervisor is "best". Here, we do kvm and xen.
08:52 < rangergord> I will say that performance is definitely based on the DE too. KDE performance is atrocious at 4k, but Unity is fine.
08:52 < rangergord> it's a shame cause I would prefer KDE
08:52 < lordvadr_> But not prefer it enough.
08:53 < storge> uh oh, my thinkpad is getting the hot corner of the lcd
08:53 < lordvadr_> Honestly...i'm giving you a lot of shit...but you should boot a live instance and see what native performance is so that you know what you're up against.
08:54 < lordvadr_> rangergord: Because there's WAY too many variables to give you a short answer.
08:54 < Psi-Jack> ^
08:54 < Psi-Jack> Aka: don't be lazy.
08:54 < revel> But lazing about is great.
08:55 < lordvadr_> Yeah, it don't be like it think but it do.
08:55 < sauvin> Sure is. It's all I've been doing all day: lazing and swearing at erlang. :D
08:55 < rangergord> lordvadr_: there's no way the KDE performance I get in a 4k VM is what's normal, because no one would use it then
08:55 < Psi-Jack> sauvin: Er... Are you sure it's lang? ;)
08:56 < sauvin> I've been running all kinds of crazy things in VBox and haven't noticed any problems with performance. Full disclosure: I don't have any games.
08:56 < rangergord> sauvin: me neither, I'm talking about just opening the KDE menu, there's like a 1 to 1.5s delay
08:56 < lordvadr_> rangergord: I don't disagree with you. But that doesn't answer what *is* normal. Do you have this performacne issue with all 3 hypervisors?
08:56 < rangergord> lordvadr_: fair enough
08:57 < sauvin> I can get a 1 to 1.5 second lag under KDE just running on bare metal.
08:57 < sauvin> KDE is a pig. So's my truck. :D
08:57 < tdn> I see these errors in dmesg: "ERROR Transfer event for disabled endpoint or incorrect stream ring"   Any reason for concern? Or are they safe to ignore? I have an external USB disk connected but it does seem to work fine.
08:57 < chono> is it possible to boot from sd card?
08:58 < rangergord> sauvin: no way. I can't imagine a Qt-based DE being that slow natively. Qt is C++, everything's blazing fast.
08:58 < revel> chono: Yes.
08:58 < wadadli> chono: yes
08:58 < chono> how do i address sd card in grub2 boot loader?
08:58 < wadadli> check man
08:58 < rangergord> I know there's overhead, but KDE wasn't like this when I ran it natively (admittedly 5 years ago)
08:58 < revel> The same way you address any other block device? By UUID or device path (?)
08:58 < chono> it does not show up as (hd#,gpt#) devices
08:58 < sauvin> rangergord, it's not guaranteed that something written in C++ will be gloriously performant. ANYBODY can write crap code in ANY language.
08:59 < chono> revel: do i need to load 'sd card module' into grub?
08:59 < lordvadr_> rangergord: Another soul search for you got go on is about your hard-on for kde. Maybe theres a better DE for your specific use cases.
08:59 < revel> I presume.
08:59 < sauvin> I like KDE because it's never told me "no" when I wanted to do something new.
09:00 < rangergord> yeah it doesn't treat you like a retard
09:00 < luke-jr> sauvin: try snapping windows to screen edges, with the window border visible
09:00 < sauvin> KDE mah beeyotch!
09:00 < revel> If you have something titled that hanging around, then sure. Some initrd stuff could also probably be done.
09:00 < lordvadr_> chono: IIRC /dev/mmcblk or some such.
09:01 < rangergord> sauvin: I really wish a meteor would hit Red Hat just to rid us of Gnome
09:01 < rangergord> cause I don't understand the Linux world standardizing on it
09:01 < lordvadr_> rangergord: /whois lordvadr
09:01 < chono> lordvadr_: my sd card is not visible in grub command shell - is there a good tutorial on that topic to reference?
09:01 < rangergord> lol
09:01 < rangergord> sorry man
09:01 < rangergord> it's the internet, we use hyperbole to have a laugh
09:02 < lordvadr> Dude, don't worry about it. We don't write any of this crap.
09:02 < sauvin> The "linux world" is NOT standardising on Gnome.
09:02 < rangergord> my level of annoyance is closer to "I hope when you turn the pillow at night, the other side is warm too"
09:03 < rangergord> sauvin: it's now the default in all popular distros except openSUSE. Yes, others are "supported" as 2nd-class citizens. I've used Kubuntu in the past, it's not the bug-free experience of Ubuntu.
09:03 < lordvadr> rangergord: Again, we don't write most of this, we just glue it all together. Are you running a rhel-ey distro?
09:03 < sauvin> Nevertheless, I'm using Kubuntu 16.04 without issue.
09:04 < rangergord> even KDE Neon had random crashes. I put up with the slow UI but it wasn't until the random crashes and package breakage that I went back to Ubuntu proper
09:04 < rangergord> (KDE Neon is supposed to be Ubuntu 16.04 with latest KDE libs)
09:04 < lordvadr> rangergord: Ever try Fedora?
09:05 < iflema> dont start now
09:05 < rangergord> lol
09:05 < rangergord> no I haven't. I've only used Debian-based distros
09:06 < rangergord> don't wanna learn another way of doing config. I was surprised the other day to learn the RH family don't configure networking via /etc/network/interfaces
09:06 < lordvadr> rangergord: I get it. I can't work debian based distros because I don't know where shit is.
09:06 < revel> chono: Do you want to boot exclusively from an SD card or can you also make use of a hard drive/CD/USB drive just for booting?
09:06 < rangergord> I was trying to help someone in this channel
09:06 < lordvadr> lol, I have yet to understand how you can configure an entire system's networking in a single file.
09:07 < rangergord> I think systemd-networkd is gonna allow some standardisation/consolidation once it becomes the default everywhere
09:07 < revel> rangergord: So, never? :D
09:07 < luke-jr> rangergord: what revel said
09:07 < rangergord> revel: most popular distros use it by now. Only random snowflake distros with 5 users don't :)
09:07 < sauvin> If you think jumping between Fedora and Debian is traumatic, imagine just how bewildering trying out FreeBSD was. :D
09:08 < rangergord> am I right or am I right?
09:08 < luke-jr> rangergord: you're wrong
09:08 < rangergord> what's the most popular distro without systemd?
09:08 < luke-jr> probably Gentoo?
09:08 < chono> revel: i have a hdd and sd i want to dual boot - can grub-mkconfig auto-detect and create menu entries by itself or do i need to configure manually (enable sd card support perhaps - on kernel, or using mkinitcpiio) i am not very sure/knowledgeable regarding this particular issue
09:08 < lordvadr> rangergord: Anyway, I've run xdm, gnome 2 and now mate for a couple of decades. And I've only run it on bare metal or begrudgingly on VB.
09:08 < sauvin> Which of the rollers don't use systemd, where "rollers" includes the likes of gentoo, slack, arch, ...
09:08 < rangergord> I thought Gentoo was just a punchline on Slashdot comments 15 years ago?
09:09 < luke-jr> sauvin: no true scotsman, eh
09:09 < chono> i found this https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=97207 as a guide to follow
09:09 < lordvadr> rangergord: That's knoppix.
09:09  * luke-jr wonders if Knoppix still exists
09:09  * lordvadr does to
09:09 < sauvin> gentoo's been around since at least 1998, I think it is. Probably earlier. I remember seeing boxed sets of it at CompUSA.
09:09  * iflema used it yesterday
09:09 < rangergord> sauvin: Arch definitely supports systemd cause their fantastic wiki is where I learned most of what I know about it
09:09 < sauvin> OK, strike Arch.
09:10 < revel> chono: I think you'd need to have an initrd image on the HDD (or a CD or USB drive) so that the kernel itself can load and it can then read the SD card, then pivot root over to the SD card.
09:10 < luke-jr> anyway, if rangergord's day ever came, BSD would be a lot more popular I suspect XD
09:11 < revel> And the initrd would also have to contain the modules for the SD card, I guess.
09:11 < hendrix> sauvin: pclinuxos doesn't use systemd
09:11 < revel> Assuming it's not all built-in. But yeah, that's something to look into.
09:11 < lordvadr> Yeah, for some reason, despite being able to do it, most built-in MMC devices don't bind to the sata/scsi bus. They just don't. So booting off of them is challenging.
09:12 < rangergord> luke-jr: I think you underestimate how much new blood care about "popular and just works". I'd love to see desktop usage stats for BSD, or even Gentoo/Slackj. I imagine it's a downward trend.
09:12 < sauvin> hendrix, what package manager does pclinuxos use? It's been a long time since I've even heard it being mentioned.
09:13 < hendrix> sauvin: dunno, check distrowatch
09:13 < rangergord> I imagine Gentoo was more useful back when we still had Pentiums and every CPU cycle counted. Nowadays a 500$ laptop will be CPU idle most of the time as you use it.
09:14 < rangergord> unless you're doing it out of habit, compiling your own sources is not worth the tiny performance benefit
09:14 < luke-jr> implying Gentoo was ever about performance
09:14 < iflema> rangergord: thats not what gentoo is for
09:14 < sauvin> Lots of people sure seemed to think so.
09:14 < rangergord> that's the reason people gave me back then. what's the reason?
09:14 < luke-jr> customisation mainly
09:15 < luke-jr> mixing stable with testing and unstable cleanly; deciding built-time features to install or not
09:15 < revel> Pretty sure the selling point has been "choice"
09:16 < rangergord> luke-jr: why not decide install-time? We're not on dialup here, we can download a DVD ISO in a matter of minutes, even if we're not gonna use 50% of it
09:16 < hendrix> some people take gentoo as a learning experience too
09:17 < luke-jr> rangergord: you can't decide build-time features at install-time..
09:17 < rangergord> also with snap/flatpack I imagine we're moving towards a way to have testing/unstable apps without breakage
09:17 < rangergord> luke-jr: what are we talking about here exactly? picking a kernel scheduler?
09:17 < luke-jr> eg, not having applications require samba
09:17 < revel> rangergord: You can do that with no more than a chroot.
09:18 < nai> nice freemonad , i'll look into that.
09:19 < rangergord> iflema: earlier you said not to bother with Fedora. What's your problem with it?
09:20 < notmike> say mommy
09:20 < revel> Mommy.
09:20 < notmike> sry wrong chan
09:21 < revel> No, you're the one that's wrong.
09:21 < notmike> lets insert a perturbation parameter
09:26  * storge should use perturbed in conversation more often. 
09:27 < iflema> always something... starting with core 3 - every time I look at it I cant work out if its stable, rolling, testing and Gnome, systemd pushing and what not
09:28 < iflema> probably 5 times ive give it a go and just as many times its gone by week 2
09:29 < iflema> was happy with red hat 9
09:31  * iflema struggles to find a .deb based system. Found 1 and its a silly pi
09:31 < storge> devuan?
09:32 < dogbert2> red hat == dead rat :)
09:36 < N3RG4L> eaten by dogbert2 ?
09:36 < dogbert2> LOL...
09:41 < talx> hey guys good morning
09:41 < talx> I need some help if its possible
09:41 < storge> state the problem
09:42 < talx> I'm doing su - user and then I do: setenv DISPLAY somename/unix:10
09:42 < talx> and then I do xclock
09:42 < talx> and I get x11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication
09:42 < talx> the somename/unix:10 I got from doing xauth list $DISPLAY
09:42 < geirha> people still use csh?
09:43 < talx> any idea anyone ?
09:43 < iflema> no but xclock -d is better
09:43 < notmike> people even use ksh
09:43 < revel> talx: XAUTHORITY
09:43 < notmike> and sh
09:44 < revel> Copy the file specified in $XAUTHORITY to somewhere where "user" can read it and set that environment variable for "user" to point to that file.
09:44 < talx> iflema: I did with -d and it says Error: Cant open display: localhost:10.0
09:45 < storge> yeah usually root isn't running the x session i think
09:45 < iflema> talx: -d is just digital clock not one with hands
09:45 < talx> I can do it from root
09:45 < revel> Oh, if it's rootless Xorg, then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
09:45 < talx> but when I do su - user
09:45 < talx> I can't
09:45 < revel> talx: Copy the XAUTHORITY file over.
09:46 < adssa> What does ".:" do in a linux command? For example here "java -cp .:junit-4.12.jar:hamcrest-core-1.3.jar org.junit.runner.JUnitCore Test"
09:46 < geirha> you must tell the X server that user should be allowed to use it
09:46 < storge> su != su -
09:46 < talx> revel
09:46 < talx> how do I check this
09:47 < talx> .Xauthority you mean ?
09:47 < revel> Yes. Copy it to somewhere where this other user can see it and chown it to user:user
09:48 < revel> And then set the environment XAUTHORITY to its location, i.e `export XAUTHORITY=/home/user/.Xauthority`
09:49 < revel> Though if it's in /home/user/.Xauthority, then you wouldn't have to set it anyway, I think, only if you stick it somewhere where it wouldn't think to look.
09:50 < talx> okay I will try to mess with it see how it goes
09:50 < talx> I actually having another issue I couldn't find on google
09:51 < talx> I'm have installed NIS thing is rpcbind.service never goes on startup even though it says enabled
09:51 < talx> when I comeback from restart and check it status it says its off
10:00 < adssa> What does ".:" do in a linux command? For example here "java -cp .:junit-4.12.jar:hamcrest-core-1.3.jar org.junit.runner.JUnitCore Test"
10:01 < nai> does anyone here feel confident about explaining how terminals work, in particular why sending data to /dev/pts/x doesn't result in that data being read by the program running in that terminal?
10:01 < revel> adssa: Are you sure that's not just the file's name?
10:01 < revel> Oh, wait, java.
10:01 < sauvin> adssa, I've never seen '.:' used on a Unix command line, so that might be a Java thing
10:02 < revel> You'd probably have to look at java for info on that, though I'm guessing it's something referring to the contents of the jar file.
10:03 < nai> adssa: that adds "." to the classpath
10:03 < nai> you're telling java to use the current directory, as well as those two .jar files, as the classpath
10:03 < storge> java is as java does. whatever that means.
10:03 < sauvin> It means it's time for another cuppa joe.
10:04 < storge> agreed.
10:04 < heftig> adssa: the parameter to the -cp (classpath) argument is a list of paths to directories or jar files, separated by colons
10:04 < heftig> adssa: so .:foo:bar means . (the current directory) and foo and bar
10:07 < marshwallow> Greetings people. Is anyone here good with schedulers theory, specifically sporadic server scheduler?
10:07 < marshwallow> There's one thing that's bugging me - can I schedule two new replenish events in the future from one period?
10:15 < notmike> Push-up contest?
10:16 < notmike> What's a sporadic server scheduler?
10:16 < iflema> notmike: wet t-shirt
10:16 < iflema> sporadic
10:16  * notmike shakes Bud light out of her hair
10:17 < iflema> lool
10:19 < sauvin> More to the point: what language?
10:19  * iflema chiilin in the club with the crumbs in ya breasts
10:22 < noname___> what is vm.max_map_count and what does it
10:22 < noname___> google is not helpfull
10:24 < iflema> sysctrl
10:24 < revel> noname___: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysctl/vm.txt
10:25 < horseface> guys i get this error when i try to access the privoxy status page at localhost:8118... Invalid header received from client.
10:25 < iflema> yeah that
10:25 < horseface> i've beeen trying to fix it for the past few hours
10:25 < horseface> does anybody know what's up?
10:25 < noname___> revel thx. and what is a "map" is it a bit or a byte or what is it
10:25 < revel> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
10:26 < revel> You can probably find what "memory map" means online.
10:26 < revel> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_map
10:26 < iflema> a layout of memory
10:27 < revel> It's got an X that marks the treasu- I mean the kernel.
10:28 < iflema> and how it relates actual memory
10:28 < marshwallow> notmike, sorry for not responding. Sporadic server is an algorithm which manages aperiodic tasks: https://resources.sei.cmu.edu/asset_files/TechnicalReport/1990_005_001_15848.pdf.
10:28 < benyoo> .bashrc_profile is executed if I connect via. ssh right (not .bashrc)?
10:30 < sauvin> I thought the one sourced the other.
10:30 < geirha> if you run ssh without a remote command, so that it runs a login shell, then it'll read .bash_profile or .profile, yes
10:30 < benyoo> yeah thank you, wanted to be sure
10:31 < geirha> some distros also like to enable a compile-time option in bash to make it source .bashrc when invoked by ssh, even when the shell is non-interactive
10:34 < mr_noobs>                              //|                              ,|
10:34 < mr_noobs>                            //,/                             -~ |
10:34 < mr_noobs>                          // / |                         _-~   /  ,
10:34 < mr_noobs>                        /'/ / /                       _-~   _/_-~ |
10:34 < mr_noobs>                       ( ( / /'                   _ -~     _-~ ,/'
10:34 < mr_noobs>                        \~\/'/|             __--~~__--\ _-~  _/,
10:34 < mr_noobs>                ,,)))))));, \/~-_     __--~~  --~~  __/~  _-~ /
10:35 < N3RG4L> fail :D
10:35 < sauvin> No kidding.
10:35 < cym3try> how can i use regex/sed to extract the string between something like this: <version>I WANT THIS STRING</version>
10:35 < benyoo> It should be a dragon
10:35 < benyoo> or wait, maybe an angel? :D
10:36 < truthr> someone just reported that a black guy was kicked out of here?
10:36 < sauvin> cym3try, is that HTML or some similar markup language?
10:36 < cym3try> sauvin, it's JSON
10:37 < sauvin> In other words, something that allows for nested tags.
10:37 < cym3try> I am writing a CI pipeline to bump up the version. But first I need to be able to extract the version (ex. 1.0.0), add +1 (1.0.1) and replace the current string
10:37 < cym3try> In this case, it is not nested. It's a maven pom file
10:38 < sauvin> My go-to for something like that is perl, honestly.
10:38 < notmike> Ew
10:38 < cym3try> hehe
10:45 < TheDcoder> SDDM is giving me a blank/black screen with Nivida Optimus, does anyone have a similar issue?
10:46 < TheDcoder> Not sure if my card having Optimus technology is relevant but it has giving me a blank screen since I have installed the nvidia drivers
11:01 < nai> cym3try: https://stackoverflow.com/q/1732348
11:01 < nai> this might put you on the right track
11:02 < nai> anyway, if you just want to extract some string from some simple, non nested tag, you can use something like this:
11:02 < nai> echo '<version>I WANT THIS STRING</version>' | grep -P -o '(?<=<version>).*(?=</version>)'
11:04 < nai> cym3try: that being said, you should consider using a parser for whatever format you're dealing with
11:43 < sobczyk> are there any context aware spellcheckers for linux/CLI? ie. one that could at least highlight "The room has been painted bud not in the colour that I asked for"
11:43 < sobczyk> the bud in the sentence is in dict, but incorrect in that sentence
11:45 < blaztek> sobczyk: Even Grammerly doesn't figure that one out
11:48 < iflema> oh... i thought it was to track everyone
11:48 < BCMM> sobczyk: wouldn't that generally come under "grammar checker" rather than "spellchecker"?
11:53 < jhodrien> But only if you know that "bud" is not a colour.
11:53 < djph> ^
11:54 < blaztek> jhodrien: yeah...Grammerly does find it in "It is red bud yellow in size"
11:56 < blaztek> of course, it doesn't figure out that yellow isn't a size
11:57 < nai> can i have shared SSH authorized_keys for all users?
11:57 < jhodrien> nai: What are you trying to do?
11:58 < nai> i run ZNC on my VPS, i'm trying to remotely display the logs, that are stored in the znc user's home directory, and have o-r
11:58 < kuri0> How can I use kexec to boot Windows on a UEFI system ?
11:59 < kuri0> i can't use the grub4dos thing
11:59 < jcelerier1> hello :)
11:59 < kuri0> kexec doesn't seem to accept .efi files
11:59 < jcelerier1> any expert on the ALSA sequencer api ?
11:59 < djph> nai: I think /etc/authorized_keys is the global option.  (but would need to read the manpages to be certain)
11:59 < jcelerier1> I cannot find for the hell of me a way to detect if a MIDI device has been unplugged
11:59 < nai> thanks, gonna look into that
12:00 < jhodrien> Well, AuthorizedKeysFile can specify using an absolute path, and you can specify multiple, so that bit sounds easy.  But I'm not sure I like the sound of it.
12:01 < djph> ^
12:01 < djph> it's your box, su to root if you want to read "other user's logfile"
12:02 < djph> or have them group-owned by (I dunno, something that makes sense), who have read permissions.
12:02 < jhodrien> But the idea of authorized_keys shared by all users sounds really odd.  Do you not mean the opposite?
12:03 < nai> jhodrien: i am the only *person* using my VPS, the users are virtual users, such as root and znc
12:03 < matejz> Anyone knows of a simple tools, that would listen on an interface and generated a summary of src_ip src_port dst_ip dst_port? I would like to enable firewall on one of my servers and would first like to analyze traffic to see what ports to open and what not.
12:03 < nai> so yeah, since it's my box, i want to be able to login as any user with my RSA key
12:03 < High_Priest> matejz, tcpdump
12:04 < iflema> ss
12:04 < BCMM> jhodrien: if "bud" is a colour (which, to be fair, it probably is because paint manufacturers are like that), then the sentence is still erroneous - it needs a comma
12:04 < djph> nai: er, most "users(tm)" are supposed to be non-login users ...
12:04 < BCMM> jhodrien: "The room has been painted bud, not in the colour that I asked for"
12:04 < jhodrien> BCMM: Sure.
12:05 < iflema> netstat even
12:05 < jhodrien> djph: I *guess* you could tweak the ~/.ssh/config for those users to include a global authorized_keys file?  Or use a Match in your sshd config?
12:06 < nai> jhodrien: i guess you meant me, and this can be done in /etc/ssh/sshd_config
12:06 < nai> i.e. AuthorizedKeysFile .ssh/authorized_keys /etc/ssh/authorized_keys
12:06 < jhodrien> Yes, but we're suggesting that's a terrible idea.
12:07 < djph> jhodrien: or, y'know ... just not login to all those users.  :).  I mean one would expect all the virtual-users to be logging to /var/log rather than their homes ... and that you(the human operator) would be part of adm (or at least capable of su root).
12:07 < jhodrien> Oh sure, I'm not actually advocating any of this ;)
12:07 < collins> how does this work. Can I read about linux while (looking at the text) I'm thinking about the meaning of life or how to make an awesome 3D-engine? That must be bad
12:07 < mawk> to create a VPN software using a tun device I need to do a bit of userspace IPv4 to dispatch incoming packets to the right connection over the wire right ?
12:08 < djph> mawk: I wouldn't expect so, I mean routing isn't usually userspace
12:09 < nai> jhodrien: so what would you suggest instead?
12:09 < mawk> it is past the routing here
12:09 < djph> mawk: hm ... i'll have to get back to you after several coffees.
12:09 < mawk> for instance if 172.16.0.0/24 is routed to my tun device, a packet for someone in 172.16.0.0/24 will be given to my vpn program; but now the program needs to decide where to send the packet
12:10 < mawk> 172.16.0.1 is client1, 172.16.0.2 is client2, etc
12:10 < nai> and what's wrong with it anyway?
12:10 < nai> i mainly intend to use it in one-line commands like ssh znc@my.box cat /path/to/log
12:11 < blaztek> nai: but file permissions are all you need for that
12:11 < blaztek> like group
12:12 < blaztek> not other I mean
12:13 < blaztek> like djph mentioned abovie
12:13 < blaztek> above
12:13 < nai> i guess i could add myself to the znc group
12:13 < nai> that would be much easier
12:13 < nai> gonna try this
12:14 < nai> yeah, i went a bit fast on that one
12:19 < sobczyk> BCMM: might be grammar check, I don't care, as long as something points that the bud->but might be an error
12:22 < JimBuntu> sobczyk, in that specific case, "bud" could be a reference to a person. I suspect it would have to be a pretty good system to detect that you may have meant "yellow, but, blah"
12:22 < sobczyk> seems that if I add a comma "The room has been painted, bud not in the colour that I asked for" some spellcheckers can fix that
12:22 < sobczyk> ie. this one http://www.reverso.net/spell-checker/english-spelling-grammar/
12:23 < JimBuntu> that additional comma removes the chance that you were calling someone "bud"
12:24 < JimBuntu> sobczyk, perhaps you can find a checker that recognizes your "our" VS. "or" spelling and will adapt for non-American English.
12:24 < BluesKaj> Hi folks
12:25 < JimBuntu> \o BluesKaj
12:25 < noodlepie> Hiya BluesKaj
12:25 < dgurney> hi
12:25 < noodlepie> JimBuntu, dgurney also Hi!
12:25 < BluesKaj> 'Morning JimBuntu, noodlepie, dgurney
12:33 < mawk> https://www.openssl.org/docs/man1.1.0/ssl/
12:33 < mawk> this is a very bad documentation
12:33 < mawk> I wanted that thing to be simple
12:33 < revel> Nonsense. It's got a list of pages and how large the pages are in kilobytes. What else do you need
12:33 < mawk> lol
12:33 < revel> Even a last edit date! They're spoiling you.
12:34 < mawk> :(
12:34 < geirha> yeah but is that really kilbytes, or are they actually kibibytes?
12:34 < mawk> I think I've found the doc index: https://www.openssl.org/docs/man1.1.0/ssl/ssl.html
12:34 < revel> It says KB, not KiB.
12:34 < geirha> yeah, but K is not an si unit
12:34 < mawk> it's a prefix
12:35 < mawk> in lowercase
12:35 < mawk> and in uppercase it's an unit, yes
12:35 < mawk> but not the one you want
12:35 < revel> Kelvin?
12:35 < mawk> yes
12:36 < geirha> alright, kelvin bytes it is
12:36 < geirha> glad we got that settled
12:36 < mawk> K·b
12:36 < mawk> K·B sorry
12:36 < revel> What's the · for?
12:37 < mawk> it's the multiplication dot
12:37 < mawk> × is for highschool
12:37 < mawk> and * is for computers
12:37 < paradis> X is for Christ
12:37 < paradis> Christmas = Xmas
12:37 < revel> Death is for Christ.
12:37 < revel> paradis: What's XXXmas?
12:37 < mawk> said Nietzsche
12:39 < mawk> I want to make a vpn that is as simple to configure as just copy-pasting public keys + allowed IPs in a config file, and that's it
12:39 < mawk> specifically, a list of nodes with {public key, allowed IPs, endpoint}
12:40 < mawk> so no node is more a server than another
12:40 < mawk> which greatly simplifies the configuration
12:40 < mawk> that vpn of my dreams already exists but it's UDP only, and I want something over ssl to pass through lame firewalls
12:41 < ice9> what's the default cipher for cryptsetup?
12:41 < ntd> ptx0, ping
12:41 < ntd> aes-xts-plain64
12:41 < ntd> at least for the ub installer
12:42 < ice9> ntd, and what's the recommended cipher regarding security?
12:42 < ntd> pros and cons abound
12:42 < mawk> ice9: aes-xts-plain64
12:42 < mawk> when you chose Luks
12:42 < mawk> and aes-cbc-essiv:sha256 for dm-crypt
12:44 < ice9> if i will use entire usb disk for luks, do i have to create the partition as in /dev/sdb1 or can directly use it as /dev/sdb?
12:44 < mawk> it shouldn't matter
12:44 < mawk> but you need a boot partition
12:44 < mawk> so you will end up making partitions anyway
12:44 < mawk> unless the boot partition is elsewhere
12:45 < mawk> also you need an EFI system partition, if that applies
12:55 < mawk> looks like NSS is way better documented than openssl
12:55 < mawk> let's go for that
12:55 < mawk> which one is the most performant ? for the dumbest usage
12:57 < mawk> "And like OpenSSL, much of the NSS API is not documented." :((
13:00 < djph> you sound surprised.
13:01 < mawk> yeah
13:02 < mawk> I'd expect such widely used lib to be at least a little documented
13:02 < revel> mawk: The code is self-documenting.
13:03 < mawk> it's not a very sane approach when the goal is encryption
13:03 < mawk> you don't want to leave backdoors by misusing the library
13:06 < ananke> self-documenting code is a poor excuse for a library. api needs proper documentation
13:09 < djph> self-documenting code is an MBA bullshit moniker.
13:12 < ozymandias> self documenting code also only applies to the portion of the code that gets changed/maintained -- the external interfaces SHOULD be fairly static
13:12 < ozymandias> and thus the issue of keeping documentation accurate goes away
13:13 < djph> ozymandias: well, until you're coding in an "agile" manner, and you're changing the interfaces every revision, because you're an ADD-hipster-monkey.
13:13 < djph> (or your boss is)
13:13 < ozymandias> fair enough
13:13 < ozymandias> at which point you autogen docs
13:14 < ozymandias> :-D
13:17 < djph> ozymandias: or ask the person who's actually been writing good code how to do it right.
13:17 < djph> ozymandias: but they're few and far between these days
13:19 < peetaur2> do both self documenting code and documentation
13:19 < peetaur2> and unit tests...unit tests are great for showing that the code even does what you want...sometimes you find some strange behavior in code and you're not even sure if they wanted it to be that way or not... a unit test passing and testing that behavior confirms that
13:20 < ozymandias> self documenting is a supliment to docs -- not a replacement. The whole idea of self documenting code is to cover the gaps when you change code, but dont updates comments and docs
13:20 < horseface> does anybody here use privoxy?
13:21 < BluesKaj> just ask your question abouit it horseface, don't take polls
13:23 < peetaur2> no need for name calling
13:23 < BluesKaj> peetaur2, that's his nick :-)
13:25 < horseface> BluesKaj i get this error when i try to access the localhost:8118 page...
13:25 < horseface> Invalid header received from client.
13:25 < horseface> i have searched the net far and wide to no solutoon.
13:27 < jpe> Is it possible to "steal" stdio/in/err from an application running in another pts? E.g. you ran something locally and forgot to use a screen session, and want to access the running instance via SSH?
13:29 < peetaur2> horseface: try another browser...or curl; when you find one that works and one that doesn't, try manually sending different headers, one by one, until it's the same as a non working...and then you know which header it is
13:34 < horseface> what is a header?
13:34 < horseface> peetaur2
13:34 < horseface> it works in firefox but not epiphany
13:34 < horseface> and only slightly...
13:34 < horseface> brb
13:54 < sda2> hi i m new to linux. what is dd
13:55 < BCMM> sda2: dd reads data from a file, and writes it to another file. as is typical in Unix, one or both of the "files" might not always be what you'd typically think of as a "file"
13:56 < Zharf> everything is a file!
13:56 < sda2> BCMM: what is /dev/zero?
13:56 < BCMM> sda2: /dev/zero is a special "file"
13:57 < revel> character special (1/5)
13:57 < sda2> BCMM: what is it used for?
13:57 < BCMM> sda2: it reads as if it's an infinitely long series of null characters
13:57 < horseface> peetaur2 what is a header?
13:58 < sda2> dd if=/dev/zero of=/bigfile bs=1M count=1024
13:58 < sda2> what does the above command do
13:58 < BCMM> sda2: it creates a 1GiB blank file
13:58 < ananke> sda2: 'man dd'
13:59 < BCMM> sda2: one reason you might want to do that would be to use it as a hard disk image for a virtual machine
13:59 < BCMM> (you could then partition and format that blank space from inside the VM, in this example)
14:00 < BCMM> horseface: in http, both the client and the server can send a number of "headers" before the actual request or content is transferred. it's basically how metadata is communicated in http
14:01 < sda2> BCMM: i still feel lost
14:01 < BCMM> horseface: for example, the client can send their "user agent" to announce which browser you're using, and the server can send a "last modified" date for the content it's giving you. there are many other optional headers available for various purposes.
14:01 < BCMM> sda2: are you following some kind of tutorial here?
14:02 < BCMM> sda2: i mean, it might help to know where you're getting that command from, and whether you want to know how it actually works inside, or just want to know the practical effects
14:02 < horseface> i see
14:02 < sda2> BCMM: yes a linux troubleshooting tutorial
14:02 < horseface> is privoxy still supporrted/
14:02 < horseface> ?
14:03 < BCMM> horseface: supported by what?
14:03 < sda2> BCMM: both would be better
14:03 < horseface> maintained?
14:04 < BCMM> sda2: /dev/zero is not a real file on your hard disk, it's a special file found on all linux machines. it functions as if it's an infinitely long file of null characters (i.e. the character expressed as 00000000 in binary)
14:04 < sda2> BCMM: what are all the use cases where this file can be used
14:04 < BCMM> sda2: dd if=a of=b bs=1M count=1024 will copy the first gigabyte of file a to file b
14:05 < BCMM> sda2: there's all kinds of uses for a blank file; i probably can't list them all
14:05 < sda2> did you mean first megabyte in the previous chat?
14:05 < BCMM> sda2: (did you mean uses for /dev/zero, or uses for /bigfile)
14:06 < sda2> i meant for /dev/zero and also for the dd command
14:06 < jhodrien> No, first gigabyte.  1024 x 1M.
14:06 < BCMM> sda2: no. bs=1M means it will read a 1 megabyte chunk of the file. count=1024 means it will do that thing 1024 times
14:06 < sda2> sure
14:07 < BCMM> sda2: were you asking for use cases of /dev/zero, or use cases of finite blank files created with dd?
14:07 < sda2> both
14:08 < BCMM> sda2: dev zero is used any time you need a stream of null characters (and you're using a utility that doesn't have a built-in facility to generate such a stream)
14:09 < BCMM> sda2: for example, AND DO NOT ACTUALLY DO THIS, PLEASE, people sometimes use dd if=/dev/zero of=[a hard disk block device here] to erase a hard drive before disposing of it
14:09 < sda2> sure, and why its a bad approach
14:10 < BCMM> sda2: well, don't do it unless you really want to lose everything on that disk, is the point
14:10 < sda2> sure
14:10 < BCMM> i just wanted to make it really clear that's not a good command to run as an experiment
14:11 < BCMM> sda2: anyway, it's a bit of a contrived example, because nearly everybody has the shred utility which can do the same thing, but it shows how you can re-use a utility that's basically designed for copying to do something else by using a special character device
14:12 < BCMM> sda2: as i mentioned above, one reason to generate a large blank file is to use it as a disk image (for a vm, or to create a bootable USB stick, or something else)
14:12 < sda2> BCMM: sure something like this dd if =/dev/sda2 of=~/hdadisk.img?
14:13 < BCMM> sda2: well, that's creating an image from an existing, real partition on disk
14:13 < BCMM> sda2: i was talking about using /dev/zero to make a completely blank, fresh image
14:13 < sda2> sure
14:14 < sda2> so what would be the size if we copy a stream of null characters to a destination.. is it null?
14:14 < BCMM> sda2: the size is whatever size you asked dd for
14:14 < BCMM> sda2: a null character is *not* the absence of data - it's just a string of a zeros
14:15 < BCMM> (perhaps i should say "series of zeros" to avoid confusion with text strings)
14:15 < sda2> dd if=/dev/zero of=/bigfile bs=1M count=1024 so basically here,the 1GB will be null so that anyone can use the /bigfile partition?
14:15 < BCMM> sda2: if you link the troubleshooting guide you're following, somebody might be able to explain what the command means in the context you're using it
14:16 < BCMM> sda2: /bigfile is a file, rather than a partition, in this context
14:16 < ananke> sda2: you keep confusing the idea of 'null' with character '0'
14:16 < sda2> yes I saw them using time dd if=/dev/zero of=/bigfile bs=1M count=1024; they ran the comamand twice to perform io benchmarking
14:16 < BCMM> ananke: i know that's probably not what you meant, but that risks creating confusion between 0 and \0
14:16 < BCMM>  /dev/zero does *not* produce the string "00000000000"...
14:17 < sda2> got it
14:17 < BCMM> sda2: oh, i see. they're just writing a lot of zeros to disk, to see how well the filesystem or disk performs
14:17 < sda2> cool
14:17 < BCMM> sda2: the point of using /dev/zero for this is that you're more-or-less gauranteed that the source of your data isn't the bottleneck, because /dev/zero doesn't have to do much work to generate nulls
14:18 < BCMM> sda2: but it's not a very useful test of performance, imho. too little resemblance to real-life usage patterns.
14:18 < sda2> sure
14:18 < sda2> what would be the ideal set of tests to do then
14:19 < jhodrien> Test what you want to test.  As long as you know that there's no compression or dedupe, it does what it says it'll do.  If you want a filesystem benchmark, use a filesystem benchmark.
14:20 < BCMM> sda2: in particular, some filesystem might notice that you're just storing a bunch of nulls, and not actually write them to disk at all
14:21 < Netham46> What's the best way to have a hotkey run as root?
14:21 < jhodrien> *Do* filesystems actually pull that off and make a file dynamically sparse?
14:21 < jhodrien> Netham46: Have it run a sudo job?
14:21 < noodlepie> How do I get the df status to sync after I remove some files from the partition?
14:21 < noodlepie> df still shows the disk is full
14:21 < BCMM> jhodrien: i don't know, for "regular" filesystems
14:21 < jhodrien> noodlepie: If the files are still open, it'll still show them as full.
14:22 < BCMM> jhodrien: but deduplicating stuff in virtualised environments will absolutely spot that
14:22 < Netham46> Eh, I'll just make a root script that watches for a file and fires when it's written.
14:22 < g1itch> I rebooted my workstation this morning and now the system isn't detecting that i have a WiFi card (this is a laptop). any idea on steps to diagnose?
14:22 < jhodrien> You only get the free space back when the file's closed.
14:22 < BCMM> Netham46: sudo
14:22 < jhodrien> Ah true, I wasn't thinking at the right layer.
14:22 < noodlepie> should I reboot?
14:22 < BCMM> Netham46: you can configure sudoers to allow specific commands to be run as root without entering a password
14:22 < jhodrien> Well, or restart the process with the file still open.
14:22 < Netham46> Yea, I guess I could just set sudo to not require a password for this command
14:23 < jhodrien> lsof any use?
14:23 < BCMM> Netham46: then just call sudo /path/to/script.sh in your regular hotkey program
14:23 < BCMM> Netham46: running specific, safe commands as root is exactly what sudo is for. this thing where it runs *every* command after prompting for a password is basically a misuse of it :)
14:24 < ananke> g1itch: does your laptop have a physical switch to enable/disable wifi?
14:24 < g1itch> ananke it's got a function key combo which i've tried. no physical switch to my knowledge
14:25 < Netham46> BCMM: making it so I can double-tap scroll lock to switch if my keyboard is attached to the host or a VM.
14:25 < ananke> g1itch: fastest way to diagnose is to split the problem in half and test each part. you have software & hardware, so you test software by trying another OS
14:25 < g1itch> ananke will a live boot usb be enough>
14:26 < wiq> Hi. I have deleted my important folder by mistake with command `unlink folder`. How can I recover it?
14:26 < BCMM> Netham46: do you already have a way of configuring plain old user hotkeys in your environment?
14:27 < Netham46> BCMM: not yet, was going to check if Gnome has something built-in or go with autokey.
14:27 < BCMM> Netham46: when you say "attached to the host or a VM", are you talking about USB passthrough or what?
14:28 < BCMM> Netham46: i mean, *how* do you attach the kb to the vm?
14:28 < ananke> g1itch: it should be
14:28 < Netham46> BCMM, yea, passthrough. I've already got two .sh commands, one attaches and the other detaches.
14:29 < BCMM> Netham46: so, uh... when the keyboard is attached to the vm, how are you going to detect the scroll lock key?
14:29 < ananke> wiq: ideally, you're going to get out of your backup. realistically, that depends on filesystem and what you've done to it since that event. 'testdisk' can help you recover data, but metadata will be lost
14:29 < BCMM> Netham46: seems like even the kernel won't have a clue you're pressing keys
14:29 < Netham46> BCMM: hotkey on the VM too
14:29 < wiq> ananke, I am using ubuntu. I don't have backup of that.
14:29 < Netham46> Just make it run an ssh execute to run the other script when it sees the hotkey.
14:29 < wiq> ananke, how to do that with 'testdisk' ? I am new to linux
14:30 < BCMM> Netham46: that's fair enough actually, although there's a lotta moving parts in this plan now :)
14:30 < sda2> BCMM: what do you mean by this "in particular, some filesystem might notice that you're just storing a bunch of nulls, and not actually write them to disk at all"
14:30 < BCMM> Netham46: have you considered abusing the case's power button for this?
14:30 < ananke> wiq: there are plenty of tutorials on the web
14:30 < sda2> what is the difference there in storing and not actually writing
14:30 < ananke> wiq: search for 'recover testdisk' for example
14:30 < Netham46> BCMM: lol, no, but I like it.
14:32 < g1itch> ananke i booted into windows 10 on a second internal harddrive and the wifi worked fine
14:33 < BCMM> sda2: there is something called a "sparse file", where the OS just remembers the length of large blocks of nulls and doesn't actually waste real disk space writing a bunch of 0s
14:33 < jhodrien> sda2: Well, if it spots that you're writing a file entirely full of nulls it can simply record that it's 1Gbyte long, and entirely null, and not actually store any data at all.
14:34 < g1itch> I do see that it appears it may be "unclaimed" in lshw output: *-network UNCLAIMED
14:34 < g1itch>                 description: Network controller
14:34 < BCMM> sda2: just dd'ing zeros won't create a sparse file (in most situations), but it can be possible to accidentally make a space file when you copy a blank file, for example
14:34 < g1itch>                 product: Wireless 8260
14:47 < g1itch> any ideas why linux may not be recognizing my wifi hardware? it was working fine before a reboot. other OS (dual boot) sees it and it works just fine.
14:48 < lupine> hmm, is there are more-restrictive cap than `SYS_ADMIN` that will permit access to bind mounts?
14:53 < ananke> g1itch: check software updates that took place before your last reboot
14:53 < noodlepie> glitch13,have you build the required kernel modules driver for your hardware?
14:54 < g1itch> ananke I do see this in dmesg, not sure if it helps: https://hastebin.com/ipeboyuvit.go
14:54 < BCMM> g1itch: what linux distro are you using?
14:55 < g1itch> arch
14:55 < BCMM> g1itch: asked before i saw your dmesg, wondered if it was a firmware problem
14:55 < BCMM> g1itch: but never mind, that looks like an actual driver bug
14:55 < BCMM> g1itch: does it do that every time you boot up?
14:56 < g1itch> BCNM i believe so, but only recently
14:56 < g1itch> since yesterday
14:57 < ananke> g1itch: check what updates took place recently
14:58 < g1itch> ananke https://hastebin.com/aveqovuqeb.css
14:58 < g1itch> although i don't completely shutdown often, it could have been before then too
15:00 < ananke> g1itch: point being, it looks like a change in software. find whether your kernel/firmware/wifi packages were updated. see if they got updated in the window between your last two reboots, or not
15:00 < ananke> if it was updated, then it further proves that the issue was with software, and then you can take that info and file a bug with your distro
15:03 < g1itch> got it - thanks!
15:28 < tunekey> if i want to make my gnome terminal by default, in .bash_profile, i: export TERMINAL="GNOME Terminal" -is this right? what is the proper name for the gnome terminal? is this right?
15:29 < BCMM> tunekey: are you trying to set the default terminal emulator for your desktop environment?
15:29 < BCMM> tunekey: your terminal launches bash - bash doesn't launch your terminal
15:31 < Drakonan> b
15:32 < pankaj> What is the ain objective of IEEE society. I was searching information about POSIX and then stuck on it.
15:33 < noodlepie> linux is just soo good. I like its speed and configuration
15:34 < djph> pankaj: you mean the "main objective"?
15:34 < pankaj> djph: Yes, the main objective because in wikipedia  their is whole lot of function written about it.
15:34 < BCMM> pankaj: they're a professional society - lots of professions, industries and academic fields have them
15:35 < pankaj> BCMM: What is their main objective?
15:35 < triceratux> pankaj: theyre a thinktank for industry wide standards formulation
15:35 < BCMM> pankaj: to represent the interests of people working in electrical and electronic engineering
15:35 < noodlepie> 4.16.3-gentoo working stable here!
15:35 < jeffreylevesque_> can i see what a running `watchdog` service is doing?
15:36 < pankaj> BCMM: IEE Computer Society. Triceratux got it right.
15:36 < BCMM> presumably. they may have a formal mission statement somewhere...
15:36 < pankaj> triceratux: OK. That is OK.
15:36 < nohop> Hey guys. What's the best way to have some binaries executed on the (read-only) root filesystem, right before 'halt' when doing shutdown -H ? (I need to talk to some external hardware to actually switch the power off)
15:36 < BCMM> pankaj: https://www.ieee.org/about/vision-mission.html
15:37 < BCMM> in their own words, "IEEE's core purpose is to foster technological innovation and excellence for the benefit of humanity."
15:37 < triceratux> noodlepie: gj. you gentoo types are always way ahead of me. im still stuck on 4.16.2-exton but its working fine too
15:37 < pankaj> triceratux: While reading about POSIX I noticed that many of different applications have been standardised under POSIX. Is POSIX exists to help UNIX like operating system maintain their open source property?
15:37 < pankaj> BCMM: OK. Checking.
15:38 < djph> pankaj: UNIX isn't open-source ...
15:38 < djph> pankaj: and no, POSIX isn't for that. It's a set of standards systems should follow.
15:38 < pankaj> djph: Is their more to add. I think
15:39 < djph> pankaj: not really. I mean, Windows "could" be POSIX-compliant if msft wanted it to be.
15:39 < BCMM> "UNIX isn't open-source" is a bit too broad-brush, i think
15:39 < nohop> Holy shit. That ban-message... That's a major dick move!
15:40 < djph> BCMM: "UNIX" was never open-source. And I misread pankaj's comment ... he said "UNIX-like"
15:40 < pankaj> djph: Ya. I saw on wiki.
15:40 < pankaj> djph: THe essential motive behind it?
15:40 < djph> pankaj: what ?
15:40 < pankaj> djph: My mistake.
15:41 < jhodrien> djph: Windows has elements of POSIX compliance, especially if you play with options.
15:41 < pankaj> pankaj: Of POSIX standard. Standardise for what sake?
15:41 < jhodrien> Like, NTFS *can* be run in case sensitive mode.
15:41 < djph> UNIX was written by AT&T for ... whatever system they were developing at the time.
15:41 < noodlepie> Gentoo rules - its so simple and easy to configure (mostly down the the sotware package's credit) and use. I like emerge as much as I like apt in Debain
15:41 < BCMM> djph: UNIX can mean a lot more than the original UNIX OS, depending on context
15:41 < triceratux> pankaj: interoperability, economy of design, eliminating loops where projects are forced to reinvent the wheel
15:42 < pankaj> triceratux: What?
15:42 < djph> BCMM: err ...
15:42 < geirha> Today UNIX is a certification
15:42 < BCMM> pankaj: standardization in the interests of inseparability. for example, to make it easier to port software between different operating systems
15:43 < noodlepie> I like cde and motif
15:43 < triceratux> pankaj: its useful to be able to clearly communicate aspects & attributes of successful technologies whether theyre open source or not
15:43 < avis> i coded the first openindiana which was unix compatible.  opensolaris i believe is also unix compatible
15:43 < noodlepie> and wmaker and gnome
15:45 < pankaj> BCMM: So, theirfore you will find many similar applications in all UNIX like operating system (Not unix so please do not beat me up).
15:45 < triceratux> "theres never time to do it right, but theres always time to do it over." the ieee is motivated by trying to do it right
15:45 < BCMM> pankaj: sorry, i trusted my spellchecker too much there... "interoperability", not inseparability
15:46 < pankaj> BCMM: That's OK.
15:46 < BCMM> pankaj: it is possible to write a simple program that can be compiled and run on almost any POSIX-compliant OS
15:47 < collins> triceratux: can you tell me to drop the control and stop trying to control everything?
15:47 < BCMM> pankaj: more complicated programs often run in to platform-specific issues, but POSIX still aids portability
15:47 < BCMM> pankaj: you can think of the difference between POSIX operating systems as like the difference between web browsers
15:48 < BCMM> pankaj: they independently implement the same standards, so a lot of things work the same between them
15:48 < djph> BCMM: one spies on you, and the other takes a bit of tinkering to get right?
15:48 < jhodrien> Apart from CSS box models ;)
15:49 < geirha> And IE goes "I'll just do this instead"
15:51 < pankaj> BCMM: OK.
15:51 < pankaj> BCMM: Thanks for help
15:51 < BCMM> geirha: yeah, in this analogy microsoft is still microsoft :)
15:52 < noodlepie> I love Gentoo (and Debian for that matter)! Linux is like a brand new car engine for free, every day. You still have to pay petrol/gas - electricity though :)
15:52 < noodlepie> microsoft are a virus / cancer
15:52 < donald> I am looking for a backup softare as easy as deja dup but compatible with windows and linux both. Which one do you suggest me?
15:53 < djph> format windows, install linux; then use rsync
15:54 < Psi-Jack> ^
15:55 < Psi-Jack> donald: Different OS, different tools. Use the most appropriate for each.
15:55 < donald> Psi-Jack nice.
15:55 < donald> good bye
15:55 < donald> wait
15:56 < donald> djph, Psi-Jack goodbye
15:56 < donald> and thank you
15:58 < triceratux> Psi-Jack: if i wanted to start reading up on caching dns should i look no further than dnsmasq or are there more adroit alternatives out there ?
16:00 < Psi-Jack> There's many alternatives, though dnsmasq alone is pretty nice, configurable, and powerful.
16:00 < djph> I'm a fan of bind.  dnsmasq annoys me.
16:00 < djph> there's also unbound
16:01 < Psi-Jack> bind is kinda overkill for just dns resolving/caching.
16:01 < Psi-Jack> unbound is like applying a sledge hammer to a tack nail.
16:01 < djph> yeh, well, it does split-horizon for me too.  unbound is (IIRC) the "just resolver" bit.
16:03 < BCMM> dnsmasq is a bit overkill for just dns caching too
16:03 < BCMM> it's an all-in-one dhcp and dns server, basically does everything you need for a NAT router except for the actual routing bit
16:04 < Psi-Jack> Well, it /can/, yes.
16:05 < noodlepie> Free Software is like free drugs!
16:07 < jhodrien> BCMM: So what's the best option for a pure caching dns?
16:07 < jnewt> having an issue opening files with libreoffice from my nfs share.  libreoffice tries to start, but i get General input / output error  and the files won't open.  nfs is mounted via fstab and i've tried a variety of options.   how do I actually track down whats causing this as opposed to my guess and check method?
16:08 < Psi-Jack> jnewt: Well, is the NFS mount working?
16:10 < jnewt> Psi-Jack, I can browse, open text files, copy to/from the mount.   but most of the files on it are msoffice files, which I can't open.   I'd say it's 50% working
16:10 < solidfox> do you guys prefer SELinux or AppArmor
16:10 < solidfox> or something else
16:11 < Psi-Jack> solidfox: SELinux where properly available, AppArmor where not.
16:11 < solidfox> currently, I use kubuntu so I've been using AppArmor and didn't know it I think
16:11 < jhodrien> jnewt: So I assume if you cp the file off the NFS share, you can then open it with libreoffice?
16:11 < jnewt> jhodrien: that is correct
16:13 < Psi-Jack> NFSv3 or NFSv4?
16:13 < jhodrien> Locking?
16:14 < jnewt> jhodrien, i have not set nolock.  I think I want to keep it from what I understand from man.
16:15 < jhodrien> https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/17639/i-get-general-inputoutput-error-while-accessing-when-trying-to-open-a-file-on-an-nfs-share/
16:15 < jnewt> Psi-Jack, mount -v reports v3
16:15 < jhodrien> So does the SAL_ENABLE_FILE_LOCKING=1 fix work for you?
16:16 < Psi-Jack> Well, that's part of the problem. NFSv3.
16:17 < jnewt> jhodrien, I also found that question.   I see the the answer at the bottom does not set nolock, but the answer that was accepted does.   seems that there's no commonality between the two submitted answers.
16:18 < jhodrien> All of the issues seem to relate to locking.  I'm guessing you've not got a functional nfs-lockd.
16:18 < jhodrien> So either you tweak soffice to cope without functional locking, you tweak the system to not need functional locking, or you fix your nfs to do functional locking.
16:18 < jnewt> Psi-Jack, I can enable v4 on the server, but then I have to jump through some user/group info hoops.  was hoping to avoid extra work / setup if I can fix it with something simpler
16:19 < Psi-Jack> Sure. NFSv4 is way faster than NFSv3, too.
16:19 < jhodrien> Way faster?
16:19 < Psi-Jack> Yes.
16:19 < jhodrien> I'm not sure we really noticed a difference.
16:20 < Psi-Jack> You definitely would on good equipment. :)
16:20 < jhodrien> Yeah well, that could explain things ;)
16:21 < jhodrien> Hopefully soon to move to SSD fronted netapps.
16:21 < jhodrien> We'll see how that pans out.
16:21 < Psi-Jack> Don't even need SSD to see a performance boost from the difference.
16:22 < jhodrien> No, but I'm assuming the more you can take the storage out of the equation, the more the protocol can win?
16:22 < jnewt> ok, i'm going to set to v4 on the server.   I don't know anything about lockd or how to determine if it's functional / non-functional
16:22 < Psi-Jack> Of course. heh
16:22 < jhodrien> There's not a lot NFS can do to make our RAID-6 on rust fast.
16:23 < CrazyTux> does LTS mean more stable versions of distros?
16:23 < Psi-Jack> Scrape off the rust. heh, you'll laugh, but, switch to samda, enable sendfile, use smb3.0 protocol, which is as fast as nfsv4. ;)
16:23 < Psi-Jack> samba*
16:24 < djph> CrazyTux: provided that you understand "stable" to mean "major software revisions won't be provided" (that is, security patches and support moreso than "latest version" of a program)
16:25 < CrazyTux> djph, ok.
16:25 < Psi-Jack> LTS means simply "Long Term Support"
16:26 < CrazyTux> what is the actual risk if the distro has a kernel that is not patched for spectre and meltdown vulnerabilities?
16:26 < Psi-Jack> That doesn't mean major software revisions. That means, Long Term Support, meaning that distro version will receive updates, security updates, for a long period of time. Usually ~8 years.
16:26 < CrazyTux> Psi-Jack, ok
16:26 < Psi-Jack> CrazyTux: Very high.
16:27 < pankaj> What is difference between LSB four separate standards: Desktop, Core, Runtime Languages and Imaging? Why so important?
16:27 < CrazyTux> do all the majro distros have their kernels patched?
16:27 < Psi-Jack> Yes
16:28 < CrazyTux> I am using MX linux also. It doesn't have those patches yet.
16:28 < Psi-Jack> I recall.
16:29 < CrazyTux> is the current version of Mint patched for these vulnerabilites?
16:29 < Psi-Jack> I also recall many times strongly recommending you to use a major distro. And you ignoring any and all suggestions to the matter.
16:30 < Psi-Jack> That said. I'm moving on from this discussion.
16:30 < CrazyTux> Psi-Jack, ok.
16:31 < CrazyTux> Psi-Jack, btw, is Mageia one of those major distros?
16:32 < CrazyTux> can I rely on this? https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major
16:34 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: there is expection.  Debian testing and sid  unpatched but  stable Linux kernel version and very close to unpatched in every other version.  https://www.kernel.org/category/releases.html  Kind makes sense when the debian kernel maintainer is a upstream kernel.org release maintainer.
16:34 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: Ben Hutchings is the Debian kernel maintainer.
16:34 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: and he also takes care of a LTS branches.
16:35 < CrazyTux> oiaohm, ok.
16:38 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: debian shows you that distributions could have their kernel maintainers work upstream if they wished that.
16:39 < CrazyTux> oiaohm, but Debian is not suitble for beginners and for casual home and office use. Isn't it?
16:39 < CrazyTux> Debian is for experts.
16:39 < pepermuntjes> CrazyTux, nonsense!
16:39 < pepermuntjes> your crazy
16:39 < telmich> ahhhh
16:39 < NoriusNotorius> what is an expert?
16:39 < dgurney> debian is suitable for intermediate users
16:39 < CrazyTux> pepermuntjes, tell me. Is Debian as easy to use as Mint?
16:40 < telmich> So cool, first three made it into level 2 of the ungleichquiz!
16:40 < pepermuntjes> never used mint
16:40 < pepermuntjes> debian was one of my very first distro's
16:40 < Psi-Jack> Oi... Here we go again.
16:40 < CrazyTux> pepermuntjes, which other distros are you using now?
16:40 < pepermuntjes> i use centos7 as my main desktop
16:41 < CrazyTux> btw, CentOS is the same as RHEL?
16:41 < pepermuntjes> yes
16:41 < djph> no
16:41 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: debian huge pool of software makes it really useful to casual and beginners.  I will give you that starting out with it is a little rougher at first.
16:42 < djph> it's very similar, yes; but it's not "the same"
16:42 < CrazyTux> ok
16:42 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: most people I start with testing for newer software than debian stable.
16:42 < pepermuntjes> the only only only 'hard thing' they need to do is to edit sources.list and add non-free to each line to get all the non-free goodies like mp3
16:43 < pepermuntjes> besides that, its easier then ubuntu
16:43 < CrazyTux> pepermuntjes, have you used OpenSuse Leap before?
16:43 < pepermuntjes> can't say i have
16:43 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: debian does a lot more quality testing that most distributions.   Exception is of course redhat enterprise that does more.
16:44 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: but redhat has also reduce package list.
16:44 < pepermuntjes> with debian you have a change of somebody doing something with your bug report. With ubuntu your bug report gets ignored forever.
16:45 < dgurney> the sheer size of package list is ultimately meaningless... just because something has a lot of packages, doesn't mean all packages are up-to-date or actively maintained
16:45 < CrazyTux> pepermuntjes, so, in your opinion Debian is better than Ubuntu?
16:45 < pepermuntjes> yes
16:45 < pepermuntjes> but maybe 18.04 will change things?
16:46 < CrazyTux> how? in what sense/
16:46 < CrazyTux> ?
16:47 < pepermuntjes> i heard they live patch the kernel
16:48 < oiaohm> dgurney: https://wiki.debian.org/qa.debian.org/MIATeam  part of doing effective QA is checking that packaged do in fact have maintainers and if a package does not have maintainers start lining up to get a new maintainer to drop the package.
16:48 < dgurney> my point wasn't that debian doesn't do QA
16:48 < pepermuntjes> and debian also has one secret
16:49 < horseface> hey guys i want my networking configuration to load like so; openvpn, then i2p, then tor. i have created a drop-in file as stated here https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd#Drop-in_files
16:49 < pepermuntjes> it doesn't have amazon button and they don't send your searches to amazon!
16:49 < horseface> and i have this in my tor override
16:49 < dgurney> my point was that sheer size is useless if the collection is full of unmaintained junk
16:49 < horseface> [Unit]
16:49 < horseface> Requires=i2prouter.service
16:49 < horseface> After=i2prouter.service
16:49 < dgurney> pepermuntjes, Ubuntu hasn't sent searches to amazon by default for years now...
16:49 < dgurney> the button is still there, but not too hard to unpin it
16:49 < horseface> and this in my i2prouter override
16:50 < horseface> [Unit]
16:50 < horseface> Requires=openvpn-client@mullvad_se.service
16:50 < horseface> After=openvpn-client@mullvad_se.service
16:50 < CrazyTux> has anybody here used PCLinuxOS?
16:50 < horseface> but it doesn't load like that
16:50 < horseface> in fact it happens in reverse...
16:50 < horseface> can somebody help me please?
16:51 < SporkWitch> horseface: 1) this isn't twitter, don't use newlines as a substittue for punctuation, and do use pastebin if you need to paste logs / configs, 2) check #i2p
16:52 < CrazyTux> I see that there are so many distros based on Debian. Distros like MX linux, linux Mint. Does the work done by these contribute back to Debian? Do things like MX Tools, Mint Tools get incorporated in Debian as well?
16:53 < dgurney> no
16:53 < oiaohm> dgurney: You are refering like ubuntu universe and PPA where there is not a proper MIA process.   Even so a large pool reduces how much a new person has to attempt to build from scratch.   I will give you proper QA on the maintainers and the mantaince status is a good thing.
16:54 < dgurney> I'm not referring to anything in specific...
16:54 < BCMM> CrazyTux: some work makes it back to Debian. perhaps not as much as should.
16:54 < CrazyTux> BCMM, ok
16:55 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: also those forks off debian that don't debian upstream don't  have access to like the free servers from HP that debian uses to run project wide QA and I don't know any of them another source of servers to run on going quality control.
16:56 < pepermuntjes> i find the ubuntu sources.list/ppa / etc. just confusing
16:56 < BCMM> CrazyTux: some of the derivatives see the value in actively working with Debian; some of them just wanna do their own thing
16:56 < pepermuntjes> and now also snap
16:56 < CrazyTux> BCMM, ok
16:57 < funksh0n> Hi all.
16:58 < helokki> pepermuntjes: yeah i found it confusing as well so i installed another distribution in the end
16:58 < funksh0n> Anyone know why dmenu_run is not respecting my $PATH?  rofi is fine with running scripts from /home/user/bin which is in my $PATH but dmenu_run is not.
16:58 < pepermuntjes> helokki, which one?
16:59 < CrazyTux> can I rely on this? https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major
16:59 < pepermuntjes> CrazyTux, no
16:59 < CrazyTux> pepermuntjes, why?
17:00 < helokki> pepermuntjes: arch
17:00 < jeffreylevesque> how can i see what a specific watchdog daemon is doing?
17:01 < pepermuntjes> CrazyTux, they are pushing Mint. but what is the advantage of Mint above ubuntu?
17:01 < Humatiel> CrazyTux: that is a reasonably accurate list give or take a couple
17:01 < CrazyTux> ok
17:01 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: https://lintian.debian.org/  https://piuparts.debian.org/  << running these things that debian does is quite resource consuming.
17:02 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: distrowatch is best guess.   Its really hard to get stats on Linux distribution usage.
17:02 < pepermuntjes> most companies i work for use centos/rhel
17:03 < Humatiel> after the first decade or so they all seem to bleed together anyway
17:04 < oiaohm> pepermuntjes: companies I deal with use centos rhel and scientific  for RPM stuff.
17:04 < SporkWitch> pepermuntjes: RHEL is popular because they offer paid support, which is desirable for companies.  CentOS gets used because it's an easy swap and the enterprise linux guys are most likely to already be familiar with RHEL, so if the company doesn't want to pay for RHEL, they go CentOS
17:05 < TyrfingMjolnir> Any command line tools for cleaning up my code?
17:05 < pepermuntjes> rm ?
17:05 < junka> rm
17:06 < BCMM> TyrfingMjolnir: what language?
17:06 < BCMM> TyrfingMjolnir: and do you mean formatting, indentation and whatnot? or fixing issues with the actual code?
17:06 < CrazyTux> which distro is suggested if one wants to manage everything in the OS with gui tools only. The distros has to be secure and stable as well.
17:06 < TyrfingMjolnir> I do NodeJS, BASh, c, objc, cpp, swift
17:07 < oiaohm> SporkWitch: scientific is like Centos maintained for supers and heavy maths stuff.  https://www.scientificlinux.org/  so its also a easy swap over from RHEL.
17:07 < Psi-Jack> TyrfingMjolnir: Question is too minimal. Provide more details such as language, what you're looking to accomplish, etc/
17:07 < pepermuntjes> CrazyTux, ubuntu 18.04
17:07 < SporkWitch> oiaohm: i see that as less of the reason compared to the fact that it's a highly specalized tool and also happens to be one of the best tools for that particular job
17:07 < TyrfingMjolnir> BCMM: I would like to change all function info(user,tz){}
17:08 < TyrfingMjolnir> to function info( user, tz ) {}
17:08 < TyrfingMjolnir> For one
17:08 < TyrfingMjolnir> To increase legibility
17:08 < SporkWitch> TyrfingMjolnir: that's a question for your IDE
17:08 < TyrfingMjolnir> IDE?
17:08 < Kazdax> ubuntu would bea  good GUI OS
17:08 < hodapp> k
17:08 < BCMM> TyrfingMjolnir: it's something windows folk use for programming ;)
17:08 < pepermuntjes> CrazyTux, ubuntu 18.04 will be released in a couple days. Will be supported for years,.
17:08 < SporkWitch> Kazdax: maybe now that they've dropped unity
17:08 < BCMM> TyrfingMjolnir: seriously though, this might do what you want: http://uncrustify.sourceforge.net/
17:08 < SporkWitch> BCMM: not just windows people; vim is my IDE :)
17:08 < CrazyTux> ok
17:09 < hodapp> BCMM: it's not just Windows folks, but also people who rely on certain programming languages that aren't known for their compactness, perhaps to make a living
17:09 < TyrfingMjolnir> SporkWitch: How to do this in vim?
17:09 < Psi-Jack> SporkWitch: What's integrated about it? ;p
17:09 < BCMM> TyrfingMjolnir: haven't checked if it specifically does the stuff you want, but it has enough options that it can probably be set up that way
17:09 < TyrfingMjolnir> vim is not an IDE, however vim in combination with i3wm or tmux may or may not be an IDE
17:09 < oiaohm> SporkWitch: scientific almost builds a complete RHEL in fact more complete than Centos.   Supers require quite a general OS.
17:09 < SporkWitch> Psi-Jack: the plugins that add extras that aren't built-in :P
17:09 < hodapp> the "vim is my IDE" meme should probably go be left in 1997 or so
17:10 < Psi-Jack> hodapp++
17:10 < SporkWitch> hodapp: why? it's still an excellent, fit-for-purpose tool
17:10 < Psi-Jack> SporkWitch: Yet, lacks the integrated part entirely.
17:10 < hodapp> SporkWitch: sure, it has purposes, it just happens that it misses most purposes of most IDEs
17:10 < SporkWitch> Psi-Jack: without plugins you're right; with plugins there's nothing a "proper" IDE does that it doesn't
17:11 < SporkWitch> Psi-Jack: which is the joke
17:11 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: I have not found a Linux distribution that you can fully do everything from GUI at some point you have to drop to out of GUI to fix things.
17:11 < hodapp> SporkWitch: yes, and with plugins there's nothing a bucket of sand does that your CPU doesn't.
17:11  * SporkWitch pats hodapp on the head
17:11 < CrazyTux> oiaohm, ok
17:11 < hodapp> if we're allowing arbitrary levels of configuration and setup
17:11 < SporkWitch> in any case, if you don't like the tongue-in-cheek answer of vim, there's also eclipse, android studio, and many others, which are not just windows
17:12 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: even windows with printers playing up and the like you can not stay 100 percent in GUI.
17:12 < BCMM> TyrfingMjolnir: if it doesn't do what you want, then beautifier, prettifier or formatter are all decent search terms
17:12 < hodapp> if you're stuck in Java, NetBeans and IntelliJ are favorites of many
17:12  * TyrfingMjolnir has java allergies
17:12 < SporkWitch> if i'm forced to do java, i like eclipse+vrapper
17:12 < djph> SporkWitch: what's wrong with vim?
17:12  * Psi-Jack injects TyrfingMjolnir with some java and sits back watching the reactions. :)
17:12 < hodapp> plenty of folks appear to like VSCode from Microsoft
17:13 < hodapp> I've not used it
17:13 < SporkWitch> djph: nothing, just the usual kids whinging about the "vim is my ide" half-joke
17:13 < BCMM> TyrfingMjolnir: you'll probably want to look to multiple projects for different languages, or at least for the non-c-like ones
17:13 < TyrfingMjolnir> vim is the best text synthesizer I have ever used.
17:13 < hodapp> SporkWitch: I'm not a kid.
17:13 < Psi-Jack> hodapp: I actually, surprisingly, use it.
17:13 < dgurney> I briefly dabbled with vscode, it seems pretty good honestly
17:13 < rendar> i must have something misconfigured in my deban buster, i try to compile some C code whcih uses pread() pwrite() writev() and readv() functions, and gcc says they are not defined--that works fine on my raspberry, any clues?
17:13 < Psi-Jack> SporkWitch: Kids?
17:13 < oiaohm> CrazyTux: I value package stablity and ablity to install and remove packages cleanly more than GUI interface.    Long term you can learn the extras to do command line maintaince.   Long term poor quality packages become real computer productivity limitation.
17:13 < djph> SporkWitch: well, there's always emacs if you hate the vide
17:14 < SporkWitch> TyrfingMjolnir: regardless of editor, all you need is a search-and-replace to make the change you want; make sure you cover every file, though unless using a plugin or IDE that will let you refactor across multiple files
17:14 < TyrfingMjolnir> vim is for all your text synthesizes, notes from university, writing a book, writing a play, it also works when writing code.
17:14 < noodlepie> Linux 4.16.3-gentoo rebuilt and running
17:14 < TyrfingMjolnir> SporkWitch: sed is a nice option I gather.
17:14 < TyrfingMjolnir> But it does not do context.
17:14 < doolDune> is it worth trying void linux? can i use it as my daily driver?
17:15  * noodlepie is a Gentoo nut - and Debian on older machines! :P
17:15 < Psi-Jack> doolDune: No. No.
17:15 < BCMM> SporkWitch: that is 100% wrong, regarding search and replace
17:15 < SporkWitch> TyrfingMjolnir: sure
17:15 < dgurney> yes, it's always worth trying things
17:15 < dgurney> and yes, you could if it has everything you need available
17:15 < BCMM> SporkWitch: don't try and write regexps that understand C.
17:15 < hodapp> there is far more to refactoring than search and replace
17:15 < TyrfingMjolnir> I need something that ties into the AST
17:15 < SporkWitch> BCMM: for his specific question, yeah, it's a pretty simple search and replace
17:16 < doolDune> @Psi-Jack why not?
17:16 < Psi-Jack> doolDune: Because, it's a void. You know what a void is, right?
17:17 < hodapp> SporkWitch: yeah, aside from the fact of completely ignoring that the matching needs to handle a bit more of the syntax if it's actually going to properly distinguish similarly-named things or things that are prefixes of other valid names
17:17 < WishBoy> noodlepie Lubuntu is good for old machines
17:17 < BCMM> TyrfingMjolnir: huh, apparently GNU Indent is not only for applying GNU-style formatting...
17:18 < TyrfingMjolnir> Actually I would like this: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjJkdPQ2NDaAhUmAZoKHaTlCucQFjAAegQIABAq&url=https%3A%2F%2Fftp.gwdg.de%2Fpub%2Fmisc%2Fftp.idsoftware.com%2Fidstuff%2Fdoom3%2Fsource%2FCodeStyleConventions.doc&usg=AOvVaw2wr17K1QyPFckHGh7jmVuq
17:18 < SporkWitch> hodapp: if that's what you need to tell yourself
17:18 < TyrfingMjolnir> https://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/misc/ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/doom3/source/CodeStyleConventions.doc
17:18 < TyrfingMjolnir> The first link is just garble from google
17:18 < hodapp> SporkWitch: do you actually have a rebuttal to anything I said or are you just going to reply with vacuous, condescending cliches?
17:19 < hodapp> you didn't even bother to compose your own; you recycled one from a bloody '90s sitcom
17:19 < SporkWitch> hodapp: there's nothing to rebutt, you aren't addressing the problem at hand, you're just cranky and out of the loop
17:19 < hodapp> there's a certain irony in being called "out of the loop" from someone who keeps pushing vim and recycling remarks from '90s sitcoms.
17:20 < noodlepie> WishBoy, I try not to use the flshy - ocustom desktop distros as they are just toys. If you need a package for the desktop an open one would suit
17:20 < hodapp> and yes, there is something specific at hand to rebut: that you should not be using simple search-and-replace and calling it "refactoring", and I just told you why not
17:21 < WishBoy> noodlepie not bad
17:21 < noodlepie> "Penguins can see through windows!"
17:21 < SporkWitch> hodapp: i didn't; you did
17:21 < WishBoy> "Penguins can see through windows!"
17:21 < WishBoy> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
17:21 < noodlepie> WishBoy, not bad what?
17:22 < hodapp> SporkWitch: it's exactly what you just advocated.
17:22 < hodapp> SporkWitch: if you're not even going to pay attention to the discussion at hand you should probably just leave for a bit and take a breather.
17:22 < SporkWitch> hodapp: it is not, but we already knew you have issues with reading comprehension
17:22 < hodapp> SporkWitch: this is what I'm talking about.
17:22 < SporkWitch> hodapp: yes, it's clear you haven't paid attention to the discussion, because you're busy trying to argue
17:23  * noodlepie pokes WishBoy 
17:24 < jim> ok ok SporkWitch ignore hodapp and hodapp ignore SporkWitch, maybe take it off in half an hour
17:24 < hodapp> SporkWitch: you have spent the last 5-10 minutes insulting me. just knock it off and go take a breather.
17:24  * WishBoy pokes noodlepie's nose
17:24 < SporkWitch> hodapp: in point of fact, you've done nothing but insult me; i'm merely pointing out the fact that you are strawmanning me and not addressing the actual issue the original questioner had
17:24 < dgurney> maybe consider what jim suggested?
17:24 < jim> YO, don't talk to each opther for awhiloe
17:25 < djph> SporkWitch: just let it go bud - would hate to see jim need to take action
17:25 < hodapp> SporkWitch: knock it off and go take a breather.
17:25 < SporkWitch> djph: i remember when this channel wasn't full of stupid :'(
17:25 < Psi-Jack> Now insulting the entire channel? :(
17:25 < djph> SporkWitch: it's IRC, I doubt that was ever the case.
17:25 < jim> hodapp, let it go... spork, you too
17:25 < hodapp> SporkWitch: passive-aggressive side-insults are included in that.
17:26 < noodlepie> WishBoy, What did you mean "not bad" before?
17:26  * noodlepie spares some booger slime to WishBoy 
17:26 <@jim> come on, I said -stop-
17:26 < hodapp> jim: and I agreed with you.
17:27 <@jim> good
17:27 < uplime> hrm, i need a new project to work on
17:27 < hodapp> uplime: hamburger earmuffs.
17:27 < uplime> oops, wrong buffer
17:27 < noodlepie> How much I like Linux computing is tied in popilarity with cooking. Yep, Free software is as important as food!
17:27 < uplime> hodapp: I was thinking of something as painful as possible
17:27 < hodapp> uplime: rewrite systemd in R.
17:27 < uplime> either a CA tool written in C, or a DNS client written in bash
17:27 <@jim> uplime, figure out jupyter notebooks
17:27 < uplime> i said painful, not likely to kil me
17:28 < hodapp> jim: I use Jupyter a good bit
17:28 < WishBoy> "WishBoy, I try not to use the flshy - ocustom desktop distros as they are just toys. If you need a package for the desktop an open one would suit" not bad your logical line of thought
17:28 < WishBoy> :>
17:28 < noodlepie> I'm practicing hypnosis -- "Yes yes, you will share your credit card details with me" :P
17:28 < uplime> jim: is that a computer?
17:28 < noodlepie> WishBoy, ah gotcha
17:28 < hodapp> jim: at least, if you meant Jupyter and not JupyterLab
17:28 <@jim> no iot
17:28 < uplime> ah
17:28 <@jim> s spftware
17:28 < WishBoy> G0TCH4!
17:28 < uplime> iot goes over my head
17:28 < noodlepie> Yeah, things like even Ming and Arch are fandangled 'proprietary' desktop shenanigans" Just stick with Gentoo and Debian and Jesus will Love you! :P
17:29 < hodapp> uplime: IoT is sorta silly. It's given us some neat technologies but mostly to me it's been 99% hype.
17:29 <@jim> donm't tease the poor op
17:29 < hodapp> resin.io is very cool, though.
17:29 < uplime> neat
17:29 < uplime> i think ill go with the dns client though
17:29 < noodlepie> God loves free software. The Message of His Son, Jesus Christ, is about Jesus being the "Messiah" or Messenger. This is techno through and through!
17:29 < hodapp> jim: did you have questions on Jupyter or were you just trying to torment uplime? :P
17:29 < WishBoy> noodlepie 4123 5412 4587 1457 - exp 12/2021 - cvv 659
17:29 < noodlepie> Being a Messiah requires you to be Open Source :P
17:29 < WishBoy> noodlepie Platinum
17:30 < SporkWitch> noodlepie: then why aren't you on TempleOS?
17:30 < hodapp> maybe he is.
17:30 < noodlepie> Ooh, it worked. Ok now eat an onion and pretend it's an apple!
17:30 < jim> hodapp, wanted to give him a project to play with
17:30 < BCMM> at this point "IoT" is one of those pointlessly abstract buzzwords like "cloud"
17:30  * noodlepie goes to check out TempleOS.. and then a smoke I think. ;P
17:30 < jim> iot was my typo for it
17:30 < noodlepie> found it. - reading...
17:30 < hodapp> BCMM: it means something, it's just that what it means isn't nearly as cool as people keep wishing
17:31 < SporkWitch> BCMM: you mean "devices with network access" and "other people's computers" ?
17:31 < BCMM> hodapp: they both *did* mean something
17:31 < noodlepie> Oooh Christianity-things. I like! :P
17:31 < hodapp> 'cloud' does still refer to something real, as hyped as it is; if you consider ~15 or even 10 years ago a whole lot of these technologies allowing you to very quickly provision resources online just weren't there
17:31 < BCMM> hodapp: before people decided that you basically have to work them in to your marketing material regardless of what your product is :)
17:32 < WishBoy> TempleOS have good GUI, better than MacOS
17:32 < WishBoy> remember me Minecraft
17:32 < WishBoy> Indie.
17:32 < hodapp> BCMM: that's just sort of the definition of marketing
17:32 < hodapp> they do that with every term
17:33 < rendar> i must have something misconfigured in my deban buster, i try to compile some C code whcih uses pread() pwrite() writev() and readv() functions, and gcc says they are not defined--that works fine on my raspberry, any clues?
17:33 < hodapp> rendar: are you trying to build something specific?
17:33 < hodapp> oh, you said that, nevermind
17:33 < hodapp> do you have a Makefile or are you issuing gcc commands directly?
17:33 < rendar> hodapp: my own database
17:34 < rendar> i have cmake+Makefile
17:34 < jim> rendar, you need the compile time stuff for them... what's pread/pwrite in?
17:34 < rendar> jim: POSIX apis?
17:34 < jim> well which lib
17:35 < hodapp> hmm if it's POSIX it may not be a lib you link to in the normal manner
17:35 < hodapp> may be some weird -f or something
17:35 < noodlepie> WishBoy, It looks funky
17:35 < noodlepie> but its offline
17:35 < noodlepie> no networking
17:35 < WishBoy> TempleOS is so lightweight, maybe i can run it on my air-conditioner controller
17:36 < jim> rendar, lots of dists will separate each lib into compiletime stuff and runtime stuff... the compiletime stuff go in libsomethingorother-dev
17:36 < jhodrien> pread/pwrite/writev are all part of libc.
17:36 < WishBoy> jhodrien why is "p"?
17:36 < WishBoy> jhodrien port read?
17:36 < rendar> what jhodrien said
17:36 < jim> you probably need libc6-dev
17:37 < rendar> libc6-dev is already the newest version (2.27-3).
17:37 < hodapp> libc6-dev probably only has headers
17:37 < hodapp> and he doesn't need headers if it's a linking issue he has
17:37 < jim> hmm
17:37 < jhodrien> Normally you'd expect the .so symlink to come from the dev package.
17:38 < hodapp> it's not complaining of a missing library though; that'd come in a different form
17:38 < hodapp> either different compile-time error or a runtime error if dynamically linked
17:38 < jhodrien> Not defined is exactly what you expect if you're not linking in what you need.  But serious, a C compiler not linking in libc by default?
17:38 < Psi-Jack> jhodrien: I wouldn't. I'd expect the .so symlink to come from the main packages, or lib* package itself.
17:38 < rendar> it's not packages
17:38 < rendar> it's headers!
17:39 < jhodrien> I'd expect the versioned one to come from the main package.
17:39 < rendar> it can't find C headers definition of that functins
17:39 < Psi-Jack> -dev should pretty much just be headers and development-required parts only.
17:39 < hodapp> rendar: oh, I believe I misread...
17:39 < jhodrien> The .so *is* dev only.
17:39 < Psi-Jack> jhodrien: No.
17:39 < jhodrien> Since anything compiled will require a versioned library.
17:39 < Psi-Jack> Wrong again. :?)
17:39 < hodapp> rendar: this is compile-time, not link time?
17:39 < jhodrien> So /lib64/libc.so gets provided by glibc-devel.
17:39 < jamtoast> unistd.h ?
17:40 < rendar> yes i include unistd.h
17:40 < rendar> hodapp: it's compile time, yes
17:40 < jim> and its still not defined?
17:40 < hodapp> rendar: sorry, I totally misread this
17:40 < hodapp> ignore all I said about libraries and linking
17:40 < rendar> jim: still not defined
17:41 < rendar> even defining X_OPEN_SOURCE 500
17:41 < noodlepie> WishBoy, https://www.google.com/search?q=Christian+Linux shows a few more!
17:41 < jim> ok
17:41 < hodapp> there is the very ugly method of grepping in /usr/include for pread >_>
17:41 < jim> sec
17:41 < jhodrien> hodapp: Involving for and nm?
17:41 < jhodrien> Oh sorry, include.
17:42 < WishBoy> http://ubuntuce.com/
17:42 < jhodrien> Psi-Jack: But seriously, when do you expect a *.so file to be part of a library package and not devel?
17:42 < Psi-Jack> jhodrien: 99% of the time.
17:42 < jhodrien> Admittedly I'm wearing my Redhat hat here, but almost never?
17:43 < noodlepie> WishBoy, and this... --> https://itsfoss.com/computers-christians-linux/
17:43 < jhodrien> *.so.* in lib, and *.so in devel, with ldconfig filling in the versioned symlinks inbetween.
17:44 < WishBoy> noodlepie this distribution can do harm to my computer, it likes heavy things
17:44 < WishBoy> noodlepie darkness things
17:44 < hodapp> jhodrien: binaries typically link to a versioned .so, whereas builds almost always are done to just the bare .so (in addition to requiring headers), correct?
17:45 < rendar> this is not a binary problem
17:45 < rendar> is a source files problem
17:45 < Psi-Jack> glibc-2.17-196.el7_4.2.x86_64 ld-2.17.so
17:45 < jhodrien> hodapp: The bare .so is normally just a symlink to the latest library, but yes.
17:45 < noodlepie> WishBoy, which distribution?
17:45 < jamtoast> rendar: what gcc version(s)?
17:45 < ||JD||> Those christians distros, do they come with a default jebus wallpaper?
17:45 < hodapp> jhodrien: yes, I just mean as far as what's passed in to ld
17:45 < noodlepie> I like the Light. Its the Eye of the Body
17:45 < rendar> 7.3.0-16
17:45 < jhodrien> hodapp: Yes.
17:45 < jhodrien> So if you're not building, you don't need the devel package, and you don't have foo.so on your system.
17:46 < Psi-Jack> nss-3.28.4-15.el7_4.x86_64 libssl3.so
17:46 < WishBoy> noodlepie http://ubuntusatanic.org/livecd.php
17:46 < Psi-Jack> jhodrien: .so is usually included in the main package, not -dev.
17:47 < noodlepie> I bought me a CBD-oil pipe from town the other day. Cost me 50 quid (UK pounds - $70) but its cool as heaven smokey!
17:47 < Psi-Jack> In CentOS/RHEL too.
17:47 < jhodrien> Not usually.
17:47 < jhodrien> libcap-ng
17:47 < Psi-Jack> yes, usually.
17:47 < noodlepie> WishBoy, steer clear of darkness looking only to the Light and you shall be saved!
17:47 < gurrkiin> am I more likely to find unzip or tar on a machine ?
17:47 < noodlepie> :)
17:47 < noodlepie> :p
17:47 < hodapp> uhhh, prolly tar
17:47 < gurrkiin> cool, cheers
17:47 < noodlepie> Actually the Light is fantastic protons and photons are simply wonderful
17:47 < noodlepie> .
17:47 < Psi-Jack> jhodrien: Most things link to their .so files, not a specifically versioned .so.X.Y
17:47 < hodapp> if one is missing (on a lighter system), it's probably unzip
17:47 < jhodrien> cd /usr/lib64; rpm -qf *.so|grep -v devel|sort|uniq|wc -l  "88"
17:48 < WishBoy> noodlepie Satan's phrase?
17:48 < jhodrien> rpm -qf *.so|grep devel|sort|uniq|wc -l  304
17:48 < jhodrien> So it's more devel than not on my desktop, but admittedly a lot more than I thought.
17:48 < jhodrien> Surely it *shouldn't* be in the lib package?
17:48 < noodlepie> God created Satan to batter naughty people
17:49 < noodlepie> So God could stay pure in Heaven (the Infinites beyond our Universe!) while they are dealt with.
17:49 < Psi-Jack> jhodrien: Only where things are related to development, and not commonly used libraries.
17:50 < jhodrien> But surely you *never* need the .so unless you build against it?
17:50 < Psi-Jack> jhodrien: Now, how many of those .so in devel are actually in /usr/lib64?
17:50 < Psi-Jack> jhodrien: Yes you do.
17:50 < jhodrien> All of them, because that's where I ran the rpm -qf.
17:50 < WishBoy> noodlepie you are philosophical today, what happened?
17:50 < Loshki> noodlepie: did you happen to notice which distro God was running?
17:50 < rumpel> TempleOS?
17:50 < WishBoy> nah
17:50 < jhodrien> Psi-Jack: When do you use unversioned libraries at runtime?
17:50 < Loshki> rumpel: heh
17:51 < WishBoy> TempleOS is for human
17:51 < rumpel> WishBoy, I doubt that. It's from another reality.
17:51 < BCMM> the stated objective of TempleOS is to talk to God, so it's hard to see why God would want to run it
17:52 < jhodrien> So I skim /bin, and sure enough sometimes you do.  Why?
17:52 < Psi-Jack> jhodrien: Hmm... Was jsut checking various binaries myself. Heh, seems that many things are now linking to .so.X these days.
17:53 < jhodrien> Sticking with your nss example, why do you have libssl3.so ?  Why's that one not versioned?
17:53 < horseface> i am trying to make my network load like, vpn, i2p, tor and i have got this in my tor override https://ptpb.pw/2mfF.conf and this in my i2p overwrite, https://ptpb.pw/wDQh.conf but it doesn;t load in this order, the vpn loads after the tor and i2p...
17:53 < horseface> can someone please help me..?!
17:53 < horseface> please
17:53 < jhodrien> (I'm thinking both of our assumptions are wrong here)
17:53 < junka> PLEASE
17:53 < hodapp> huh, I thought linking to versioned .so was quite common because version changes tended to break APIs
17:53 < WishBoy> god do not need templeOS to reply templeOS users, he uses QuantumOS and QuantumInternet, is directly atom communication
17:54 < Psi-Jack> jhodrien: because it's libssl3.so. :)
17:54 < Psi-Jack> Uh oh. Call the guards.
17:55 < WishBoy> https://newatlas.com/micius-quantum-internet-encryption/53102/
17:55 < WishBoy> https://www.inverse.com/article/40334-this-satellite-has-brought-a-global-scale-quantum-internet-one-step-closer
17:56 < uplime> *global* *quantam* *internet*!?!? is it serverless and in the cloud?
17:56 < hodapp> quantum computing is going to be here in the next 10 years
17:56 < hodapp> just like it has been for the last 30
17:56 < uplime> i prefer enterprise global quantam internet myself though
17:56 < WishBoy> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/18/china-great-leap-forward-science-research-innovation-investment-5g-genetics-quantum-internet
17:57 < WishBoy> THE FUTURE IS NOW!
17:57 < triceratux> future proves past
17:58 < giaco> hello! I need some help to get some information from a kernel crash. Is this the right channel to talk about this? Thank you
17:59 < Psi-Jack> .. Mayyyybe.. Won't know till you ask.
17:59 < WishBoy> I LOVE QUANTUM INTERNET, I CAN PLAY MY DOTA2, LEAGUE OF LEGENDS, FORTNITE, COUNTER-STRIKE:GLOBAL OFFENSIVE, PUBG, WITH 0.1NANOSECONDS <3 THANKS CHINA !
18:00 < Psi-Jack> Carefull with the SHOUTING, please.
18:01 < WishBoy> Psi-Jack oh, sorry sir... i was exalted
18:01 < noodlepie> God runs HeavenOS or, as its commonly called - The Holy Spirit
18:01 < Psi-Jack> WishBoy: You're lucky the spambot didn't evict you. :)
18:01 < noodlepie> His computer is the bigger one outdoors, what with Trees and Heaps and all...! :P
18:01 < WishBoy> Psi-Jack he loves me!
18:01 < BCMM> giaco: if the problem doesn't actually get in to kernel programming, this is probably as good a place as any
18:02 < giaco_> I have suddenly received in every console a log of kernel messages mangled with terminal process output. The system is still up. How can I read the error without any noise from the terminal?
18:02 < hodapp> it should be in dmesg
18:02 < hodapp> can dump it to a file and get at it later
18:03 < triceratux> giaco_: youll want to dump the kernel log & possibly the systemd log. what distro ?
18:03 < noodlepie> I was being Religious rather than Philosophical but whatever. I dig that too! :P
18:04 < noodlepie> Gawd bless you WishBoy
18:04 < WishBoy> Gawd?
18:04 < giaco__> excuse me, my wifi is unstable, now I'm wired.
18:04 < Psi-Jack> giaco__: You have been assimilated? ;)
18:04 < giaco__> triceratux: the distro is debian unstable
18:05 < triceratux> ah
18:05 < noodlepie> Gawd == God
18:05 < noodlepie> Yahweh :}
18:05 < Psi-Jack> No, gawd = gawd.
18:05 < noodlepie> It means "I Am who I Am"
18:06 < giaco__> triceratux: debian *testing*
18:06 < Psi-Jack> noodlepie: Umm.. In what universe?
18:07 < BCMM> noodlepie: Yahweh is one of the seven names of god. "I Am who I Am" is a translation of a *different* one of those seven names
18:08 < SporkWitch> the FSM forgives your blasphemy
18:08  * hodapp throws a bowl of lukewarm ramen at SporkWitch
18:08 < hodapp> don't be mad. I was baptizing you.
18:08 < triceratux> giaco__: run dmesg && journalctl --no-pager
18:08 < SporkWitch> jim: get rid of him or i won't be held accountable
18:08 < hodapp> it was a blessing!
18:09 < armin> A man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe.
18:09 < hodapp> armin: [citation needed]
18:09 < armin> Thomas Henry Huxley, in 1869.
18:09 < djph> Psi-Jack: I'm fairly certain that the tetragrammaton (JHVH -- NOW, NO THROWING ROCKS IF ANYONE SAYS JEHOVAH UNTIL I BLOW THIS WHISTLE!) is the transliteration of ... whatever hebrew means whatever he said.
18:09 < jim> SporkWitch, just ignore him :P
18:09 < armin> see the wikipedia article for "agnosticism".
18:10  * jelly throws a rock at djph 
18:10 < djph> Psi-Jack: but then again, I slept through most of my fantasy classes.
18:10 < SporkWitch> jim: can't do that, because then i can't correct misinformation spread to others, but if he continues to address me after you've told him not to, i will respond
18:10 < Psi-Jack> heh
18:10 < jim> either use the ignore func in your mind, or the one in your irc client (the former would be the more challenging)
18:11 < giaco__> triceratux: there's too much noise from the firewall (ufw) and I can't find the trace in there
18:11 < jim> SporkWitch, you're not responsible for that
18:11 < armin> where's the benefit in mental ignore if you actively want to, uhm, ignore someone?
18:11 < SporkWitch> jim: i'm just calling on you to enforce your own ruling
18:11 < triceratux> jelly: btw thanks for your attention the other day. i fixed my dns issue on extonos http://pastebin.centos.org/700351/raw/ 127.0.0.53 is simply a popcornworthy concept
18:11 < jim> (I remember that argument from a year ago)
18:11 < hodapp> triceratux: 127.0.0.53?
18:11 < giaco__> triceratux: got it!
18:12 < triceratux> giaco__: firewall noise is the worst ;)
18:12 < jim> SporkWitch, right now, I'm just trying to get you two to get along :P
18:13 < hodapp> jim: I'll refrain from references to the Flying Spaghetti Monster if that helps...
18:13 < jelly> triceratux: standards!  It's good to have so many!
18:13 < hodapp> just know that his noodly appendage touches you all.
18:13 < SporkWitch> jim: there's nothing to get along about; he's dishonest and you told us to stop talking to each other, and yet he continues to ping me.  You can deal with him or I can.
18:14 < BCMM> triceratux: "127.0.0.53 is simply a popcornworthy concept" do you have a link to some kind of resource explaining it?
18:14 < triceratux> jelly: configs ! if you dont like the one youve got symlink to something else !
18:14 < jelly> synlinks are there for a raisin
18:14 < BCMM> triceratux: i know it's a piece of systemd awfulness, but i can't for the life of me see *why* it's set up the way it is
18:14 < jim> ok, so the disconnect is that you feel responsible for the misinformation you say he's putting out
18:14 < hodapp> uhhh... what misinformation?
18:14 < jelly> sometimes the reason is as silly as "we want to have a working system with a read-only /etc"
18:15 < triceratux> BCMM: actually that url in the paste is pretty thorough https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1624320 google can tell you the rest pretttty fast
18:15 < jim> hodapp, I don't even know :)
18:15 < BCMM> triceratux: thanks
18:15 < hodapp> jim: I am, admittedly, not a very devout Pastafarian. I may have mangled some doctrine.
18:15 < SporkWitch> jim: misinformation is why i won't block people, dishonesty is why there's no "getting along," and i'm dragging you back into it because you explicitly told us not to talk to each other and he continues to address me including highlights
18:15 < triceratux> BCMM: it has something to do with local hostname resolution & playing nice with chrome. standard systemd
18:16 < jim> stop mangling doctors!
18:17 < giaco__> triceratux: I have isolated the trace from dmesg
18:17 < hodapp> triceratux: oh, I think I ran into a bug similar to this on a stock Ubuntu system that couldn't pass resolve names because it was using systemd's DNS by default and it reordered the normal entries instead of checking the first one first
18:19 < jim> hodapp, ok, sporkwitch is saying you're hiliting him... is that true?
18:19 < triceratux> hodapp: it only appears intermittently in certain ubuntu systems & derivatives. even in interim ubuntu releases theyve generally put a lid on it. its in fact quite rare to encounter
18:19 < hodapp> jim: not that I know of
18:19 < jim> ok
18:19 < hodapp> triceratux: that's good. I have a tendency to run into rare bugs though...
18:20 < jim> sporkwitch, :)
18:20 < jim> SporkWitch, he's saying he's not hiliting you
18:21 < SporkWitch> jim: [12:08:28] hodapp throws a bowl of lukewarm ramen at SporkWitch
18:21 < SporkWitch> jim: like i said, dishonest; dumb too, apparently, if he's going to lie with the logs right there
18:22 < jim> hodapp, stop throwing lukewarm bowls of ramen at sporkwitch!
18:22 < hodapp> the power of FSM compelled me.
18:23 < hodapp> triceratux: oddly enough it's rare for me to run Ubuntu on bare metal. I suppose inside of Docker or virtual machines the DNS is a lot cleaner so these issues don't show up
18:23 < hodapp> whereas I don't really know what my router is handing out for DNS nowadays...
18:23 < giaco__> triceratux: any hint? https://gist.github.com/arkanoid87/afdd10055fb5f7a07d6b3bade5b4c5a0
18:26 < triceratux> hodapp: yep my research suggested its probably more robust in qemu-kvm where 10.0.2.3 is the resolver. that would at least explain why extonos 18.4 shipped the way it did. havent confirmed it yet because it crashes the vm rofl
18:26 < hodapp> o_O
18:26 < jim> SporkWitch, you're -not- responsible for any action of others, including hodapp... please just ignore him... that's going to solve the heat problem
18:26 < SporkWitch> jim: i'd settle for you enforcing your ruling
18:27 < SporkWitch> jim: but if "ignore" is the solution, then you should have no problem with me responding; per your own statement, if he has a problem, he can ignore me
18:28 < jim> you can take it off in 10 mins -if- you think you can keep your responses in check
18:28 < hodapp> I don't have one.
18:28 < fendur> gee. this has been running for at least an hour
18:29 < hodapp> fendur: don't engage.
18:29 < jim> hodapp, just so you know, I run a dhcp server, and it hands out the dns I want it to
18:29 < fendur> trust me, not interested.
18:29 < hodapp> jim: I believe mine does too but I forget what DNS it's handing out
18:29 < jim> right, that's what you said
18:29 < hodapp> at one point I had it pointed to a BIND server on my LAN that had a blacklist of a whole mess of ad servers because I was having so much trouble with them
18:30 < ||JD||> jim: get both bitches in the mud and make them fight
18:30 < hodapp> right now it's probably just handing out 75 DNS servers from my ISP derpternet.com and only 2 of them work
18:30 < ||JD||> I'm going for popcorn in the meantime
18:30 < jim> btw, can you please ignore sporkwitch for awhile... and don't hilite him even as a joke
18:31 < Dagmar> Two feet of rope and a couple of broken bottles will solve this dilemna
18:31 < hodapp> this is your PSA: don't use Derpternet as your provider if you can avoid it
18:31 < jim> (unless you actually want to speak to him, but right now it's too heated)
18:31 < fendur> Dagmar: intact bottles of beer, man.
18:31 < triceratux> i run entirely from monolithic readonly isos so i can incur all the spoofing & mitm they can throw at me & not have to be a dns server admin
18:31 < BCMM> hodapp: i don't know if i've ever seen a network where the router is handing out the ISP's DNS server address on DHCP
18:32 < hodapp> BCMM: it is possible that I paid a monkey to set up parts of my network
18:32 < uplime> BCMM: ive lived in some places that do that
18:32 < hodapp> but that is not important
18:32 < BCMM> usually the default behaviour is for the router to give its own address and act as a proxy for the isp DNS
18:32 < BCMM> and people who change default behaviours don't keep ISP DNS servers
18:32 < Dagmar> BCMM: Yep, pretty much every consumer-level router on the market does it that way
18:32 < BCMM> (or at least, they don't do it here in the UK where NXDOMAIN hijacking is basically guaranteed)
18:33 < noodlepie> Psi-Jack, In all Universes, that's the point. Its dimensions are generic and flow out into the others, like Time! :P
18:33 < noodlepie> and space
18:34 < hodapp> oh, perhaps it was that it was also sending a bunch of IPv6 addresses in the process
18:34 < hodapp> I really don't know
18:34 < hodapp> it was only on Ubuntu that the issue showed up
18:36 < triceratux> giaco__: is that technically kali & did it happen a couple days ago without crashing the system ? yer lucky
18:37 < giaco__> triceratux: this crash happens sometimes
18:39 < giaco__> triceratux: do you have any idea where this is coming from?
18:42 < triceratux> giaco__: nope but google returns some bugreports. looks like its been encountered & may be hardware specific & has been looked at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1441906
18:43 < giaco__> triceratux: thank you for the insight
18:48 < TyrfingMjolnir> How can I print the opcode from a binary?
18:48 < TyrfingMjolnir> Like otool
18:48 < TyrfingMjolnir> But in linux command line
18:49 < hodapp> you want disassembly, basically?
18:50 < noodlepie> TyrfingMjolnir, Do you hace the C source code? If so you can compile to Assembler from that with gcc -s
18:50 < dag__> what is buffer cache. if i type "top" command there is a field that shows buff/cache
18:50 < noodlepie> Then just read the .s file
18:50 < TyrfingMjolnir> Yes
18:50 < Dagmar> dag__: Space used by IO buffers and caches
18:50 < TyrfingMjolnir> from bin/ls as an example
18:50  * Mistell furiously trying to figure out a way to take a webex from a tty
18:50 < TyrfingMjolnir> otool -tv /bin/ls I would write on MacOS
18:51 < hodapp> yes to me or to noodlepie?
18:51 < dag__> Dagmar: is it a disk cache or a ram cache?
18:51 < noodlepie> Or use hexdump to raed the hexadecimal, you can deduce opcodes from there if you are brave. gdb will also step through your app virtually so you can read the opcodes when you use gdb with your binary
18:51 < hodapp> x86 opcodes are fugly
18:51 < noodlepie> I Love ARM cpus
18:51 < TyrfingMjolnir> noodlepie: I'd use qira over gdb any day
18:51 < Dagmar> dag__: RAM.  You should try reading `man top`
18:52 < TyrfingMjolnir> I'm looking for a command line tool to output opcode
18:52 < TyrfingMjolnir> a bit like cat /bin/ls | xxd
18:52 < TyrfingMjolnir> Yet different
18:52 < noodlepie> I can code them in assembler, its a beautiful take on opcode mangling. Any op can set CPU flags on the value/status of the op, then any code can be made conditional on this FLAG update register. You don't have to cmp/jump all the time when running code so its much faster and it also helps with branch prediction and other superscalar efforts.
18:52 < noodlepie> :P
18:53 < hodapp> there is ndisasm
18:53 < Mistell> lol @ Top's man: 7d: The Ol' Switcheroo
18:54 < noodlepie> The original OS for ARM chips was RISCOS, which you can still run in an Acorn PC emulator. I wrote a 3d model viewer in full windowed glory with message passing voluntary multitasking with a 100% Assembler full screen view options. Actually RISCOS itself was written by Acorn as 100% assembler too, it was quite speedy dack in the day
18:54 < hodapp> noodlepie: you can run RISC OS on a Raspberry Pi on bare metal
18:55 < hodapp> ARM does stand for Acorn RISC Machine, after all
18:55 < noodlepie> Acron were still a proprietary software company so that sucks,
18:55 < noodlepie> acorn
18:56 < noodlepie> BASIC V on those machine was fun, it had Procedures and Functions and even Library interfaces. Back then this was trescool
18:56 < noodlepie> And it handled matrix multiplication well too which was necessary for the maths I used.
18:57 < noodlepie> I really enjoyed doing my school Computing project on the ARMs. I got it perfect in the end and got an "A" grade for the subject. Better than billy gates huh!
19:04 < triceratux> ruh roh https://cilium.io/blog/2018/04/17/why-is-the-kernel-community-replacing-iptables/
19:10 < jim> triceratux, it's already nftables; there is a translator that remains, to translate iptables rules to nftables rules
19:10 < hodapp> \o/ and I never learned iptables! Procrastinating for 15 years finally paid off!
19:10 < triceratux> ^^
19:10 < jml2> iptables is easy
19:11 < hodapp> well why would I go learn it now?
19:11 < jml2> the iptables command has adapted to using the nftable module things...
19:11 < i-make-robots> hi! I'm on my ubuntu box, trying to showmount -a [my nas ip].  nothing's showing up.  yesterday it was there.  afaik i didn't change the settings.  any idea what I missed?  definitely the correct ip address.
19:11 < jml2> (for quite some time)
19:11 < jml2> i-make-robots, if ya cant ping ya cant ding :)
19:12 < i-make-robots> i can ping it.
19:12 < i-make-robots> i can ssh to the box, too.
19:12 < jml2> i-make-robots, so check the error logs on it
19:12 < i-make-robots> and in the web console it says it is sharing paths.
19:12 < jml2> i-make-robots, smelly
19:13 < jim> i-make-robots, look at the mount point
19:13 < Mistell> lol jml2
19:14 < i-make-robots> var log messages says "refused mount request: no export entry" ?  will google it...
19:17 < pelle> hi, when I install GNU/Linux on my laptop, grub fails to load on startup. When I boot with grub from a usb-drive, I'm able to load the GNU/Linux system on the laptop, so the whole install is fine, apart from Grub. Any ideas how to make sure Grub is loaded on boot?
19:18 < djph> pelle: reinstall grub onto /dev/sda?
19:19 < pelle> @djph i've done that... except that the disk namings are a bit funny, it's /dev/mmblk0p1 and so on, and there's also a /dev/mmblk0boot0 and a /dev/mmblk0boot1
19:20 < pelle> also, the installer (for Debian, that is) freezes when loaded in UEFI mode ... only in BIOS/"legacy" mode will it start installing. but the install works totally fine once it's done, apart from the Grub.
19:20 < djph> should still be whatever the root device of those other devices is
19:20 < i-make-robots> jml2 - thanks for the suggestions. :)
19:20 < pelle> @djph i've tried, but it says "No bootable disk..." when started...?
19:20 < i-make-robots> i tried exportfs -r on the nas, still says it is available but nobody else can see it.  will reboot the nas.
19:21 < djph> isn't it exportfs -a ?
19:28 < jml2> i-make-robots, can you contact the nas with rpcinfo ?
19:34 < jml2> Pelle`, you pelle?
19:35 < jml2> i think with uefi the grub option in installers need to be specified to a partition and not the disk.. I think i saw this recently with ubuntumate
19:35 < jml2> (the efi partition)
19:40 < Psilocyber> does anyone know of a PCIe USB 3.0 card that can work in linux (ie you have personally used it)
19:41 < SporkWitch> seems pretty generic, would think you'd have a harder time finding one that doesn't
19:41 < Psilocyber> The ones by Startech are garbage, wouldn't work in linux, xhci puked when you plugged in any USB, using supported kernel too
19:41 < Psilocyber> then another startech, the capacitor blew up
19:41 < hodapp> o_O
19:42 < SporkWitch> sounds like a startech issue lol
19:42 < hodapp> yeahhhh, doesn't sound like stellar quality
19:42 < Psilocyber> yep, wondering if anyone can vouch for another line
19:43 < SporkWitch> Psilocyber: any name brand the doesn't sound like a chinese knockoff? lol
19:43 < Psilocyber> lol hey startech isn't THAT cheap
19:44 < Dr_Coke> sex
19:44 < Dr_Coke> I mean
19:45 < Dr_Coke> Hi
19:45 < Dr_Coke> My brain is fried from learning code
19:45 < SporkWitch> Psilocyber: i've never looked for that specific part, so i don't know who makes them off the top of my head, but for GPUs and memory, at least, pny and kingston are my usual go-tos
19:48 < noodlepie> I like error correcting codes and genes
19:50 < triceratux> hrm got extonos lxqt 18.04 to boot in a qemu-kvm. no it cant ping google.com the way its shipped even with 10.0.2.3 on its side. theres simply no explanation
20:02  * sauvin makes a discovery: when elixir says it can interoperate with erlang, it isn't kidding.
20:04 < lupine> well, it is erlang, more or less
20:04 < lupine> just with shinier syntax
20:04 < ledtc> Q: I need to run a Python script on start up inside a tmux. Please help.
20:07 < jml2> my database is not replicating. gddmit.
20:07  * jml2 pulls out some hair
20:07 < diogenese> play some barry white
20:07 < lupine> I'm looking for something that *like* a bind mount, but that happens to work inside docker containers. probably doesn't work
20:07 < lupine> exist*
20:08 < sauvin> What's also blowing my mind is that when I recompile something, the erlang shell I'm in automatically loads up the new defs.
20:08 < lordvadr> ledtc: Look at the source-file directive for tmux.conf.
20:12 < triceratux> lupine: just a guess but squashfs ?
20:16 < lupine> triceratux: we're dealing with several TiB of data on the source side, so squashfs wouldn't be an option. maybe overlay...
20:16 < lupine> but at 3.18, maybe a bit too new
20:17 < recyclops> lupine: Maybe I misunderstand the question, but have you tried named volumes?
20:18 < lupine> the bind is being set up by a process running inside the docker container
20:18 < lupine> the same code is running in docker and non-docker contexts and wants to look like a jail
20:25 < mawk> a
20:26 < ejr> does anybody know of a tool for linux that allows me to download a given link to a website plus all the pages that the links on that website link to?
20:26 < solidfox> google does that
20:26 < mawk> something that like a bind mount lupine ?
20:26 < solidfox> ejr,
20:26 < mawk> bind mounts work inside docker containers, as far as I know
20:26 < jhaenchen> that's called a web crawler ejr
20:26 < mawk> you just have to be careful
20:27 < solidfox> ejr, you can do a google search for site:thesite.con
20:27 < mawk> eg, binding before recursively setting / as private in the new mount namespace
20:27 < noodlepie> Free Music Moment here on #Linux and it looks like you can get all your favorite music of any genre from http://www.freemusicarchive.com./ and http://libre.fm./ The latter uses and develops GNU Radio for its playlists
20:27 < mawk> and before chrooting etc
20:27 < mawk> wget ejr
20:29 < lupine> mawk: they work inside of privileged containers
20:29 < lupine> I can't find a way to get it to work inside an unprivileged container
20:29 < mawk> well that way exists
20:29 < mawk> if you don't find the way you can totally modify docker
20:29 < lupine> looks like it's a kernel restriction actually
20:29 < ejr> solidfox: that only shows them in the web browser; i want to download the linked pages and save them locally
20:29 < mawk> what ?
20:29 < mawk> no
20:29 < lupine> seems to be a permission thing when you're using user namespaces
20:29 < mawk> you can first make a mount namespace, then turn it into unprivileged
20:30 < mawk> in the meantime you can bind whatever you want
20:30 < solidfox> mawk, who are you talking to
20:30 < mawk> to solidfox
20:30 < mawk> uh
20:30 < mawk> to lupine *
20:30 < solidfox> huh weird. I don't remember why I ignored that user.
20:30 < mawk> lupine: you mean the userns_unprivileged_clone thingie ? it's somehow related but it's not that
20:30 < lupine> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/fs/namespace.c#n1056
20:31 < solidfox> ejr, I'm not sure how to get each link with wget, but wget would download the specified page.
20:31 < lupine> I think, anyway
20:31 < lupine> TBH I try to avoid docker as much as I can :p
20:31 < mawk> that doesn't apply to the situation where you bind before turning into unprivileged, lupine
20:32 < mawk> as far as I can see
20:32 < ejr> solidfox: yes, i have already checked wget and curl, but there seems to be no way to download links with them recursively
20:32 < ejr> there is a recursive option, but unreliable
20:32 < lupine> right, I'm not doing that. it's a docker container containing about 1GiB of interrelated junk, and one of those bits of junk now does a bind mount on startup
20:32 < mawk> if you first unshare the mount points, bind whatever you want, then unshare the user namespace the mount points won't go away
20:32 < solidfox> ejr, you could wget the furst page. curl it too, and parse the output to find href="" pattern. then wget and curl that link.
20:33 < kope> hi , what is best cheap web hosting?
20:33 < solidfox> first*
20:33 < lupine> life is suffer :D
20:33 < solidfox> kope, you could host yourself
20:33 < mawk> you can try to join the mount namespace without joining the user namespace, lupine
20:33 < ejr> solidfox: yes, i thought of something like that too. just found a script on github that seems promising
20:33 < ejr> but thanks for the advice
20:33 < kope> solidfox, nah i want online one
20:33 < mawk> using nsenter -m /proc/$PID/ns/mnt
20:33 < solidfox> kope, that's what I meant. put your own self online by yourself.
20:33 < mawk> then you'll be in the mount namespace without being in an unprivileged setup
20:34 < mawk> I'm sure you can bind stuff that way
20:34 < lupine> hmm. it has the advantage of sounding like nothing I've tried so far :D
20:34 < mawk> lol
20:34 < mawk> but of course it won't have the right UID, everything will be read only, I think
20:34 < mawk> you'd have to go further to turn it read-write
20:34 < mawk> hm no forget what I said
20:34 < mawk> it will work as intended
20:34 < solidfox> kope, I have used a good host before. let me try to remember the name.
20:35 < mawk> if the outside user that possesses the bound directory is the same as root inside the container, for instance
20:35 < mawk> typically some uid in the 10000000 range or something
20:36 < kope> cuz ill use this https://github.com/CTFd/CTFd , so i need best host for it
20:36 < solidfox> kope, 000webhost is totally not secure btw. they used my plaintext password in a url before. and email it to me too
20:37 < pepermuntjes> why not use digitial ocean?
20:37 < pepermuntjes> *digital
20:37 < solidfox> kope, the best way IMO is actually to run your own dedicated webserver and then just punch a hole in your router
20:37 < Psi-Jack> Why not vultr? Why not aws? Why not *?
20:38 < pepermuntjes> the important thing is
20:38 < pepermuntjes> the distro you are going to pick
20:38 < kope> pepermuntjes, did you use digital ocean before?
20:38 < pepermuntjes> kope, yes, not a single complaint
20:38 < pepermuntjes> before that on ramnode, but they were slow sometimes
20:38 < kope> pepermuntjes, can i pm you?
20:38 < pepermuntjes> sure
20:41 < Psi-Jack> Course, I used to use Digital Ocean myself, waited for a year or two for them to come out with block storage growth options, but never did. So I switched off to AWS.
20:42 < pepermuntjes> Psi-Jack, now you can say you got AWS experience, instant 1000$ raise
20:42 < mawk> lol
20:43 < Psi-Jack> pepermuntjes: I'm a DevOps Engineer.
20:43 < Psi-Jack> AWS DevOps Engineer.
20:44 < mawk> to manipulate tun device from the host side, the only way is through the character device ?
20:44 < mawk> isn't there some more efficient way to do it ?
20:47 < recyclops> Digital ocean is good for a quick and simple vps
20:50 < pepermuntjes> yeah, and you pay by the horu
20:50 < pepermuntjes> by the hour
20:50 < jml2> Psi-Jack, you're a DevOOPS
20:51 < ledtc> I cant get this .sh script to run at start up, whats the correct way to do it ? rc-local.d wont handle it
20:51 < pepermuntjes> senior Devoops
20:51 < Psi-Jack> jml2: Noo, YOUUUUU.
20:52 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, make it a systemd service?
20:52 < pepermuntjes> https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-automatically-execute-shell-script-at-startup-boot-on-systemd-linux
20:53 < jml2> kope, you can get some nice hosting with ovh (soyoustart.com) -- cheap :)
20:53 < jml2> kope, they're imho good because they host alot of distro mirrors.
20:53 < jml2> kope, (and they're known to officially support distro mirrors)
20:54 < pepermuntjes> but not gbit
20:54 < pepermuntjes> 250 Mbps
20:54 < jml2> kope, if you want something newbie and imho a ripoff, you can go with aws.
20:55 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, its just really confusing that tutorial :7
20:55 < mawk> I was there before jml2
20:56 < mawk> they once shutdown my vps when I dared have 100% CPU usage for a bit too long
20:56 < jml2> mawk, i prefer dedicated hosting (true hardware) and it's very cost effective with ovh imho.. i hate shared vps things..
20:57 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, other method:
20:57 < pepermuntjes> Edit /etc/crontab as superuser and add a line
20:57 < pepermuntjes> @reboot     root    /path/to/testScript.sh
20:58 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, hmm that sound better
20:59 < pepermuntjes> OK, But some caveats here.
20:59 < mawk> I went with Online for dedicated servers jml2
20:59 < pepermuntjes> Only works after a reboot. If you do a shutdown, or if the box crashes (as in plug vs vacuum) …. and then start, it doesn’t get run.
21:00 < mawk> now I have something like 8 cores @ 3.30GHz, 32 GiB of RAM, for 30€/month
21:02 < twainwek> wut. i see no such plans
21:02 < mawk> for online ? it was a sale
21:02 < Intruder777> hi. I'm trying to run some script using crontab at @reboot time. That script relies on $PATH, but it looks like during @reboot time the PATH only has "/usr/bin:/bin". So what is a sophisticated way to make script run at @reboot and have full $PATH?
21:02 < mawk> it's maybe 40 or 45 for the real price
21:03 < jml2> Intruder777, is it for your desktop?
21:03 < Ben64> Intruder777: fix it to use full paths
21:03 < Intruder777> no, it's for server
21:03 < pepermuntjes> put PATH=/adsf:/adsf?ads   in the script?
21:04 < twainwek> i see E3-1230 quadcore 3.3 GHZ 32GB ddr3 for $30
21:04 < Ben64> twainwek: where?
21:04 < jml2> Intruder777, then why not dedicate a service unit for it?
21:04 < twainwek> Ben64: https://oneprovider.com/dedicated-servers/paris-france ... and by $ i meant the european one
21:05 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, i did @reboot root /home/tidsrapport/startTidsrapport.sh but it dosnt work at all i dont know why
21:05 < Ben64> ovh reseller?
21:05 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, is the file executable?
21:05 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, yes i tested the command
21:06 < pepermuntjes> what does is says if you do: ls -halp /home/tidsrapport/startTidsrapport.sh
21:06 < Intruder777> Ben64: pepermuntjes: jml2: it's actually a python script, so there are some python libs which implicitly rely on some binaries in PATH
21:06 < mawk> twainwek: the Store-1-S is close to what I have
21:06 < mawk> mine has a Xeon E3-1230
21:06 < jml2> Intruder777, so the header should be !#/bin/<path to python bin>
21:07 < mawk> also 2×2TiB
21:07 < pepermuntjes> Intruder777, create a bash script that exports the PATH and then runs the python script?
21:07 < Intruder777> jml2: how does that help? the script looks for something in /usr/local/bin
21:07 < Intruder777> jml2: well, not the script itself, but some libs
21:08 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 52 Apr 23 14:33 /home/tidsrapport/startTidsrapport.sh
21:08 < Intruder777> pepermuntjes: and is there a way to kind of wait until $PATH gets populated with all the items?
21:08 < jml2> Intruder777, well a server barely should ever need to be rebooted, so why not just call it manually just once?  does your host provider suffer a lot from power failure?
21:08  * jml2 XD
21:08 < pepermuntjes> Intruder777,   #!/bin/bash,  export PATH=your path,  python scriptname
21:08 < Ben64> Intruder777: path doesn't get 'populated'
21:08 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, do you only have an encrypted home directory? In that case, move your script to unencrypted space.
21:09 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, i did not check encrypt when i installed gallium but i do have a password to login ?
21:10 < Intruder777> Ben64: ok, bad wording. so basically when I login as user in a bash I see that PATH is /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/home/user/dotnet:/var/lib/snapd/snap/bin:/home/user/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin
21:11 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, what does cron log say?
21:11 < jml2> Intruder777, a normal user shouldn't have access to sbin things...
21:11 < Intruder777> but from inside script which runs during @reboot - the PATH is only /usr/bin:/bin
21:11 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, /var/log/cron i think
21:11 < jml2> Intruder777, sounds like you're muddling things in one pack
21:12 < pepermuntjes> Intruder777,   #!/bin/bash,  export PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/home/user/dotnet:/var/lib/snapd/snap/bin:/home/user/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin, python scriptname
21:12 < pepermuntjes> wouldn't that work?
21:12 < Intruder777> jml2: that's not the point. the point is that when you login via ssh in a bash shell - the PATH has /usr/local/bin , but during @reboot time - there PATH is only /usr/bin:bin
21:13 < jml2> Intruder777, it's crude and you're using crontab, a sane way for bash and its external calls can work better is if you use the env in the header of the script -> #!/usr/bin/env /bin/bash
21:13 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, Apr 23 14:58:12 tree CRON[544]: (valdt) CMD (/home/tidsrapport/startTidsrapport.sh)
21:13 < jml2> Intruder777, it's because the line is called from cron which is trying to run the script with "sh" at the front of it
21:13 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, Apr 23 15:01:05 tree CRON[533]: (root) CMD (root /home/tidsrapport/startTidsrapport.sh)
21:14 < Intruder777> pepermuntjes: what if I don't know what the $PATH would be? I just want it to be the same as when I do interactive login
21:14 < mawk> I've had a program idea, does it already exist ? some wrapper around make install that records where the files are installed, to be able to uninstall the program afterwards
21:14 < jml2> Intruder777, i answered that
21:14 < Intruder777> jml2: aha, I see. So I just need to make it a bash script wrapper?
21:15 < jml2> Intruder777, PATH= can be set for "sh" environments, and you can set a default in the crontab file, but then you need bash, instead use that "env" line as the header and define PATH= inside the script
21:15 < jml2> Intruder777, "#!/usr/bin/env /bin/bash" in the script header
21:15 < jml2> Intruder777, if bash is what you're using..
21:15 < Intruder777> jml2: will that line help to have the 'full' PATH?
21:16 < Intruder777> because I know I can define PATH= but I want to avoid it
21:16 < jml2> Intruder777, so use PATH= inside your .sh script
21:16 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, it looks like the script gets runned?
21:16 < Intruder777> jml2: but I don't know what to put after equality sign
21:16 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, yeah im thinking about that aswell, thou tmux ls returns empty
21:16 < Intruder777> jml2: I just want it to be same as fro bash
21:17 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, does the file get accessed? you can see it if tyou type: stat /home/tidsrapport/startTidsrapport.sh
21:17 < jml2> Intruder777, is this for work?
21:17 < jml2> Intruder777, I wonder how anyone can hire you
21:18 < Intruder777> jml2: personal stuff
21:18 < |ll|l|ll||l> mawk: use DESTDIR and move files after you log them
21:18 < jml2> Intruder777, learn how to script first and how bash works before trying to go over the roof with things
21:19 < pepermuntjes> In the crontab, before you command, add . $HOME/.profile. For example:
21:19 < pepermuntjes> 0 5 * * * . $HOME/.profile; /path/to/command/to/run
21:20 < Intruder777> jml2: my question is: how can I get the same full $PATH at @reboot time from crontab which I'm having during shell login?
21:20 < pepermuntjes> Intruder777, read https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/27289/how-can-i-run-a-cron-command-with-existing-environmental-variables
21:20 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, The acess logged date and time dosn't change on reboot
21:20 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, in stat
21:20 < jml2> Intruder777, the cron scheduler doesn't use bash
21:21 < jml2> Intruder777, you wouldn't understand anything even if I tried to explain it to you, because "sh" is not bash...
21:21 < jml2> (/bin/sh persay)
21:22 < mawk> it doesn't always use that |ll|l|ll||l
21:22 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, how is the Tit reporting script going?
21:23 < mawk> also some programs hardcode the prefix in the program source code, no ?
21:23 < Intruder777> jml2: I do understand. so those shells have different env variables right? looks like pepermuntjes posted a link to one of the possible solutions
21:23 < mawk> anyway my idea is somewhat similar |ll|l|ll||l , it was to use an overlay file system and record the changes
21:23 < |ll|l|ll||l> that's what --prefix is for, but some programs are ignorant of these things
21:24 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, tmux new-session -d -s flask 'sudo python3 main.py'
21:25 < Intruder777> pepermuntjes: thanks, seems to be what I need
21:26 < |ll|l|ll||l> the most annoying thing i see is rpath leaking build directory structure
21:26 < |ll|l|ll||l> often
21:27 < jml2> mawk, qemu-nbd it able to do that with an off-line persistence cache file iirc
21:28 < pepermuntjes> I have a motto for you jml2: "i'm going to help you, but ya better know i'm superior"
21:28 < jml2> pepermuntjes, go back to your quest on "tit" reporting
21:28 < jml2> pepermuntjes, noob
21:28 < jml2> :)
21:29 < pepermuntjes> tits don't report themselve
21:29 < uplime> jml2 | Intruder777, the cron scheduler doesn't use bash
21:29 < uplime> I mean, it can be
21:29 < jml2> here I use qemu-nbd occassionally. and I know it's great.  Made a VM guest into a physical setup.
21:29 < jml2> uplime, by default it isn't the case
21:29 < ayecee> stand clear,internet argument in progress
21:29 < uplime> jml2: correct
21:29 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, sudo crontab -e right ?
21:29 < jml2> uplime, you can set anything to use any shell.
21:30 < uplime> erm, no
21:30 < uplime> you can set certain software to use certain shells, suer
21:30 < uplime> sure*
21:30 < jml2> uplime, but I don't know "what else" is in his crontab list. so better he not mess with that.
21:30  * jml2 digresses from nonsense.
21:30 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, thats edits the crontab for the user you currently logged in as
21:30 < pepermuntjes> but /etc/crontab is more general
21:30 < ledtc> pepermuntjes,  ohh...
21:31 < Intruder777> uplime: yea, I already know that thanks to jml2 :)
21:31 < ledtc> sooo sudo nano /etc/crontab
21:31 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, ^
21:31 < Intruder777> so pepermuntjes posted possible workaround: to launch $HOME/.profile before the script itself
21:31 < pengui> How can you get a list of files in a directory and create the same filename but with different extension?
21:31 < pepermuntjes> ledtc, that looks fine yeah
21:32 < jml2> pengui, is that practical?
21:32 < pengui> jml2: I don't understand
21:32 < pepermuntjes> pengui, lemme me make it for you
21:33 < jml2> pengui, I suppose possibly with "find" and xargs. and using $1
21:33 < uplime> pengui: for file in ./*; do newfile=${file%.*}.new_extension_here; touch "$newfile"; done
21:33 < jml2> no I think he wants files only
21:33 < pepermuntjes> --type f
21:34 < uplime> jml2: then just add the extension of the file to the ./*
21:34 < uplime> or use [/[[ to test the filetype
21:34 < pengui> uplime: I think thats what im looking for let me try it
21:34 < uplime> pengui: it assumes that the extension only lasts for one dot. if its more it will need to be modified
21:34 < pepermuntjes> wouldn't this be better to do with a read line construction?
21:35 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, Nope it just wont run
21:35 < uplime> ie, .tar.gz -> .tar.new_extension_here is what it would currently do
21:35 < uplime> pepermuntjes: what do you mean a read line construction?
21:35 < uplime> while read -r?
21:35 < pepermuntjes> with input redirection yeah
21:35 < ledtc> pepermuntjes, i put the script in the crontab ?
21:36 < uplime> i mean, i wouldn't say its better in this case. it would require at least one fork
21:36 < mawk> what's the workdir in overlayfs for ?
21:36 < uplime> and its iffy anyways unless you're using \0 delimited input
21:36 < pepermuntjes> uplime, < <(command)
21:36 < uplime> pepermuntjes: right, but thats still iffy
21:36 < uplime> and requires more forks
21:36 < mawk> why do you do that pepermuntjes ?
21:36 < mawk> and not a pipe
21:36 < mawk> command |
21:37 < uplime> if you want to set a variable in a while loop then you would use < <() over |
21:37 < uplime> if you use | it will disappear
21:38 < pepermuntjes> touch "$newfile"   <--- what if the orginal file name has a dangerous name like  "; rm -rf /home .exe"
21:38 < uplime> pepermuntjes: then it has that name
21:38 < uplime> nothing dangerous happens
21:39 < gronke> how would I add flags onto an ExecStart of a systemd service?
21:39 < mawk> flags ?
21:39 < uplime> although filenames can't have a / in them anyways
21:39 < mawk> ExecStart=/path/to/binary --flag --flag
21:41 < gronke> mawk, I have it running ExecStart=/usr/local/apps/galaxy/run.sh, I tried adding a flag to a log file as shown here: https://docs.galaxyproject.org/en/latest/admin/production.html but the service failed to run
21:41 < tpanarch1st> hi, what would be the command to get the total memory installed in a linux box please? Would it be (dmidecode)
21:41 < mawk> shown where exactly ?
21:42 < pepermuntjes> tpanarch1st,    free -h
21:42 < mawk> environment variables ?
21:42 < gronke> mawk if you ctrl-f for "galaxy.log" you'll get taken to a Groundwork for Scalability section where it shows you how to specify a log file
21:42 < tpanarch1st> pepermuntjes: sure, but i'm looking for what is installed overall :)
21:42 < pengui> uplime: thanks by the way thats exactly what I wanted. It was for converting one file type for another so where you touch I replaced it with program "$file" -o "$newfile"
21:42 < pepermuntjes> tpanarch1st, or if you like to read, /proc/meminfo
21:42 < pepermuntjes> cat /proc/meminfo
21:42 < mawk> you're not running as a daemon with systemd gronke
21:42 < mawk> so it's not relevant
21:42 < mawk> leave the logging as it is
21:42 < mawk> to standard error/output
21:43 < uplime> pengui: ah
21:43 < gronke> mawk hmm, okay, so I'm trying to find out why a tool for the program isn't deploying, and someone said to check the log file for errors, and since I have it running via a service I don't get to see those errors
21:43 < uplime> glad you got it working
21:43 < mawk> gronke: what about journalctl -u servicename ?
21:43 < mawk> it's not shown here ?
21:43 < gronke> mawk "No journal files were found."
21:44 < mawk> strange
21:44 < mawk> you set --daemon ?
21:44 < mawk> you shouldn't
21:45 < tpanarch1st> so pepermuntjes
21:45 < tpanarch1st> https://pastebin.com/yHvkLt2U
21:45 < tpanarch1st> tried to convert that to gb on google, wasn't having any of it!
21:46 < pepermuntjes> https://www.google.com/search?q=8071856+kB+to+gb&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab
21:47 < pepermuntjes> awk '$3=="kB"{$2=$2/1024**2;$3="GB";} 1' /proc/meminfo | column -t
21:47 < gronke> mawk, I'm not, no, but yeah there's no journal log
21:47 < pepermuntjes> that command gives you in GB
21:48 < pepermuntjes> tpanarch1st,  i found it here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29811297/how-to-display-proc-meminfo-into-megabytes
21:49 < tpanarch1st> pepermuntjes: that gives awk: line 1: syntax error at or near *
21:49 < pepermuntjes> strange
21:49 < pepermuntjes> it works here
21:49 < uplime> tpanarch1st: what awk do you have?
21:50 < gronke> mawk, is there another way to restart this service other than systemctl reboot galaxy ? because that just reboots the whole system and I just want to restart the service
21:51 < mawk> restart, not reboot
21:51 < mawk> also use systemctl daemon-reload when you change .service files
21:51 < tpanarch1st> uplime: this is hilarious mawk 1.3.3
21:51 < tpanarch1st> at the same time as we have mawk in the channel lol
21:51 < mawk> lol
21:52 < uplime> tpanarch1st: ah...
21:52 < tpanarch1st> mawk: no wonder you are not doing what i need you too - you are having a chinwag in #networking instead
21:52 < tpanarch1st> #linux**
21:53 < mawk> yeah
21:56 < solidfox> I'm trying fedora xfce spin
21:56 < jim> what's the spin part?
21:56 < solidfox> jim, there are various "spins" as they call em
21:56 < solidfox> jim, one spin is for xfce, another for kde, mate etc
21:57 < jim> oh ok
21:57 < jim> specific collection of packages?
21:57 < solidfox> last time I tried fedora I feel like I had some issues on my hardware. or maybe with the packages.
21:57 < jim> oops be right back
21:57 < solidfox> though i'm using a vm currently and not my real laptop yet
21:57 < dgurney> fedora has always been rock solid for me
21:58 < pepermuntjes> fedora best distro
21:58  * hodapp throws a chair preemptively
21:58 < solidfox> dgurney, I may have been being a baby.
21:58 < solidfox> oh yeah. don't you have to add extra repos?
21:59 < pepermuntjes> fedora no extra repos except rpmfusion and epel thats all
21:59 < solidfox> pepermuntjes, what are they
21:59 < triceratux> solidfox: xfce is the only hope. the fedora spin confirms that pretty adequately
21:59 < pepermuntjes> and rpmfusion and epel arent 'extra' repos.
21:59 < solidfox> triceratux, :D
21:59 < solidfox> I agree. xfce is pretty good
22:00 < solidfox> pepermuntjes, they're mandatory, but you have to add them manually, right?
22:00 < solidfox> idk. I'll see. sorry I even asked lol
22:00 < pepermuntjes> solidfox, not manually
22:01 < triceratux> solidfox: f27 plays mp3s ootb so you dont need the rpmfusion stuff unless you go full media. even then rpmfusion itself is an ordinary rpm package to get it enabled
22:01 < solidfox> ah yes, I go full media
22:01 < pepermuntjes> never go full media
22:01 < solidfox> I want every file ever to play
22:02 < solidfox> always
22:02 < solidfox> maybe forever.
22:02 < dgurney> rpmfusion is still a good thing to have, even if you don't need the codecs
22:02 < pepermuntjes> rpmfusion these days is also available for centos 7
22:02 < pepermuntjes> works perfectly
22:02 < pepermuntjes> allways install rpmfusion combined with EPEL
22:03 < solidfox> does fedora use SELinux by default?
22:03 < dgurney> yes
22:03 < pepermuntjes> yes
22:03 < pepermuntjes> just like centos
22:03 < dgurney> it could be considered one of its selling points
22:03 < triceratux> yep but its trivial to disable it on the bootloader commandline
22:04 < pepermuntjes> better not disable it
22:04 < dgurney> not that many distros go out of their way to have a reasonable selinux policy oob
22:04 < pepermuntjes> running linux without selinux is like browsing the internet without an adblocker
22:04 < solidfox> pepermuntjes, but ads are just a nuisance
22:05 < ayecee> it's like going swimming without underwear
22:05 < solidfox> all my ps say "unconfined" is that bad?
22:05 < pepermuntjes> with selinux damage is controlled if you apache has a vurnenebliiltie. But with system without selinux you are screwed
22:05 < solidfox> I'd be embarrased to run apache on non-SELinux too
22:05 < solidfox> at least now that I know
22:06 < lukey> I run only the critical parts like Webbrowser or EMail in firejail
22:07 < pepermuntjes> what is firejail?
22:07 < solidfox> maybe I shouldn't make my user "admin"
22:07 < solidfox> is that right?
22:07 < solidfox> because all my ps -eZ processes say unconfined
22:08 < lukey> pepermuntjes: Easy application jailing solution. Wich ships whit lots of profiles for firefox, claws-mail etc. And it's easy to make your own profiles
22:11 < solidfox> weird. its still unconfined after I removed myself from wheel
22:12 < solidfox> I'm going to start over
22:12 < triceratux> in linux the wheel group is almost never the answer
22:12 < pepermuntjes> what has wheel to do with selinux?
22:13 < solidfox> pepermuntjes, i dunno
22:15 < jim> solidfox, after removing yourself from the wheel group, did you log out and log back in again?
22:15 < RayTracer> solidfox: which processes do you expect to be confined?
22:15 < solidfox> jim, yes.
22:16 < solidfox> RayTracer, oh shyt. I'm an idiot. I didn't even think that command probably listed root processes as well
22:16 < jim> ok, then running groups should snow you're not in wheel
22:16 < notmike> What's diff wheel root
22:17 < notmike> Or wheel sudo, rather
22:17 < WeirdTolkienishF> always disable selinux
22:17 < solidfox> I'm already reinstalling and not checking "Make me an administrator" this time
22:17 < jim> I think su looks at wheel to see if it should let them be root
22:17 < mawk> what's the simplest way to impose a quota on a directory ?
22:17 < ayecee> a bat, in easy view of the users
22:18 < solidfox> WeirdTolkienishF, its good for mandatory access control lists and other things
22:18 < pepermuntjes> Cento 7 sudo config:
22:18 < pepermuntjes> ## Allows people in group wheel to run all commands
22:18 < pepermuntjes> %wheel  ALL=(ALL)       ALL
22:19 < notmike> jim: so are sudo and wheel basically interchangeable?
22:19 < jim> pepermuntjes, good to know... it also affects sudo (in addition to su)
22:19 < mawk> lol ayecee
22:19 < jim> notmike, wheel is a group
22:19 < lordvadr> notmike: Wheel is a group. sudo is a program.
22:20 < jim> I didn't finish that sentence because it seems short
22:20 < triceratux> sudo is a highly configurable program, wheel is a group leftover from the earliest unix days
22:20 < notmike> There is a sudo group on some distros, non?
22:20 < mawk> on my debian it's the sudo group yes
22:20 < mawk> not wheel
22:20 < jim> yep
22:20 < lordvadr> notmike: The wheel group is a legacy group name for essentially system admins. While this could be any group name, it's wheel for historical reasons. There exists pre-written configuratinos for su and sudo to allow sysadmin privileges to members of that group.
22:21 < notmike> lordvadr: can I be in wheel?
22:21 < solidfox> RayTracer, all my xfce stuff is unconfined
22:21 < mawk> are you french notmike ?
22:21 < notmike> Oui
22:21 < solidfox> RayTracer, as my user
22:21 < lordvadr> notmike: Any user can be put into the wheel group.
22:22 < lordvadr> What's your actual question though. What are you trying to understand?
22:22 < pepermuntjes> usermod -aG wheel notmike
22:22 < RayTracer> solidfox: that's expected, you need a selinux profile for a service to be confined
22:22 < solidfox> ok
22:22 < RayTracer> solidfox: eg. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/SELinux/Tutorials/Creating_a_daemon_domain
22:22 < backnforth> Hi, can someone explain to me what xrdp does?
22:22 < pepermuntjes> remote desktop over X ?
22:23 < pepermuntjes> xrdp provides a graphical login to remote machines using Microsoft Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP). xrdp accepts connections from a variety of RDP clients: FreeRDP, rdesktop, NeutrinoRDP and Microsoft Remote Desktop Client (for Windows, Mac OS, iOS and Android).
22:23 < notmike> lordvadr: I initially believed wheel was the historical admin group from Unix, and that in some distros like Ubuntu or Debian (that exist for no0bs) wheel had been deprecated by sudo. However, both serve the same purpose.
22:23 < backnforth> thanks peps
22:24 < notmike> I was also confused about the /etc/sudoers file, though, and how that fits in.
22:24 < solidfox> gtg. thanks guys
22:24 < lordvadr> notmike: You're free to configure it however you want. In rhel-ey distros, wheel gives you passworded access to sudo. You can also configure su to require wheel membership, or permit anybody in wheel to become another user.
22:25 < lordvadr> Some distros think this should be modernized. Some do not.
22:25 < lordvadr> The name derives from "big wheel".
22:25 < notmike> Where do you configure su?
22:25 < lordvadr>  /etc/pam.d/su
22:25 < notmike> Interesting
22:25 < pepermuntjes> notmike, you probably are looking for visudo
22:26 < jim> notmike, that file specifically configures the sudo program, and depending on what you put in it, can connect to the other things we're talking about (example, it could give users in the group wheel ability to run anything
22:26 < backnforth> pepermuntjes,  does xrdp use Windows or Linux?
22:26 < vlt> Hello. I desperately try to disable a function (of Xorg?) that switches off my display 10 minutes after the last key press. `xset q` tells me there’s a screen saver timeout of 600 seconds. `xset s off` sets this to 0 but after 10 minutes: off.
22:26 < jim> (which is probably how it was)
22:26 < vlt> Then I tried `xset -dpms s off` which seemed to help at first but after a re-login the setting seems to back to "on".
22:26 < vlt> Where to edit those values persistantly?
22:26 < triceratux> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2002/09/msg01810.html
22:27 < notmike> jim: but then what is sudoers file then :/
22:27 < Dagmar> vlt: There's not a place.  Just stick it in your ~/.xsessionrc or something
22:27 < ledtc> When i start my python app from SSH in a tmux everything is fine. But when started from an crontab via i get unicode errors ?
22:27 < Mistell> vlt: https://askubuntu.com/questions/366308/how-to-make-xset-s-off-survive-a-reboot-12-04
22:27 < pepermuntjes> jim, on centos in pamd su , all wheel stuff is commented out by default
22:28 < lordvadr> notmike: su and sudo have little to do with each other.
22:28 < triceratux> linux doesnt use wheel because rms doesnt like it
22:28 < Mistell> > but sudo with su are a good time just waiting
22:29 < vlt> Dagmar, Mistell: Ok, thank you. Do you know where those “600 seconds” come from in the first place?
22:30 < lordvadr> notmike: su is the old way of doing things, and requires that you know the target users password to become them. sudo is more recent, and requires that you know your own password to become someone else. Both of them have ways to constrain this power, but sudo is considerably more feature rich.
22:30 < Dagmar> vlt: Five minute default
22:30 < Dagmar> su is not necessarily the
22:31 < Dagmar> "old" way of doing things.  It's simply a different tool from what sudo is for
22:31 < pepermuntjes> su = switch user
22:31 < Dagmar> People _use_ sudo like su, but that's like using your car to crush a beer can
22:31 < pepermuntjes> sudo = super-user do
22:32 < Dagmar> Sudo was designed to be _far_ more granular and allow specific users to run specific commands with specific other user credentials, not necessarily root, without having to know the target user/group password
22:34 < lordvadr> Dagmar: Sudo is also from ~1980 but wasn't widely adopted for considerably longer. su was in the unix v1 (1971)
22:34 < Dagmar> So?
22:35 < Dagmar> If it was written three days after su it would still make su "older".
22:35 < Mistell> sudo is used for priv management. su is switch user.
22:35 < lordvadr> su was the only tool available for a long timel
22:35 < Mistell> every different tasks
22:35 < Dagmar> The thing that is actually important is that these two tools fall into _roughly_ the same category, but sudo was written to solve an entirely different problem
22:35 < Mistell> sub. user*
22:35 < lordvadr> That's absolutely true.
22:35 < pepermuntjes> you can't switch users with sudo
22:36 < Dagmar> Actually you basically can.
22:36 < pepermuntjes> without calling su
22:36 < lordvadr> pepermuntjes: sudo -u
22:36 < mnemon> like sudo -i ?
22:36 < Dagmar> You can call sudo -u and invoke bash with sudo just fine
22:36 < Dagmar> ...assuming it's actually allowed by the sudo configuration
22:36 < pepermuntjes> most peeps i know do sudo su -
22:37 < Dagmar> Smack their hands with a ruler
22:37 < Mistell> that's for elevating privs
22:37 < pepermuntjes> why Dagmar ?
22:37 < lordvadr> pepermuntjes: I've seen people `sudo /bin/sh'.
22:37 < Dagmar> No, it's just for showing you don't actually know what you're typing is doing.
22:37 < Dagmar> s/you're/your
22:37 < Dagmar> There's no sense in using `sudo su -`
22:37 < Mistell> Dagmar: _or_ you absolutely do and you've finally comprimised a box after a ruthless 24 hour battle of wit
22:37 < notmike> Seems dangerous to let someone use another users credentials without knowing the password.
22:38 < pepermuntjes> what do you recommend using instead Dagmar ?
22:38 < Dagmar> Mistell: Having compromised _many_ boxes, no.  That's not what I'd be doing.
22:38 < Dagmar> pepermuntjes: If you want to change uids just use su
22:38 < lordvadr> notmike: That's exactly what it's for. With su, you have to give many people the root password, and there's no way to revoke that.
22:38 < Dagmar> pepermuntjes: For that invocation you might as well just go ahead and run `sudo bash`
22:39 < pepermuntjes> Dagmar, but then i have a non-login shell
22:39 < lordvadr> pepermuntjes: sudo -i for login shell, sodo -s for non-login shell.
22:39 < Dagmar> If someone can run `sudo su -` and *can't* run `sudo bash` then perhaps you need to question the competence of whoever architected the sudoers file
22:40 < Dagmar> pepermuntjes: Since when is a root "login" even remotely important to anything
22:40 < djph> Dagmar: or the user
22:40 < Mistell> Dagmar: what would you do provided you have a user's creds, they can sudo to a shell, and you want root.
22:40 < Mistell> you going to sudo a long list of commands or get a root shell and work from there
22:41 < Dagmar> Mistell: I'd start by looking for any custom cron jobs the admin has in place, and then i'd do a quick scan for suid root binaries with find because _people are often very stupid_
22:41 < djph> why would you ever use "a user's creds"?
22:41 < Dagmar> djph: To leave them holding the bag in the audit log.  ;)
22:41 < SporkWitch> ^
22:41 < Mistell> But why if root is right in front of you
22:41 < Dagmar> Way easier to gain root once you have access to _one_ account
22:41 < djph> Dagmar: yeah, but you're the operator, you do that anyway.
22:41 < Dagmar> Mistell: If root access is already available, then your question was dumb
22:41 < Mistell> if I've got a valid cred reuse and I can sudo to a root shell why would I ignore that and go a long way around.
22:42 < Dagmar> Mistell: What long way
22:42 < Mistell> Yes, and it's available through sudo su
22:42 < pepermuntjes> i had a collegue that wanted to reset set root password on 100 machines with puppet to something he forgot, claiming that with sudo nobody would ever need root password.
22:42 < Mistell> You mentioned above that's a bad idea for getting root.
22:42 < djph> I doubt that
22:42 < SporkWitch> i can picture pivot scenarios where you found a way to su to a non-root user that had more freedom
22:42 < Mistell> If I have a user's creds and they are in sudoers, I'm going to imemdiately sudo su -
22:42 < Mistell> then clean up logs afterwards
22:43 < Dagmar> Because there's going to be zero functional difference between `sudo bash` and `sudo su -`, and there's some deeply questionable things about even bothering with a "login shell" for an account which is _not a user_
22:43 < Mistell> My apologies, sudo bash is just fine as well.
22:43 < mnemon> Dagmar: su - will try to mimic login shell and loads the root env
22:43 < Mistell> I assumed you were advocating againsted sudoing into a shell at all
22:43 < Mistell> against*
22:43 < Dagmar> root is a role account.  It's not the sort of thing a login session is really appropriate for with that in mind
22:43 < mnemon> bash just loads .bashrc but keeps the user env
22:43 < Mistell> Absolutely
22:43 < pepermuntjes> i had some systems where sudo su - worked, and sudo -i didn't
22:44 < Dagmar> mnemon: I've been using Unixes since dirt.  I'm perfectly aware of these things, thanks
22:44 < pepermuntjes> are there alternatives to sudo and su?
22:44 < Mistell> pb
22:44 < Mistell> depends on what you want out of them
22:44 < Dagmar> There's still always `login`
22:45 < Mistell> powerbroker is one example of priv management
22:45 < tpanarch1st> so uplime is there a command for getting total available memory there please?
22:45 < tpanarch1st> with mawk
22:45 < triceratux> pepermuntjes: theres pkexec & gksu. oh wait theres no gksu any more
22:45 < Dagmar> ...but if you get into the habit of casually spawning root shells, you're eventually going to find out why we tell people not to
22:45 < djph> tpanarch1st: total available memory where?
22:45 < pepermuntjes> tpanarch1st, free -h
22:46 < notmike> What's sudo su - do?
22:46 < pepermuntjes> notmike, makes u root
22:46 < pepermuntjes> if you are in the wheel group
22:46 < Dagmar> ...and guarantees your next mispaste will also be executed as root.
22:46 < triceratux> https://www.systutorials.com/docs/linux/man/1-kdesu/
22:47 < notmike> Why would you go after root if you're sudo?
22:47 < SporkWitch> debians use the "sudo" group, rather than wheel (just extra info)
22:47  * hodapp hides in Dagmar's closet to wait until he leaves a root shell open accidentally
22:47 < Dagmar> Because you are never sudo
22:47 < uplime> tpanarch1st | so uplime is there a command for getting total available memory there please?
22:47 < Mistell> notmike: depends on your intentions
22:47 < uplime> completely unrelated to awk
22:47 < Dagmar> hodapp: I've already made those mistakes enough times I'm not making them again.  ;)
22:48 < Dagmar> hodapp: You wouldn't believe the reactions I've gotten from some of my girlfriends because if I stand up to even walk across the room I lock the console I'm on
22:48 < hodapp> Dagmar: too late. I already changed your motd to say "poop".
22:48 < hodapp> TAKE THAT
22:48 < pepermuntjes> Dagmar, where i work noboby locks their screen. ever
22:48 < Mistell> lordy
22:48 < tpanarch1st> Mem: total 7.7G  swap Swap: 7.0G - thought it was more than that pepermuntjes
22:48 < Dagmar> Like, "An hour ago your **** was ** ** ***** and you won't trust me with an open terminal?"
22:48 < tpanarch1st> oh total memory on my system was what i was asking djph
22:49 < Dagmar> pepermuntjes: That's kind of sad
22:49 < pepermuntjes> Dagmar, i suspect the reason why they do it
22:49 < Mistell> Screen locks should be a deeply engrained habit at the least.
22:49 < pepermuntjes> they hope someody goes behind their computer and finishes their work
22:49 < Mistell> _lol_
22:49 < Dagmar> In my defense, my girlfriends always have a perfectly functioal account of their own on my equipemtn
22:49 < kope> https://pastebin.com/LrNxJNbE
22:49 < hodapp> Dagmar: I read that in Data's voice, so you know.
22:50 < kope> how can i solve this https://pastebin.com/LrNxJNbE
22:50 < Mistell> kope: and?
22:50 < tpanarch1st> so is the answer there pepermuntjes that I have 8gb installed?
22:50 < Dagmar> hodapp: Yah I get accused of things along those lines somewhat frequently as well
22:50 < Mistell> kope: why wouldn't you paste the compose file?
22:50 < kope> the docker.yml?
22:50 < Dagmar> tpanarch1st: Yes.  It's probably not showing as an even 8G because of windows of memory reserved for the GPU
22:50 < Mistell> the docker-compose.yml (or docker.yml if you named it that)
22:50 < hodapp> Dagmar: ...also that
22:50 < pepermuntjes> tpanarch1st, you have 8,071856 Gigabyte installed
22:51 < hodapp> except "yes" and not "yah"
22:51 < kope> Mistell, can i pm you it ?
22:51 < Mistell> sure
22:51 < tpanarch1st> ah so pepermuntjes that wouldn't translate to 8gb installed then :)
22:51 < Mistell> though if youre compose file has sensitive data in it, you should store the envs in a .env and load it in :P
22:51 < tpanarch1st> i'm trying to save taking the cover off the box as it's tucked away!
22:51 < Dagmar> tpanarch1st: UNless it's a virtual, you have 8Gb.  No one makes a 7 & 3/4 Gb stick of RAM
22:52 < tpanarch1st> that's what i thought Dagmar until pepermuntjes said it says i have more than 8gb
22:52 < Dagmar> tpanarch1st: Oh.  There's a command you can just use, man
22:52 < tpanarch1st> Dagmar: even man man needs a man ;-p
22:52 < hodapp> I
22:52 < Dagmar> tpanarch1st: On anything reasonably recent, just run `dmidecode` as root and wade through it
22:53 < pepermuntjes> i have 8 gb installed
22:53 < pepermuntjes> and it reports this:
22:53 < pepermuntjes>               total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
22:53 < pepermuntjes> Mem:           7.7G        1.6G        150M        264M        6.0G        5.5G
22:53 < Dagmar> There's a way to tell it to only tell you about RAM, but if you can't tell if an entry in the output is a stick of RAM or not, then you're probably entirely out of your depth
22:54 < Dagmar> `dmidecode --type 6`
22:55 < Dagmar> By example, here that reports https://pastebin.com/6df9JWdH
22:55 < SmashingX> Does anhone know how to record calls on slack?
22:55 < SmashingX> I’ve been able to record calls but I can only hear my voice
22:55 < notmike> My girlfriend doesn't have time for computing. Far too much else to do today.
22:56 < Dagmar> SmashingX: If you've got the option to select what device your'e recording from, fiddle with that
22:56 < Dagmar> SmashingX: It's kind of a mess on some devices
22:56 < SmashingX> but what tools are recommended
22:56 < SmashingX> ?
22:56 < Dagmar> SmashingX: Pretty much the reason I stick with Skvalex's Call Recorder is that's been able to reliably record calls without me having to mess with it
22:57 < Dagmar> If you're trying to record a call made with the desktop application, you're just going to have to tap both the output and the mic input and mux them (yes, this is non-trivial)
22:58 < tpanarch1st> 'Dagmar: you meant dmidecode --type16'
22:58 < tpanarch1st> woops with a space
22:58 < tpanarch1st> yeah it's 8gb :)
22:58 < tpanarch1st> thanks
22:58 < pepermuntjes> type 16
22:58 < pepermuntjes> is something else
22:59 < pepermuntjes> you need type 6
22:59 < Dagmar> tpanarch1st: I typed it correctly.
22:59 < Dagmar> It's even right there in the pastebin, man
23:00 < Dagmar> THe list of types is only a couple of pages from the top in the man entry for dmidecode
23:00 < Dagmar> ...but it's a handy tool when you don't want to open a box up
23:00 < pepermuntjes> type 6 says what you got installed (that 7 3/4 gb one), and type 16 says whats maximum possible to install
23:01 < pepermuntjes> my type 6 says two modules of 4096 gb
23:01 < pepermuntjes> and my type 16 says i can go up to 16GB
23:02 < Dagmar> You might want to consult type 5 while you're at it
23:02 < Dagmar> i.e., the memory controller
23:02 < pepermuntjes> nice
23:02 < tpanarch1st> ah like https://paste.linux.community/view/81033192
23:02 < tpanarch1st> here's what happens between type 6 and type 16 for me
23:03 < pepermuntjes> hmm
23:03 < Dagmar> I shouldn't talk bad about your RAM but you definitely bought bargain RAM
23:03 < Dagmar> ...or possibly it's just soldered into the motherboard an the manuf didn't care to put an identifying eeprom on there as well
23:03 < tpanarch1st> oh right :-p
23:03 < Dagmar> This information comes from an extra chip that exists on _most_ modern sticks of RAM
23:03 < tpanarch1st> ahhhhhh
23:03 < tpanarch1st> no wonder :)
23:04 < tpanarch1st> reet well i can only go up to 8gb then which is depressing
23:04 < Dagmar> Check the manuf's site for a BIOS update
23:04 < mawk> if I mount sysfs read-only I can still modify values
23:04 < tpanarch1st> i installed my own memory :)
23:04 < mawk> how is that possible
23:05 < Dagmar> 8Gb is a somewhat "stickier" boundary, but it's possible a BIOS update may have added the capability for the memory controller to deal with newer geometries
23:05 < hexnewbie> mawk: Well, it's sysfs, not your typical filesystem.
23:05 < mawk> what happens if I don't mount any sysfs in my pseudo-container ?
23:06 < jeffree> anyone know how to make ubuntu open previously open application after reboot?
23:06 < hexnewbie> mawk: Given that every file in it *is* magic, doesn't behave at all like files on real filesystems, writing to it is special, so respecting the ro flag is unlikely.
23:06 < SmashingX> Dagmar: VLC only has one option: Built in microphone
23:07 < Dagmar> You'll need to tap more than one audio sink, man
23:07 < pepermuntjes> jeffree, https://www.howtogeek.com/203952/how-to-automatically-remember-running-applications-from-your-last-session-in-ubuntu-14.04/
23:08 < SmashingX> Dagmar: does VLC have that feature?
23:08 < pepermuntjes> jeffree, never mind, just reading it was removed for ubuntu 16
23:09 < jeffree> pepermuntjes: that method or the entire functionality?
23:09 < jeffree> anyway, that path is not present in ubuntu 17.10
23:09 < pepermuntjes> yeah
23:09 < jeffree> yeah what?
23:10 < pepermuntjes> that way
23:10 < pepermuntjes> ubuntu suggest hybernating
23:11 < pepermuntjes> but
23:11 < pepermuntjes> You can specify some applications that launch when you log in to your desktop session:
23:11 < pepermuntjes> Automatically remember running applications when logging out in System -> Preferences -> Startup Applications -> Options
23:12 < pepermuntjes> maybe the dconf method is back in ubuntu 18.04 since they switched to gnome?
23:13 < leibniz> pppc
23:14 < leibniz> d vqq
23:15 < pepermuntjes> leibniz, what are you trying to summon?
23:18 < jeffree> pepermuntjes: thanks for trying
23:35 < tunekey> am i being silly? why doesn't this work? https://0bin.net/paste/+SbEQifSa-elAJX3#mkgi0ogEt4m7L5HKFWCiOHrKe07513Ek7MRXhsy8wnP
23:35 < jim> pepermuntjes, well think about it... if it wasn't there at all, maybe you could presume someone didnt want to leave any remnants of wheel, but since it is, you can figure someone thought to make wheel optional
23:39 < sauvin> tunekey, what happens if you use eq in place of = ?
23:40 < tunekey> what https://0bin.net/paste/LvT688PMc2kRw-Ut#wWmUM5bCivggEn5PqwfZWdT9REW4rLZ5YxCY6U+HecT
23:41 < sauvin> Eh, I shouldn't be saying anything. I'm not a basher. Have you considered asking in #bash ?
23:41 < tunekey> oh ok sauvin
23:41 < uplime> tunekey: = is fine
23:41 < tunekey> uplime, yeah duh
23:41 < uplime> -eq is for numbers and shouldn't be used
23:41 < sauvin> o.O
23:41 < tunekey> uplime, oh ok
23:42 < uplime> in your first link, what do you expect || to do?
23:42 < sauvin> Jeebus, bash is strange.
23:42 < uplime> sauvin: yes
23:42 < tunekey> uplime, run next command in terminal as if i just typed it and pressed enter
23:42 < z88> bash is very finicky. A quick search tells me that "==" is used to compare strings.
23:42 < uplime> z88: == and = do. == isn't posix though
23:43 < z88> I always need to google when I'm writing some bash script.
23:43 < djph> gotta get your spacing right
23:43 < uplime> tunekey: ok, thats not what it does. try replacing those with a ;
23:43 < tunekey> uplime, oh ok
23:43 < djph> z88: greycat's bashguide helps a lot
23:43 < uplime> im assuming you didn't get any error with that first one, it just didn't run every command
23:43 < uplime> djph++
23:45 < tunekey> uplime, yeah it didn't seem to do anything
23:46 < tunekey> i'm using qubes and hoping that wasn't the problem. its a fedora vm
23:46 < morenoh149> I have a daemon in init.d, I'd like to have the docker command inside pull env var from a file, is it a good idea to add the env_file next to the daemon in init.d?
23:47 < wawrek> Fedora is known for being a bleeding edge distro; does it also apply to debian sid. Is sid stable for programming work?
23:47 < SporkWitch> ...
23:47 < wawrek> I am hesitating between both - that is why I asked.
23:48 < SporkWitch> the definition of "bleeding edge" has clearly been significantly watered down lol
23:48 < wawrek> yes
23:48 < wawrek> true - it is more up-to-date than other distributions.
23:48 < SporkWitch> in the context of their families, sure, they're going to have the most recent stuff
23:48 < triceratux> wawrek: sid is always unstable. at least fedora is calibrated into snapshots
23:49 < wawrek> ok
23:49 < flying_sausages> hey guys, what's a quick way i can measure write performance to a disk?
23:49 < wawrek> thanks
23:49 < SporkWitch> for debian itself (e.g. not downstream, not a fork) sid is unstable, latest stuff, no stability guarantees.  similarly, within the RHEL family of RHEL, centos, and fedora, fedora is their beta version, as i understand, so it'll have the most recent stuff
23:49 < SporkWitch> NONE OF THESE are "bleeding edge" by any useful definition of the phrase
23:49 < SporkWitch> flying_sausages: dd + iotop?
23:49 < triceratux> fedora cuts, arch bleeds
23:50 < flying_sausages> SporkWitch, thanks
23:56 < jab416171> how do I forward my ssh session? I thought it was as simple as ssh -A host1, and then from there I can just ssh host2 and it'll use my key
23:59 < tpanarch1st> thanks all :)
--- Log closed Tue Apr 24 00:00:56 2018