--- Log opened Sat May 05 00:00:09 2018
00:04 < wizzi> hello, i have problem with my disks "read only"
00:06 < stevendale> Hey
00:08 < Bashing-om> wizzi: What file system on the drive ' sudo parted -l ' in a pastebin site ?
00:09 < arora> does linux support intel z87 chipset ?
00:10 < stevendale> arora It'd be better for you to try it and see... your computer won't blow up if it doesn't
00:11 < arora> it isn't mine but someone elses, saw it in the kernel bugs a few days back #199577 to be exact
00:12 < arora> stevendale: ^^
00:15 < jcarder_> I'm dual booting windows/linux. I resized my linux partition to get more free space for something else, then I couldn't boot into linux so I added the free space back to the partition and it booted but I was just left with a cursor and a blank screen. No display manager or anything. Any help would be great thanks!
00:15 < wizzi> Bashing-om : when i did the command i found nothing in system ,file : ntfs
00:16 < bls> jcarder_: what commands did you run on both the original and secondary resizes?
00:16 < jcarder_> bls: I just used "cfdisk" and resized it there
00:17 < jcarder_> and I added it back with cfdisk as well
00:18 < Bashing-om> wizzi: Example ' sudo parted -l | nc termbin.com 9999 ' my result: http://termbin.com/c5d3 .
00:19 < bls> so you resized the partitions but not the filesystem? or does cfdisk support filesystem resizing now?
00:19 < bls> and is LVM in play at all?
00:21 < wizzi> Bashing-om: what should i do ?
00:22 < Bashing-om> wizzi: execute terminal command ' sudo parted -l | nc termbin.com 9999 ' and pass the resulting complete URL back into channel .
00:23 < wizzi> Bashing-om: http://termbin.com/9wrw
00:26 < Bashing-om> wizzi: ntfs file system confirmed . Generally. Windows tools for Windows issues . Can you not boot Windows and fix the issue from within Windows ? - maybe just need to cleanly UN-mount the file systems .
00:27 < wizzi> Bashing-om: yeah i have two boot , how can fix it with windows ?
00:27 < noodlepie> windows is a security risk as it can read your linux partition and spyware on your ass
00:27 < jcarder_> bls: pretty sure just the partitions, not sure about LVM (I'm somewhat new to linux so sorry if I'm sounding stupid)
00:28 < Bashing-om> wizzi: Be aware if Windows is hibernated, linux will not tough the file system with out a force .
00:28 < Bashing-om> touch*
00:28 < kremator> hey guys, in Stallman/Linux Service Pack 1, when a process is created, it does automatically create a thread inside it right? i mean, all stuff running inside a process must have to be at least in one thread right?
00:28 < bls> jcarder_: no worries, if you're honest about your experience level it'll keep us from potentially talking over your head
00:29 < jcarder_> yeah
00:29 < rascul> what  is "Stallman/Linux Service Pack 1" supposed to be?
00:29 < kremator> rascul, just a like joke of "linux"
00:29 < kremator> light*
00:30 < rascul> doesn't seem like a good one
00:30 < bls> LAUGHNOW!!!
00:30 < kremator> rascul, bls, you dont have to
00:30 < wizzi> Bashing-om: yeah i use windows just sometimes so ,what should i do now to fix it ?
00:30 < kremator> but now the important part, does processes always have at least one thread inside them?
00:31 < Bashing-om> wizzi: Boot windows and fully shut the system down - NO hibernation - and see if then the issue is resolved .
00:32 < kremator> wizzi, do you have the clasical problem of linux not being able to mount an NTFS partition? it is because Win. didnt shutdown las time you "close" it
00:32 < jcarder_> bls: any suggestions?
00:32 < jim> jcarder_, no worries... it's easy for us to figure out if lvm was used in your installation... and if so, we can go into what it is
00:32 < jim> (or even if not, if you're curious)
00:33 < kremator> wizzi, if you are running Win10, do a completely shutdown, that can only be done by "restarting" instead of shutdown option in win10
00:33 < jcarder_> ok
00:33 < jcarder_> how would one do that?
00:33 < kremator> hey jim, do you know about processes and threads?
00:33 < jim> not much about threads, more about processes
00:33 < bls> jcarder_: start would be to pastebin you disk info. jim probably has something handy for that quicker that I do
00:34 < wizzi> kremator: im using win8.1 ....Bashing-om: how ?
00:34 < kremator> jim, perfect, does all processes by default (at least on linux) have at least one thread inside them? even if your program explicitely doesnt use any kind of multithreading?
00:35 < jim> jcarder_, there's a file that lists what filesystems/drives get mounted at boot... let's look at that: could you run: cat /etc/fstab | nc termbin.com 9999
00:35 < kremator> wizzi, you should do it anyways, because i think the "FastBoot" or "BootReady" feature was firstly implemented in win8, it is a feature that basically makes windows to not fully shutdowns (because between other stuff it do, they do not "unlock" it's NTFS partition)
00:35 < Bashing-om> wizzi: I have no even looked at a Windows machine in Years, I can not guide you in Windows operations .
00:35 < jcarder_> will do
00:36 < jim> it would give back a url, to show us the file, tell us the url
00:36 < jcarder_> jim, bls: http://termbin.com/yzwp
00:36 < brianx> i have users who are in different time zones who need to use $TZ, but don't use a shell so .profile and .bashcr don't get executed.  is there a standard place to put a user's tz, or should i just make a solution up?  google only seemed to know about .profile -like solutions.
00:37 < jim> that's different :) can't tell anything from that :)
00:38 < jim> ok, could you run: sudo pvscan 2>&1 | nc termbin.com
00:38 < bls> the fear is that you may have dropped partition table bits into the middle of your LVM and/or filesystem setup (if your cfdisk isn't filesystem or LVM aware and didn't shrink them *before* shrinking the partition).
00:38 < wizzi> Bashing-om: can i do it with linux ? .....kremator: how can i shutdown it fully ?
00:38 < jim> jcarder_, this will tell us if you have any of what are called "LVM physical volumes"
00:38 < jcarder_> my bad, forgot to mount the partition here the output: http://termbin.com/qx1b
00:39 < bls> you may need to boot a rescue disk and force a fsck to attempt to fix the filesystem. not sure what the equivalent is for checking/repairing LVM
00:39 < jcarder_> im on a live boot right now, could I do it from here?
00:39 < kremator> wizzi, to shutdown completely, you either go to advanced win8 options (sorry i dont remember exactly where) and disable FastBoot (not recomended) or you boot that windows, then "restart" it  from the start menu instead of "shutdown" and then boot linux and try mounting the partition
00:40 < jim> oh ok... that's why you had to mount it
00:40 < jim> anyway, it looks like you're not running LVM
00:41 < jcarder_> output for "sudo pvscan 2>&1 | nc termbin.com" is " No matching physical volumes found"
00:41 < jim> ok
00:41 < bls> no LVM is good in this instance, one less thing to potentially be broken/need repair
00:42 < lupine> LVM is good
00:42 < jim> yeah :)
00:42 < wizzi> kremator: i'll try it
00:42 < jcarder_> thats good haha
00:42 < jim> didn['t he say "No, lvm is good"?
00:42 < bls> nope, no comma
00:43 < jim> yeah you're right, it's a few extra moving parts to reason about
00:43 < bls> I was worried he'd broken his FS and LVM
00:44 < jcarder_> do you mind giving me a breif explanation of what LVM is (im new to this sorry)
00:45 < SporkWitch> jcarder_: https://lmgtfy.com/?s=d&q=breif+explanation+of+what+LVM+is
00:45 < jim> sure... before lvm, you could only mount filesystems that were in partitions (or whole drives)
00:45 < jim> lvm lets you define storage units that are created to come from a single partition
00:46 < jim> the storage for these units come from what's called a physical volume, which is just a partition that's formatted in a particular way
00:46 < SporkWitch> all of which is explained succinctly in the wiki :)
00:47 < jim> yeah yeah :P I'm getting there...
00:47 < jcarder_> ok
00:47 < jcarder_> I looked at the wiki and I sortof understand
00:47 < jcarder_> thanks
00:48 < zeffy> how are you guys >?
00:49 < jim> these physical volumes are listed in what's called a volume group, which opens up a bunch of new possibilities
00:49 < SporkWitch> some of the main advantages is that it allows more manipulation, such as resizing.  It's also useful for FDE: create a LUKS partition, and then inside the luks container you do LVM, makes it easy to have data and swap both encrypted
00:50 < jcarder_> so it pretty much makes it easier to modify partitions on the fly and allows you to do a lot more stuff with there partitions?
00:51 < jim> those are some of the new possibilities, here are more: a volume group can list physical volumes which are located on different drives, so when you finally get down to creating logical volumes, they could live on many drives
00:51 < ananke> jcarder_: in simplest terms LVM is an abstraction layer between physical block devices and filesystems. you throw whatever devices you want into a bucket, then out of that bucket you can take however many cups of water
00:52 < jcarder_> that makes a lot more sense, thanks ananke, jim
00:52 < SporkWitch> i feel like i've traveled back in time; just did a fresh install of kubuntu 18.04 and everything that used to run perfectly in WINE can't even launch no matter what i do >_<
00:52 < SporkWitch> (been stuck on windows most of the last year)
00:53 < jim> SporkWitch, how's your gig situation these days?
00:53 < SporkWitch> jim: job's decent, roommate situation not so much, but hopefully resolved soon
00:54 < jim> that sounds great
00:55 < SporkWitch> jim: getting a little cranky with work; was just barely edged out for a promotion, and now more seats opened up and they're apparently insisting on external hires...  at the same time i've been getting some messages from recruiters on linked in.  So far i've politely declined, but if it's looking like i'm stuck at the current level i might have to start talking to them.
00:55 < lupine> SporkWitch: what's your specialtyu?
00:56 < SporkWitch> lupine: hard to really say at this point.  general systems and networking administration for years, went to uni for security and have done information assurance work before.  right now i'm doing technical support for a voip provider, so mostly product-specific stuff and networking
00:57 < jim> so the school part went well?
00:57 < SporkWitch> lupine: though i also still do some sysadmin stuff on my own.  actually looking at a vbulletin license to expand services for a discord community i admin; we've got just shy of 2k people (had 7k, but the old owner's been MIA for months, so we moved; was actually really impressed at the active percentage, as you all know from IRC, even 5% active 95% lurkers is good numbers for a large channel)
00:58 < SporkWitch> jim: eh, didn't finish due to the money stuff, but with a major company name on my resume and good performance that doesn't seem to be an issue now
00:59 < SporkWitch> jim: my boss knows my position: i don't want to go anywhere, and i won't look unless it feels like i'm stuck and the only way up is out.  Hoping it won't come to that, but we'll see.  Coming up on the 1-year mark, so we'll see what happens as far as moving up.
01:00 < jim> sounds like boss isn't saying much about upward opportunities
01:00 < SporkWitch> jim: naw, even my first feedback he told me straight up i'm overqualified and he's looking for ways to move me up.
01:01 < thadtheman> Got a java on Linux question. Do not want to ask in a Java forum, because basically I hate Java. I have to write a couple of small classes and create a jar. What is a good environment similar to Visual-C++/VB/Delphi that includes a GUI builder and can manage a project for me so that I don't have to worry about what files are a part of the project etc.
01:01 < SporkWitch> jim: i suspect a lot of it is higher up due to the merger; like i said, we'll see.  Letting me even go for the promotion as early as i did was an exception, since normally they require you to be in your position for at least a year.
01:02 < SporkWitch> thadtheman: VB? Literally nothing, it's an abortion that has no place existing.  If you do have to use it, you're writing a windows application, visual studio is the only real option.
01:02 < SporkWitch> thadtheman: for java, though, eclipse
01:03 < jcarder_> jim, bls: anyway to fix my linux installation?
01:03 < Disconsented> intellij has a window builder plugin iirc
01:05 < jim> jcarder_, at the time I started talking to you, you were all curious whether there existed any lvm, so I mostly concentrated on that (as you know it turned out there's no lvm there right now)....
01:05 < jim> jcarder_, having said all that, I don't know your situation other than that
01:06 < jim> I know you had to boot a live cd for some reason
01:06 < jcarder_> I can boot into linux but all that shows up is a blank screen and a cursor
01:07 < jim> what exactly does the cursor look like?
01:07 < jcarder_> its the default KDE plasma cursor
01:07 < jcarder_> i use KDE
01:08 < jcarder_> I can't do anything though, its just a blank screen and nothing shows up even if I wait a while
01:09 < jim> it looks to me like most of your system is booting... how are you ircing to us right now?
01:09 < SporkWitch> if you can access a tty, reinstall kde
01:09 < jcarder_> from a live CD
01:09 < jim> oh ok
01:10 < jim> can you remind me of which dist you're running?
01:10 < jcarder_> ubuntu 18.04
01:10 < jcarder_> kubuntu*
01:10 < jim> ok, do you want to run kde?
01:10 < jcarder_> I usually use i3wm but kde is fine
01:11 < lupine> there is nothing as good as delphi
01:11 < SporkWitch> jcarder_: is this happening before sddm comes up, or after you log in?
01:11 < jcarder_> before sddm
01:11 < lupine> for java, you're really stuck with eclipse I guess
01:11 < jcarder_> no display manager shows up
01:11 < SporkWitch> lupine: if you're forced to use java, eclipse isn't horrible with vrapper
01:12 < SporkWitch> jcarder_: can you get a tty?
01:12 < jcarder_> yes
01:12 < SporkWitch> jcarder_: then reinstall sddm
01:12 < jim> lupine, I guess you could use netbeans too, if you want to use an ide
01:12 < SporkWitch> possibly your gpu drivers as well
01:12 < jcarder_> ok
01:12 < jcarder_> I'll try that and get back to you guys later
01:12 < jcarder_> thanks again
01:12 < lupine> java is negative fun
01:13 < SporkWitch> java is THE main reason i've not done much android dev lol
01:14 < sir_guy_carleton> how do you feel about java vs c++?
01:14 < mgolisch> its not that bad, java that is
01:14 < SporkWitch> mgolisch: true, vb.net exists
01:15 < sir_guy_carleton> lol true
01:16 < thadtheman> lupine: There was C__Builder, which I actually like better then Delph, but that's sort of like slitting hairs.
01:17 < wizzi> Thanks so much it works
01:17 < brianx> eek, but we already know there are lots of scary dev systems and languages.
01:17 < lupine> C++Builder mostly used delphi .tcus anyway
01:17 < lupine> linux has lazarus, which tries to keep the kylix spirit alive, but mostly unsuccessfully
01:18 < strength1900> hello
01:19 < wizzi> strength1900: Hi
01:20 < brianx> seems like nobody has a good way to set user specific $TZ when no shell is being run, so i think i'll just make a link to the tz file in each user's home then interpret that for $TZ when starting the app running under each account.
01:21 < strength1900> I dunno if this is the right channel for this, but I'm trying to create a bootable USB drive for ESXi using fdisk and I'm running into some issues.
01:21 < SporkWitch> why fdisk?
01:21 < strength1900> their documentation recommends using fdisk
01:22 < SporkWitch> use etcher
01:22 < SporkWitch> bootable usbs have always been a headache; etcher just works.  launch → choose drive → choose iso → click start
01:24 < mgolisch> they could just provide images for that
01:24 < wizzi> is etcher a good up for booting ?
01:24 < SporkWitch> "a good up" ? O.o
01:24 < wizzi> app *
01:24 < SporkWitch> etcher does and works exactly as i said
01:24 < wizzi> sorry typo
01:26 < jml2> SporkWitch, whats etcher
01:26 < wizzi> because i used an other app after using my usb become with "this disk for read only"
01:26 < SporkWitch> jml2: https://lmgtfy.com/?s=d&q=whats+etcher
01:26  * jml2 https://etcher.io/ this ?
01:27 < triceratux> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/04/fedora_28/
01:27 < jml2> that's much bigger than fedorawriter
01:27 < thadtheman> SporkWitch: I hate VB too. But what I'm looking for is something like VB or  a lot of other Windows build environments Delphi Visual-C++) . Something which will let me write a few small files without playing with a build system, worrying about the right libraries. build (very) simple GUI's/ IIs eclipse up to that?
01:27 < jml2> fedorawriter is 22 megs -- etcher is 54
01:27 < SporkWitch> wizzi: check mount options and if it has a physical read-only switch.  if mount options are correct and there's no switch / switch isn't set to read only, that's an indication of a failing flash drive
01:27 < jml2> thadtheman, gambas
01:27 < SporkWitch> thadtheman: you asked for something that will let you work in VB; you have no options but visual studio
01:28 < jml2> thadtheman, theres also something called livecode , i don't remember if livecode does linux console/gui things
01:28 < SporkWitch> thadtheman: if you just want a full-featured IDE for java, use eclipse
01:28 < strength1900> I'll give etcher a try I suppose
01:28 < jml2> thadtheman, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambas
01:29 < thadtheman> jml2: gambas doesn't do java.
01:29 < jml2> it'd be interesting to see a difference between gambas and live code
01:29 < jml2> thadtheman, probably it does with java hooks you'd have to check
01:29 < jml2> thadtheman, if you want java, then the best ide for that is eclipse, but then you need to know how to code "java"
01:29 < ananke> thadtheman: microsoft's visual studio code is decent. what language?
01:29 < wizzi> SporkWitch: i fixed my disks problem...now im with my usb x)...okay ill try it
01:32 < thadtheman> ananke: java
01:34 < wizzi> SporkWitch: when i change it to write and read, after saving i return to it i find no changes
01:36 < SporkWitch> wizzi: pastebin the commands and output
01:37 < mgolisch> id recommmend intelij or eclipse for java
01:37 < wizzi> SporkWitch: how ? "pastebin"
01:38 < SporkWitch> wizzi: what is your native language?
01:38 < wizzi> Arabic,some english..why ?
01:39 < SporkWitch> wizzi: stand by
01:39 < jim> here's my blerb of a pretty good pastebin: you can pastebin the output of an arbitrary command by running "anArbitraryCommand | nc termbin.com 9999", and to include error messages, "anArbitraryCommand 2>&1 | nc termbin.com 9999"
01:39 < ntd> do you sit on pillows placed on the floor?
01:39 < ntd> sure, post arbitrary kernel and debug out to a logging service
01:39 < SporkWitch> ntd: unproductive
01:39 < SporkWitch> jim: language barrier, i have a mate that speaks arabic, getting a translation
01:40 < ntd> oh, if they'd just learn from it it would be
01:40 < ntd> alas
01:40 < jim> what? hey! where are my pillows?!
01:40 < SporkWitch> ntd: i was referring to the pillows comment
01:40 < ntd> works both ways
01:40 < jim> SporkWitch, ok
01:41 < SporkWitch> bah, the slacker is sleeping
01:41 < SporkWitch> wizzi: a pastebin is a site that you can paste a bunch of text to then provide a link (so you aren't filling up the chat with it).  I need the commands you ran, and the output of those commands, to help figure out your issue.
01:42 < SporkWitch> wizzi: examples of pastebin sites include https://paste.linux.community and https://hastebin.com
01:42 < SporkWitch> wizzi: termbin is also really awesome, as you can have it post the output of a command right from your terminal without having to open a browser and copy and paste things manually
01:43 < jim> saves a lot of time and effort
01:43 < jim> annnnd, termbin.com has a git repo :)
01:45 < wizzi> SporkWitch: thank you :)
01:58  * SporkWitch grumbles
01:58 < SporkWitch> literally everything that i used to run in WINE with zero issues is completely nonfunctional now >_<
01:59 < fendur> what do you use in wine?
02:00 < SporkWitch> fendur: handful of games that lack native linux releases
02:01 < SporkWitch> fendur: even EVE Online stopped working, and that has official-unofficial support (one of the devs ported the mac version, which is just a wine wrapper with a custom wine build, to linux)
02:01 < SporkWitch> stuff that's been working great for years, i go just shy of a year on windows and suddenly it's like i'm transported back to the 90's
02:02 < triceratux> https://2ch.hk/s/src/2301366/15254168942580.png
02:03 < xamithan> That sucks,  did your wine get upgraded ?
02:03 < xamithan> Thats one of the reasons I never install a distro package for it
02:04 < SporkWitch> xamithan: i normally use playonlinux, but the devs have apparently diverted nearly all support to version 5 which they're calling phoenicis, and isn't available in packaged form yet.  A lot of the winetricks stuff is no longer working manually either, e.g. msvcp and dotnet
02:05 < SporkWitch> xamithan: i'm sure part of it is the new 18.04 *buntu repos, but still annoying.
02:08 < sir_guy_carleton> is there any way to validate systemd-time time formats, beside just typing it into the program and see if it emits any errors?
02:09 < SporkWitch> sir_guy_carleton: presumably they've done testing before pushing to the repos, but you could script the same kinds of tests.
02:10 < xamithan> Thats what you get for upgrading the week of release ;P
02:10 < SporkWitch> xamithan: not like i'm slacking in my efforts, either.  I even went so far as repackaging Synergy, since it has libcurl3 as a dep, and a bunch of wine and playonlinux stuff needs libcurl4 lol (on the upside, all testing so far indicates no issues with my repackaging to use libcurl4)
02:11 < SporkWitch> xamithan: yeah, you'd think i'd learn after the fiasco that was 16.04.  You'd think something labeled LTS would be, you know, STABLE
02:11 < xamithan> I've never heard any claims of LTS being stable.  Just supported longer,  hehe
02:12 < SporkWitch> xamithan: but hey, at least the package manager and driver wizard actually work; when 16.04 launched both were completely broken, you had to go in and install a half dozen missing deps that weren't flagged
02:12 < jim> nuthin wrong with plain ol debian :)
02:12 < SporkWitch> xamithan: it's a reasonable assumption, though.  LTS releases are targeted at environments where reliability is required
02:13 < SporkWitch> xamithan: and i can't even give up and go back to windows; 50 freakin bucks to get restore media lol
02:13 < fendur> debian++
02:13 < SporkWitch> (though if it performs as advertised, it's almost reasonable for the reduced headaches of tracking down all the drivers and stuff and doing that manually; the default image for this asus rog laptop is actually pretty spiffy, for windows)
02:14 < xamithan> I can use ubuntu PPAs in debian jim ?
02:14 < ntd> too bad deb still don't have secure boot bl
02:14 < SporkWitch> xamithan: debian and *buntus are _not_ binary compatible
02:14 < ntd> totally coincidental
02:14 < kazdax> i am thinking of going my GED and then doing a linux administrator course from ivtech
02:14 < SporkWitch> kazdax: cool story
02:14 < kazdax> ITTech i think its called
02:14 < xamithan> ITT tech is dead
02:15 < ntd> you know how many interviews i've watched in which candidates claim to know *nix?
02:15 < jim> xamithan, no, you'll send yourself to dependency hell and also create a frankendebian if you do that... but, you could build the packages
02:15 < xamithan> I don't want to build the packages.  They update too often
02:15 < kazdax> let me check what institatute it is
02:15 < jim> they might update, but you don't have to :)
02:16 < kazdax> but i am still focusing on getting my RHCSA and RHCSE
02:16 < xamithan> I don't,  but it gives me a nag screen to update on every launch
02:16 < xamithan> If there was something like ublock for software that would be great
02:17 < Loshki> xamithan: running ubuntu ppas on non-ubuntu systems just means you will get neither sympathy nor support
02:17 < kazdax> its IVY tech
02:17 < xamithan> Indiana ?
02:17 < mawk> what's the best way to query the preferred source address for a particular interface ?
02:17 < kazdax> yea
02:18 < ntd> route?
02:18 < ntd> ip r?
02:18 < ntd> then move on further
02:18 < kazdax> Indiana
02:18 < mawk> for a program, ntd
02:18 < kazdax> they have like certificate in network penenration
02:18 < mawk> the best I've done yet is to query the routing table with the output interface set to that particular interface, and the target address to 0.0.0.0/0
02:18 < ntd> oh, that program
02:18 < kazdax> certification in netowrk security
02:18 < kazdax> linux administrator
02:19 < kazdax> i wanna go for the linux admin part
02:19 < SporkWitch> kazdax: unless it's an industry standard cert, it is a scam in every way except being able to sue them for it
02:19 < mawk> then I get the preferred source address in the RTA_PREFSRC attribute
02:19 < mawk> for all the tests I did it seem to work
02:19 < SporkWitch> kazdax: either get an industry-recognized certification or get an actual degree from a reputable university
02:19 < kazdax> its a comunity colledge
02:19 < kazdax> community
02:20 < mawk> that trick doesn't seem to work with ip route get, it refuses zero-length prefixes for ip route get
02:20 < mawk> but who needs ip anyway
02:20 < jim> do you actually learn something with the network security cert?
02:21 < SporkWitch> kazdax: lesson 2: do not take "real" classes at a community college.  Take your pre-reqs, like maths and liberal arts, and make sure your desired REAL uni will accept the credits; you can save money this way.  With almost no exceptions, technical (or any other "real" courses) towards a degree are basically worthless at community colleges
02:21 < kazdax> no idea till i apply for it
02:21 < SporkWitch> kazdax: if the instructors were remotely competent, they wouldn't be there
02:21 < ananke> which network security cert? there are many, and a good portion of them have associated educational materials and trainings
02:21 < jim> mawk, some day you won't have ifconfig to kick around anymore
02:22 < kazdax> i think i will take sporks idea
02:22 < SporkWitch> ananke: he just said "security cert from community college," which almost certainly means it's not a real cert, it's just something that fake school charges you for
02:22 < SporkWitch> ananke: it's basically useless, because no one recognizes it and it doesn't mean anything
02:22 < ananke> ouch, yeah, I wouldn't bother with that at all
02:22 < kazdax> IVY tech is a reputable comunity colledge down here
02:22 < SporkWitch> there's no such thing
02:23 < rascul> that's probably the kind of course you need to setup a wifi router in your house
02:23 < ananke> either way, get your GED first. without it you're going to have a hard time getting a decent job
02:24 < xamithan> Some college or something wanted me to take classes for comptia certifications one year.  They wanted me to get a loan to do them.  I laughed at them and said all I needed was a $35 book on amazon.
02:24 < SporkWitch> or getting into a real school
02:24 < blaztek> kazdax: yes, ivy tech is reputable
02:24 < rascul> colleges look at you funny if you have no diploma or ged
02:24 < SporkWitch> xamithan: you needed the book? :P
02:24 < lupine> dunno about that
02:24 < xamithan> I like physical books for training =/
02:25 < kazdax> i can teach myself justt hat i thought th credit help getting jobs
02:25 < xamithan> It doesn't,  at least not in the USA
02:26 < mawk> yeah jim I meant who needs ip when you can do it with the raw netlink socket
02:26 < mawk> http://paste.suut.in/e6i3XaxX.cpp
02:26 < jim> I guess that's trye
02:26 < SporkWitch> kazdax: a real cert can help, but you're not talking about a real cert.  You're talking about a legal scam to bilk you of money and put you in debt for a piece of paper that isn't recognized by anyone and doesn't mean anything
02:26 < SporkWitch> kazdax: industry standard cert or actual degree from a real uni; anything else is just throwing money away
02:26 < ntd> walk into their head office, make their interviews facilities/wks do arbitrary tasks
02:26 < ntd> "you're welcome"
02:27 < jim> can you get ip to output in something like json?
02:27 < xamithan> You want a decent online program enroll in a WGU IT degree kazdax.   Every class will be a industry certification
02:28 < mawk> doesn't seem so jim
02:28 < mawk> but the netlink way is pretty straightforward, there's just a lot of boilerplate
02:29 < mawk> you just ask RTM_GETROUTE and you get the routing table, add a RTA_DST attribute and you get the one matching route
02:30 < jim> can you do that in python? :)
02:30 < jim> they must have a module for that
02:30 < mawk> yeah of course
02:30 < mawk> it's just a socket
02:30 < mawk> of domain AF_NETLINK
02:31 < j0seph> jim: it's python, there's just about every function under the sun that you can download and import
02:31 < IPoAC> heres a fun one, iptables -L hangs after 1st rule, when -n is added it lists ok
02:31 < j0seph> and if there isn't, well, go and make it!
02:32 < Zharf> IPoAC, dns problem
02:32 < SporkWitch> ^
02:32 < jim> IPoAC, something's up with your dns
02:32 < SporkWitch> IPoAC: do iptables -S for the raw rules, without name resolution
02:32 < IPoAC> lol wow, great one
02:33 < IPoAC> allowed 53 and works just fine
02:33 < mawk> you're filtering OUTPUT then ?
02:33 < IPoAC> thanks jim SporkWitch Zharf
02:33 < mawk> nobody does that
02:33 < mawk> except enterprise firewalls that fear data exfiltration
02:34 < j0seph> i feel i may need a switch up from KDE and try LXQt for a bit
02:34 < j0seph> somebody stop me if this is a bad idea
02:35 < SporkWitch> j0seph: terrible idea; use ratpoison
02:36 < j0seph> SporkWitch: https://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/shot2.png this thing?
02:36 < j0seph> my eyes will get diabetes if i stare at it for too long
02:36 < SporkWitch> j0seph: yes, the one WM to rule them all
02:36 < SporkWitch> J0hnSteel: ah, but you won't develop wrist problems from constantly moving your hand to the rat!
02:37 < j0seph> uh, did you
02:37 < j0seph> mean to mention me?
02:37 < SporkWitch> yes; come up with a more original name
02:37 < j0seph> i wasn't going for originality
02:37 < j0seph> lol
02:37 < xamithan> Do you guys still use trackballs ?
02:38 < SporkWitch> xamithan: i've actually been tempted to pick one up for work
02:38 < blaztek> Not anymore xamithan
02:38 < xamithan> Wondering if I'll have any issues if I upgrade to a new one
02:38 < xamithan> I've been using the same one for like 12 years
02:38 < SporkWitch> xamithan: why would you? there's no difference between a trackball and a regular mouse
02:38 < SporkWitch> xamithan: it works exactly the same way
02:39 < triceratux> j0seph: LXQt is a great alternative to KDE. its starting to assume the role of trinity in that respect. 0.12.0 is quite solid & supported by a number of distros
02:39 < blaztek> SporkWitch: you can spin around in a game faster with a trackball
02:40 < xamithan> I doubt it works exactly the same.  Sometimes certain buttons don't work and need to be remapped or the driver is dead
02:40 < xamithan> or the acceleration is slightly off one way vs another
02:41 < j0seph> triceratux: do not get me wrong, I do like KDE for something that is designed to be chock-full of features. but i find that it just doesn't play well at times: the compositor is.. odd.
02:41 < SporkWitch> blaztek: you can spin around CONTINUOUSLY more easily, though in an FPS a traditional mouse offers superior overall precision and speed.  I'm speaking from a technical standpoint, though.  As far as the OS, and even the USB controller,  is concerned, there's no difference.  The outputs sent to the computer are the same.
02:42 < SporkWitch> blaztek: trackballs can be nice for flight/vehicle controls if you don't have a HOTAS/wheel though
02:42 < blaztek> SporkWitch: true
02:42 < xamithan> I just like them to save my wrist
02:43 < j0seph> brb
02:47 < SporkWitch> xamithan: that's a matter of someone not complying with standards, which is possible given the age of the device you mentioned.
02:47 < SporkWitch> xamithan: in any case, found this https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse?crid=7  shows up on their product list when filtering by linux explicitly.  looks pretty nice, actually, i might pick one up
02:50 < xamithan> I was thinking more of a higher quality than logitech.  Like the elecom ones
02:50 < SporkWitch> i've always found logitech's quality to be quite good; even their cheap stuff is good for the price range.
02:52 < xamithan> From some of the reviews i've seen, elecom is the top trackball brand
02:52 < SporkWitch> never heard of them
02:52 < xamithan> I like logitech but that design doesn't look updated for the past 20 years
02:52 < SporkWitch> it's a mouse, nearly all "design" changes are gimicks that make them LESS comfortable lol
02:53 < xamithan> Heh =)
02:53 < xamithan> I'm sure whatever I get will be great.  Finally give up the non-optical ball
02:55 < ||JD||> In this part of the world Logitech is garbage, the only good thing about them is as they don't have RMA here they send you a replacement without need to send them the broken product
03:01 < treefrob> hello folks. I'm looking for a project that would allow me to dump a whole bunch of performance PKIs into a database and then draw arbitrary graphics of various combinations of single PKIs
03:11 < pnbeast> treefrob, er, Linux?
03:17 < triceratux> jml2: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/05/att-is-blocking-cloudflares-privacy-focused-dns-calls-it-an-accident/
03:19 < jml2> triceratux, no kidding.. "One customer ran a traceroute on April 1 and found that AT&T's Arris 5268AC gateway "has been assigned 1.1.1.1 on an internal interface.""
03:20 < jml2> triceratux, probably intentional that's how At&t can market based on dns queries
03:20 < jml2> triceratux, they'd be losing business
03:20 < triceratux> jml2: is this something only murricans have to deal with or is at&t larger in scope ?
03:20 < xamithan> They still doing that fee to not have advertisements on gigabit ?
03:21 < jml2> triceratux, at&t and bell work together .. but bell has its own regulations under canadian law (it used to be a monopoly)...
03:21 < jml2> triceratux, april 1st is also the day cloudflare announced their service
03:22 < jml2> triceratux, and so at the same time at&t did a rolling update to cut cloudflare out
03:22 < jml2> triceratux, just a coincidence?
03:22 < jml2> lol
03:23 < triceratux> no doubt. thats why im glad i can get dnsmasq to work & im not embracing these shiny new services quite yet ;)
03:23 < IPoAC> iptables question again, is there a way to see what packages are dropped by DROP policy for INPUT? :)
03:25 < pnbeast> If you hang a wee, li'l bucket right against the spot where the ethernet cable plugs into the port, you can see most of them when they fall in.  But if you don't empty it every so often, you'll get a bucket overflow!
03:25 < alienpirate5> test
03:25 < pnbeast> alienpirate5, did you have something real to say?  If so, why didn't you test with that?  If not, why did you bother?
03:25 < alienpirate5> ??
03:26 < pnbeast> alienpirate5, I said "you're making useless noise".
03:27 < IPoAC> thanks pnbeast, I will try for sure! :) alienpirates5, thing is I would but it has quite a few rules, I cant put my finger on any, when I set INPUT policy to ACCEPT it does not drop
03:27 < IPoAC> if I was to do ACCEPT and check every package it might be a bit of a havoc to find which ones I need to accept as well
03:27 < alienpirate5> I had a network disconnect and my nickname was set wrong because of the server thinking I was still connected originally. I wanted to change my nickname back but got the message "banned from channel". This is probably because the nick I had (wat) was either actually banned or I was unregistered. I had to disconnect, change the nickname, and reconnect. I was checking to make sure I wasn't actually banned
03:28 < alienpirate5> IPoAC I didn't mean to test the iptables policies - I was testing IRC connection :P
03:28 < alienpirate5> oh yeah forgot to mention pnbeast
03:29 < pnbeast> That's okay.  I won't be ranting at you any more.
03:29 < IPoAC> all good <3 alienpirates5
03:30 < jcarder_> SporkWitch, jim: got an error while trying to remove sddm (to reinstall). "dpkg: unrecoverable fatal error, aborting:"
03:31 < jcarder_> says that perl may be unconfigured
03:31 < jml2> triceratux, hahaha... no that tells you how "revolutionary" it is...
03:32 < jml2> triceratux, ISPs hate this
03:32 < jml2> triceratux, because encrypted dns with cloudflare gives you privacy
03:32 < jml2> triceratux, cloudflare protect the EFF site against DDOS against, and the EFF protect cloudflare as a legal firm..
03:32 < jml2> triceratux, you can trust cloudflare... they're good
03:32 < lupine> no
03:33 < lupine> cloudflare bad
03:33 < jml2> lupine, shutup kid
03:33 < lupine> m8
03:33 < triceratux> jml2: in the meantime whats the fastest way for me to start getting dnssec to work ?
03:33 < jim> jcarder_, what was the command you used?
03:33 < theguy35> hello all, ive never been in an irc before
03:34 < jml2> triceratux, that is the fastest way, just use cloudflared, set a systemd unit file, set the setting in dnsmasq, and voila
03:34 < jml2> triceratux, tcpdump -i <interface> -n host 1.1.1.1
03:34 < lupine> you need to generate DS records and upload them to your parent NSes. it's pretty easy
03:34 < lupine> it doesn't require cloudflare
03:34 < jml2> triceratux, the binary is at cloudflare's site titled 'argo tunnel'
03:35 < lupine> if powerdns is your authoritative ns, it's actually trivial
03:35 < jml2> triceratux, they don't have a "full package" for it despite there being .rpm and .deb, these contain the same one file as their tarball -- they were lazy in doing a full package :)
03:35 < triceratux> jml2: cool. im keeping an eye on it https://blog.cloudflare.com/argo-tunnel/
03:35  * pnbeast awards a gold star to theguy35.
03:37 < jim> which is worse, goldstar or packard bell?
03:38 < pnbeast> I had a friend who had a packard bell.  I don't want to know about anything worse.
03:39 < jcarder_> jim: just sudo apt remove
03:57 < Prospero_1> hello
03:57 < dannylee> hell low
03:58 < Prospero_1> my dad is showing me irc
03:58 < pnbeast> Sounds like bad parenting...
03:58 < mutante> hahah,welcome to IRC
03:58 < mutante> Prospero_1: sup
03:59 < Prospero_1> i am good
03:59 < jml2> Prospero_1, how fast can you type? lol
04:00 < Prospero_1> not very fast
04:00 < mutante> game for training: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Typing_of_the_Dead
04:00 < jml2> Prospero_1, you playing any cool games yet on Linux? XD
04:00 < cmj> say hi to your dad
04:01 < Prospero_1> i run linux on virtualbox
04:01 < dannylee> with a little bit of cocaine i really type fast???
04:01 < cmj> is that a statement of fact?
04:02 < ayecee> more a request
04:02 < cmj> hehe
04:30 < jml2> lost power for a couple mins
04:30 < jml2> teheeheh
04:30 < jml2> sudo reboot
04:45 < jml2> windy
04:51 < jml2> triceratux, bionic beaver very hungry for us canadians
04:51 < jml2> triceratux, beavers are our prime minted animal on our nickels..
04:52  * jml2 https://news.softpedia.com/news/ubuntu-18-10-daily-build-isos-are-now-available-to-download-520967.shtml
04:52 < triceratux> jml2: they say 18.10 will be cosmic
04:57 < Bunk> Does anybody know how to delete empty lines in kwrite, so that there is no space between lines ?
04:57 < Bunk> :-)
04:58 < jml2> cool there's a .best tld around with hover
04:58 < jml2> hahahha neat..
04:59 < jml2> Bunk, kwrite?
05:00 < jml2> Bunk, that's so 1990s
05:00 < Bunk> hmm
05:00 < Bunk> i find it ok
05:00 < jml2> i believe kate was supposed to replace that
05:00 < Bunk> what is better ?
05:00 < jml2> or are they the same thing
05:00 < Bunk> kate
05:01 < jml2> "KWrite is a simple text editor built on the KDE Platform. It uses the Kate
05:01 < jml2>  editor component"
05:01 < Bunk> i dont think there is much difference, i dont like it tooo modern
05:01 < jml2> i wouldn't know atm..
05:02 < Bunk> windows all in all was too colorful for me. Im more relaxed with Linux
05:04 < storge> you can make windows pretty bland. you can make them even more bland in linux
05:08 < Bunk> yes, i dimmed win back then
05:14 < jml2> funny with enough pressure from the french in my province, there's a .quebec tld XDXD
05:17 < Bunk> What you guys mainly doing on Linux, except for normal stuff like mailing or listening to audio
05:18 < c-c> if you are not doing it on linux, you are DIW
05:18  * jml2 is net admin somewhere in southern quebec
05:18 < jml2> some folks here breathe linux for their IT professions
05:18 < Bunk> i see
05:19 < jml2> others ask for advice on certifications
05:19 < jml2> (rh, lpic, etc..)
05:19 < Bunk> thought so. Im a mere mortal only *lol
05:19 < WorldGenesis[v]> i use it everyday for work o.o
05:19 < WorldGenesis[v]> + home
05:19 < Bunk> Im doing all on one computer. I think of getting another one or cheap laptop and spread activity
05:20 < jml2> Bunk, and you'd be interestsed to know MS released their first linux distro few weeks ago...
05:20 < Bunk> Microsoft ?
05:20 < stevendale> Hi
05:20 < jml2> Bunk, so Windows-fan boys aside, tell clueless people this is not fiction but fact
05:20 < Bunk> o/
05:20 < jml2> Bunk, y.
05:20 < jml2> Bunk, (sphereos)
05:21 < jml2> Bunk, the criteria for a distro to be called a distro, is to be using the linux kernel.
05:21 < Bunk> true
05:21 < jml2> Bunk, however they built the distro for their embedded cloud services
05:21 < stevendale> Well Arch Linux 32 has been a nightmare...
05:21 < storge> microsoft released a linux?
05:21 < jml2> Bunk, it's not considered a full-fledged PC distro as one might think
05:21 < storge> microsoft released a linux distro?
05:21 < jml2> Bunk, that would be very inaccurate
05:21 < WorldGenesis[v]> storge: yes o.o
05:21 < c-c> stevendale: you bit off more you can chew?
05:21 < stevendale> c-c: Nah
05:21 < storge> interesting
05:21 < stevendale> I can handle arch fine
05:21 < jml2> storge, old news, y.. it's sphereos
05:21 < Bunk> Linux has forced Microsoft to build Win10, so i'm not really surprised here
05:21 < WorldGenesis[v]> Apple released their own "linux"
05:21 < WorldGenesis[v]> >.>
05:22 < c-c> stevendale: rrright
05:22 < jml2> WorldGenesis[v], yeah 1999... mklinux
05:22 < stevendale> c-c: Hahah
05:22 < storge> is it a test thing or a product with a real purpose?
05:22 < c-c> B)
05:22 < jml2> WorldGenesis[v], earlier i think 1996-97 era
05:22 < stevendale> c-c: You think I'm not serious? XD
05:22 < stevendale> c-c: I've been distro hopping since the release of Ubuntu 12.10
05:22 < jml2> WorldGenesis[v], mklinux is even slightly mentioned in recent Apple kernel documentation in a margin note.
05:23 < WorldGenesis[v]> aww that's nice :D
05:23 < jml2> WorldGenesis[v], and its site still exists for historical reasons
05:23 < c-c> stevendale: so whats wrong with the legacy Arch
05:23 < jml2> storge, y it for their cloud services
05:23 < jml2> storge, 30%+ of their cloud clients are using linux
05:23 < stevendale> c-c: My laptop has a 32-bit processor and Arch dropped it
05:24 < jml2> storge, but it still fits the definition of distro, so news came out as it did
05:24 < Bunk> stevendale: maybe bunsenlabs
05:24 < c-c> stevendale: well supposedly Arch Linux 32 is for you, whats the prob
05:25 < Bunk> Ah, i encountered a problem. In my drakx firewall, al entries vanished.
05:25 < stevendale> c-c: X.org crashes after exactly 60.00 seconds after starting the display manager
05:25 < c-c> stevendale: so thats your "nightmare"?
05:25 < Bunk> I added new and announced them to the router, but transmission can not receive
05:25 < snugger> stevendale: What distro are you using again?
05:26 < Bunk> where could be the problem ?
05:26 < stevendale> snugger: Arch Linux 32-bit, going to Debian Stretch
05:26 < snugger> There's your problem
05:26 < stevendale> I'm using the community maintained 32-bit Arch
05:26 < stevendale> It's a thing
05:26 < jml2> Bunk, you using mageia-based distro --- drakx
05:27 < Bunk> yes, mageia 6
05:27 < jml2> Bunk, i haven't use that in a long time... i believe some of their manpages is lacking
05:27 < jml2> maybe i have mageia already in vm
05:28 < jml2> y, it's here.. i tried mageia 6 not long ago, but i used to use it much more often long before
05:28 < Bunk> i wonder, how that happened, since i didn't change anything
05:28 < jml2> mageia is great
05:28 < jml2> booting mageia
05:28 < stevendale> It requires too much RAM
05:29 < jml2> lol
05:29 < Bunk> Yes, all ini all, it is working well
05:29 < jml2> funny i installed it and never logged in.. hahah post-install prompts
05:29 < jml2> XDXDD
05:30 < jml2> wow..
05:30 < jml2> mageia removes the password for the root login on tty2
05:30 < jml2> ?
05:30 < jml2> i can just type "root" and no password and i'm in
05:31 < jml2> scratch ... its the live iso XD
05:31  * jml2 slaps himself
05:31 < Bunk> haha
05:31 < stevendale> Brb o3o
05:31 < jml2> sometimes the "boot from disk" never works
05:32 < jml2> and should never be trusted
05:32 < Bunk> well, we must not solve the problem today
05:32 < jml2> (when the cd is in boot)
05:32 < jml2> ok i booted
05:33 < jml2> yeah its drakfirewall
05:33 < jml2> and i can see it here in terminal..
05:34 < jml2> but i am running it from the root account..
05:34 < jml2> .you may need to be sudo if you're running it as non-root
05:34 < jml2> ./to use sudo./
05:34 < jml2> i'm a fan of mageia and would tell people to try it...
05:35 < Bunk> im in the Control center at the moment
05:35 < jml2> Bunk, i wonder how you broked it
05:35 < zap0> anyone recommend a tiny ISO i can use on a USB key to boot a box, then format a platter to NTFS or Fat32 ?
05:35 < Bunk> It is a miracle for me either. Normally, it was all fine, but i changed the router, but reinstalled the configuration
05:36 < c-c> zap0: bunsen
05:36 < Bunk> yes
05:36 < c-c> zap0: plain debian
05:36 < Bunk> jml2:  What is the command for firewall in termainal, please ?
05:36 < jml2> Bunk, take a screen snapshot
05:36 < jml2> Bunk, i believe you gave it
05:36 < c-c> all debian images are bootable, afaik
05:36 < jml2> Bunk, more or less, you said it was drak*
05:37 < Bunk> ok
05:37 < jml2> Bunk, how did you know it was "drak" sometihng?
05:37 < jml2> Bunk, it doesn't say "drak" on the front-end interface
05:37 < zap0> c-c,  bunsen ISO is 1.1gig...  that's not tiny!
05:37 < Bunk> I thought i read it somewhere in MCC
05:37 < c-c> yeah well
05:38 < jml2> Bunk, the front-end interface have their equivalent drak* counterpart for many sysadmin things
05:38 < jml2> Bunk, the package center has urpm* and dnf* things..
05:38 < jml2> Bunk, drakfirewall is the command
05:39 < Bunk> thanks jml2
05:39 < Bunk> worked
05:40 < pnbeast> I'm pretty sure the win patching at work, the past couple of days, was on the order of a GB.
05:41 < storge> a gigabyte of spaghetti
05:41 < Bunk> jml2:  Yeah, both ports for transmission are ticked in the firewall, but transmissions says, it is closed
05:46 < jml2> Bunk, so you're servicing torrents to your computer? you'll also need to ensure your routerbox is enabling traffic through
05:47 < Bunk> yes, i added an exception for the ports ( tcp and udp )
05:48 < jml2> Bunk, looks like mageia by default uses shorewall
05:49 < jml2> Bunk, so perhaps if you did something that added odd rules to shorewall instead of general stanzas provided by drak things then that might be an issue
05:49 < jml2> lol
05:49 < jml2> there's many custom chains when i look at iptables
05:50 < Bunk> hmm, can not remember having added strange things, since i usually keep my hands off of the iptables
05:52 < jml2> zap0, ntfs?  you mean like for the efi partition? that shold be fat16 or fat32 ..
05:53 < zap0> jml2  nah.. just a big fat dumb spare HDD.. i want to make it NTFS..  then mount it on a windows machine.    but i want it cleaned before it goes anywhere near the windows machine.
05:53 < jml2> zap0, gparted live iso-- https://gparted.org/features.php
05:54 < Bunk> # iptables --list - i don't really understand, what is written there
05:54 < jml2> Bunk, i'm not sure what you're after because that firewall app is simple enough to use... sounds like you are having an issue with transmission
05:54 < zap0> jml2, ok..   im currently stumbling about trying to get a USB to boot..   i tried a ubunbtu mini FAILED.  trying to download a knoppix.. and that's got broken mirrors :(
05:55 < jml2> zap0, try fedorawrite or etcher to write the iso to usb
05:55 < Bunk> it is almost the same problem in amule. I can receive, but low id
05:56 < zap0> jml2, thanks for the tips;  but in my current location, all i have is a windows machine.  using an app called YUMI to build a USB-bootable.
05:56 < jml2> zap0, yeah so?
05:56 < jml2> zap0, fedorawriter and etcher have windows builds
05:57 < jml2> zap0, these tools shouldnt be touching the boot metadata-- im not sure yumi does -- iirc it does..
05:57 < jml2> zap0, so it would be better to try one of these two alternatives (not yumi)
05:58 < zap0> jml2, ok.  downloading gparted.iso now...  25mins
05:58 < jml2> zap0, i know unetbootin does -- so that's why i prefer not to suggesting it
05:58 < jml2> zap0, yeah its about 200 megs..
05:58 < jml2> zap0, but it serves very well for things
05:58 < zap0> gparted is 318Meg
05:58 < jml2> zap0, I used to use knoppix very often back in the older days lol
05:59 < zap0> i tried it cause i still had a copy of it (saved me 25mins of waiting for the download :)
05:59 < jml2> you should be using the latest, always improvements
06:00 < jml2> oh you're in australia, the worst of internet among english countries
06:00 < jml2> lol
06:00 < Bunk> jml2: did you manage to install knoppix ?
06:00 < jml2> Bunk, ?
06:00 < jml2> Bunk, wtf?
06:00 < jml2> Bunk, it's not a recommended installation distro
06:00 < jml2> Bunk, you could use it as live-persistent ...
06:00 < jml2> Bunk, but i dont use that..
06:00 < Bunk> thought so. I tried, but failed. lol
06:01 < jml2> Bunk, knoppix has been around for longer than i can think
06:01 < Psi-Jack> Bah, knoppix is a youngin.
06:01 < jml2> Bunk, before even google and wikipedia existed..
06:01 < Bunk> it is very good from dvd
06:01 < zap0> jml2, woohoo~!  i got a lubuntu live to boot!    back in 5
06:02 < djvb> zap0, etcher worked for me earlier today in win 10 to create a bootable antergos USB from iso
06:02 < jml2> zap0, live linux distros tend not to carry ntfs-3g
06:02 < jml2> zap0, gparted live would have it
06:02 < jml2> zap0, see that? etcher works!
06:03 < jml2> zap0, you're starting to become a freeloader just like triceratuxie
06:03 < zap0> im still witing no gparted to download... so in the meantime... will see if this lubuntu has a ntfs-3g
06:03 < zap0> waiting on/
06:03 < jml2> zap0, 300 megs would consume you're entire monthly bandwidth in australia LOL
06:04 < jml2> zap0, do they yey have more than 5mbit ? XDXDX
06:04 < jml2> zap0, you need to hop out of that kangaroo circus
06:04 < Psi-Jack> Sheash. heh. I do about 1TB/mo in data transfers, per month.
06:05 < jml2> zap0, sorry but australia is suck internet
06:06 < pnbeast> Psi-Jack, young one, not youngin, for future correctness.
06:06 < Psi-Jack> Youngin. :p
06:07 < pnbeast> Psi-Jack, sheesh, not sheash, for future correctness.
06:07 < Psi-Jack> Well, I'm kinda glad I wrote a nice fancy little znc-based plugin to handle timed ignores. :)
06:08 < pnbeast> Psi-Jack, 1TB/mo in data transfers, full stop, for future decreased redundancy.
06:09 < jml2> time for me to order my new domain once again
06:10 < jml2> gotta make sure i have my privacy setting set, that's like standing naked with my pants down in the middle of the street
06:12 < blaztek> jml2: use namecheap: https://affiliate-link/here
06:13 < Psi-Jack> I definitely never recommend namecheap as a DNS registrar. They are pretty sleezy.
06:13 < jml2> i use hover
06:13 < Psi-Jack> Hover (Aka formerly TuCows?) is pretty good
06:13 < jml2> of course they're good.. better than stupid godaddy
06:13 < jml2> lol
06:14 < Psi-Jack> Godaddy is right down there with sleezy namecheap.
06:14 < jml2> godaddy has all these tard vps-bindings..
06:14 < jml2> doesn't give a direct dns-only control management..
06:14 < jml2> or at least makes it confusing enough .
06:15 < bomb> I recommend NameSilo
06:15 < jml2> it's funny the recommendation lists when searchin for domain names..
06:15 < bomb> free lifetime domain privacy
06:15 < Psi-Jack> I use Gandi primarily for my registrar. EIther them directly or since I've been doing a lot of AWS stuff lately, AWS Route53 is a Gandi partner that offers the DNS at slightly reduced costs.
06:15 < Psi-Jack> Gandi's the same, free domain privacy for life.
06:16 < jml2> Psi-Jack, if you have an organization of worthy floss-value, cloudflared has a program called the galileo project, which they would offer free ddos protection for your domain
06:16 < jml2> Psi-Jack, that's how i came up reading on eff+cloudflared working for a common cause..
06:17 < jml2> Psi-Jack, and came to understand more on cloudflared..
06:17  * jml2 https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/05/att-is-blocking-cloudflares-privacy-focused-dns-calls-it-an-accident/
06:17 < jml2> triceratux send that earlier above when i came in
06:17 < jml2> lol
06:17 < jml2> cloudflared is good.
06:18 < jml2> interesting gandi protects eff as well
06:18 < jml2> reading its wikipedia page here
06:18 < jml2> so i suppose i can trust your word on that Psi-Jack  :p
06:18 < jml2> they must be good then to some degree
06:19 < Psi-Jack> Yep. :)
06:19 < Psi-Jack> Their slogan means business: No bullshit.
06:21 < LiftLeft>  does anyone know how to use MoreLikeThis on solr? I'm guessing not. I'm waiting for someone to respond on #solr
06:26 < Bunk> Can i somehow "reset" my firewall ?
06:28 < cmj> iptables flush?
06:29 < Bunk> hmm, i don't know how to handle this
06:29 < jml2> he's using drakfirewall and i think that uses shorewall/iptables as its backend
06:30 < Psi-Jack> iptables -F
06:30 < jml2> Psi-Jack, he should be sticking with the drak* things (he's on mageia)
06:30 < jml2> tehehe
06:30 < cmj> …but still
06:30 < jml2> though i have no idea if he touched anything outside drak* things..
06:30 < jml2> he's have to revert any changes outside
06:31 < cmj> you can iptables-save > file and derp about
06:31 < cmj> i have no idea what drak is, so
06:35 < Bunk> for torrenting, it says: -A Ifw -p udp -m conntrack --ctstate NEW -m udp --dport myport -j IFWLOG--log-prefix "NEW"
06:35 < jim> are there ipv6 addresses that corespond to ip4 addresses?
06:36 < cmj> yes?
06:37 < notmike> Yet another backdoor found in Debian
06:38 < cmj> …dubious
06:38 < neoncortex> wich backdoor?
06:39 < cmj> like the 2004 bsd backdoor vuln?
06:39  * cmj winks
06:39 < jml2> jim, i believe it is ipv4-to-ipv6 rather
06:40 < jml2> jim, it has some ipv4 decimals within the ipv6 addressing
06:40 < jml2> jim, it needs to have leading zeros somewhere for it to be compliant with a standard..
06:40 < notmike> If a user opens a port in Debian that has a known exploit, an attacker from inside the subnet or outside it (who had knowledge of the port) can run the exploit and gain privileged access to the Debian.
06:41 < jml2> jim, perhaps you're right on 6 in 4 -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6in4
06:41 < jml2> not sure where i read what i thought i did -- was some time ago (cisco things)
06:42 < cmj> hop into #networking, but you can prefix ipv4 encapsulated with :: prefix iirc
06:45 < neoncortex> notmike: wich port? tell more =D
06:45 < jml2> notmike, its good to have a firewall set
06:45 < jml2> notmike, i dont think debian sets one up by default as some other distros
06:45 < jml2> notmike, rpc/nfs on a wan port is not a good thing
06:45 < notmike> Why?
06:46 < neoncortex> neonpastor: because I'm running Debian ..
06:46 < neoncortex> ops, notmike ^
06:46 < cmj> shrug
06:47 < jml2> notmike, rpc for nfs has become more deprecated with nfsv4 which doesnt need rpc
06:47 < jml2> notmike, and most users do not ever use it
06:47 < cmj> it's stupidsauce. why are debian users at fault for this per se?
06:47 < notmike> Oh, you mean specifically rpc for nfs and not just any rpc?
06:48 < cmj> and who uses rpc?
06:48 < notmike> Criminals
06:48 < cmj> ok
06:48 < jml2> old legacy servers may use-- commonly nfs2-3 ... but the newer nfsv4 doesn't need it
06:48 < jml2> so first thing i do is to disable it
06:48 < jml2> even though i have a firewall that always blocks it
06:48 < jml2> rpc listens to anonymous requests
06:49 < cmj> debian doesn't install rpc server unless requested
06:49 < jml2> iirc it installs rpc/nfs for years..
06:49 < jml2> dunno about stretch though
06:49 < cmj> and for sure patches are out if you are concerned about local vulns
06:49 < jml2> probably still does
06:49 < cmj> sigh
06:49 < notmike> Various servers run rpc interfaces.
06:49 < neoncortex> it does, I have to disble it in every install
06:49 < notmike> But it's almost always less secure to do it on Debian machine
06:50 < neoncortex> #disable
06:50 < cmj> ☝
06:50 < jml2> i think a certain part of samba would like to have it in order to have  greater compatibiity for windows clients
06:51 < cmj> what distro enables smb, etc for basic installs?
06:51 < jml2> i dunno if that's samba's own rpc or another external package
06:51  * cmj cringes
06:52 < jim> dunno, I'd say none as smb is a microsoft thing... maybe it still has an smb module for the kernel
06:52 < jml2> its too babbly for me,.. been awhile sinc ei touched samba
06:53 < cmj> the kernel does have smb for a fs module…
06:53 < jml2> smb/cifs
06:53 < Bunk> I g2g. Thanks for assisting. Will read that up and maybe flush and rewrite the rules
06:53 < jml2> its now called cifs for last couple years..
06:53 < cmj> not sure where this is going
06:53 < jml2> Bunk, your problem is not clear
06:53 < cmj> yeah cifs
06:54 < Bunk> welp
06:54 < Bunk> hard to describe when you are not an expert
06:54 < jml2> Bunk, y.. because i did mention to check the ports on your router..
06:54 < jml2> Bunk, lol
06:54 < cmj> there are many 'firewall' tools that just are fancy frontends to iptables
06:54 < Psi-Jack> jml2: "why"
06:54 < jml2> Bunk, requests will never meet your machine when another box in front of it is blocking those ports
06:54 < cmj> get to know iptables and figure out why things break
06:55 < neoncortex> iptables are hard if you are not an expert I tell you
06:55 < Bunk> yes, i need to read the f manuals. Well, i just portforwarded the transmission ports in my router and thought it will be fine
06:55 < jml2> he wants torrent requests to reach his machine (he wants 'transmission' set up)
06:55 < cmj> flush iptables (keep port fowards) and implement rules from there to see where things break
06:55 < Sapphirus> There's such a thing as documentation or mantables.
06:56 < jml2> i suppose that's what he's after
06:56 < cmj> hehe
06:56 < Sapphirus> man iptables*
06:56 < cmj> speaking of which. i just found this tool
06:56 < jml2> i dont know how well transmission does "fierwall punching" ...
06:57 < Psi-Jack> Probably "UPnP" or PMP.
06:57  * jml2 ducks
06:57 < cmj> https://aria2.github.io
06:57  * Bunk smokes
06:57 < cmj> you can use it with youtube-dl too
06:58 < Bunk> cmj: and i can use the saved file for restoring in case flush goes wrong `?
06:59 < cmj> yes
06:59 < notmike> Youtube-dl violates YouTube's tos off topic
06:59 < notmike> !ops piracy
06:59 < Bunk> ugh
06:59  * cmj shudders
07:00 < jim> notmike, are yuou telling on yourself? :)
07:00 < cmj> Bunk: yeah you can use iptables -S ? to get the lines
07:00 < notmike> Lol
07:00 < cmj> you just have a script that re-inserts rules
07:01 < cmj> iptables-restore
07:01 < jim> oh I see
07:01 < cmj> get to know iptables at it's core
07:02 < cmj> we use fail2ban too which is also a fancy filter/iptables deamon
07:02 < Psi-Jack> Nah, OSSEC > fail2ban
07:02 < cmj> ‼
07:02 < cmj> i will look Psi-Jack
07:02 < Bunk> can one hide when using youtube-dl ?
07:03 < cmj> hide what?
07:03 < jml2> ossec runs a phony root-detection feature... might as well run aide
07:03 < jml2> lol
07:03 < Psi-Jack> cmj: Uses a lot less memory, does a lot more,. :)
07:03 < Psi-Jack> phony? No, it runs a md5 hash check of configured directories for each file, and can send a report on any changed files.
07:03 < cmj> l7 is pretty heavy
07:03 < cmj> does it do the same?
07:03 < jml2> Psi-Jack, aide does that :PP
07:04 < Psi-Jack> In addition to analyzing logs.
07:04 < jml2> Psi-Jack, that's basic integrity file checking..
07:04 < cmj> so many iptables hashing. layer7 was a nasty bitch that was used to combat torrents
07:04 < cmj> but super overhead
07:05 < jml2> fail2ban is nice, but if someone sets up iptables with the connlimit that will cut out a lot of logging before it happens
07:05 < cmj> i just use fail2ban and i'm happy. will consider other options.
07:05 < cmj> these are log filters tho
07:05 < cmj> nothing real-tiem
07:06 < cmj> no overhead
07:06 < jml2> fail2ban is nice its very configurable.. but i just mentioned it is good to have as a complementary (add-on)
07:06 < cmj> yep
07:06 < jml2> helps even if one uses conn-limit with iptables
07:06 < cmj> l7 is real-time and quite frankly a joke, but if you have servers that can parse every packet; hire me
07:07 < jml2> and there's -j nlog  one can use with iptables.. for much more advanced things...
07:07 < jml2> i never used nlog features
07:07 < Psi-Jack> Yeah, but fail2ban uses around 100~200mb of memory, isn't network-linked. OSSEC uses ~35MB, is network-linked, and can react with firewall rules on a large scale, rather than a single host.
07:07 < jml2> that'd be interesting..
07:07 < cmj> conntrack uses it too
07:07 < cmj> you need loggin for conntrack
07:08 < cmj> fail2ban does 'tail' log files, but it's not active like iptables filters
07:08 < jml2> fail2ban is made to work with iptables by default..
07:08 < cmj> so it's less intesive
07:08 < jml2> so the two are complementary
07:08 < Psi-Jack> And connlimit, that's just cheap, but not really that good. OSSEC can react on multiple levels. First offense, 5 minutes. Second offense, 1 day. Third offense, 1 month.
07:08 < jml2> Psi-Jack, its' cheap and very effective lol
07:09 < cmj> conntrack rules ++
07:09 < Psi-Jack> No, very IN-effective.
07:09 < jml2> Psi-Jack, if you know iptables, you can do all kinds of things by marking source ip addressses -- like blacklisting an ip for 2 minutes
07:09 < cmj> yeah every server needs fail2ban or variants
07:09 < jml2> Psi-Jack, i mentioned it is complementary, and not a full solution in by itself..
07:10 < cmj> drop derpy packets
07:10 < jml2> fail2ban added on top helps..
07:10 < cmj> there's no question f2b is a solid choice
07:10 < Psi-Jack> Heh, on top? No.
07:11 < Psi-Jack> You negate the whole usefulness of log analysis by blocking traffic with connlimit, because, guess what? It stops logging, because it's blocking traffic. :)
07:11 < jim> cmj, fail2ban does work well... except, it's pretty ram intensive, and (according to Psi-Jack) ossec is not as much
07:11 < jml2> the cool thing with iptables, is there can be a "penalty" rule added, -- set a "2 minute" of no syn-connect activity, otherwise restart the 2 minute ban delay..
07:11 < jml2> so if a rogue user doesn't wait at least 2 minutes, the counter resets...
07:11 < jml2> that user has no idea a counter is in effect and for how long
07:11 < Bunk> Going to read this and log in later. Cya guys
07:12 < jml2> that prevents the logs from unnecesarily growing very fast...
07:12 < cmj> the lag is logfile write. and pocesses to follow them. it is still just a frontend to iptables, which i was getting at
07:17 < jml2> cmj, bunk's problem i think is not linux fierwall, but rather something with his application and/or router box (previously left)
07:17 < jml2> cmj, drak*/shorewall things who knows how mageia uses these...
07:17 < jml2> to me it looks like 2 front-ends lol
07:20 < cmj> reminds me of when people barked about nocat being dead
07:21 < cmj> it still does its job of manipulating iptables rules
07:21 < jml2> i hope iptables still stays with bpf ...
07:21 < jml2> no way i could adapt to its syntax.. been using iptables for years..
07:22 < jml2> lol
07:26 < cmj> #networking can be fun. but mostly old cisco ppl
07:28 < cmj> great channel though.
07:29 < jml2> cmj, older means wiser
07:29 < jml2> cmj, lol
07:29 < jml2> cmj, !!!
07:29 < cmj> ☻
07:30 < aBound> Sometimes, being older doesn't necessarily pertain to being wiser just sayin' :P
07:30 < cmj> old nerd ☝
07:30  * aBound creates a box of goodies 
07:30 < aBound> 👍
07:30 < jml2> aBound, and being younger doesn't necessarily mean independent XD
07:30 < jim> like anything, sometimes yes, sometimes no
07:30 < edgeit> Well, I used to think that when I was a 20 year old IT nerd.  Now at 53 not so much
07:31 < cmj> cheers, edgeit
07:31 < aBound> jml2: Teehee being independent don't people still have roommates. :P
07:31 < aBound> 🙌
07:32 < cmj> i'm well behind you but have deep respect and admiration for tech elders
07:33 < cmj> as long as you don't ask me how to install AOL we're good
07:33  * aBound installs AOL please wait...
07:33 < edgeit> Well as long as you have the passion to keep up on tech then age is just a number..
07:34  * aBound AOL don' broke my Linux install 
07:34 < cmj> remember that stack of redhat 3½ disks
07:34  * jml2 is busy with his dns things 
07:34 < cmj> ok aging myself
07:34 < edgeit> Oh...I remember those AOL CD's ..
07:34 < jml2> man pita dns killing me
07:35 < cmj> those aol discs came in magazines
07:35 < cmj> christ
07:35 < jml2> i remember when aol used to be big.. i almost subscribed to it until i found out it had no javascript
07:36 < cmj> oh i for sure did aol in 1994
07:36 < aBound> There used to be a bug in those AOL trial disc when the trial ran out. You would still be able to login though you would be charged.
07:36 < chatquack> hi hi, jml2, wasn't aol birthed before javascript?
07:36 < cmj> i still use yougotmail.wav for mail notifies
07:37 < edgeit> Is anyone old enough to remember the "Well" BBS system?
07:37 < jml2> ecma was being used with other browsers, aol intentionally was trying to be "the web of things" and had their own army of editors
07:37 < chatquack> spitfire ftw
07:37 < cmj> i know bbs for sure but it was r.a.i.n
07:37 < jim> aol used something that was renamed to aolserver (was called naviserv, which still exists)
07:37 < cmj> rain, portland.
07:37 < cmj> random access internet network
07:37 < jml2> essentially aol should of bought wikipedia by the way they were running their business
07:37 < jml2> lol
07:38 < chatquack> rough
07:38 < jml2> its true
07:38 < cmj> no that is yahoo
07:38 < aBound> NETTY NET NETSCAPE.
07:38 < edgeit> Man..Those were the days...I would connect up with my 300 baud modem acoustic coupler.  Aging myself
07:38 < chatquack> mmmm nutscrape
07:39 < cmj> i still follow jwz
07:39 < aBound> The birth of Firefox.
07:39 < cmj> i'm on firefox nighly
07:39 < cmj> nightly
07:39  * jim aims a pea shooter at a stuck caps lock...
07:39 < chatquack> yes!!! i missed out on the acoustic coupler. love the movie weird science though
07:39 < cmj> keeps me abreast
07:39 < cmj> haha
07:39 < aBound> I'm more of an official release Firefox user. :P
07:40 < aBound> But hey, everyone's different. :P
07:40 < jim> chatquack, acousic couplers were a pita
07:40 < chatquack> i believe it! hehehe
07:40 < jim> sometimes they worked well
07:40 < chatquack> i got on with a 2400 baud i think.. .good times
07:40 < SuperSeriousCat> cmj, why would you do that? Cant wait to have more data collected about you? https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2018/04/30/a-privacy-conscious-approach-to-sponsored-content/
07:40 < aBound> I have to decide between Ubuntu Budgie or Ubuntu MATE. Can't be using that Gnome shell.
07:41 < edgeit> I wish I would have save it ...It was in war games...Rotary dial the phone, hear the tone and drop it into the coupler.
07:41 < jim> acoustic couplers were like 110 and 300 baus
07:41 < jim> d
07:41 < cmj> notice tabs in title https://i.imgur.com/toci2Xi.png
07:42 < chatquack> that's hot and awesome. isn't 300 baud the fcc limit on HF packet radio? *giggles*
07:42 < jim> my first computer was an imsai (war games kid's computer)
07:42 < edgeit> Abound. Check out Solus Budgie.  I have since migrated to Kubutu 18.04 but I am a serial distro hopper...I will likely go back to Solus when 4.0 is released
07:42 < jim> I still got it :)
07:42 < edgeit> Jim..Yeah..You would see the text letters painting across the screen one at a time.
07:43 < cmj> i'm just an rf fan now
07:43 < cmj> need to purchase another radio
07:43 < aBound> edgeit: Teehee learning a new package manager sounds like it'll be a headache. Isn't Solus identical to Arch?
07:43 < chatquack> cmj, my only "hf" radio is 10 meter, not sure if that counts
07:43 < cmj> you++
07:44  * chatquack waits for Sol to wake up
07:44 < cmj> chatquack: http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901
07:44 < edgeit> Abound...Actually, not really.  It is a completely independent Linux Distro written from scratch...The package manager is eopkg with a nice package manager front end.  I really enjoyed it but was seduced by the KDE eye candy
07:44 < cmj> chatquack: so fun, that
07:45 < edgeit> abound https://solus-project.com/
07:45 < chatquack> ooh ya, i have that bookmarked, cmj. fun stuff right there. easy to run into fldigi
07:45 < jim> edgeit, yep, and ham rtty is even slower, 75 baud
07:46 < jim> 10 meters might be on the line between hf and vhf
07:46 < chatquack> oh oh what's that ummm jt25?
07:46 < edgeit> jim..Wow..Now that is slow.  I wish I got into Ham...It really seems like a great community of people
07:46 < aBound> edgeit: I'm more of a Gnome fan but Gnome 3 is blah. KDE never really could get into to similar to Windows.
07:46 < chatquack> jim, ya, it doesn't quite behave like most hf bands
07:46 < jim> getting a ham license is drop dead simple
07:47 < aBound> edgeit: I'd probably install it into a VM before I decide a fresh install.
07:47 < jml2> pfff who needs a ham license
07:47 < jml2> lol
07:47 < jim> when they signed my extra class ticket, I was shocked :)
07:47 < chatquack> ya, edgeit, easier than ever. i think the code req was dropped
07:47 < jml2> i know.. clowns do!
07:47  * aBound gives jim an extra second ticket :P
07:47 < cmj> i need to get another usb radio
07:47 < jml2> edgeit, great community when the grid goes down
07:47 < jml2> edgeit, lol
07:48 < jml2> edgeit, they become communication first responders..
07:48 < jim> jml2, well, if you want to play with that stuff, it helps to be able to legally operate it
07:48 < edgeit> Abound: The of linux is we have these choices.  Honestly, I could not get into Gnome.  It did not work with my workflow.  But to each his own.  Budgie really stays out of your way
07:48 < aBound> Ham radio sounds like a cool radio app name.
07:48 < cmj> and gnuradio is god
07:48 < cmj> btw
07:49 < jim> software defined radio?
07:49 < cmj> yup
07:49 < edgeit> jml2..True. It has always been interesting to me.
07:49 < aBound> edgeit: You should check out Unity 8 on YouTube before it was cancelled. It was nearly identical to Budgie.
07:49 < jim> costs a pretty penny to get into it
07:50 < cmj> gqrx is the shit
07:50 < cmj> assuming gqrx.sf.net
07:50 < jim> chatquack, right, the lower licenses dont need code
07:50 < edgeit> abound.  Yes..Check it out in a VM.  I really did like it.  Very strong development community behind it (albeit small)
07:50 < aBound> Having that side panel on the right.
07:51 < cmj> rest in peace sourcefourge
07:51 < chatquack> jim, ya i was a bit surprised that as a tech i could rock cw across most of the bands
07:51 < jml2> gtg gn
07:51 < edgeit> abound.  Honestly I never gave unity a fair shot.  I have very mixed feelings about Canonical adopting Gnome for Ubuntu going forward.
07:51 < chatquack> and some vice on the lower part of the 10m band
07:51 < rosa> Does anyone use LLVM
07:52 < aBound> edgeit: I'd be surprised, if they changed there DE yet again.
07:52 < chatquack> night jml2
07:52 < jim> the compiler generator thing? I almost got it built
07:52 < cmj> recovering from suspend-to-disc
07:52  * aBound recovers cmj 
07:52 < aBound> Thumbs up 👍
07:52 < cmj> takes a bit for things to gather
07:53 < cmj> i need a good low battery alert
07:53 < cmj> i use gkrellm
07:53 < edgeit> abound.  I doubt it.  It is almost like they punted since they needed something to apease the desktop crowd as they focused on server, cloud and IOT.  Not that Gnome is bad but I am not sure other DEs were fully vetted
07:54 < aBound> I could use Ubuntu 16.04 with Unity until support ends yet that wouldn't be an ideal strategy.
07:55 < aBound> edgeit: I'm sure, there's some mixed feelings between Canonical and the developer of Gnome being Red Hat.
07:55 < aBound> Two different entities.
07:56 < edgeit> Abound...Ubuntu Mate 18.04 might be worth a look as well.  They have that mutinty theme and bring have the HUD.  A lot of unity users are moving that way
07:56 < aBound> edgeit: Indeed, I preferred Gnome 2 then Unity came ended up getting used to it.
07:57 < cmj> https://i.imgur.com/k2lz99a.gif
07:57 < codebam> I want to draw some black boxes and write some text on a pdf
07:57 < codebam> what software should I use
07:57 < aBound> I didn't want all the customizations of Linux just simplicity.
07:57 < edgeit> abound. Give Solus Budgie a shot...You might like it.
07:58 < aBound> I spent far enough time dealing with my vimrc file.
07:58 < cmj> do people like that?
07:58 < aBound> edgeit: I'll check it out, ultimately may move to Ubuntu MATE.
08:00  * aBound says cmj is a Linux user stop him... :P (joking) 
08:00 < aBound> cmj: Not too bad.
08:00 < cmj> i just never did de's, always fluxbox or e
08:00 < cmj> but i keep tabs on new things
08:02 < cmj> i guess kde neon is hot now
08:03 < aBound> I haven't used KDE Neon but I did try Kubuntu once, went back to regular Ubuntu afterwards.
08:04 < cmj> /r/linux is interesting, fwiw
08:04 < edgeit> cmi.  KDE Neon is really nice if you like bleeding edge KDE.  Stable 16.04 base with rolling KDE Plasma.  I moved to Kubuntu and am really enjoying it if you like Plasma.  My XPS 13 is a little funky with the touch pad.  Needed to move from synaptic to libinput
08:05 < edgeit> cmj..sorry..Not cmi.
08:05 < cmj> yeah i don't use desktop environments, just window managers. but i still like to play with them all
08:05 < cmj> i have probably 30 wms installd
08:05 < aBound> edgeit: Is that the developers edition of XPS 13?
08:06 < aBound> cmj: Dang trying to find the perfect one?
08:06 < edgeit> abound.  Yes..The 2015 XPS 13 (9343).  Best laptop I have owned
08:06 < codebam> I tried inkscape, but it only lets me edit one page at a time. GIMP opens everything as a layer or image, and xournal doesn't let me draw boxes
08:06 < codebam> which is sad that that's the only limitation
08:06 < aBound> edgeit: So my birthdays coming up when you buying me one. :P jk
08:07 < edgeit> abound.  Although I did swap out the broadcom wireless for Intel
08:07 < cmj> most are just minimal usage wms, enlightenment has been my gig forever now it moved to e17 which is … crazy. i stick with flux these days
08:07 < aBound> edgeit: Awesome, definitely better support knowing Broadcom is eh.
08:08 < cmj> screenshot?
08:09 < edgeit> abound: Yeah.. I have no idea why Dell did that...It came installed with Ubuntu 14.04 which I promptly nuked.  The broadcom drivers really were not great.  It worked ok in Arch but not that great.. Installed the Intel and wow!
08:09 < aBound> edgeit: Intel with there open source drivers. :P
08:10 < edgeit> abound: yeah...So nice.
08:10 < aBound> Intel has open source drivers even with there onboard graphics drivers.
08:11 < edgeit> abound: Birthday!  Happy BD
08:11 < aBound> Funny thing.
08:11 < cmj> https://i.imgur.com/yNlFAS3.jpg
08:11 < aBound> edgeit: My apologies I was just messing around with my birthday it won't be until February of next year but I appreciate it. :)
08:12 < cmj> that's fluxbox
08:13 < aBound> cmj: I bet you're listening to music while you're on IRC.
08:13 < edgeit> abound.  LOL.  I just had my birthday last week.  I should have picked up a 2018 XPS 13.  I really enjoy the form factor
08:13 < cmj> of course?
08:13 < aBound> edgeit: Would you have sold your older laptop to buy the new one or just kept em both.
08:14 < aBound> cmj: I take that as a yes. :)
08:14 < edgeit> ABound: I would keep them both.  Perhaps hand them off to my kids
08:15 < aBound> edgeit: Not bad at all, sounds good.
08:15 < SuperSeriousCat> Always good to have a backup in case your new one breaks and you dont got the energy to fix
08:16 < aBound> I wonder what the average age of the Linux user is in this channel.
08:16 < SuperSeriousCat> 34
08:16 < gnawzie> hi
08:16 < gnawzie> is there any way to send a file via serial
08:16 < |||JD|||> it would drop to 17 if we don't count jim
08:16 < gnawzie> I've tried picocom and minicom but they want the recieving end to have some program on it
08:17 < aBound> I'm 31.
08:17 < edgeit> SuperSeriousCat: 10-4 there.  I have spilled coffee on my laptop a couple times!
08:17 < aBound> Millennial arise. :P
08:17 < cmj> aBound: if you wanted to know https://i.imgur.com/OA0s3ne.png
08:18 < edgeit> aBound: I remember those days.!  Actually, maybe not..lol
08:18 < cmj> gotta walk the dogs
08:18 < alexey-nemovff> I'm 32
08:18 < gnawzie> I hate the idea of having to copy and paste ascii from a cat of a binary program lol
08:19 < gnawzie> is there no way to just send raw bytes read straight out of a file to serial?
08:19 < aBound> cmj: Nada Surf I see teehee.
08:19 < alexey-nemovff> what does iirc means? has it anything to do with IRC? xD
08:19 < jim> gnawzie, well, sure... you should use a protocol like xmodem, but it would work
08:19 < aBound> edgeit: Aha, those good ol' days.
08:20 < jim> xmodem is actually a very old protocol, you could probably do better
08:20 < aBound> alexey-nemovff: if I recall correctly << is what it means.
08:21 < edgeit> gnawzie.  What distro?  Have you looked at Interceptty?  https://github.com/geoffmeyers/interceptty
08:21 < sauvin> I remember liking zmodem over xmodem by quite a bit
08:21 < lukey_> gnawzie: dd if=<file> bs=1 count=<bytes to send> of=/dev/ttyS<n>
08:21 < alexey-nemovff> I've seen many use/type "iirc" a lot..
08:22 < SuperSeriousCat> If I recall correctly ^
08:22 < alexey-nemovff> lol
08:22 < alexey-nemovff> thank you
08:23 < alexey-nemovff> aBound: I didn't get it at first xD than you both SuperSeriousCat
08:23 < alexey-nemovff> thank
08:24 < aBound> alexey-nemovff: You're welcome. :)
08:25 < cmj> kermit > zmodem ‼
08:25 < cmj> ;p
08:26 < cmj> aBound: nada surf is on a tour, hitting seattle next week
08:26 < cmj> so i'm pregaming
08:27 < gnawzie> oh, my bin file seems to contain a bunch of padding zeroes
08:27 < aBound> cmj: Good luck enjoying Seattle woohoo I wouldn't mind visiting as well.
08:28 < cmj> nada surf is my ❥
08:28 < aBound> We have much, much different tastes in music.
08:29 < lukey_> gnawzie: cat <file> | tr -d '\0' > /dev/ttyS<n>
08:30 < lukey_> gnawzie: That would skip all zeroes :)
08:30 < neoncortex> I actually need to discover how to use kerit, to communicate with some old devices ..
08:30 < cmj> i'm old, but music is life
08:30 < cmj> gnawzie: rkunter if you must
08:31 < gnawzie> i'm sending to a tandy 100 fyi lol
08:31 < aBound> Older than life itself wiser.
08:31 < gnawzie> I have a basic program waiting on serial to grab and poke into memory so I can execute it
08:31 < cmj> radio shack devices woo
08:33 < cmj> follow youtube creator 'techmoan'
08:33 < cmj> also '8-bit guy'
08:33  * cmj is off-topic
08:39 < aBound> Time for me to sleep. I'm off to Wonderland. :P
08:39 < chatquack> cheers, abound
08:39 < jarvis-owl> had breakfast in germany just yet :P
08:39 < chatquack> mmm breakfast
08:40 < edgeit> take care abound
08:54 < fofalee> hello
08:54 < fofalee> can I use whonix  as my primary OS,unlike tails?
08:54 < jim> hi
08:54 < jim> what's a whonix?
08:54 < jim> waht's tails?
08:56 < chatquack> tails... you know... sonic's friend
08:59 < jim> ok, so whonix is based on debian
09:00 < jim> well I know you can use debian as a main, installed os, so if whonix has similar stuff, probably yes
09:00 < jim> but note... I haven't heard of whonix until right now
09:02 < neoncortex> It's probably another Debian modified to be more secure, or another wich came with a lot of security tools, or both ..
09:02 < cmj> tails
09:03 < cmj> it's a netsec oriented distro iirc
09:03 < cmj> but yeah, fancy install script
09:05 < zapotah> hnh, somehow after heavy IO ovs just nopes out and a bond never comes up
09:05 < zapotah> hell, it doesnt even show up with ip l
09:07 < fofalee> Just like whonix can't be compromised even with superuser access, or malware as superusers, is the same true for qubes OS?
09:07 < fofalee> so which is more secure, from remote attacks?
09:08 < zapotah> things are only as secure as your application is
09:08 < zapotah> and in light of recent news, your hardware
09:08 < neoncortex> secure against who is the question
09:10 < neoncortex> I mean, I don't feel I can trust the hardware my system are running on for a long time, but I know that it will be very hard for people like you and me to break in =D
09:14 < pnbeast> You don't trust the hardware?  I trust my hardware to do whatever the hell Intel fabbed it to do.
09:14 < pnbeast> I wish I knew what that was.
09:16 < neoncortex> sadly, apparently no one have a solution for that, you have things like libreboot, but it does not solve the problem entirely, only a small piece of it
09:34 < oneko> What the heck ? I'm using iperf to test bandwidth between to digitalocean VPSes and it's reporting 1.25M/sec
09:35 < oneko> 1.05Mib/sec
09:42 < iflema> the tails "install" is funny... different
09:46 < kaos> hello. i just now read the user license agreement of the OpenSUSE distro, and it says that one is not allowed to use the software for developing nuclear, bio och chemical weapons unless one is the US military or an ally.
09:46 < kaos> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:License
09:47 < kaos> this is so weird... why did they put that in the user license??
09:47 < kaos> does anyone know?
09:47 < kaos> i asked in the OpenSUSE channel but they ignored me
09:47 < JackMa> i want to make script like this : tmux —> python file.py —> ctrl + b, d ——>  tmux —> python file2.py —> ctrl + b, d. <—then how can i do it?
09:51 < nai> kaos: standard legal stuff
09:52 < kaos> but heil lucifer.. kindof
09:52 < nai> JackMa: man tmux
09:53 < JackMa> nai: scripts :(
09:55 < RooTGeorge> Hi
09:55 < RooTGeorge> let me show you something
09:55 < RooTGeorge> haha
09:55 < RooTGeorge> Oops
09:55 < nai> JackMa: so you can't read a man page?
09:55 < RooTGeorge> -zr @udp 185.83.12.68 80 65500 60
09:56 < nai> JackMa: tmux new-session -d python file.py; tmux new-session -d python file2.py
09:56 < RooTGeorge> -zr @udp 79.112.39.12 80 65500 60
09:56 < RooTGeorge> -zr @help
09:56 < iflema> pfff
09:57 < JackMa> nai: oh thanks :)
10:01 < JackMa> nai: https://ideone.com/YYO7o9   <— this is ok?
10:01 < JackMa> ./myfile
10:26 < onla> if I have bunch of songs in wav files, how'd you make some 30sec clips of them and save them as mp3 if prefer cmd line?L
10:30 < onla> and even add fade
10:30 < coderobe> ffmpeg seeking is probably the most universal
10:35 < fofalee> which is more secure, qubes or alpine linux or whonix, secure against remote attacks
10:36 < fofalee> against who? well I wouldn't know who is the attacker morons, security is absolute, and there is no who
10:36 < onla> coderobe: hmm ok, seems I can use that at least to cut a piece. I'll check if I can convert the wav too
10:36 < fofalee> random person is what is assumed
10:36 < fofalee> "who" is a retarded query
10:36 < coderobe> onla: yes you can.
10:38 < |||JD|||> https://thehackernews.com/2018/05/intel-spectre-vulnerability.html
10:40 < onla> coderobe: do you have any idea how I should install ffmpeg on ubuntu 14.04. apt-cache search ffmpeg shows only 3 entries starting with ffmpeg, and most promising ffmpeg2theora - Theora video encoder using ffmpeg`
10:40 < onla> ah, I think I need to add a ppa
10:40 < coderobe> update your system.
10:41 < coderobe> ffmpeg is in the official repos since xenial
10:42 < JackMa> how can i make file executabe?
10:43 < |||JD|||> chmod +x
10:43 < onla> I have a bad intel processor that freezes on newer kernels so I stay
10:44 < JackMa> ||JD||: what is bash extension?
10:45 < onla> pff, this ffmpeg installation requires dist-upgrade which might mess my system up
10:45 < coderobe> lol
10:47 < JackMa> ||JD||: what is bash extension?
10:47 < JackMa> like py of python?
10:48 < coderobe> JackMa: "file extensions" don't exist. the type of a file is determined by their contents (shebang or magic bytes)
10:48 < coderobe> though generally. sh is used.
10:48 < coderobe> be sure to set a shebang pointing to bash, like so: '#!/usr/bin/env bash'
10:49 < coderobe> because if one doesn't exist, it will likely be interpreted by the current shell which may or may not be bash
10:49 < coderobe> or the system default
10:50 <@jim> maybe he'd have to pretend it's just a posix shell (and not bash), meaning like /bin/sh
10:50 < jontysr> coderobe: Can /usr/bin/bash also be used?
10:50 < jontysr> What's special about env?
10:50 < coderobe> jontysr: in the shebang? sure. though the path may differ on different systems
10:51 <@jim> env will find the first one on the $PATH
10:51 < jontysr> Ah okay, so /usr/bin/env is more likely to exist on all
10:51 < jontysr> neat
10:52 < jontysr> So the same thing can be done with python instead of bash for a python script?
10:53 < JackMa> #!/bin/bash  vs '#!/usr/bin/env bash’  <— which is correct?
10:53 <@jim> the thing is that while some of the syntax of bash match that of a plain /bin/sh, they're not the same, and if you want to use sh, you should put sh in the shebang, and limit yourself to only stuff in sh
10:53 < Bl4ckC0re> hello
10:53 < Bl4ckC0re> anyone online
10:53 <@jim> but if you want to use bash, then put bash in the shebang
10:53 <@jim> you are
10:54 < JackMa> #!/bin/bash  vs #!/usr/bin/env bash <— which is correct?
10:54 < coderobe> JackMa: since usrmerge, /bin/bash is actively discouraged
10:54 < coderobe> use env, like we explained
10:54 < JackMa> oh
10:54 < JackMa> #!/usr/bin/env bash <— -this is correct?
10:54 < coderobe> also, you don't have to repost your question every minute.
10:54 <@jim> JackMa, probably the second one (as it's not guaranteed where bash is installed)
10:55 <@jim> he's excited :P
10:56 < nai> coderobe: what's usrmerge?
10:56 < coderobe> nai: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/
10:58 < nai> thanks
10:59 < coderobe> the gist of it is that /bin and /usr/bin (& co) separation is pretty much entirely arbitrary, and providing the same unified means to access the resources everywhere is a union goal
11:00 < nai> it's been that way for a while hasn't it?
11:00 < coderobe> indeed.
11:00 < coderobe> decades, depending on your system
11:01 <@jim> the way I see it, lots of times, there would be partitions mounted on / and on /usr... so often, /bin executables would be available before /usr/bin ones
11:01 < coderobe> about exactly 2 decades, actually
11:01 < coderobe> jim: split /usr without initrd workarounds hasn't been working for decades, either
11:02 < coderobe> it was a bad idea from the get go, and got amplified as the software market grew
11:02 < nai> is a similar merge planned between /usr/local and /usr, or is this a totally different rationale?
11:02 < coderobe> no, /usr/local exists for an entirely different reason
11:03 <@jim> well generally you would only put stuff like fdisk and fsck in /bin, stuff that can find and fix problems
11:03 < nai> it's meant to separate files installed through the distribution/package manager from files installed manually right?
11:04 < nai> well, the other way around
11:04 < coderobe> nai: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.pdf
11:04 < coderobe> though that was written before usrmerge
11:04 < coderobe> or rather, without usrmerge in mind
11:04 <@jim> coderobe, also, I'm still not quite on the systemd bandwagon :)
11:04 < coderobe> not necessarily before distros implemented it
11:04 < kaos> i hate opensuse & suse. its so stupid.
11:05 < coderobe> jim: usrmerge isn't really much related to systemd
11:05 < coderobe> it just appears to be relevant for a popular pid1 ;)
11:05 <@jim> you hate suses that are open?!
11:05 < kaos> haha yes
11:05 < kaos> fuck the suse, its derp is herp
11:06 < kaos> :)
11:07 <@jim>  /usr/local is meant as a system area for the installing person to put stuff that maybe he builds himself, and is an area that distribution packaging is not permitted to touch
11:07 < nai> coderobe: i always had trouble understanding what "locally installed" means. local as opposed to what?
11:07 < coderobe> jim: "just putting the important stuff into /" has been broken from the start, because that's arbitrary too
11:08 < coderobe> so without usrmerge, fdisk might go into /bin, but what about other filesystem utilities?
11:08 < kaos> put all the important stuff into the root path, /. learn from windows guys
11:08 <@jim> that would make the FHS arbitrary by the same reasoning
11:08 < nai> local as opposed to distributed i guess.
11:08 < coderobe> jim: elaborate
11:09 < coderobe>  /usr/bin holding *all* binaries, as opposed to /bin holding the ones deemed important is much saner, comparatively
11:09 < pnbeast> nai, "local", from the admin(s) running the machine(s), as opposed to "from the manufacturer", historically, and "from the distro/maintainers", here, most likely.
11:10 <@jim> the reasoning that suggests the difference between /bin and /usr/bin is arbitrary, would also apply to the stuff in FHS
11:10 < coderobe> not quite sure what you mean
11:10 < nai> pnbeast: right thanks
11:11 <@jim> ok, what reasoning suggests that / should be "merged" with /usr?
11:12 < coderobe> wat
11:12 < coderobe> not taking the bait
11:13 < pnbeast> Dammit, jim, coderobe's a doctor, not a halibut!
11:13 <@jim> I'm just saying that whatever that reasoning is, it probably applies to the "arbitrary" placements suggested by the FHS
11:15 < kaos> https://hooktube.com/watch?v=EBYsx1QWF9A
11:15 < kaos> i suggest you hardlink / to /usr
11:16 <@jim> kaos, about before, please mind the f-bombs
11:16 < kaos> it gets recursive and feelings of jummy in the electro-brainz
11:16 < kaos> f-bombs? :O
11:17 <@jim> yeah you posted one a few minutes ago]
11:17 < kaos> hm, mkay, i think you mean the synonym-word with "intercourse"
11:19 <@jim> I just wanted to make sure you got a reminder (yeah, I call those "f-bombs"
11:19 < kaos> if you remember to close your parantheses)
11:20 <@jim> )
11:20 < kaos> ok deal
11:20 <@jim> thanks :)
11:23 < JackMa> nai: it don’t works :(
11:24 < JackMa> tmux new-session -d python file.py
11:24 < nai> i'm very sorry to hear that
11:24 < JackMa> usage: new-session [-AdDP] [-c start-directory] [-F format] [-n window-name] [-s session-name] [-t target-session] [-x width] [-y height] [command]
11:24 < JackMa> nai: what’s wrong?
11:25 < nai> this runs fine, you must have typed something else
11:26 < nai> ...show me what you really typed?
11:27  * jim is typed as human!
11:28 < JackMa> https://ideone.com/CyXC4o  nai
11:28 < JackMa> i did it like this
11:30 < JackMa> nai: what’s wrong?
11:30 < nai> JackMa: give me a break
11:30 < JackMa> yeah
11:30 <@jim> one break...
11:31 <@jim> coming up...
11:31 < nai> medium rare please
11:31 < zapotah> extra bloody
11:35 < nai> JackMa: works for me, and your tmux seems to support this syntax
11:35 < JackMa> not support?
11:37 < nai> what?
11:38 < hexnewbie> Apart from the obvious problem here, the tmux command pasted in the channel does *NOT* work, as tmux is one of those broken tools (like su) that accept a shell *command*, instead of command arguments (screen being superior in accepting *arguments*, like any sane tool should)
11:40 < JackMa> hexnewbie: you know why it don’t work?
11:40 < hexnewbie> JackMa: The error message tells you exactly why it doesn't work.
11:40 <@jim> so let's just say that tmux needs work :)_
11:41 < JackMa> hexnewbie: error message : usage: new-session [-AdDP] [-c start-directory] [-F format] [-n window-name] [-s session-name] [-t target-session] [-x width] [-y height] [command]
11:41 < JackMa> what’s wrong?
11:42 < hexnewbie> JackMa: When you fix the obvious problem of you not having tmux installed, you'll run into a second problem: The usage you pasted specifies a *single* command, where you passed *two* arguments ('python3' and 'free_proxy.py'). You need a single command: tmux new-session -d "python3 free_proxy.py"
11:42 < JackMa> i need double “
11:42 < nai> hexnewbie: they pasted their code on a "bash fiddle" type website, hence the error messages
11:42 < JackMa> ?
11:43 < hexnewbie> JackMa: " or ', not “
11:43 < nai> and my version of tmux supports arguments
11:43 < nai> JackMa: what does tmux -V output on your system?
11:44 < JackMa> tmux 1.9
11:44 < nai> i have 2.7
11:44 < nai> is this the latest version available on your distro?
11:45 < JackMa> hexnewbie: you are my hero
11:45 < JackMa> :)
11:45 < JackMa>  tmux new-session -d "python3 free_proxy.py”  <— it works well thanks hexnewbie :)
11:46 < JackMa> nai: you have 2.7?
11:46 < JackMa> oh
11:46 < nai> JackMa: what distro are you running
11:46 < JackMa> nai: i use raspbian
11:46 < JackMa> 8)
11:46 < MrElendig> my condolances
11:46 < nai> ah.
11:47 < hexnewbie> nai: In fact, tmux 2.3 have changed the man page to specify it needs a shell command there. What does 2.7's say?
11:47 < JackMa> nai: anyway it works now
11:47 < hexnewbie> Because that sounds like a bad thing to change, for compatibility reasons
11:47 < nai> it says [shell-command] instead of [command]
11:48 < nai> the arguments are probably just concatenated into a shell command so it doesn't change much
11:48 < hexnewbie> That would still imply no individual, separate arguments passed as individual, separate arguments
11:48 < nai> hexnewbie: depends on what synopsis convention you're using (if any)
11:49 < nai> i mean, open "man ssh"
11:49 < nai> it also uses [command] for arguments/command
11:49 < hexnewbie> nai: One where I don't introduce security holes in my program when I try to pass a variable. And yes, ssh is also broken, but at least for a good reason (it needs to run the remote shell, unlike tmux)
11:51 < nai> even sudo has [command] and it does not invoke a shell
11:52 < nai> heh, different conventions
11:53 < hexnewbie> In sudo's case, I think it's a badly written man page, but I haven't used sudo enough to tell for sure.
11:53 < Alina-malina> https://pastebin.com/raw/Mfy7seiy  Is there any workaround to this problem?
11:53 < hexnewbie> Or rather, I've never tried of “sudo 'command arg1'” works
11:53 < nai> hexnewbie: i had the occasion to notice the sudo man page was terribly written.
11:54 < nai> Alina-malina: do you need insmod?
11:54 < hexnewbie> Alina-malina: ‘modprobe iptable_filter’ from the good old days. Since it needs to happen automatically anyway, it probably won't fix the problem, but rather tell you what it really is
11:54 < Alina-malina> hmmm ok let me try that
12:08 < hypercore> what's a good up-and-coming linux distro?
12:09 < Armand> Mint
12:09 < coderobe> what's that question even supposed to mean
12:09 < hexnewbie> Is up and coming synonym for rolling?
12:09 < hypercore> up-and-coming meaning new, good potential, etc
12:09 < hypercore> i've been using arch linux for a while now, want to try something new
12:10 < coderobe> i'm failing to see how the base distribution matters
12:10 < coderobe> what are you looking for, specifically?
12:10 < hypercore> coderobe: why would it not?
12:11 < hypercore> coderobe: i'm not sure to be honest, just feel like trying something new
12:11 < hypercore> i guess maybea replacement for ubuntu
12:11 < Armand> Why not Mint ?
12:11 < hypercore> Armand: i'll check it out, thanks
12:12 < hypercore> what do you like about Mint btw?
12:12 < Armand> It's great for desktop, using Cinnamon.. and it's stable.
12:12 < Armand> I've been using Mint for 5 years at work, because I need stable first.
12:13 < hypercore> Armand: have you tried Solus?
12:13 < Armand> Narp
12:14 < hexnewbie> If you want to try something new, change your desktop environment. Or shell.
12:16 < Armand> hypercore: I'll VM it. :)
12:16 < nai> install gentoo
12:17 < Dreaman> not good idea
12:17 < Dreaman> arch
12:18 < hypercore> Armand: likewise :)
12:18 < Armand> Gentoo is a good idea.. if you like Gentoo.
12:18 < Dreaman> 1 day install or 2
12:18 < hypercore> Armand: a lot of arch users seem to recommend solus too
12:18 < Armand> I don't come across many Arch users..
12:19 < hypercore> Armand: is that sarcasm? :P
12:19 < Armand> Nope
12:19 < hypercore> oh, ok
12:19 < Dreaman> and is not for young linux user
12:19 < Armand> Very subjective, Dreaman
12:20 < coderobe> Solus feels very set in stone
12:20 < Dreaman> i use is good but to hard
12:20 < coderobe> both design and tech wise
12:20 < hypercore> don't get me wrong, arch has served me great and i'll still use it as my primary OS, but i guess im looking for an ubuntu replacement that's quick to install on any hardware
12:21 < coderobe> what's your criteria for "ubuntu replacement"
12:21 < Dreaman> nikolov@ubuntu-ivan:~$ inxi -F
12:21 < Dreaman> System:    Host: ubuntu-ivan Kernel: 4.15.0-21-generic x86_64 bits: 64
12:21 < Dreaman>            Desktop: Gnome 3.28.1 Distro: Ubuntu 18.04 LTS
12:21 < coderobe> you mean stuff like xubuntu & co?
12:21 < Dreaman> just easy for my laptop
12:21 < Dreaman> work
12:24 < hypercore> coderobe: rolling release, well maintained distro with good DE (obviously base is not so important for this requirement)
12:24 < hypercore> something i don't have to customized too much, with good base configuration
12:25 < coderobe> that's like, the opposite of ubuntu
12:25 < hypercore> customization can be fun, but I want a distro that just works™
12:25 < coderobe> you might very well be looking for openSUSE tumbleweed though
12:26 < hypercore> coderobe: ubuntu had all but one of those things
12:26 < hendrix> +1 for that
12:29 < hypercore> i'm trying to figure out which distros I want to use for specific situations. e.g. arch is my go-to primary distro (on my laptop), debian is my go-to server distro (was previously ubuntu), and now i want to find a go-to desktop distro
12:29 < coderobe> hypercore: are these choices purely arbitrary?
12:30 < hypercore> coderobe: of course not
12:30 < coderobe> interested in your reasoning
12:31 < hypercore> arch because it's a rolling release, up-to-date, bare-bones os that's highly customizable
12:31 < hypercore> and i chose debian basically because i don' trust canonical
12:32 < coderobe> why wouldn't you pick arch for a server?
12:32 < hypercore> but it's still relatively similar to ubuntu
12:32 < coderobe> (or debian for your other system, is it just the outdatedness?)
12:32 < hypercore> coderobe: too much effort, also not my hosts provide an arch image
12:32 < hypercore> *not many
12:33 < coderobe> one can safely bootstrap arch from any other distro during runtime btw :b
12:33 < coderobe> (even from/to the same partition)
12:33 < Armand> hypercore: Ok.. Solus looks interesting.
12:33 < hypercore> and i chose debian over e.g. fedorda, centos because i'm familiar with debian based distros
12:33 < hypercore> coderobe: really? how does that work?
12:34 < Armand> Now.. if I could get drivers for my NVidia 5200... lol
12:34 < hypercore> Armand: glad to hear it :P
12:34 <@jim> one of many good reasons to pick it
12:34 < Armand> Ohh.. forget that. It's x86_64 only.
12:35 <@jim> what is? the driver?
12:35 < Armand> I'll leave Mint17 on the Pentium M
12:35 < Armand> The distro, jim
12:35 < coderobe> hypercore: several methods depending on the circumstances
12:35 <@jim> which distro?
12:35 < Armand> Solus
12:35 <@jim> oh ok
12:37 <@jim> what are you looking for in a distro?
12:38 <@jim> Armand, ^^^
12:38 < Armand> huh ?
12:38 < Armand> lol
12:39 < Armand> Ohh.. I was just remarking on Solus.
12:39 <@jim> oh ok, I thought you meant you might have been installing a different dist, then decided not to because it only does one arch
12:40 < Armand> Well, that too
12:40 < Armand> I loaded Solus in a VM.
12:40 < Armand> I thought it might be nice on my old laptop/desktop machines, but they are 32bit CPUs
12:41 <@jim> isn't solus a debian deriv?
12:41 < crerr> no
12:41 < Armand> And the NVidia drivers don't work on newer kernels.
12:41 < Armand> *legacy drivers.
12:41 <@jim> ok, so, looks like "it'
12:42 <@jim> s complicated"
12:42 < Armand> Yarp
12:42 < Armand> Mint 17 still works on it.. but updates will be getting thin.
12:43 < Alina-malina> hexnewbie, modprobe: chdir(2.6.32.12): No such file or directory   i get this error when i try to execute the mentioned  ‘modprobe iptable_filter’ command :-/
12:43 <@jim> can you put the kernel on hold, -or- find a different driver for your video?
12:44 < hexnewbie> Alina-malina: What do the last few lines of dmesg say after you run it?
12:44 < Armand> Well, the kernel won't ever get updated unless there's something I can do about the drivers, jim..
12:44 < Armand> I'm using the last legacy version with support for the FX 5200.
12:44 <@jim> yeah that makes sense
12:44 < Armand> Thankfully my desktop isn't so restricted.
12:45 < Alina-malina> hexnewbie, https://pastebin.com/raw/QMsv7vgD
12:45 < Armand> But still needs 32bit support, which is dying.
12:45 <@jim> let me check soimething
12:46 < hexnewbie> Alina-malina: What does this say: find /lib/modules/"$(uname -r)"/ -name \*table\*
12:48 < Alina-malina> hexnewbie, find: /lib/modules/2.6.32.12/: No such file or directory
12:48 < hexnewbie> Alina-malina: That means you're lacking modules for your current running kernel. Also, why are you running a kernel that old?
12:49 < hexnewbie> Alina-malina: What did you do for that problem to occur? Did you remove (or install) a kernel recently?
12:49 < Alina-malina> well, its a specific old device, and i dont want to mess with its stuff, just want to setup iptables to make sure secure it, but looks like its not going to be that easy, any otherworkaround to this? maybe using ipchains or something? :-.
12:50 < Alina-malina> just want to restrict ip access to it locally thats it
12:50 < hexnewbie> Alina-malina: Maybe it never had full iptables support to begin with, as there are no modules for it. Although the loading of the iptables itself succeeds, which is strange.
12:50 < rascul> maybe some of it is built in
12:51 < hexnewbie> Or the vendor put modules in a very strange location (not /lib/modules/$vername/)
12:51 < rascul> find / -name '*.ko'
12:52 < Alina-malina> rascul, bunch of output from this location: /lib/modules/
12:52 < rascul> you have other stuff in /lib/modules? maybe you just somehow don't have modules for the current kernel?
12:52 < hexnewbie> Alina-malina: If you have iptable_filter.ko, you could try running insmod on it with full path
12:53 < Alina-malina> hexnewbie, i have this: /lib/modules/iptable_nat.ko
12:53 < Alina-malina> and /lib/modules/ipt_REDIRECT.ko  this
12:53 < MrElendig> 2.6? wat
12:53 < hexnewbie> Alina-malina: Maybe the device supports only nat, not filtering
12:56 < Alina-malina> iptable_filter.ko
12:56 < Alina-malina> iptable_mangle.ko
12:56 < Alina-malina> iptable_nat.ko
12:56 < Alina-malina>     oh i think i found
12:56 < Alina-malina> oups sorry
12:57 < Alina-malina> hexnewbie, there is a file iltable_filter.ko,
12:57 < Alina-malina> iptable_filter.ko*
13:05 < Bunk> Hi
13:05 < Sveta> hello Bunk :-)
13:06 < Bunk> In my journal, i noticed 500 MB entries within some hours. Atm entries are made every 3 minutes. Space on / going down significantly
13:06 < Bunk> How come that ?
13:07 < Bunk> Yesterday, i had the same problem and cleaned up
13:07 < Sveta> Bunk: do you know what these entries are?
13:08 < Bunk> System and user 1000 entries. The normal ones in var log journal
13:10 < Sveta> Bunk: i am interested not as much in the type of the logs as much in their content and what they are logging. if the provided information is useless then you can disable logging for that particular event
13:11 < goodafternoon> hi guys, something slipped my mind, grep is used to sort lines of a document, I know that there is another package to cut it in a column, could you tell me the name ? :p
13:11 < Bunk> Sveta: Yes, i understand. I can not open them
13:11 < rindolf> goodafternoon: hi
13:11 < Sveta> Bunk: why not?
13:11 < Bunk> hi rindolf
13:11 < rindolf> goodafternoon: there is cut
13:12 < SAngeli> Hi, I run CentOS with Plesk and use Spamassassing but I find it not really doing any real job against SPAM. Is there an official Forum or a Forum where I can post some questions where people can answer me and help me get Spamassassing work properly?
13:12 < goodafternoon> rindolf haha yes I just figured it out when I posted my question
13:12 < Sveta> SAngeli: consider asking #spamassassin (its topic may also have links to non-chat mediums where questions may be asked)
13:12 < Bunk> Sveta: There is no program given to open the files
13:13 < TwistedFate> anyone here running battle.net/wow? i have a problem with battle.net, it's not showing the login button and keeps puking error windows how helper.exe and systemsurvey.exe crashed
13:13 < SAngeli> Sveta, many thanks!
13:13 < Sveta> Bunk: what is the file name?
13:13 < Sveta> SAngeli: no problem
13:13 < Bunk> unknown
13:13 < Hdphn> hi everyone
13:13 < Hdphn> arch just broke on me
13:13 < Hdphn> with their new update
13:13 < Hdphn> has anyone here switched from arch to other distro?
13:14 < rindolf> TwistedFate: is this on linux?
13:14 < Sveta> Bunk: 'some log files are taking space, i do not know where they are'
13:14 < Sveta> Bunk: to me that sounds like a vague question...
13:14 < TwistedFate> rindolf: yeah, using wine
13:14 < rindolf> TwistedFate: ah
13:14 < goodafternoon> cut doesn't work with what I want to do
13:15 < Bunk> Sveta: rindolf  HAve a look here https://ipfs.pics/QmQ89F8G6uGMyCMkRcx2srLQCW1PMfWmkDgfgzy1YbKeba
13:15 < goodafternoon>  grep '<[a-z]* mdate' dblp.xml output : <article mdate="2018-01-30" key="journals/ijsi/XuCMCL13"> ;  I would like to get as output, only "article" ([a-z]) in my regex, is there a way to do that
13:15 < rindolf> goodafternoon: grep -o
13:15 < Sveta> Bunk: you might get an idea of what this is in #systemd
13:16 < rindolf> goodafternoon: or perl/etc
13:16 < Sveta> Bunk: if you do, please share their solution here
13:16 < Bunk> OK, there is a possibility
13:17 < rindolf> Sveta: sup?
13:18 < Sveta> rindolf: fixing hardware at home a bit
13:18 < Sveta> housekeeping etc
13:18 < rindolf> Sveta: ah
13:19 < goodafternoon> rindolf I like grep -o but is there a way to take only the brackets in '<([a-z]*)' ?
13:20 < rindolf> goodafternoon: you can use a look behind
13:20 < rindolf> goodafternoon: you probably want + instead of *
13:21 < goodafternoon> oh yes, thank you
13:22 < rindolf> goodafternoon: you can do grep -o '[a-z]+'
13:23 < phogg> this looks more like a job for sed (or perl)
13:24 < Alina-malina> hexnewbie, insmod: can't insert 'iptable_filter.ko': unknown symbol in module, or unknown parameter
13:25 < acresearch> people, i have a server hosting a website running ubuntu 16.04, at some points the CPU maxes out, how can i find out what is causing this? i ran the server continueously for 2 years without issue, now the CPU is maxing out, i reboot to to stop whatever computation the is causing this, but then after several hours it happens again ? what is happening?
13:26 < phogg> goodafternoon: sed -Ene 's/.*<([a-z]+) mdate.*/\1/p' or perl -ne '/<([a-z]+)/ && print $1' # if you want only the part in the capture to be printed
13:26 < rindolf> phogg: -ne shud be -lne
13:26 < Alina-malina> acresearch, probably its infected with crypto miner, try to see in top
13:27 < acresearch> Alina-malina: how did it get infected? what can i do to protect myself in the future?
13:27 < phogg> rindolf: it should also be perl -lne '/<([a-z]+) mdate/ && print $1' to be exactly equivalent
13:27 < Alina-malina> acresearch, well its hard to say until i look at some certain things, first thing not run as root, allow third partie people access it and always stay up to date
13:27 < rindolf> phogg: yes
13:28 < Hdphn> ANYONE Here switched from archlinux to some other distro? Please recommend me
13:28 < Hdphn> thank you so much!
13:28 < acresearch> Alina-malina: ok i just rebooted the server so i am not sure what i can do right now. but if it happens again, what info do you need? tell me please so i can prepare it quickly
13:28 < Hdphn> arch keeps breaking. cant deal with it no more
13:29 < rindolf> Hdphn: i use mageia
13:29 < Alina-malina> Hdphn, why you want to switch from arch? I am on arch and never want to switch to other distro, any reason for doing that?
13:29 < Hdphn> I also dont want to switch but that crap keeps breaking
13:29 < Alina-malina> acresearch, ls -la /tmp but use pastebin
13:29 < Alina-malina> really? why its breaking Hdphn? i never had issue and have long month uptimes, probably u configure something wrong
13:29 < coderobe> acresearch: they're mostly bullshitting you
13:30 < Alina-malina> Hdphn, try to ask in #archlinux
13:30 < acresearch> Alina-malina: ok, i will look out for your name if/when it happens again and i will have the paste prepared
13:30 < coderobe> just check (h)top when the cpu maxes out
13:30 < acresearch> coderobe: what do you mean?
13:30 < coderobe> acresearch: > `ls -la /tmp` lol
13:31 < Alina-malina> coderobe,   kys
13:31 < coderobe> acresearch: you're probably fine, might just be a long running process hanging. htop & system logs help finding the cause
13:31 < coderobe> !ops Alina-malina ^
13:32 < acresearch> Hdphn: try antergos,    based on arch but simpler to install, has a large community
13:32 < acresearch> coderobe: hmmm
13:32 < acresearch> ok
13:32 < acresearch> coderobe: its just that it happened twice in 3 days after no problems for 2 years
13:38 < Bunk> Sveta:
13:38 < tx> Sveta:
13:40 < Bunk> In the given time, there is only something like that https://hastebin.com/unuzinunex.coffeescript
13:43 < BluesKaj> Hi folks
13:45 < Hdphn> acresearch: its same as arch
13:45 < Hdphn> it will break if arch breaks
13:45 < Hdphn> no difference at all
13:55 < kaos> put all the important stuff into the root path, /. learn from windows guys5r4444fgtttttt
13:56 < Armand> :trollface:
13:56 < tx> Armand: nice emoji mate
13:56 < Armand> innit
14:03 < kazdax> xamindar, xamithan
14:04 < kazdax> you around ?
14:04 < kazdax> i was looking up the WGU ionline unversity thing
14:04 < kazdax> do i need to get a GED or a high school diploma for them ?
14:06 < mawk> hi
14:07 < kazdax> hi
14:25 < voidphere37> hey
14:26 < noodlepie> Hi voidphere37
14:26 < voidphere37> noddlepie, what flavor of linux are you using?
14:28 < noodlepie> Gentoo LLinux 4.16.7-gentoo, just the Free packages.
14:28 < voidphere37> noddlepie, can you pm me?
14:29 < noodlepie> And Debian on my desktop downstairs, building pakcages on there would take an age, its a 2cpu AMD.
14:30 < noodlepie> My laptop is a 8thread i7, 8Gb, 1TB, 256Gb SSD, I have /boot /boot/efi /var and swap on SSD and / on /dev/sdb1 (1TB harddisk)
14:39 < Lope> what's the name of the ntfs-3g utility that can make backup images of raw NTFS images without consuming space for storing free space?
14:39 < noodlepie> I don't know if there is a mkfs.ntfs
14:40 < noodlepie> You probably want to format it in windows and then mount it under linux root /
14:40 < Azrael_-> Lope: no idea but if you don't find anything, what about creating the backup and then just compressing it. by compressing most of the free space should be reduced to nearly nothing
14:40 < jack_rip_vim> Lope: mkfs.ntfs can make the magic, but you need to install ntfs-3g first
14:41 < Lope> Azrael_-: the problem with that is if you make a big file in windows, and then delete the file, the storage clusters don't get overwritten with zeros.
14:41 < Lope> Azrael_-: so in practise it doesn't work well to just compress.
14:41 < Azrael_-> Lope: right, didn't think of that
14:41 < noodlepie> or if you just want to backup the partition, "dd if=/dev/sda1 of=/root/MyBackup.image bs=1024"
14:42 < Lope> ah, i think it's ntfsclone
14:42 < noodlepie> Change the partition name to your NTFS partition and the file MyBackup.image will be a binary dump of your NTFS partition.
14:42 < jack_rip_vim> Lope, shred can rewrite the drive as zero
14:43 < Lope> it's definitely ntfsclone
14:43 < TheWild> hello
14:43 < jack_rip_vim> hi TheWild
14:44 < TheWild> puzzle for today. My current working directory consists entirely of 53 symlinks. How to remove *targets* instead of symlinks themselves?
14:45 < jack_rip_vim> TheWild: you want to remove the target, but no the symlinks?
14:46 < Azrael_-> TheWild: pass all symlinks to "stat", dereference the link, pass the result to rm
14:46 < TheWild> jack_rip_vim: yes, exactly
14:46 < jack_rip_vim> TheWild: ls -l should the symlinks target, rm it
14:46 < noodlepie> dd is a byte for byte copying steam from device/file to device/file
14:47 < noodlepie> Its part of the standard GNU Operating System/Operating Environment and exists on most poeple's computers.
14:48 < saberu> doesn't it require sudo or root user to bind a listener to a port?
14:49 < rascul> not necessarily
14:50 < saberu> i have this trojan backdoor file i'm researching and it's able to bind a listener on any user account
14:50 < saberu> I know that's crude because these days reverse backdoors with encryption are standard practice
14:50 < Azrael_-> afaik you only need elevated rights if you want to open a port <1024
14:50 < rascul> ports under 1024 require root or require capabilities
14:51 < saberu> Ahhh ok, that's interesting considering the security implications. thanks then
14:51 < jack_rip_vim> saberu: do you have the file, can I have a try with it?
14:53 < TheWild> ah dangit. Okay, rm $(find -printf '%l\n'). There are no subdirectories and target filenames have no spaces, so I think it's safe. Couldn't find a way to make stat print just target and in ls: -l means long format, -L stats targets but keeps the name of a symlink.
14:53 < TheWild> thanks for the hint though
14:54 < rascul> find -delete
14:54 < Azrael_-> TheWild: if you get too much output from one program you can modify the result e.g. using awk
14:54 < jack_rip_vim> I wonder why no delete symlinks with the targets
14:55 < saberu> jack_rip_vim, sure it's not dangerous at all as all the dangerous stuff has been removed
14:55 < saberu> but u can have a looky
14:56 < jack_rip_vim> saberu: OK, do you have a link?
15:02 < Lope> I'm trying to feed a qemu raw disk image into ntfsclone as a source, but it says "NTFS signature is missing". None of the ntfsclone examples are from disk images. Some are from the stdout though, so maybe I should pass it in with dd...
15:03 < saberu> dd would probably work better but would be slow
15:04 < Zexaron> Hello
15:05 < Zexaron> Git for Windows uses Bash MINGW64 MSYS and MINTTY, it's some kind of an enclosed system to emulate linux stuff afaik
15:05 < Zexaron> at the install process it copies some windows system files such as hosts, but I keep updating my windows hosts file regularly, but the one inside Git does not update
15:06 < Zexaron> is there a Bash command to update these things in this environment
15:06 < Zexaron> this is probably a MINGW64 department right, not necessairly Git Windows
15:07 < Lope> saberu: it seems that ntfsclone can only read from stdout for restoring, not creating images.
15:08 < TheWild> Can't read from some sectors of this funky HDD. I thought it's just error-correction mechanism not able to reconstruct the data and that writing to the sector would reinitialize it, but nooo, it's not even writable. SMART still considers it "pending".
15:09 < TheWild> 3 days ago current pending sector count: was 2, now it's 704.
15:11 < Lope> how can I mount a raw qemu NTFS image? I tried `mount -o loop foo.img /mnt/bar` but it said "NTFS signature is missing."
15:12 < TheWild> is that a whole disk image or just single partition?
15:13 < TheWild> maybe "fdisk -l foo.img" will say something
15:13 < debkad> Lope: may be you need an offset for that ( depend on the type image )
15:14 < Lope> debkad: ah, thanks. I JUST realized that, thanks
15:14 < Lope> debkad: if I want to dd the image into ntfsclone, can I use skip=2048 ?
15:15 < Lope> ah, I think seek=2048
15:16 < saberu> yeh you will want it to start from the ntfs partition start byte/ header whatever it's called
15:16 < Lope> When I run fdisk -l on the raw qemu NTFS disk image, it shows the first partition starts at 2048
15:16 < Lope> But I get the same error
15:17 < furrymcgee> Zexaron: try cygwin there is /etc/hosts: symbolic link to /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/drivers/etc/hosts
15:17 < Lope> `mount -o loop,offset=2048 foo.img /mnt/bar`
15:18 < Lope> ok, got it working, multiplied by sector size
15:20 < Lope> `dd if=foo.img seek=1048576 bs=4M` illegal seek?
15:20 < Lope> oops, need skip, lol.
15:22 < Lope> `dd if=foo.img skip=1048576 bs=4M | pv | dd of=/dev/null` This is copying 0 bytes... why?
15:22 < Lope> 0 records in, 0 records out.
15:22 < Zexaron> furrymcgee: yeah now I got similar talk in mingw, but it looks like it's not mingw either, the stuff is in Git/etc and mingw is separate unrelated directory
15:23 < lukey_> Lope: skip= and seek= use blocks (i.e. bs=) not sectors from the source media
15:23 < Lope> lukey, oh, I see
15:23 < Lope> So I should set the bs to 1048576 and skip to 1?
15:23 < mawk> it's a bit too high
15:23 < lukey_> Lope: Also losetup -P is way easier
15:24 < Lope> lukey_: well I got losetup working, but want to see if DD is an option, it's cleaner and I'll get progress from PV
15:24 < lukey_> Lope: bs=512 skip=2048 if anything, but that depens on where the partition starts
15:24 < Lope> lukey_: people say a bigger block size is faster
15:25 < lukey_> Lope: fdisk -l can also operate on files btw.
15:25 < Lope> lukey_: normally a block size of 4M is recommended for DD operations
15:25 < Lope> or at least 1M. not tiny like 512 bytes
15:26 < Lope> Ah, I see 1048576 is 1M
15:26 < lukey_> ...
15:26 < lukey_> Lope: bs=1M skip=1 could also work
15:26 < Lope> yeah, that's what I've done
15:27 < Lope> nah, ntfsclone can't read from stdin for creating images, only restoring, will use the mount method.
15:29 < lukey_> Lope: Or use clonezillal like everyone else :)
15:29 < lukey_> Oh ignore that ^
15:31 < Lope> is there a way to created a named loopback device?
15:31 < Lope> I don't want to script loop0 in case it's in use.
15:31 < Lope> Seems very primitive having numbers.
15:32 < Lope> that's one reason I wanted to avoid losetup
15:33 < Lope> oh, I see losetup -f does the job.
15:36 < Lope> ntfsclone "ERROR(2): Failed to check '/dev/loop0p1' mount state: No such file or directory"
15:38 < Lope> I tried mounting it but mount fails: mount: special device /dev/loop0p1 does not exist
15:38 < Lope> yet fdisk -l /dev/loop0 shows it
15:38 < Lope> Maybe I need to run partprobe
15:39 < Lope> ok, that worked.
15:39 < debkad> Lope: take a look at this one https://softwarebakery.com/shrinking-images-on-linux ( just for the hint )
15:40  * debkad is not available for the moment
15:40 < Lope> oh thank god. It's finally working.
15:41 < Lope> ah, turns out I didn't need pv. The ntfsclone gives nice status output.
15:42 < Hdphn> triceratux: you there?
15:42 < triceratux> Hdphn: thatd be telling
15:43 < Lope> Now I have another problem. After running losetup -d /dev/loop0 /dev/loop0p1 lingers there and I can't get rid of it.
15:43 < Lope> losetup -d /dev/loop0p1 doesn't work.
15:43 < Hdphn> triceratux: do you prefer blackarch or kali or parrotOS
15:43 < Hdphn> as main OS also for development and security work
15:44 < plexigras> is there a way to recover a file from memory or am i doomed?
15:45 < Lope> ok, rm worked.
15:45 < Lope> rm /dev/loop0p*
15:45 < phogg> plexigras: does any process still have an open filehandle on the file?
15:45 < plexigras> im not sure
15:45 < plexigras> i dont think so
15:45 < Hdphn> triceratux: I wanna try kubuntu however its missing all the tools in its repo
15:46 < phogg> plexigras: in what way is the file in memory?
15:46 < Hdphn> or hopping to KDE Manjaro
15:46 < plexigras> i dont know if it is
15:46 < plexigras> it is probably not
15:47 < phogg> there's a faint chance of recovery from ext3 with ext3grep
15:47 < plexigras> i ran `echo hey -> somefile` and if forgot the "" and wich fucked things up pretty badly
15:47 < triceratux> Hdphn: thats an interesting choice. id put parrotsec at the top of that list, although i havent booted blackarch. kali has disadvantages, arch is arch, parrotsec is a faithful image of debian testing, properly configured to be a pentesting distro with the benefit of a sane desktop
15:47 < triceratux> Hdphn: but thats just me ;)
15:49 < triceratux> its hard to say anything bad about parrotsec actually https://www.linux.com/learn/security/parrot-security-could-be-your-next-security-tool
15:50 < Hdphn> triceratux: I found one annoying thing with parrot tbh
15:50 < Hdphn> thats sandboxing
15:50 < Hdphn> it doesnt let me use other apps outside of sandbox environment
15:51 < Hdphn> is there a way to disable sandboxed environment that parrotOS loads you with
15:52 < mawk> use a normal distro
15:55 < triceratux> Hdphn: yer way ahead of me on that one. if its just apparmour it should be possible to deactivate or configure it https://blog.parrotsec.org/parrot-3-10-is-out/
15:56 < Hdphn> mawk: such as
15:56 < mawk> debian
15:56 < Hdphn> goddamnit every distro sucks so bad in one way or another. cant this huge community focus on one and create one beast rather than 1000 crippled OSes
15:56 < triceratux> looks like when they were still using firejail they had to work around it, yeah https://community.parrotsec.org/t/unable-to-run-odt2txt/500
15:57 < dgurney> Hdphn, no, that would never work
15:57 < Hdphn> triceratux: yup this one
15:58 < psamim> @psamim Hey
15:59 < Hdphn> triceratux: its such a pain to run entire path rather than just name
15:59 < Hdphn> to bypass firejail
15:59 < triceratux> nah id rather assemble a bunch of hitherto disparate technologies, bolt them together so they barely work, accrue some kind of cult following, & then disappear like the voidlinux guy leaving the community holding the bag & needing to fork the distro just to keep it maintained
15:59 < Hdphn> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
16:00 < Hdphn> no wonder linux can never beat windows or macOS in desktop of the year.
16:00 < Hdphn> with stuff like that
16:00 < mawk> you're using a distro that you don't need nor understand and you dare call it not ergonomic ?
16:00 < lukey_> Oh noes
16:01 < Hdphn> mawk: I use arch. and guess whhat? it breaks more often than you would possibly think
16:01 < mawk> yeah it's arch
16:01 < Hdphn> I use arch because it has up to date software for my development work
16:02 < Hdphn> is there any decent stable rolling release distro?
16:02 < notmike> Hdphn: arch
16:02 < Hdphn> lol no thanks
16:02 < Hdphn> it just broke on me this morning
16:03 < lukey_> Hdphn: what broke?
16:03 < Hdphn> its a shame I have to re install other OS all over again and can never get back to work
16:03 < notmike> run Manjaro or Antergos or any of the derivatives that will do the things you don't know how to do for you, mostly.
16:03 < Hdphn> lukey_: KDE + Hexchat + js5, (fixed js5 thou)
16:03 < Hdphn> notmike: lol. typical arch fan answer
16:03 < notmike> Hdphn: I'd suggest you use slackware but if you can't manage arch ... yikes :B
16:03 < Hdphn> notmike: planning for manjaro thou. as it is proven to be more stable than arch
16:04 < notmike> Manjaro is pretty sexy last I looked
16:04 < notmike> good dev community
16:04 < Hdphn> yea
16:04 < Hdphn> and more stable than arch
16:05 < notmike> depends on the arch
16:05 < lukey_> Hdphn: what about debian testing?
16:05 < MrElendig> "stable"
16:05 < notmike> Debian is a good way to have your whole operation just blow up.
16:06 < Hdphn> lukey_: not large repo. lacks AUR and other security tools that I require
16:06 < Hdphn> in its repo
16:06 < noodlepie> Debian is convenient but I like Gentoo source packages as they optimize for your computer perfectly.
16:06 < MrElendig> https://github.com/manjaro/packages-core/blob/master/manjaro-system/manjaro-update-system.sh
16:06 < Hdphn> whats wrong with that MrElendig
16:07 < MrElendig> fragile shellscript that does some insane asumptions
16:08 < gurki> noodlepie: optimize how exactly? everything apart from x86 died on desktops
16:08 < Hdphn> MrElendig: what if I use pacman -Syu instead of using this script
16:11 < triceratux> manjaro is finally ahead of mint on the default 6mo distrowatch tabulation https://distrowatch.com/
16:12 < Hdphn> distrowatch is reliable source to judge distro strength?
16:12 < Hdphn> or it just gathers clicks
16:12 < Hdphn> lol
16:12 < Oxyz> hi! Is there any simple way to convert a simple LVM to RAID5 ? I guess using mdadm ?
16:12 < tx> distrowatch is for linux users who gamble on horses ;)
16:12 < MrElendig> Hdphn: a distro with literally 5 users were #1 for a while
16:12 < triceratux> its the least rough of the rough indicators
16:12 < SporkWitch> Hdphn: clicks, which isn't a terrible way to gauge interest
16:13 < lukey_> Oxyz: Does you Data fit on a single disk?
16:13 < phogg> Hdphn: there are no good metrics for distribution popularity or stability
16:13 < MrElendig> Oxyz: how many disks do you have?
16:13 < SporkWitch> MrElendig: i mean, that sounds like working as intended.  distrowatch is a measure of interest, after all
16:13 < MrElendig> Oxyz: also lvm can do raid5ish
16:13 < phogg> or quality
16:13 < Oxyz> lukey_: naha..  have 4 disk with 3.5Tb of data..  one can be removed from the LVM...
16:13 < notmike> Slackware is the best. Everything else is just a future disappointment that will one day lead you to embrace slackware.
16:14 < MrElendig> SporkWitch: sure, if you mean that having a simple bot totally skew the results is intended
16:14 < SporkWitch> and yet i haven't bothered with slackware in close to two decades...
16:14 < gurki> slack still exists?
16:14 < phogg> I last used slackware almost 20 years ago.
16:14 < Hdphn> phogg: what do you use now
16:14 < SporkWitch> MrElendig: maybe the bot was really interested? :P
16:14 < phogg> Hdphn: Debian
16:14 < Oxyz> MrElendig: 4 in use..  0 to play with.. or, well.. can remove one from the LVM..
16:14 < Hdphn> phogg: tried arch?
16:14 < MrElendig> Oxyz: raid5 is a waste of time then really
16:15 < Oxyz> MrElendig: raid5ish ?!
16:15 < SporkWitch> i strongly want to read that as "radish"...
16:15 < Oxyz> was looking into btrfs.. but well.. living on the edge :)
16:15 < phogg> Hdphn: Ugh, no. Arch is what happens when amateurs manage to make something compile and think they're leet haxorz. Stay far away if you value your sanity or your time.
16:15 < dgurney> I've tried Slackware a few times. it's cool, but I wouldn't use it as my main distro
16:15 < SporkWitch> Oxyz: it's actually quite stable.  the main thing keeping them from bumping it from experimental to production-ready is some issues with raid5
16:16 < MrElendig> Oxyz: lvm hs an allocation policy that works sort of like raid5
16:16 < lukey_> Oxyz: You could *try* "lvconvert --type raid5 <VG>/<LV>", but be prepared to restore from you Backup
16:16 < Oxyz> SporkWitch: write hole effect!?
16:17 < SporkWitch> ?
16:17 < j0seph> Hdphn: no idea if manjaro is trustable. the idea of an arch that's more user friendly is cool but in my experience, having things set up for you + bleeding edge isn't a good combo
16:17 < Oxyz> lukey_: Backup ?!  ;)
16:17 < MrElendig> j0seph: they told everyone to turn back the clock when they messed up the ssl cerst... 3 times...
16:17 < dgurney> I use Gentoo myself, mainly because of the flexibility
16:18 < Oxyz> lukey_: but yes.. that is probably exactly what Im looking for...  but that is a long shoot.. with lvconvert ?
16:18 < MrElendig> instead of just getting it fixed in a reasonably amount of time, or take the site offline until it was fixed
16:18 < noodlepie> Gentoo! Gentoo!
16:18 < phogg> Hdphn: A distribution should be a framework for installing arbitrary software and any combination I choose should integrate smoothly together without effort on my part. Distributions which don't provide choice, or which make me do mundane work, or aren't consistent are useless to me. Only Debian ticks all the boxes.
16:18 < Hdphn> j0seph: what do you use
16:18 < Hdphn> phogg: very true
16:18 < Hdphn> I agree +1
16:18 < j0seph> Hdphn: arch, which is probably of no surprise to you haha
16:18 < Hdphn> phogg: stable or testing?
16:18 < noodlepie> My Gentoo laptop is perfectly configured for optimized everything.
16:18 < j0seph> MrElendig: ouch.
16:18 < MrElendig> anyway, do a backup before you mess with this lvm array if you care about your data
16:18 < SporkWitch> j0seph: the problem with manjaro is that they try for greater stability, which means delays in patch availability.  All well and good if it were feature-related only, but because it's downstream from arch and arch doesn't differentiate between feature and security patches, this means that critical vulnerability patch gets the same delay as the patch that adds the new blue colour theme
16:18 < triceratux> MrElendig: no doubt. real arch users just say SigLevel = Never
16:19 < Hdphn> noodlepie: hahah no thanks. aint nobody got time for that
16:19 < MrElendig> j0seph: they have a history of holding back critical security updates in the name of "stability"
16:19 < phogg> Hdphn: Stable is the only choice for serious business. For personal use I generally make a frankendebian.
16:19 < j0seph> MrElendig, SporkWitch: This is my point. Stability and Bleeding Edge don't really go hand in hand.
16:19 < noodlepie> I used to run Debian unstable on our servers, 20 years ago
16:20 < jack_rip_vim> rolling release~
16:20 < SporkWitch> j0seph: they could manage it if upstream differentiated security and non-security patches
16:20 < MrElendig> j0seph: manjaro doesn't have the manpower required really (nor the skills in many cases)
16:20 < jack_rip_vim> 20 years old machine still can run Debian
16:20 < lukey_> Oxyz: lvconvert is the only way i see in this case, because you can't build a partly initialized md raid5 with just one disk
16:21 < SporkWitch> kubuntu on my workstations, debian on most of my servers, centos on my mailserver (i like kolab, and it's better-maintained for rhel/centos
16:21 < phogg> Rolling release distributions are a good choice if having things occasionally break is your cup of tea.
16:21 < MrElendig> https://forum.manjaro.org/t/manjaro-installers-password-weakness/26322/27
16:21 < j0seph> MrElendig: this is a shame because the idea of a bleeding edge distro more accessable to the layman sounds good.
16:21 < SporkWitch> phogg: which is why i never run arch on production; can be fun to mess around with on a machine you can afford to have break, though
16:21 < MrElendig> j0seph: it is in no way bleeding edge (arch is also not bleeding edge really)
16:21 < jack_rip_vim> I will drink it before cup break
16:21 < Oxyz> lukey_: ok..  and in a 4 disk setup with 1 free it would be enough to convert to RAID5.. right ?
16:22 < phogg> SporkWitch: yeah, arch as a server would be a nightmare. Unless you just never update, or update on a non-live system and transfer images or something.
16:22 < j0seph> MrElendig: pardon me in that regard, which is the correct term?
16:22 < MrElendig> Oxyz: see my comment about backups if you care about the data
16:22 < triceratux> at least manjaro finally has a dw clickbot that stays up for 6mo at a time the way mints does
16:22 < SporkWitch> phogg: well, you shouldn't be upgrading production without testing first anyway, but still
16:22 < MrElendig> j0seph: arch as a general rule only ships stable releases from upstream
16:22 < phogg> SporkWitch: although to be honest even RHEL point releases can blow stuff up. You've got to test.
16:22 < MrElendig> j0seph: bleeding edge would be running the devel trees etc
16:22 < j0seph> phogg: no sane human should use arch as a server.
16:22 < Oxyz> MrElendig: roger..
16:23 < jack_rip_vim> arch is stable recently
16:23 < j0seph> MrElendig: fair fair.
16:23 < SporkWitch> phogg: you should always be testing, but RHEL does strive for stability; you're paying for a reason
16:23 < phogg> jack_rip_vim: arch is unstable by design
16:23 < SporkWitch> phogg: and that reason includes professional support
16:23 < phogg> SporkWitch: and yet I keep stepping on SELinux land mines
16:23 < lukey_> Oxyz: I don't know what kind of magic LVM might apply :D
16:24 < SporkWitch> phogg: i've actually never had any issues with selinux; no disrespect intended, but i suspect most of the issues are people not really getting it and so they just leave things at defaults
16:24 < jack_rip_vim> At least, recently, when I run archlinux, not big problem with me
16:24 < Oxyz> mdadm, could that be an alternative ? But I guess I cant start with just one disk..
16:24 < j0seph> personally i just use ubuntu for serversm as that's what I know better out of the distros i'd consider choosing for a VPS
16:25 < notmike> using Debian is just begging to have your personal data stolen, much malware, MitM attacks, Nibiru 2020
16:25 < SporkWitch> my big problem with arch is the heavy dependence on AUR for basically anything that isn't bundled with any other workstation distro, combined with the CONSTANT issues of people failing to update keys properly, forcing manual fixes
16:25 < phogg> SporkWitch: I've had updated packages change policies to prevent things that used to be allowed, breaking local programs that used to work. After the first couple times I started checking for policy changes after updates before even trying to start my apps.
16:25 < jack_rip_vim> bad news is, archlinux no supprt i386 any more
16:25 < lukey_> Oxyz: The plan with mdadm would be to Initialize the array with one disk missing (that would hold you old data) and then lvmove that data to the md raid5
16:26 < notmike> x86 isn't really all that useful anymore from what I've been told. we just know bigger numbers and stuff now. very sophisticate
16:26 < phogg> notmike: troll less?
16:26 < Oxyz> lukey_: yea..  but since I only have 1 disk..  can you even create an array with 2 disk missing ?! :-D
16:26 < jack_rip_vim> Oh God!
16:26 < SporkWitch> phogg: fair; things should NOT be changing policy without warning messages and confirmations.  Like when things catch a modified config file and prompt you to leave it alone or replace it with the new default from upstream
16:27 < jack_rip_vim> I can't use archlinux in my old computer any more
16:27 < debkad> same
16:27 < j0seph> SporkWitch: sometimes aur pulls their packages from some funny places. i checked one time and a theme i wanted to download was pulling from someone's dropbox.
16:27 < phogg> SporkWitch: Yeah, but it happens a lot. Especially if you start using any software collections or things that are less "main". It's the wild west there.
16:27 < Hdphn> phogg: whats frankendebian
16:27 < cmj> ubuntu?
16:28 < cmj> ;p
16:28 < phogg> Hdphn: where you mix and match packages without regard to release version. E.g. install stable, then install a package from testing. Frankendebian.
16:28 < SporkWitch> j0seph: the most common problem i ran into was with discord.  without exagerration, nearly every patch required fixing keys for dependency packages in the AUR
16:29 < jack_rip_vim> why debian is frankendebian
16:29 < jack_rip_vim> ?
16:29 < j0seph> SporkWitch: ah yes i wanted to mention that to you. with each major discord update, the aur doesn;t actually update it for me. it keeps prompting me with that "it's your lucky day!" message, and I have to uninstall and reinstall discord from the aur to get it to work.
16:29 < lukey_> Oxyz: raid6 could do that
16:29 < j0seph> unless you know of some better way?
16:29 < phogg> Hdphn: just mixing in a few packages from stable+1 *usually* doesn't cause much problems (depends on the packages), but when you start mixing stable, testing, sid, experimental and others on one box the result is a broken nightmare. It's all okay as long as you never ever blame Debian for it or need to ask for help with it.
16:30 < jack_rip_vim> I compile from source code~
16:30 < lukey_> Hdphn: sid = unstable. For reference
16:30 < phogg> jack_rip_vim: you should only install on a Debian box packages built for the specific release you are running, whether from the main repos or from backports or backported locally. When you mix packages built for different releases (even only one) the result is a frankendebian and *ALL* bets are off as to whether it works.
16:31 < Hdphn> is anyone here using / used fedora? how is fedora
16:31 < Hdphn> I want feedback on that
16:31 < Hdphn> asap!
16:31 < dgurney> Hdphn, it's great
16:31 < Hdphn> dgurney: using fedora?
16:31 < SporkWitch> j0seph: that's a result of discord not being written to run the package manager (how could it? too many, and the main discord package in AUR is the ubuntu deb).  I'm referring to the issue with wrong key in the AUR package file, and the deps for the discord package almost always have wrong key
16:31 < j0seph> Hdphn: keeps your head nice and warm, impresses the ladies
16:31 < Hdphn> lol
16:31 < phogg> j0seph: looks stylish, too
16:31 < Hdphn> dont get it.
16:31 < dgurney> Hdphn, I don't use it right now, but I've used it enough to know that it's fantastic
16:31 < jack_rip_vim> phogg: Oh, I see.
16:31 < dgurney> especially with newer hardware
16:31 < phogg> I assume everyone here owns a red fedora with a black band
16:31 < Hdphn> better than arch?
16:32 < dgurney> Hdphn, they can't be properly compared
16:32 < phogg> Hdphn: pretty much everything is better than arch
16:32 < dgurney> but it's good
16:32 < SporkWitch> i've never actually run fedora...
16:32 < noodlepie> Gentoo and Debian are the only Linux I consider
16:32 < oerheks> Hdphn, how is arch?
16:32 < Hdphn> phogg: haha
16:32 < dgurney> noodlepie, I think we all know by now
16:32 < noodlepie> hehe
16:32 < j0seph> SporkWitch: libc++, isn't it? because I've encountered that before. many, many times.
16:32 < Hdphn> arch broke on me. thinking of fedora or manjaro or debian. confused. fedora might lack a lot of packages
16:32 < SporkWitch> oerheks: arch can be fun, and depending on the type of learner you are, it can be really good for learning since it forces you to figure things out
16:32 < lukey_> Hdphn: You could also go with stable Distro and anythin you want in an LXC container
16:32 < noodlepie> Debian!
16:32 < phogg> Hdphn: Arch is supposed to do that. Don't run it if you don't like that behavior.
16:32 < Hdphn> lukey_: ok will see
16:33 < Hdphn> phogg: haha
16:33 < SporkWitch> Hdphn: of those, i'd go debian, especially for a workstation
16:33 < Hdphn> ok
16:33 < Hdphn> why not fedora
16:33 < notmike> Hdphn: if you want rolling release and up-to-date packages you should opt for arch, fedora, OpenSUSE, Manjaro, Gentoo, slackware, something like that.
16:33 < triceratux> im on a derivative of F28 right now. most solid fedora ive ever seen https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/04/fedora_28/ https://ru.fedoracommunity.org/stories/download/
16:33 < dgurney> Hdphn, Fedora doesn't lack packages, especially when you enable rpmfusion
16:33 < Hdphn> fedora isnt a rolling release
16:33 < jack_rip_vim> Compiling from source is more fun, but it takes a lot of time.
16:33 < j0seph> 'fun'
16:33 < SporkWitch> Hdphn: all comes down to software support, and the debians have the most (whatever your opinion of canonical, the success of ubuntu has made deb _the_ go-to package standard for almost anything you might want on a personal machine)
16:34 < Hdphn> triceratux: nice
16:34 < jack_rip_vim> j0seph: yeah
16:34 < Hdphn> triceratux: what derivative
16:34 < j0seph> jack_rip_vim: forgive me being blunt but i don't see how compiling it from source - or installing the binary for that matter - is 'fun'. you get the same software.
16:34 < SporkWitch> jack_rip_vim: i had gentoo on a 486 once, don't talk to me about compile times lol
16:34 < jack_rip_vim> j0seph: you should try that, and you can learn more from it
16:35 < triceratux> fedora are showing indications of releasing on time without delays. that could effectively amount to a viable nearly rolling release distro. Hdphn: RFRemix 28
16:35 < j0seph> jack_rip_vim: i have done it, and still do.
16:35 < Azrael_-> the only disappointing point: if you want some cutting edge feature you don't have those in the standard packages of debian. obviously as they are too new and potentially unstable
16:35 < jack_rip_vim> SporkWitch: I bet you have a new computer
16:35 < Hdphn> I have old laptop
16:35 < phogg> Azrael_-: and that's what VMs are for
16:35 < Hdphn> so I dont care about updated kernel. however I care about updated libraries.
16:36 < phogg> Hdphn: how old is "old"?
16:36 < jack_rip_vim> SporkWitch: j0seph, you two should try with it on a dual core, 16ghz 2GB 32bit old computer
16:36 < Hdphn> 3rd gen i5 processor
16:36 < Hdphn> phogg:
16:36 < jack_rip_vim> s/16ght/1.6ghz
16:36 < j0seph> 16ghz, he's living in the future
16:36 < SporkWitch> jack_rip_vim: did you not just see me say i ran gentoo on a 486 before?
16:36 < j0seph> tell us your secrets
16:37 < jack_rip_vim> SporkWitch: yes
16:37 < jack_rip_vim> SporkWitch: how long have you been compiling all the source code?
16:37 < SporkWitch> jack_rip_vim: then why are you saying to run on something almost as ancient, but MUCH better, than the example i gave?
16:37 < j0seph> i don't see how that is 'fun' in any case jack_rip_vim.
16:37 < SporkWitch> jack_rip_vim: kernel took about 8 hours
16:37 < j0seph> it's just tedious.
16:38 < jack_rip_vim> SporkWitch: that sounds awful than me
16:38 < j0seph> you want the software, so you either compile it or download the binary. if it takes hours to use what you want when you may want to use it right away, i am unsure how this is fun
16:38 < SporkWitch> j0seph: getting down in the weeds can be fun, neat to see how much you can tweak things
16:38 < maccampus> WoW i hope i never have to compile my OWN kernel
16:38 < dgurney> maccampus, it's not bad at all on modern hardware
16:38 < SporkWitch> ^
16:38 < SporkWitch> maccampus: 8 hours was on a 486 with 48MB of RAM lol
16:38 < j0seph> SporkWitch: this is true, though i'm more referring to compile times
16:39 < phogg> maccampus: it's really not a bother, just so long as you get the necessary modules into your initarmfs
16:39 < SporkWitch> j0seph: that's just the price of admission, not the part that can be fun
16:39 < phogg> the advantage of compiling your own kernel is you get to go through all the config options and learn about all the choices you didn't know you had
16:39 < j0seph> SporkWitch: believe me, i would flip shit if compiling my kernel took 8 hours. i am patient, but not that patient.
16:39 < jack_rip_vim> Actullay, when I saw I made it, I felt so happy
16:40 < phogg> and then you can compile out stuff that you'd never ever care to use
16:40 < j0seph> though i'm using modern hardware, so no 8 hour compile times thankfully
16:40 < SporkWitch> j0seph: when you're a teenager in the 90's, you run what you can get lol.  When my pop bought a P1, i got the old computer lol
16:40 < phogg> Quick, do you need HIGHMEM? What's "High" anyway? Do you want to enable experimental features?
16:40 < j0seph> SporkWitch: suppose we're all a bit too spoiled now then haha
16:41 < j0seph> i tell you, i would love one of those dell xps 15s right about now
16:42 < SporkWitch> asus made a limited-run ridiculous laptop; thing even had a mechanical keyboard lol
16:42  * jack_rip_vim thanks to all the distro contributor, without your guys help, I can't move.
16:42 < dgurney> speaking of modern hardware, I'll build a new system around a r5 2600x with the graduation money I've been promised in the near future
16:42 < dgurney> since I can reuse a ton of stuff I already have, it won't be too expensive
16:43 < SporkWitch> i won't touch ATI; shit drivers
16:43 < dgurney> yes, old ATI cards weren't that good, I agree
16:43 < SporkWitch> theh cards were fine, the drivers were the problem
16:44 < dgurney> luckily amdgpu is amazing
16:44 < dgurney> one of the things I'll reuse in that system is my rx580 4gb
16:44 < SporkWitch> nvidia's still better performance, more reliable, and actually sees developer support
16:45 < dgurney> sure, but I want to avoid out-of-tree stuff whenever possible
16:45 < maccampus> Is the ati Vega supported ?
16:45 < dgurney> *amd
16:45 < dgurney> and yes, with a modern kernel
16:45 < SporkWitch> i'm really glad AMD has finally gotten over their APU obsession that was killing their discrete performance.  All well and good to maintain the better price-to-performance ratio vs intel, but i'm glad they've finally back in the top overall performance slot
16:46 < jack_rip_vim> 8086 archite \o/
16:46 < compdoc> next amd cpu I buy will be ryzen with gpu = apu
16:46 < kaos> x86 is so ugly :C
16:46 < SporkWitch> my next planned build is a 16 core threadripper, 32GB RAM, and a pair of GTX1060s
16:46 < compdoc> servers dont need to waste a pci-e slot
16:46 < SporkWitch> compdoc: discrete CPU and GPU != APU...
16:47 < SporkWitch> compdoc: servers don't need graphics, full-stop
16:47 < compdoc> I need a console
16:47 < Armand> SporkWitch: But, Windows!
16:47 < dgurney> not a bad planned build at all
16:47  * Armand runs away...
16:47 < SporkWitch> compdoc: no you don't, it's called ssh
16:48 < phogg> SporkWitch: I am literally pricing out one of those right now, except twice the ram and a slightly different GTX card. Trying to see if the prices have become reasonable enough to buy now.
16:48 < j0seph> SporkWitch: i'm using nvidia on my desktop, and KDE really doesn't play well with it, mainly because i think nvidia is playing by their own rules and not integrating into some widely-used graphics stack?
16:48 < dgurney> I would replace the video cards with AMD ones due to previously mentioned reasons, but nvidia is still a good choice if you don't care and need stuff like cuda
16:48 < compdoc> I use ssh, x2go, and the console when I build. and I wont waste a slot on a gpu if I can help. the world needs onboard gpus
16:48 < dgurney> j0seph, yes, nvidia doesn't play nice with Wayland
16:48 < SporkWitch> j0seph: you'll need to specify what's not working for you
16:49 < dgurney> with xorg nvidia stuff works acceptably however
16:49 < phogg> My main tower gaming box is still an Athlon64XP. I have been waiting for another compelling AMD CPU and now it is finally time.
16:49 < j0seph> SporkWitch: compositor problems (mainly with black artifacting upon changing focus of windows / opening child windows) and performance (slow). this is all i can say.
16:49 < SporkWitch> phogg: my reasoning for the 1060 is they're (relatively) cheap and still great performance.  I already have one 1060 from my desktop that died last fall (the mobo and CPU were from 2010; it had a good run), so i'm really only buying one GPU, and the reason for that is so i can do pass-through on the second for anything that won't run in WINE
16:50 < j0seph> dgurney: i am using xorg, i do not use wayland
16:50 < SporkWitch> j0seph: i've not encountered that; binary drivers?
16:50 < Armand> phogg: Athlon 64 x2 ?
16:50 < dgurney> oh, well I guess nvidia is more problematic than I thought then j0seph
16:50 < phogg> Armand: model name	: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4600+
16:51 < j0seph> SporkWitch: yep, nvidia's proprietary stuff straight from the arch official repos (as in, not the AUR)
16:51 < Armand> Yeah, x2.. the XP was before the Athlon 64. :)
16:51 < jack_rip_vim> I remember it support 64mb graphic
16:52 < phogg> SporkWitch: I'm seriously thinking about being stupid and buying a 1080. Still talking myself in to it.
16:52 < compdoc> phogg, you sure got your money's worth on the computer
16:52 < j0seph> SporkWitch, dgurney: granted i managed to mainly fix these problems myself, it was something to do with nvidia-settings using vsync, and the compositor also using vsync. and then i found out that the performance issues i was having with TF2 was actually just TF2 being slower on linux because it runs on a layer that converts dx9 calls to opengl calls
16:52 < jack_rip_vim> phogg: you can have a look at secondhand market, there are other powerful CPU
16:52 < phogg> compdoc: yep
16:52 < dgurney> 1080 or higher is not worth it unless you need the compute performance or game at high framerates or resolutions
16:53 < phogg> Armand: I actually had both at different imes, confused myself.
16:53 < compdoc> the diff in performance between that old thing and a modern cpu, board, and ssd is fairly great
16:53 < lukey_> My 0$ Gaming-machine has 6Gb DDR3, an Overclocked AMD A6-3500 (Llano tripple-core) and an Radeon HD4850 with 512Mb VRAM; Runs pretty much everything I throwed at it so far
16:53 < phogg> dgurney: I plan to use it for both.
16:55 < dgurney> Client: HexChat 2.14.1 • OS: Gentoo Linux "~amd64" • CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-7600K CPU @ 3.80GHz (4.90GHz) • Memory: 15.1 GiB Total (11.7 GiB Free) • Storage: 954.4 GB / 1.4 TB (432.9 GB Free) • VGA: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Ellesmere [Radeon RX 470/480/570/580] @ Intel Corporation Intel Kaby Lake Host Bridge • Uptime: 1d 0h 35m 17s
16:55 < dgurney> current main desktop
16:55 < jack_rip_vim> dgurney: you have a good computer
16:55 < dgurney> indeed
16:55 < Armand> phogg: I've still got an x2 hanging around somewhere.
16:56  * jack_rip_vim will till use an old secondhand computer, because Linux is suit for it.
16:57 < SporkWitch> phogg: unless you're doing VR, i'm not sure what the point would be.  The only things that really tax hardware these days are Star Citizen and VR
16:57 < jack_rip_vim> s/till/still
16:57 < phogg> SporkWitch: VR is supposedly coming to Linux... eventually
16:58 < dgurney> I know full well that an upgrade isn't strictly necessary for this machine, but since I'll have the money soonish, might as well move to a non-dead end platform
16:58 < SporkWitch> phogg: it's already here, i thought...
16:58 < j0seph> SporkWitch: i have recently been debating starting to save for an AMD GPU (Vega, maybe), do you think you would be able to talk me out of that so I can save some money?
16:58 < phogg> dgurney: why so little ram?
16:58 < jml2> compdoc, x2go is amazing
16:58 < jml2> compdoc, better than vnc
16:58 < dgurney> phogg, because I don't need more than 16GB right now
16:58 < jml2> compdoc, good choice lol
16:58 < compdoc> yeah it really is
16:59 < phogg> SporkWitch: in a manner of speaking. You still have to be on the bleeding edge to have it right now.
16:59 < SporkWitch> j0seph: yeah, buy nvidia, the drivers aren't shit and it actually gets support from game devs
16:59 < jml2> steam supports nvidia as #1
16:59 < jml2> so yeah nvidia!! go go go!!
16:59 < j0seph> SporkWitch: even for linux, the support is better there also?
16:59 < jack_rip_vim> GPU GO GO GO!
16:59 < dgurney> nvidia is not the best choice for general linux support, but for linux gaming? absolutely
17:00 < dgurney> of course, that may change in the future
17:00 < phogg> I have to agree, if you're gaming on Linux nvidia is a much better experience. If you're not gaming focused anything else is fine too and you can still play most games.
17:00 < SporkWitch> j0seph: massively; hell, until relatively recently on-board graphics regularly outperformed discrete ATI GPUs, due to just how horrifically bad ATI drivers are
17:00 < SporkWitch> phogg: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=SteamVR-Vive-Pro-Linux
17:00 < jack_rip_vim> I really want to try the 3D Desktop Environment. But computer is kind of old
17:00 < dgurney> I dual-boot Windows for gaming, so linux gaming compatibility is not necessary for me
17:00 < jml2> dgurney, fedora , and ubuntu and mageia offer the nvidia proprietary drive with much ease -- this makes it very well supported
17:01 < jml2> dgurney, I dont need to dual-boot.. lol
17:01 < SporkWitch> dgurney: that's what the second GPU is for: windows VM for anything that doesn't have a native release and won't behave in WINE
17:01 < j0seph> SporkWitch, dgurney, phogg: thanks, you've probably helped me save from money haha. I've an EVGA GTX 1070 SC on my main desktop so I'd say I won't need to replace it for a while.
17:01 < jml2> dgurney, there's good enough games for me on linux -- the latest tomb raider came out on linux recently..
17:01 < dgurney> SporkWitch, I'd rather game than fiddle with getting passthrough working right
17:02 < jml2> dgurney, and i've gotta say it's great that it was finally ported
17:02 < jml2> less reasons to hang onto windows
17:02 < SporkWitch> dgurney: qemu-kvm + virtmanager is pretty easy, as long as you have the hardware support
17:02 < jml2> dgurney, passthrough only works if qemu supports the right motherboard/cpu..
17:02 < dgurney> indeed
17:02 < jml2> doesn't work with all hardware, if the hardware doesn't have the specs then it will never work
17:02 < dgurney> which is the problem, I don't care enough to investigate that stuff
17:02  * jack_rip_vim envy your guys' computer 
17:03 < jml2> iirc you also shuold be using your system in uefi boot in order for passthrough to work best for video
17:03 < SporkWitch> dgurney: couple clicks is all it takes, only thing that kept me from doing it on my last machine was that the mobo supported it but the CPU didn't (had i waited just a few months i wouldn't have gotten burned, but i was moving to germany and rushed finishing the build for fear of difficulties ordering parts overseas)
17:04 < dgurney> cool I guess
17:04 < dgurney> I have no trouble with a dual-boot setup, so I'll stick to that
17:04 < SporkWitch> dgurney: besides, the effort and time expended getting it set up once is far less than the annoyance of constant reboots whenever you want to play that one game
17:05 < SporkWitch> i was forced to dual-boot before, but it's never desirable.  a VM is preferable, since it's easier to maintain and doesn't require never-ending reboots
17:05 < j0seph> i may try setting up passthrough on my desktop, though i may want to get rid of KDE on my desktop as it doesn't like my computer for some reason. suppose i'll give LXQt on there ago, even though i should probably be using KDE on my desktop and LXQt on my laptop logically rather than the other way around hahaha
17:05 < dgurney> here's the thing: when I game, I game for the entire day; so at most, it's 1 reboot
17:06 < dgurney> but yes, that's a fair point if you switch between tasks a lot
17:06 < dgurney> for other purposes I certainly use VMs whenever possible
17:06 < jack_rip_vim> dgurney: which game you like most?
17:07 < SporkWitch> dgurney: that's 2 more reboots than i'm interested in, not to mention windows patches.  With a VM you aren't stuck waiting for that 8 hour patch, just do something else on the host while windows does its retarded thing
17:07 < jack_rip_vim> dgurney: dota?
17:07 < SporkWitch> (and i WISH i were exagerating about an 8 hour patch, and no i'm not counting the download time)
17:09 < dgurney> jack_rip_vim, nah. I wouldn't say I have a favourite game, but some titles I've been playing recently: Skyrim, GTAV, Civilization IV, V, and VI, Minecraft, and many Wii games via dolphin
17:09 < dgurney> I've also been intending to replay through tomb raider (2013) and rise of the tomb raider at harder difficulty levels
17:09 < chipp> *re-play
17:10 < jack_rip_vim> dgurney: wow! YOu like Civilization, I haven't played it for a long time
17:10 < jml2> dgurney, rise-of-the-tomb-raider came out recently for linux
17:10 < SporkWitch> Monster Hunter World > all
17:10 < dgurney> jml2, I know
17:10 < dgurney> why else do you think I'm intending to replay it? :P
17:10 < jml2> monster hunter world, is that any good? lol
17:10  * jml2 googles online like a dragon for games! XDXDXD
17:10 < chipp> anyone play FFXIII ?
17:11 < chipp> or FF series
17:11 < SporkWitch> best one in tne series, though i do miss some of the old monsters (but they're regularly adding new ones; already put in Deviljho, and added a new huge monster)
17:11 < noodlepie> I play AssaultCubve and UrbanTerror mostly
17:11 < noodlepie> AssaultCube even.
17:11 < dgurney> and SporkWitch, luckily I've avoided many patch horror stories. Even upgrading to new 10 insider builds takes like 30min for me
17:11 < SporkWitch> jml2: ^
17:11 < jml2> lol i dont like rpg..
17:11 < chipp> why?
17:11 < dgurney> but I can imagine it taking more with spinning rust and lower-end machines
17:11 < dgurney> in fact, I know it takes longer
17:11 < jml2> i like action/adventure things  like sexy tomb raider XDXD
17:11 < chipp> it's great
17:11 < chipp> ic
17:11 < chipp> lol
17:11 < SporkWitch> dgurney: i've only had two 8-hour patches with win10, but even if the HDD were failing (it wasn't) there's no excuse for it
17:11 < dgurney> I've only recently got used to more luxurious desktop machines
17:12 < chipp> what abt fps?
17:12 < chipp> cs
17:12 < chipp> crysis
17:12 < chipp> cod
17:12 < dgurney> I didn't say that's acceptable, I just said I've never had such issues
17:12 < jack_rip_vim> I remember Sex tumb raider has some films, pretty cool
17:13 < jack_rip_vim> s/tumb/tomb
17:13 < SporkWitch> O.o
17:13 < jml2> noodlepie, i used to play urt for quite awhile...  got bored lol
17:13 < SporkWitch> urt?
17:13 < jml2> noodlepie, urt's engine sux... different maps change the mousing sensitivity...
17:14 < hiya> If I were to buy a linux laptop to setup it as a workstation with capability to run a Windows and Mac(Hackintosh) VMs smoothly for 3-5 years. What should I buy?
17:14 < SporkWitch> hiya: i'm fond of asus, and they even sell machine with linux pre-installed
17:14 < jack_rip_vim> CPU up I5, memory up 16GB
17:14 < dgurney> something with many cores and a plenty of ram
17:14 < dgurney> and good linux support ofc
17:15 < djph> hiya: "not a laptop"
17:16 < noodlepie> hiya, an i7 8 cpu minimum 8gb 1Tb hdd 256GB SSD of course!
17:16 < dgurney> or just a larger ssd
17:16 < SporkWitch> djph: naw, may be more expensive but laptop performance is pretty near parity with desktop these days
17:17 < jack_rip_vim> there are Mac VM~
17:17 < hiya> http://www.dell.com/in/business/p/precision-17-7720-laptop/pd < - I am thinking about this, with Intel Core Xeon E3-1535M v6 + 64GB RAM + NVIDIA Quadro P4000 with 8GB GDDR5 dedicated memory + M.2 PCIe NVMe 512GB | I am not rich, but I am earning by providing support to ppl on various platforms |
17:17 < SporkWitch> hiya: dell == no
17:17 < hiya> SporkWitch, Why?
17:17 < dgurney> dell is fine, honestly
17:18 < hiya> I am from India, no one else is selling updated mobile workstation
17:18 < SporkWitch> hiya: worthless support, parts that failed QA that they get for dirt
17:18 < dgurney> that does sound very overkill, but if you really need all that performance, go for it
17:18 < SporkWitch> hiya: also, unless you're doing rendering work (e.g. CGI) that quadro is 5k dollars wasted; it's worthless for games
17:18 < djph> SporkWitch: more of "laptops tend to be a right pain in the ass" with *nix support these days.  Also consumerism bullshit soldered-in non-upgradeable components.
17:19 < dgurney> it's not worthless for games, just unnecessary for them
17:19 < SporkWitch> djph: part of why i recommended asus.  nice, standard parts, good quality, and as stated, they sell machines with linux pre-installed
17:19 < dgurney> a quadro *will* run games at basically the same speeds as an equivalent geforce, but will just be an unnecessary expense
17:19 < SporkWitch> dgurney: it's worthless for games.  Quadro's aren't built for real-time rendering
17:19 < djph> SporkWitch: even non-soldered ram?
17:19 < SporkWitch> djph: yes
17:19 < SporkWitch> djph: asus isn't dell
17:19 < sam_S3pi0l> If you are wanting to run VMs, look for a laptop with a high max RAM allocation and at least a quad-core proc. Intel graphics chips work well enough for 2 simultaneous VM sessions, AMD would be more than enough for multiple VM sessions.
17:20 < jack_rip_vim> SporkWitch: Isn't Dell has ubuntu installed?
17:20 < djph> SporkWitch: last perusal thru the store, they were all soldered ... even the touted hi-end ones. BUT "perusal thru a store" may very well have been the problem there.
17:20 < SporkWitch> jack_rip_vim: they sell some, yes
17:20 < jack_rip_vim> s/Isn't/Doesnt
17:20 < dgurney> not worthless because they can run games well enough, but just not the right tool for the job
17:20 < SporkWitch> djph: on the asus laptops? O.o
17:20 < djph> SporkWitch: (by store, I mean brick & mortar establishment)
17:21 < djph> could very well have been "hi-end(tm)" -- which is really "garbage-end, but you're not looking for something better anyway"
17:21 < hiya> dgurney, I am on Dell 3542 with i5-4120U right now with 4GB of ram and INtel graphics and it even slows down when a HDMI cable is connected.
17:21 < dgurney> well it is quite old by now
17:21 < jack_rip_vim> I remember, earlier, Acer has opensuse installed
17:21 < dgurney> especially that ram amount, way too low
17:22 < sam_S3pi0l> hiya, that's your limited RAM working against you. The OS and graphics both take RAM from the pool to operate, so the limited 4GB are being swapped out a lot. Upgrade to 8GB and it should improve.
17:23 < dgurney> 8GB really is the recommended minimum these days
17:23 < sam_S3pi0l> hiya, shoot for an 8GB RAM minimum
17:23 < sam_S3pi0l> dgurney, jinx!!!
17:23 < dgurney> heh
17:24 < jack_rip_vim> Since Acer have Gateway, they tried to install opensusu on new gateway production.
17:25 < jack_rip_vim> I miss old gateway production
17:25 < sam_S3pi0l> the ol' cow box
17:25 < jack_rip_vim> yes
17:25 < sam_S3pi0l> they were the middle class standard for PCs back in the late 90's and early oughts.
17:26 < sam_S3pi0l> if you had a gateway, you had money.
17:26 < TyrfingMjolnir> Is there a way to proxy the same query to several servers? Not unlike tee
17:26 < TyrfingMjolnir> I would like to amend proxy_pass to be able to the following: https://gist.github.com/TyrfingMjolnir/809a90c9b67a562ba3f884936091b1c9
17:27 < nai> TyrfingMjolnir: be more precise
17:27 < jack_rip_vim> sam_S3pi0l: most of the gateway production has been harden. But, since Acer buy the company, Gateway is gone.
17:27 < hiya> SporkWitch, Radeon Pro WX 7100 with 8GB GDDR5 dedicated memory <-- how's this one?
17:28 < SporkWitch> hiya: replace potato with GPU
17:28 < SporkWitch> TyrfingMjolnir: why?
17:28 < hiya> sam_S3pi0l, dgurney So, if I try 8GB on my Dell 3542, would it help? But what about poor graphics Intel 4400 and poor processor
17:28 < dgurney> hiya, that's the workstation equivalent of an rx 480 iirc
17:29 < dgurney> (the WX card)
17:29 < jack_rip_vim> Acer didn't take care of Gateway.
17:29 < dgurney> hiya: a ram upgrade would definitely help
17:30 < sam_S3pi0l> hiya, yes. Upgrading your RAM will help more than anything. If you can upgrade to 16GB, do it. It will increase the RAM pool that the OS, VMs and graphics can draw from.
17:30 < dgurney> ofc if the CPU & GPU are simply too slow for your current needs, a new laptop is the best option
17:31 < sam_S3pi0l> hiya, additionally, VMs use virtualized cores, so the actual processor is only processing the VM software, not the actual VM, so even a quad core i3 can run at least 2 VMs with a big enough RAM pool.
17:31 < hiya> dgurney, SporkWitch basically you both are making fun of laptop workstations, right?
17:32 < dgurney> I'm not
17:32 < dgurney> they are perfectly good machines, if you need a lot of horses on the go
17:32 < hiya> <dgurney> hiya, that's the workstation equivalent of an rx 480 iirc
17:32 < hiya> What is that?
17:32 < hiya> Is 480 recent?
17:32 < SporkWitch> hiya: i did not at any point make fun of laptop workstations, i made fun of terrible choices like quadros for non-render-farm use and ATI GPUs in general
17:32 < jack_rip_vim> As my suggestion, CPU up to I5, memory up to 16GB
17:32 < TyrfingMjolnir> SporkWitch: To be able to test some dev stuff with actual live production data
17:32 < hiya> SporkWitch, But there is no other options
17:33 < dgurney> hiya, it's not that old, but not the newest thing
17:33 < TyrfingMjolnir> nai: Did you read the sample config I edited?
17:33 < SporkWitch> hiya: also, the nvidia 10-series mobile cards have ±10% performance parity with their desktop versions
17:33 < hiya> Ok
17:34 < TyrfingMjolnir> SporkWitch: Also to be able to double check between staging and deployment that new features does not break old ones.
17:34 < hiya> SporkWitch, dgurney Which Mobile workstation do you recommend for me?  iam coming from Dell 3542 with Intel 4210U i5 processor with weak base clock + 4GB RAM which slows down with HDMI + if you run a VM it freezes altogether even after Samsung EVO 850 SSD 256GB
17:35 < hiya> I want to be able to run a Windows 10 VM + MacOS VM in Linux smoothly
17:35 < hiya> + Multiple monitors
17:35 < hiya> 2-3
17:35 < SporkWitch> hiya: asked and answered
17:36 < jack_rip_vim> how many CPU core on your laptop?
17:36 < hiya> <SporkWitch> hiya: i'm fond of asus, and they even sell machine with linux pre-installed
17:36 < jack_rip_vim> hiya?
17:36 < hiya> jack_rip_vim, right now? Dual-core
17:37 < jack_rip_vim> hiya, upgrade your memory to 8 GB, you can run just one OS VM at one time.
17:37 < jack_rip_vim> hiya, both window 10 and Mac OS will run out your memory
17:38 < sam_S3pi0l> Also, make sure you allocate at least 40GB per VM, especially with Win10.
17:38 < hiya> jack_rip_vim, Ok I will try, I think the maximum amount of RAM i can get is 8GB
17:38 < SporkWitch> absolute bare minimum for windows is 4GB for 64bit
17:38 < SporkWitch> and as always the REAL requirements for windows are double their recommended
17:38 < sam_S3pi0l> hiya, https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAA0S4VF2394
17:38 < hiya> by current Memory uses is 3.2 GB of 3.8 GB
17:39 < jack_rip_vim> hiya, you can try virtualBox under Linux, that will save some memory
17:40 < sam_S3pi0l> hiya, you can look up your specs by searching your manufacturer's model number
17:40 < sam_S3pi0l> jack, does KVM use more memory than virtualbox?
17:40 < SporkWitch> kvm is very efficient
17:40 < jack_rip_vim> sam_S3pi0l: it depends on the system needed
17:41 < SporkWitch> if your hardware and kernel support it, you should be using it
17:41 < TyrfingMjolnir> nai: I'm looking at this piece of code: !gh nginx/nginx/src/mail/ngx_mail_proxy_module.c
17:41 < SporkWitch> TyrfingMjolnir: #nginx
17:43 < TyrfingMjolnir> SporkWitch: 14:08 -!- #nginx Cannot send to channel
17:43 < jack_rip_vim> my 1.6ghz 2GB old computer can run windows XP in VirtualBox.
17:43 < Lantizia> Anyone know of a Spectrum emulator that can happily use an MP3 to play a game from?
17:43 < TyrfingMjolnir> SporkWitch: And I'm not sure if nginx is the right tool for the task; even though it appears similar to what I would like to do.
17:43 < dgurney> well Windows XP isn't very demanding lol
17:44 < jack_rip_vim> lol
17:44 < coderman1> how would i output the filename and first row of every file in a directory? i would like the format of the output to be <filename>,firstrow
17:44 < hiya> jack_rip_vim, Ok thanks :D but i think it is too expensive to get a RAM :(
17:45 < hiya> jack_rip_vim, but i will try to get :D
17:45 < hiya> sam_S3pi0l, I know, but what specific detail do you need?
17:45 < sam_S3pi0l> haha..just priced out a system 76 Serval 15" laptop, `$2500. I have expensive needs....
17:45 < TyrfingMjolnir> jack_rip_vim: Did you try dosbox?
17:45 < hiya> sam_S3pi0l, thanks for the link. But it is 6500U with lower base clock
17:45 < jack_rip_vim> hiya, you can try Mac OS 10.6, It is OK on your computer when you run linux
17:45 < hiya> Ok
17:45 < ananke> coderman1: start with 'head -1 *'
17:46 < jack_rip_vim> TyrfingMjolnir: Not yet
17:46 < jack_rip_vim> TyrfingMjolnir: someone said dosbox can run win98
17:46 < TyrfingMjolnir> jack_rip_vim: dos box is said to be more energy efficient for 32 bit stuff
17:47 < TyrfingMjolnir> docbox should be able to run ibmdos, msdos, win up to 98
17:47 < TyrfingMjolnir> *dosbox
17:47 < jack_rip_vim> TyrfingMjolnir: I will try it
17:49 < hiya> Hows Dell XPS 9560?
17:49 < TyrfingMjolnir> hiya: It's a 15" laptop
17:50 < TyrfingMjolnir> By the looks of it
17:50 < TyrfingMjolnir> !i Dell XPS 9560
17:51 < TyrfingMjolnir> hiya: It's good, yet probably this is better: https://puri.sm/products/
17:53 < SporkWitch> hiya: it's a dell, that's all you need to know to stay away
17:53 < hiya> SporkWitch, Sir, I have used Dell and it worked fine for last 3 years
17:53 < hiya> :D
17:54 < sam_S3pi0l> hiya, if your looking to spend that much already, check system 76 laptops.
17:54 < hiya> I am in India
17:54 < sam_S3pi0l> they ship
17:54 < Lope> guys, after I run `losetup /dev/loop0 foo.img; partprobe /dev/loop0; losetup -D /dev/loop0` there is still /dev/loop0p1 there. I can't remove it with losetup -d or losetup -D. I can remove it with rm, but if I do that, when I run partprobe again after loop mounting again, loop0p1 does not appear even though `fdisk -l /dev/loop0` confirms the partition is there. Right now I've decided to just ignore /dev/loop0p1 being there after `losetup -D
17:54 < Lope> /dev/loop0` but if you know how to actually restore the situation to a fresh, dismounted state, I'd like to know :)
17:54 < hiya> Things like System76 and Purism are myths here, because
17:54 < hiya> Import duty
17:54 < sam_S3pi0l> touche
17:54 < dgurney> yeah, that's easy to forget for us westerners
17:54 < jml2> Lope, you need to unmount /dev/loop0p1 first before losetup -d
17:55 < dgurney> not everyone is lucky enough to be able to affordably ship in products
17:55 < SporkWitch> hiya: good for you; you came here asking for us to do your google searching for you.  you want our input.  don't buy dell, they're shit
17:55 < hiya> SporkWitch, :D
17:55 < hiya> I love SporkWitch
17:55 < jml2> Lope, btw, loop0p1 may be in /dev/mapper
17:55 < hiya> I won't buy Dell, maybe he is right
17:55 < hiya> Purism is 6th generation eitherways
17:55 < sam_S3pi0l> lenovo thinkpads are also great workstations...
17:56 < dgurney> I've heard of some poor dell experiences, so he's not completely wrong at least
17:56 < jml2> Lope, losetup -a  , will show if theres anything currently mapped
17:58 < jack_rip_vim> hiya, try thinkPad, if you want
17:58 < hiya> sam_S3pi0l, jack_rip_vim dgurney so ThinkPad P or just ThinkPad T ?
17:58 < Lope> jml2: I don't mount /dev/loop0p1 I back it up with ntfsclone.
17:58 < hiya> P = workstation
17:59 < jack_rip_vim> hiya, T is a good choice
17:59 < hiya> ok
17:59 < TheWild> hey, is there a chance to create loopback device for a disk image. Okay, I know how to do it, but the problem is that the image is on read-only system (thus read-only loopback device) and one stupid program doesn't accept it just because it's read-only, even when it is not supposed to write anything to it.
18:00 < TheWild> I want to create loopback device that claims it is writable, but aborting any write operations.
18:00 < jml2> Lope, i um wonder if you realize i'm not paid to be here
18:00 < jml2> Lope, i dont see what ntfsclone has to do with anything
18:00 < jml2> LAWL
18:01 < jml2> TheWild, easier
18:01 < jml2> TheWild, e2image -ra /dev/rawpartition foobar.img.raw
18:01 < jml2> TheWild, to mount:  mount foobar.img.raw /mnt/mountpoint
18:01 < TheWild> if it does not involve copying (I don't have enough space, the image is ~300 GB)...
18:01 < hiya> ThinkPad P is Xeonv5 in India, so a generation old vs Dell
18:02 < jml2> e2image by default creates a sparse file
18:02 < dgurney> well I doubt you really need the absolute latest generation
18:02 < jml2> so if you only use 5 gigs on a 300gb raw partition, the actual sparse file is just 5 gigs -- but will still list as 300gb
18:03 < jml2> losetup has "-r"
18:03 < jml2> but I tihnk some mount modules have a problem with this
18:03 < TheWild> jml2: the source is image file.
18:04 < jml2> i'd use mount -o ro,<journal no playback -- i forget the option name>
18:04 < jml2> TheWild, if you do "file -s image" it'll tell you if there's an mbr table, for that you'll need either qemu-nbd or losetup
18:05 < jml2> TheWild, if there's no partition table, and just a fs signature, you can use mount -o loop image /mntpoint ---    mount here by default still uses losetup in the background but you will not have to deal with loop0p1
18:05 < jml2> TheWild, losetup -a would still show /dev/loop0 where the filesystem would reside ...
18:05 < jml2> TheWild, but it will be mounted right away..
18:05 < turkeyhand> what's the resource thing for the background called
18:06 < triceratux> how can manjaro *possibly* be more popular than mint ? it defies all logic. perhaps it means the inbound refugees arent predominantly from windows anymore but from somewhere else. but where ? the BSDs ? macos ? centos ? it just doesnt make sense
18:06 < jml2> TheWild, the -o loop, is even optional .. and mount will treat image.file.raw appropriately
18:06 < TheWild> https://www.serverwatch.com/server-tutorials/using-a-physical-hard-drive-with-a-virtualbox-vm.html - but idiot VBoxManage doesn't accept either image file or loop device when it is read only.
18:06 < TheWild> will be back
18:06 < jml2> TheWild, same idea with .vdi
18:06 < jml2> TheWild, but losetup cant work with .vdi
18:06 < jml2> TheWild, you'll need qemu-nbd to take losetup's place
18:07 < jml2> TheWild, and then you will see /dev/mapper/nbd0p1  instead of loop0p1
18:07 < Lope> jml2: Did I say something that led you to believe I think you're paid support? because I certainly don't think that buddy, I appreciate your help.
18:07 < jml2> TheWild, i dont think qemu-nbd works with snapshots.. so .vdi should be a singular output without any um snapshots referencing to itself...
18:08 < hipp> triceratux> https://www.slant.co/versus/2706/18538/~manjaro-linux_vs_linux-mint
18:08 < Lope> "<jml2> Lope, you need to unmount /dev/loop0p1 first before losetup -d" You assumed that I mounted it, I mentioned ntfsclone, because that's what I'm doing after losetup... I do not mount it at all.
18:09 < jml2> Lope, ntfsclone wouldn't hold onto the partition device..
18:09 < jml2> Lope, that's a behaviour i've seen when mount is on a loop backdevice..
18:09 < Lope> jml2: yeah, I didn't think it would either
18:09 < jml2> Lope, so that's why i said to do any unmounting where it is
18:10 < jml2> Lope, lsof -n |grep loop
18:10 < jml2> Lope, and see what what process is hooking to that FD
18:10 < triceratux> hipp: yep that could be it thanks "Manjaro allows the user to access of the Arch User Repository, a very large user-maintained repository of packages for Arch Linux and derivatives."
18:10 < Lope> well that's not causing p1 to linger
18:10 < Lope> ok
18:10 < jml2> Lope, you should check to see if there's anything with "losetup -a" << is what you're supposed to do
18:11 < hipp> AUR for the win
18:11 < jml2> Lope, if that is empty, and loop0p1 exists, i'd suggest a reboot..
18:11  * jml2 has gtg for a bit
18:12 < momomo> how do you find out an irc users location ? or he/shes ip address ?
18:13 < ayecee> momomo: /whois nick
18:13 < SporkWitch> momofarm: https://lmgtfy.com/?s=d&q=how+do+you+find+out+an+irc+users+location+?+or+he/shes+ip+address+?
18:13 < jml2> Lope, i've seen things like this linger with qemu-nbd -- especially when using it with kpartx , etc...
18:14 < Lope> jml2: it all behaves as expected. `losetup -a` only shows /dev/loop0 after the ntfsclone has pulled data from p1. `losetup -D /dev/loop0` runs, returns 0. Then `losetup -a` shows nothing after.
18:14 < jml2> TheWild, i should note, that you should be setting "options nbd nbds_max=16 max_part=16" , in /etc/modprobe.d/my_nbd.conf  , otherwise qemu-nbd may not scan for any partitions -- if you're wanting to try .vdi files
18:15 < jml2> Lope, i dont care about ntfsclone.
18:15 < jml2> jc
18:15 < Lope> jml2: lsof /dev/loop0 and /dev/loop0p1 don't return anything
18:15 < jml2> well that loop0p1 shouldn't be there...
18:15 < Lope> Yeah, just mentioning it for the fact that it proves p1 is functional.
18:15 < jml2> strange things happen if you try to use losetup later ..(you wouldn't want problems with mappings later)
18:16 < Lope> Because if p1 is not there then ntfsclone won't proceed.
18:16 < Lope> Yeah, that's what I thought.
18:16 < Lope> One way I found to get rid of it was with rm. But after doing that, partprobe could not recreate p1 on loop0 again.
18:16 < jml2> if losetup -a , is "empty" and you see loop0p1, then there is serious consequences..
18:16 < jml2> lol good luck
18:16 < Lope> (only on other loop numbers)
18:16 < jml2> you should reboot ...
18:16 < Lope> I did reboot
18:16 < Lope> So I'm not going to rm again.
18:17 < jml2> loop0p1 is generated in /dev in reboot, well you've got a serious problem buddy
18:17 < jml2> lol
18:17 < Lope> hmmm, I've checked the manpages for losetup and partprobe. I couldn't find anything.
18:18 < Lope> Partprobe does not remove the p1 after losetup -D or -d
18:18 < jml2> no need to use partprobe or kpartx, just losetup alone
18:18 < Lope> jml2: not in my use case.
18:18 < jml2> those can cause ghosted virtual devices, and may hinder losetup later...
18:18 < Lope> jml2: if I just losetup only, I don't get a p1
18:18 < Lope> only after running partprobe /dev/loop0 i get a p1
18:18 < jml2> (losetup -P scans for partitions)
18:19 < Lope> jml2: ah, that looks better!
18:19 < Lope> I'll try that after another reboot. Right now I have to go to the shop before it closes!
18:19 < Lope> Thanks for your help!
18:19 < noodlepie> Linux's Completely Fair Scheduler is interesting, it lets you run make -j 9 on an 8 threader and uses IO wait times for scheduling the processes so at times all 8 build your sh*t.
18:19 < zzero1> I 've set an ip for eth0 using the ip parameter for the initramfs. When the system boots I get a very verbose output of the static ip. How can I disable that ip-config text showing the ip address and the mac of eth0 ?
18:20 < jml2> Lope, "modinfo loop"
18:20 < jml2> Lope, if you need to--> "max_part:Maximum number of partitions per loop device (int)"  -- in case -P is not adding the partitions on the scan
18:20 < Lope> modinfo: ERROR: Module loop not found.
18:21 < jml2> Lope, /etc/modprobe.d/my_loop.conf and add 'options loop max_part=10 max_loop=3"  (or keep max_loop default-- optional)
18:21 < Lope> jml2: thanks, will note that. But in this case It's a MBR table with a single part
18:21 < jml2> i get the same issue with the nbd module on debian -- I think they fixed it later
18:21 < Lope> hopefully losetup -P helps. I'll try when I get back.
18:22 < Lope> gtg, thanks bbiaw
18:22 < jml2> Lope, well i dont even know if loop's default is max_part=0
18:22 < jml2> Lope, it could be.
18:22 < jml2> I don't know your distro.
18:22 < jml2> (nor should I care :p)
18:22 < Lope> ubu 16.04
18:22 < ayecee> sit ubu sit
18:22 < ayecee> good dog
18:23 < dgurney> man I hate quit messages that are ads
18:24 < Armand> dgurney: Especially vapourware... amiright ?
18:24 < ||JD||> why are you even displaying them?
18:25 < dgurney> because I want to see them
18:25 < dgurney> it's just that I dislike a particular kind of message
18:26 < dgurney> Armand, I suppose that makes it even more annoying lol
18:26 < Armand> Rather
18:27 < jml2> zzero1, some babble talk about an ip parameter for initramfs?  that makes null sense
18:27 < jml2> zzero1, tell people what you're trying to fix (and what distro) so that someone can understand the question
18:28 < zzero1> ubuntu
18:28 < zzero1> I have fde
18:28 < zzero1> I use the ip parameter for remote unlock with dropbear ssh
18:28 < jml2> uh fde? what's that?
18:28 < zzero1> cryptsetup luks
18:28 < zzero1> full disk encryption
18:29 < zzero1> well beside the /boot
18:29 < zzero1> s
18:29 < jml2> ok so what does that have to do with an "ip param" ?
18:29 < jml2> "remove unlock" ?
18:29 < zzero1> sorry remote
18:30 < zzero1> typo
18:30 < jml2> remote, yeah.. i typoed :p
18:30 < zzero1> well In order to unlock the encrypted volume remotely I need network and ssh
18:30 < jml2> ah ok
18:31 < jml2> that's possible, so you need busybox-like environment before the actual system is decrypted
18:31 < jml2> and ssh-bear would be running out of the initrd
18:31 < jml2> i dont think i've ever done that
18:31 < zzero1> yeah
18:32 < jml2> well if you have ssh-bear(i dont use it) -- set to use "sshkeys-only" for login, then you need to place your ssh .pub key in your initrd
18:32 < Azrael_-> zzattack: is it already working? want to do just the same soon and looking for guides
18:32 < jml2> (adding it to the authorized_keys file --- if that is what ssh-bear can do)
18:32 < zzero1> it just I would love to not give a clue to someone that is not aware of the dropbear existence
18:32 < jml2> zzero1, to test -- you should also be using "ssh -vvv" to see what is being done
18:32 < zzero1> I have ssh-bear with a public key
18:33 < zzero1> oh sorry
18:33 < Azrael_-> s/zzattack/zzero1
18:33 < jml2> zzero1, ok so then use ssh -vvv, to see if your keypair is working with ssh-bear
18:33 < zzero1> The setup with the remote unlock works
18:33 < zzero1> it's just
18:35 < zzero1> I what I mean is, when the system that has the encrypted volume boots up it shows when you press a key in the plymouth screen, that has a network capability at that boot time
18:35 < zzero1> it shows ip-config
18:35 < zzero1> and my custom ip configuration
18:35 < zzero1> I 'm just wondering how to disable that verbosity, so to speak
18:37 < jml2> zzero1, uh, "quiet" ?
18:37 < jml2> zzero1, to your kernel boot-line ?
18:37 < jml2> zzero1, lol
18:37 < zzero1> hmm
18:37 < zzero1> could be
18:37 < zzero1> just  a sec
18:38 < zzero1> https://imgur.com/a/C4FcSss
18:39 < zzero1> I 'm just wondering if there is an option to just quiet just this message
18:39 < jml2> zzero1, did you try 'quiet' ?
18:39 < zzero1> and not the whole boot splash
18:39 < jml2> zzero1, if it not documented then likely not
18:42 < jml2> zzero1, this project is still constantly maintained, perhaps you should request this as an option feature -- https://matt.ucc.asn.au/dropbear/dropbear.html
18:42 < jml2> zzero1, developers do respond, and i've had features added to projects when I request them :pp
18:42 < zzero1> I was wondering maybe someone with more experience than more would have a better idea
18:44 < zzero1> well I think you can setup the ipconfig w/out having even installed the ssh server, so it wouldn't have to do with the dropbear project
18:45 < jml2> zzero1, i'm sure you can
18:45 < jml2> zzero1, it would be dumb to think that only an embedded ssh server can set the ip..
18:45 < jml2> zzero1, there's definitely other ways
18:45 < Azrael_-> zzero1: why would you want to hide this line?
18:46 < zzero1> no I mean the networking part should be something separate of the ssh server
18:46 < TheWild> jml2: thanks for hints but need for additional software? Dealing with config files? Nnaaahh...
18:46 < jml2> zzero1, yeah there's ways...
18:46 < jml2> zzero1, and even if there's not an official way, you can always embedded ip things, and create a hook to set the ip
18:47 < jml2> zzero1, this means adding the binary ip and its needed libs inside initrd
18:47 < jml2> zzero1, its actually pretty easy, easier than setting up ssh..
18:47 < jml2> zzero1, lol
18:48 < zzero1> Azrael_-: I like someone who looks at the screen at that boot time, to think, oh there is a network available, so someone has probably set this system up for remote unlock of that encrypted volume
18:48 < TheWild> I solved it anyway. "sudo losetup -f /media/thewild/521e93cb-3958-48cc-8ee6-58dde0813074/samsung" (mounts the thing read only because file system is read only); sudo hdparm -r 0 /dev/loop1
18:48 < jml2> zzero1, this is out of date, but may still be relevant, it's easiest to use an initramfs update approach -- https://www.eugenemdavis.com/set-static-ip-initramfs.html
18:49 < jml2> zzero1, and i think i've seen this before --> https://www.redhat.com/archives/kickstart-list/2014-December/msg00012.html (see ip=)
18:50 < jml2> zzero1, iirc i think it is set in grub... i can look that up
18:50 < jml2> zzero1, kernel param line
18:51 < zzero1> yeah it's that ip parameter who causes the message to show up at boot time, I just want to silence that message and reduce the verbosity level in a sense
18:51 < jml2> zzero1," ip=             [IP_PNP]
18:51 < jml2>                         See Documentation/filesystems/nfs/nfsroot.txt."
18:51 < jml2> zzero1, problem is i dont know if that is very tied with nfs
18:52 < jml2> but even if that doesn't do it, you can always create your own manual hook with an ip command...
18:52 < jml2> zzero1, ->https://serverfault.com/questions/445296/is-there-a-linux-kernel-boot-parameter-to-configure-an-ipv6-address
18:59 < jml2> "<TheWild> https://www.serverwatch.com/server-tutorials/using-a-physical-hard-drive-with-a-virtualbox-vm.html - but idiot VBoxManage doesn't accept either image file or loop device when it is read only."
19:00 < jml2> TheWild, when you said "image file" and you mention vboxmanage, i could assume you could imply .vdi files..
19:00 < jml2> TheWild, and qemu-nbd does the same job as losetup --- so this prevents wasted time with vboxmanage-convert things..
19:00 < TheWild> I don't have enough storage space for .vdi
19:01 < jml2> .vdi are by default sparse files by vbox..
19:01 < jml2> and qemu-nbd would be able to map them....
19:02 < jml2> (qemu-nbd has a readonly option)
19:03 < jml2> i usually use the default mount/losetup for raw image files.. but qemu-nbd also supports raw files..
19:03 < jml2> but its mapping devices are then instead nbd* instead of loop*
19:03 < jml2> i think i got that right...
19:04  * jml2 https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/QEMU/Images
19:10 < jollyjester> hello
19:12 < jollyjester> hello!
19:12 < jml2> omg im missing inkscape
19:12 < jollyjester> jml2, can you do me a favor?
19:12 < jml2> yeah!! its installing woohoo!
19:13 < jollyjester> ...
19:14 < jollyjester> can someone just get in my mumble server i want someone to just get in so i can see if someone else can connect to it or not
19:15 < ayecee> it's a trap!
19:15 < jml2> jollyjester, nice catch
19:15 < jollyjester> sorry i don't watch METEOR WARS
19:16 < jollyjester> how can i tell if someone else can connect to my server
19:16 < jml2> jollyjester, by asking them
19:16 < jollyjester> well connect to mine
19:16 < jollyjester> and i'll ask you
19:16 < jml2> jollyjester, and funny you are smart enough to troll about it
19:16 < zzero1> is there somewhere in the initramfs directories somewhere a script that has a line like this /bin/ipconfig $IP
19:16 < jml2> jollyjester, that only makes you look like a total idiot
19:17 < jollyjester> i just want to see if it works or not
19:17 < zzero1> does anybody knows where it is ?
19:17 < jml2> jollyjester, the answer is no it doesn
19:17 < jollyjester> no
19:17 < jollyjester> u
19:18 < DLange> zzero1: grep -r ipconfig /usr/share/initramfs-tools/
19:18 < rendolf> no u @ everyone
19:19 < jml2> triceratux, i think i might try manjaro, i'd like to try deepin  on it after cnzzz became a dirty cricket
19:20 < jml2> triceratux, deepin is nice and a good hope for saving the linux desktop... xfce doesnt seem to have any innovations behind it
19:20 < hiya> Okay, so I found something about DVMT with Intel HD graphics on Windows, Does it work the same way on Linux?
19:20 < jml2> triceratux, i know xfce is good, but i mean it's things like application grids is what people want on a desktop
19:22 < triceratux> jml2: hope that works. im happy with my swagarch xfce. thunar supporting gvfs-mtp is enough innovation for me
19:24 < zzero1> DLange: thanks I just want to silence the IP-Config: Complete: message, like this one https://superuser.com/a/503086 do something like this 2>&1
19:27 < zzero1> DLange: I was looking for that line in /etc thanks
19:28 < DLange> np. Change the line and regenerate the initrd.
19:29 < zzero1> I have to suppose I was to uninstall the initramfs package I would have to rehack it ?
19:29 < DLange> usually not, may depend on your distro though
19:29 < DLange> check your distro's doc on how to regenerate the initrd
19:30 < zzero1> that should be a walk in the park
19:30 < zzero1> update-initramfs -u -k all
19:31 < DLange> the think is just that your change may be lost once the distro overwrites the changed file on update
19:31 < DLange> but this again in distro dependant (config / protected files vs. unmanaged files)
20:00 < mekeor> hello. i'm about to install linux on a laptop. should i choose IDE-mode or AHCI-mode as SATA-mode in the BIOS?
20:01 < mekeor> which one is favorable or recommended for linux?
20:02 < MrElendig> *always* ahci
20:02 < notmike> Slackware
20:02 < MrElendig> unless dualbooting with an existing broken windows install
20:02 < MrElendig> which is installed in fakeraid mode
20:02 < mekeor> MrElendig: thank you!
20:10 < onu> hey, is it safe to mount "/var/tmp" on another partition during boot (via fstab) or is there some kind of pre-mount-write to that directory that would then be lost? (debian jessie)
20:10 < SporkWitch> don't think there's any issue
20:11 < SporkWitch> AFAIK anything using tmp should be prepared for its contents to go missing and handle it gracefully; kind of the nature of /tmp
20:14 < onu> I think I saw something regarding debian and such but I can not find it anymore. Maybe I just remember it wrong. Thank you for your input though, I'll go ahead with my plan then.
20:16 < revel> Might as well ask #debian
20:26 < Li> how to find the entry name of wireless network usb under /dev
20:27 < SporkWitch> lsusb?
20:27 < Li> it doesn't show the /dev/ name
20:27 < catphish> there wouldn't be one, network devices don't have them
20:27 < snugger> What would happen if iana-etc broke on your system?
20:28 < Li> catphish: do you know why not? I understood every is a file in linux!
20:28 < Li> are there other places for it?
20:28 < catphish> li: you understand wrong
20:29 < Li> catphish: correct me then
20:29 < SporkWitch> yes, everything is a file in linux/unix, that doesn't mean you're looking in the right place though
20:29 < catphish> as i said, network devices don't have a filesystem representation
20:30 < SporkWitch> catphish: should be a file somewhere that stuff writes to to interact with it; not sure where that'd be for a NIC, though
20:30 < catphish> and no, not everything is represented by a file
20:31 < mawk> what about /sys/class/net/$IFACE/
20:32 < djph> catphish: ^
20:32 < mawk> something better would be "everything is a file descriptor"
20:32 < catphish> there will be files in /sys/bus/usb/devices/ that relate to a usb network device, and files in /sys/class/net/ that relate to network interface config
20:32 < mawk> but it's not entirely true for network devices either
20:32 < mawk> but it's debattable
20:32 < mawk> you can use the netdevice ioctls on litterally any socket
20:32 < catphish> but there is no single file through which network interfaces transfer their data as there is for block and character devices
20:33 < mawk> so we could say that any socket is the fd entry point to the network devices
20:33 < catphish> there are APIs for nrtworking, and network configuration, but they're not file-per-nic
20:34 < SporkWitch> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/23199/why-are-network-interfaces-not-in-dev-like-other-devices#23796
20:35 < catphish> by the way, i've never seen Li show up in a channel and not end up banned
20:35 < SporkWitch> mawk: that would be more accurate, yes (re: FD)
20:35 < SporkWitch> catphish: they only ban people for calling out BS in here, these days
20:35 < SporkWitch> catphish: can't remember the last time the actual problem was punished
20:35 < jml2> mekeor, that's correct, you should always choose ahci -- however there is no damage if you choose ide otherwise -- the only thing then is you might just need to re-issue a grub-update and that's about it
20:35 < bls> catphish: yes, he's a known troll
20:35 < catphish> i was punished in here for using abreviations recently, that's pretty serious
20:36 < SporkWitch> catphish: y u do dat?
20:36 < catphish> SporkWitch: careful
20:36 < jml2> mekeor, (if you already installed with the 'ide' setting, you can change it to ahci, and no need to worry about any data-loss if you do this)
20:36 < DLange> we can ban you for complaining, too, if you want to
20:36 < jml2> DLange, who? LOL
20:36  * jml2 ducks XD
20:37 < DLange> the command can take up to four nicks :)
20:37 < jml2> DLange, ohhh I wouldn't want to mess around with you DLange!! you're a very powerful man!
20:37 < neoncortex> DLange: we are a legion ..
20:37 < hexnewbie> Li: If you wanted literally everything to be a file, you shouldn't have picked a Unix, and gone for Plan 9. *nix network has it backwards, though - network interfaces don't appear in the filesystem (sysfs pseudo informational excepted), but network connections are open files, and you can make connections to files  in the filesystem (namely, Unix sockets)
20:37  * DLange has bad text-to-speech as well
20:38 < jml2> yeah seems like catphish likes to get under people's skin at time even if he means to be jokingly sarcastic
20:38 < neoncortex> the problem with plan9 is that no one develops for it, so no applications
20:38 < catphish> jml2: really? :(
20:39 < catphish> i really try to be reasonable
20:39 < SporkWitch> it's okay, i love you, catphish
20:39 < DLange> try harder
20:39 < catphish> i'm only upset that i once for banned from this channel on a silly technicality
20:39  * SporkWitch scritches catphish behind the ears/gills
20:39 < mawk> it's quite ironic for you to say that jml2
20:40 < catphish> i'm mostly quite a productive member of society :)
20:40 < jml2> catphish, yeah but you tend to repeat on them as though your punishment has no consequences.. and i dont' think that's a good thing..
20:40 < jml2> catphish, so that's i think pretty annoying imho..
20:40 < rascul> get out of my society
20:40 < catphish> it does have no consequences
20:41 < toothe> There, fixed the bug in 'uname' that keeps saying GNU/Linux.
20:41 < jml2> yeah like i said, that's like sarcasm right in the face of the op who quieted you earlier..
20:41 < toothe> I don't get why they haven't fixed that yet.
20:41 < jml2> nways..
20:41 < SporkWitch> O.o
20:42 < catphish> jml2: you misunderstand, i'm not being sarcastic, i'm genuinely annoyed by it
20:42 < catphish> i am angry with the op who banned me on that occasion
20:42 < catphish> it was unreasonable
20:42 < DLange> and discussing that in channel will get you banned again
20:43 < catphish> but never mind, i will try to stop complaining about it
20:43 < SporkWitch> catphish: while i'm inclined to side with you, continuing to talk about it is a good way to get a legitimate +q or +b
20:43 < jml2> that's why there is ##linux-ops
20:43 < DLange> come to ##linux-ops once sauvin is around if you want to talk to him (or anybody else)
20:43 < catphish> as its not productive :)
20:43 < jml2> so you should be complaning over there (its pretty obvious in /topic)
20:43 < catphish> DLange: thanks, and sorry, i'll stop whining about it
20:43 < DLange> thanks
20:46 < catphish> mawk: i'm not sure i can really even get on board with "everything is a file descriptor", though i guess most physical devices are accessed (if indirectly as is the case with network sockets) through some kind of fd
20:46 < mawk> yeah
20:47 < mawk> many interactions between userspace and kernel is through a fd
20:47 < mawk> but not always indeed
20:47 < catphish> i'm trying to think of an example of something that isn't, and failing
20:47 < SporkWitch> catphish: from the link i found, some unixes do have a file-like interface for network usage, though not the specific NICs
20:47 < catphish> but there are plenty of syscalls that aren't file related
20:47 < mawk> yeah I was thinking about that
20:48 < funksh0n> Hi all.
20:50 < hexnewbie> Linux takes ‘everything is a file’ more to the heart, than say, BSD. Think, /proc, /proc/sys to access sysctl, /sys, cgroups, etc... FreeBSD was considering removing /proc even, because IIRC they have syscalls for that kind of thing
20:50 < mawk> for litteral files it's less true than file descriptors
20:50 < mawk> you can do many files without a filesystem
20:50 < catphish> there certainly are a lot of files, which is a really nice way to lay things out
20:50 < mawk> even unix sockets
20:51 < mawk> many things* lol
20:51 < catphish> but the concept falls down for networking
20:51 < bls> it'd really only work for PtP networking, otherwise you'd have to do your multiplexing, interrupt handling, etc in userspace
20:51 < mawk> but one can argue that netdevice are by the kernel for the kernel
20:52 < mawk> and what the userspace gets is effectively file descriptors, through sockets
20:52 < mawk> there is a subsystem to do that bls
20:53 < mawk> IIO maybe ? I can't remember
20:53 < mawk> UIO rather
20:53 < bls> do expose a NIC as a file in the filesystem and allow the IP stack to live in userland?
20:53 < hexnewbie> Opening files inside a pseudo-filesystem could do a lot of networking syscalls do, though. Unless I'm mistaken, I think there was even a project to port Plan 9's APIs for that to Linux.
20:54 < bls> hexnewbie: pretty sure they did that...in bash
20:54 < mawk> it exposes PCI devices and allows you to handle interrupts, bls
20:54 < mawk> then you've got packet sockets to do your userspace networking stack
20:54 < hexnewbie> bls: And yeah, Bash fakes that internally too
20:59 < Lope> jml2: I R back
21:00 < Lope> rebooting to clear the /dev/loop0p1 crud. Then will try your idea of losetup -P instead of partprobe
21:00 < mawk> same thing
21:03 < Sitri> Lope: losetup -D
21:03 < Lope> any ideas? After I run `losetup /dev/loop0 foo.img` I don't get the /dev/loop0p1 that `fdisk -l /dev/loop0` shows. So I run `partprobe /dev/loop0` then I get /dev/loop0p1. I don't mount anything I just back it up with ntfsclone. Then I delete the loop with `losetup -D /dev/loop0` but /dev/loop0p1 remains.
21:04 < Lope> losetup -a shows what you'd expect before, during and after.
21:04 < Lope> /dev/loop0p1 never shows up on `losetup -a` and is not removable with losetup in the above scenario.
21:05 < jml2> Lope, you can use kpartx to clear the loop0p1, --- next time you run losetup use -PD
21:06 < G3nka1> Hello this  ls -R | grep ":$" | sed -e 's/:$//' -e 's/[^-][^\/]*\//--/g' -e 's/^/   /' -e 's/-/|/' shows all the sub directories as a tree, how can I also show the files and not dirs?
21:06 < jml2> Lope, if it still fails, then likely you need to use max_parts for /etc/modprobe.d/my_loopsopts.conf
21:06 < SporkWitch> G3nka1: https://lmgtfy.com/?s=d&q=shows+all+the+sub+directories+as+a+tree,+how+can+I+also+show+the+files+and+not+dirs
21:07 < jml2> Lope, modinfo loop has it rather max_parts (and not max_part)
21:07 < mawk> Lope: losetup -f stuff -P
21:07 < mawk> all in once
21:07 < jml2> Lope, reverse --- it is "max_part
21:07 < jml2> Lope, or whatever you use to map -- if its -Pf then use -f in conjunction with -P
21:07 < sauvin> I'm not "around", but I am more or less "asquare"...
21:08 < jml2> Lope, easy to test-> fdisk file.raw make a table..
21:08 < Lope> jml2: wow, nice tips, okay will try, thanks.
21:08 < G3nka1> thanks SporkWitch but how can I extend my existing command was the question
21:08 < jml2> Lope, note: -P not needed for unmapping
21:08 < jml2> Lope, just for the first time running losetup
21:09 < SporkWitch> G3nka1: i doubt your existing command is a good solution to achieve your goal
21:09 < jml2> Lope, (or everytime you want to partscan and map any other raw image file)
21:09 < SporkWitch> G3nka1: something so basic should be much simpler to achieve than with that huge sed command
21:10 < Dagmar> Sane people would just use the find command\
21:10 < Dagmar> Parsing the output of ls is widely held as a sign of mental instability.
21:10 < SporkWitch> for example :) ^
21:11 < Lope> jml2: it works!!!
21:11 < Lope> Thanks bud
21:11 < jml2> Lope, before even using losetup, you can also do -> fdisk -l <image>  , that will give you an idea if there are partition in it
21:11 < jml2> np
21:11 < Lope> jml2: thanks, yeah, I know that trick
21:12 < Lope> So there's no way to cleanup the mess left behind by partprobe?
21:12 < Lope> (just out of curiosity)
21:12 < jml2> Lope, mentioned probably kpartx can clean it out
21:12 < Dagmar> Run it again.
21:12 < jml2> Lope, I wouldn't trust using rm on devices..
21:12 < Lope> oh, yeah, sorry, forgot that. How would you run kpartx to clean up loop0p1?
21:13 < jml2> Lope, may cause problems/conflicts if the same name is overwritten
21:13 < Dagmar> Basically, if the device/slice no longer exists, it'll remove them
21:13 < jml2> Lope, kpartx -d /dev/loop
21:13 < Lope> beast, pity I rebooted the machine again haha. I had partprobe in a part of the script I forgot about.
21:13 < jml2> Lope, otherwise the second try should then be -> kpartx -d /path/to_raw_image
21:14 < jml2> Lope, did you have to use mod options to fix it?
21:14 < jml2> Lope, /etc/modprobe.d/my_loopoptions.conf ?
21:15 < Lope> jml2: the fix was super simple. `losetup -P /dev/loop0 foo.img` made loop0p1 then the normal `losetup -D /dev/loop0` cleaned both out.
21:15 < jml2> Lope, otherwise you're using the default max_part then... i think it's probably 10
21:15 < Lope> I didn't have to touch any options config files etc.
21:15 < Lope> is that maximum partitions per device?
21:15 < Lope> I never go beyond 4 on MBR
21:16 < jml2> Lope, it can be increased .. but its unusual a need to increase it
21:16 < Lope> If I need anything special I use LVM.
21:16 < jml2> Lope, btw you dont need a partition table if you're using just a single partition
21:16 < jml2> Lope, there is no problem using a filesystem directly on the image
21:17 < jml2> Lope, so the header of the fs would start at /dev/loop0  --- mount <image> /mymnt/
21:17 < jml2> Lope, and losetup is automatically used in the background for that..
21:17 < Lope> so in future for general use should I avoid partprobe? i see the kpartx man page offers -u (update)
21:17 < jml2> Lope, -- and you can use a 1 line entry for the image in fstab
21:17 < Lope> so I could use kpartx -u and later -d
21:17 < jml2> Lope, it makes it easier than needing a startup script when fstab can do it for you..
21:17 < jml2> XD
21:17 < Lope> (not in this scenatio of course, because losetup -P can do the job)
21:17 < jml2> Lope, (for images with just a filesystem on them)
21:19 < jml2> , "/path/raw.disk  /mntpath/  ext2  defaults,loop,rw  0  2"  (eg)
21:19 < Lope> thanks jml2 yeah, I'm aware of putting filesystems directly on block devices. In this case the raw disk image is for a windows VM, so it likes it's NTFS inside a partition afaik.
21:20 < Lope> I found one thing that windows does better than linux (was surprised there was one thing). I expanded the disk image, booted the VM, it was using the virtual disk, I went into disk management, told it to expand the partition to fill the disk, and it did it, without a reboot, dismounting, stopping programs etc. You can't do that on linux afaik.
21:20 < jml2> Lope, might as well use a smb/cifs connection, you don't want to be mount-writing to it while a vm is using it
21:20 < Lope> But I get the heeby jeebies every time I touch windows.
21:20 < Lope> I shut the VM down to expand the disk image with qemu-img
21:21 < jml2> Lope, its a flat file, you can even cat /dev/zero to it
21:21 < Lope> Although I could have probably done it while it was running (though I wouldn't risk it)
21:21 < jml2> Lope, dd can append a file..
21:21 < triceratux> windows is an unparalleled surveillance tool. if only it came with a decent operating system
21:21 < Lope> how do you use cat with /dev/zero?
21:21 < Lope> Wouldn't you just use dd?
21:21 < jml2> Lope, yeah you can use dd,
21:22 < jml2> Lope, has a conv append option
21:22 < Lope> I tried some method offered on superuser, but DD crashed when I tried to make it do a seek of a few GB, said something about size too big.
21:22 < jml2> Lope, good to use the sparse option with it
21:22 < Lope> Then I just used qemu-img, which is safer and drastically simpler
21:23 < jml2> Lope, you said you cant do that on linux -- that's funny you can..
21:23 < Lope> triceratux: yep
21:23 < jml2> Lope, many ways.. including vboxmanage too iirc
21:23 < jml2> Lope, within the vbox application there is an option to expand vdi things..
21:23 < jml2> Lope, i did this last week actually..
21:23 < jml2> Lope, :p
21:23 < Lope> yeah in this case, it's a qemu-kvm thing, no vbox
21:23 < Lope> it's on a headless machine
21:24 < Lope> expand all the things
21:24 < jml2> Lope, but you said you cant do this on linux, you're wrong :p
21:24 < jml2> ha!
21:24 < Lope> expand a filesystem that's in use?
21:25 < Dagmar> That can be done with most filesystems under Linux
21:25 < jml2> Lope, i tihnk btrfs is more suitable for usage during fs-management
21:25 < Dagmar> It's dead easy with LVM and ext3/4
21:25 < jml2> yeah there's more advanced support going beyond ext3/4
21:25 < Lope> Dagmar: yeah, I do it all the time with LVM, but not while in use.
21:25 < jml2> including networking cluster filesystems..
21:25 < Dagmar> Assuming you have extents free, you can expand the logical volume and the filesystem with one command.
21:25 < jml2> ^ if you want the bigger picture :p
21:26 < Lope> Yes actually I would love to use XFS more often. but XFS can't shrink, and for that reason I won't use XFS unless it's for a DB or something.
21:26 < Lope> I love that ext4 can shrink.
21:26 < Dagmar> Lope: For about three months I wouldn't do it online, and then I got over worrying so much.  I've done it literally dozens of times since then
21:27 < Lope> Dagmar: GTFO! :P share this mystical 1 command?
21:27 < Lope> Dagmar: when I expand a LVM ext4 it's 3 commands.
21:27 < Dagmar> You just add -r to the lvresize command.
21:27  * DLange takes away Dagmar does it online
21:27 < jml2> Lope, hopefully you're not mounting this at the same time the vm is using it..
21:27 < Lope> lvextend...; e2fsck...; resize2fs...
21:28 < jml2> Lope, mount read-only (without any journal playback)
21:28 < jml2> Lope, you'd need to do remounting ro+noplayback when the vm does additional writes..
21:28 < Lope> Dagmar: command example or I call bs :p
21:28 < jml2> Lope, because any sane OS relies on the cache of the superblock..
21:28 < DLange> pics or it didn't happen
21:28 < DLange> Lope ^
21:29 < jml2> ^ dont forget the "filesystem option" along with lvresize
21:29 < Dagmar> lvresize /dev/mapper/blah-blah -l+100% -r
21:29 < jml2> otherwise you damage the filesystem
21:29 < jml2> there's an option there you "should" use or suffer data loss
21:29 < Dagmar> No, not resizing won't damage the filesystem
21:29 < Lope> jml2: insightful
21:29 < jml2> Dagmar, there's an option... spoke with someone about this 2 weeks ago
21:29 < Dagmar> It'll just leave you with space in the LV that's being wasted
21:29 < jml2> Dagmar, then you're doing it wrong :)
21:30 < Dagmar> No, I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right
21:30 < Dagmar> I'm used to using giant SAN clusters
21:30 < jml2> "-r, --resizefs
21:30 < jml2> Resize underlying filesystem together with the logical volume using fsadm(8)."
21:30 < jml2> https://linux.die.net/man/8/lvresize
21:30 < Lope> Dagmar is teaching dodgy commands! Get him!
21:30 < jml2> someone who did it without -r loss data...
21:30 < jml2> XD
21:30 < Dagmar> They failed, hard, then
21:30 < Lope> Ok I'll leave you two to argue it out and I'll come back in 5 mins for the solution ;)
21:30 < jml2> Dagmar, its your cluster :)
21:30 < jml2> lol
21:31 < jml2> Lope, look in the irc log of this channel...  :)
21:31 < Dagmar> ...or they were deeply confused and *shrank* an LV while the filesystem inside it took up all the space and was mounted
21:31 < jml2> Lope, this discussion was held not long ago.. they did suffer data loss for not using -r ...
21:31 < Dagmar> Shrinking an online filesystem is a bit dodgy, if it's even possible
21:31 < Lope> can you shrink a filesystem that's in use? (brain explodes)
21:31 < jml2> Dagmar, perhaps your distro implies -r ... but that's not guaranteed for Lope.
21:31 < Lope> I think it might actually be doable with LVM
21:31 < Dagmar> SHrinking the container a filesystem is in without being very sure you won't be circumcising the filesystem is insane
21:31 < Lope> I mean with ext4
21:32 < Dagmar> jml2: What's this "implies".  I gave him an example with -r on it
21:32 < jml2> hmm sure
21:32 < jml2> lol
21:32 < jml2> yep above :)
21:32 < Dagmar> I have literally done this _dozens_ of times now
21:32 < jml2> ok i see "<Dagmar> lvresize /dev/mapper/blah-blah -l+100% -r"
21:32 < Lope> Dagmar: well to shrink an lvm you first shrink the FS to the new size minus say 1GB, then you resize the LV, then you resize the filesystem to fill the LV.
21:32 < jml2> that's good you mentioned it
21:33 < jml2> two of us saying it.. as a strong reminder..
21:33 < hiya> https://www.asus.com/in/Laptops/ROG-Strix-GL702ZC/specifications/
21:33 < Dagmar> Lope: You might.  I'm a bit more precise than that
21:33 < jml2> it's dumb lvresize should be doing it by default..
21:33 < hiya> hows this for my uses?
21:33 < hiya> Can this run GNU/Linux just fine?
21:33 < Lope> jml2: why -l+100%, you're doubling the size? seems weird to use %...
21:33 < jml2> I missed that command statement...
21:33 < Dagmar> Lope: It can be readily done without having to shoot blind and then grow the fs larger
21:33 < Lope> Dagmar: precise how?
21:33 < Lope> Dagmar: oh, so you do it in 2 moves?
21:34 < Dagmar> Lope: Using +100% just makes it use all the free extents available.  It was just an example usage
21:34 < Lope> Yeah, it's possible, but you better be sure you get it right or u fuck up the filesystem
21:34 < jml2> Dagmar, is it safe to resize ext4 online?
21:34 < Dagmar> Lope: I am somewhat notorious for never breaking things.  I double-check everything.  I write dry-run scripts and test _those_.
21:34 < Dagmar> jml4: Grow yes.  Shrink, not so much.
21:35 < Lope> one thing that I find annoying as shit is the need to run `tune2fs -m 0 /dev/foo` command to allow non-root to use all the free space.
21:35 < jml2> Lope, you can specify the reserve to 0 on mke* things..
21:35 < Dagmar> Lope: Should be a standard thing for you to run for customer allocations
21:35 < Lope> I only discovered it recently. I was scratching my head like WTF is my space?
21:35 < jml2> Lope, the format command has the option to set it to 0
21:35 < Dagmar> For the OS stuff, leave the reserved values be.  They're pretty sane until you're talking about multi-terabyte filesystems
21:35 < jml2> Lope, and same option -m 0   with mke*
21:36 < Dagmar> Allocating a slice for a customer's exclusive use, there's no sense in reserving some of it for root
21:36 < Lope> Dagmar: yeah, but writing dry run shit takes time. Hacking is faster.
21:36 < Lope> ain't nobody got time for that shit.
21:36 < Dagmar> Lope: ALl that "saved" time goes out the window the moment you have to declare downtime to deploy a breakfix or restore a backup
21:36 < Lope> safety off mofo
21:37 < Lope> what backup?
21:37 < Lope> :D
21:37 < Dagmar> I aim for 100% uptime and I generally get it
21:37 < Dagmar> This "five nines" stuff is for people who aren't really trying hard
21:37 < SporkWitch> never test on production; need to get that through some of my discord admins, the number of times i've had to fix permissions they broke
21:37 < Lope> jml2: what's mke? i use mkfs?
21:37 < Dagmar> SporkWitch: Sounds like it's time to snatch some rights away
21:37 < jml2> Lope, mk*e2/3/4 things..
21:38 < jml2> Lope, you can use -m 0 ..
21:38 < Dagmar> SporkWitch: Make those punks submit their changes as a shell script that they ran successfuly on the dev/test boxes
21:38 < SporkWitch> Dagmar: i'm almost there on the one, but at least some of the stuff he keeps messing with is going away anyway once i get the forums up and running
21:38 < Dagmar> LIKE GOD INTENDED
21:38 < Lope> jml2: I will, from now on, thanks!
21:38 < jml2> yw!
21:39 < jml2> I prefer hardware raid so i dont need to worry about data management tasks as much haha :p
21:39 < Dagmar> I prefer SAN because then the hardware RAID becomes someone else's problem.  ;)
21:39 < SporkWitch> i definitely lean towards hardware raid as well, if only for recovery reasons: if the thing managing the softraid fails in some way you're SOL
21:41 < MrElendig> SporkWitch: if the hardware raid card dies you might be screwed if you can't find a identical one, possibly with the exact same firmware version....
21:41 < Lope> jml2: I think hardware raid sucks for raid 1
21:41 < Lope> jml2: if your controller card dies, you're down until you get the exact same model.
21:42 < MrElendig> SporkWitch: mdadm is generally fairly easy to recover
21:42 < Lope> With software raid you avoid hardware lockin.
21:42 < Dagmar> Well, or you find a suitable replacement and start the giant restore
21:42 < SporkWitch> MrElendig: granted, but you have options; if the softraid dies you're almost guaranteed to be toast, in my experience
21:42 < MrElendig> also you can more easily move it to different hardware
21:42 < MrElendig> SporkWitch: define dies
21:43 < Lope> MrElendig: heart attack
21:43 < Lope> heartbleed attack
21:43 < SporkWitch> MrElendig: corruption, drive failure, someone's stupid (the latter can be an issue with hardware too, but there are more ways stupid can burn you with software)
21:43 < Lope> And then a meltdown
21:43 < MrElendig> SporkWitch: I've not had any issues with rebuilding a raid1 after a disk failure
21:43 < MrElendig> that's sort of the whole point of it after all
21:43 < Lope> I run raid 1 that I don't monitor.
21:44 < MrElendig> as for fs level corruption, raid will not save you from that
21:44 < Lope> (software raid) I should probably start monitoring it.
21:44 < SporkWitch> MrElendig: i mean the disk the softraid is running from; it has to be outside the raid, or it wouldn't be able to load it, no?  Or does it do some kind of bootstrapping?
21:44 < Lope> RAID your raids
21:44 < MrElendig> SporkWitch: running from? what?
21:45 < MrElendig> you mean you have the os outside of the raid, and just store some media or whatever on the raid?
21:45 < MrElendig> if the os dies, recovering the raid is generally trivial
21:46 < SporkWitch> MrElendig: one of us has a fundamental misunderstanding here, because i can't think of a more simple way of putting it.  software raid is, by definition, a program that handles it... presumably it needs to be running on something that is NOT in the raid volumes, since it's needed to know HOW to mount the volumes
21:46 < SporkWitch> MrElendig: i can see more potential things to go wrong with that, than with hardware raid.
21:47 < MrElendig> reinstall os;  mdadm --assemble --scan; mount stuff; job done
21:47 < MrElendig> SporkWitch: you ran run the OS controlling the raid on the raid itself
21:47 < MrElendig> if it is raid1 anyway
21:47 < jml2> many raids also support "esata" ... :)
21:47 < neoncortex> someone here have implemented drag and drop in a Gtk interface? I'm trying to figure it out, TreeView drag and drop
21:48 < MrElendig> grub can boot a kernel that is stored on raid5 too
21:48 < SporkWitch> if all you're doing is raid 1, then sure; it's just basic mirroring, nothing fancy needed and of course you could set it up fresh with no ill effect.  Anything else though...
21:48 < MrElendig> eh, as long as you can boot the kernel it is no problem
21:49 < MrElendig> grub can load the kernel from multiple different raid levels
21:50 < MrElendig> and you could always store the kernel/initrd outside the raid and everything else inside it too
21:50 < arooni> dum q; anyway to get linux/bash to output text from two separate programs, one after another?  in this case i'm looking to run watch and have it run ever second, and then run a different command that outputs every 60 seconds sort of a monitoring thing.  is using something like tmux the only way to do this?
21:51 < Lope> my nerdy opinions are better than your nerdy opinions
21:52 < anddam> MrElendig: a couple days ago you helped me figuring out why the bitrate of my Intel Wireless 3160 was so low, about 54Mbps despite the hardware being ac capable. You suggested it was a combo of difficult chipset and driver (on 4.13.0)
21:53 < SporkWitch> MrElendig: fair enough; that just leaves performance, then
21:53 < anddam> MrElendig: interesting enough I was at another place with same computer, with a different home modem/router but with same kind of ADSL2 (100Mbit) and iw showed the link connected at 160 MBps
21:54 < Lope> anddam: I don't know if this is relevant for you, but I've got at least 2 completely different realtek chipsets (one has a single antenna, the other has 2) where, if the hardware encryption is enabled, it's dog slow, and runs at < 1Mbps. But if you run a special driver option it uses software encryption and runs very fast.
21:54 < Lope> anddam: so it's worth checking if the wifi driver you're using has the option to disable hw enc
21:55 < MrElendig> anddam: I did mention that the signal was sort of crap too
21:55 < anddam> Lope: ok, I wouldn't know exactly where to check such a thing. the driver is iwlwifi
21:56 < MrElendig> anddam: but there is still things like channel width etc
21:56 < Lope> anddam: this is not really relevant, but a goldmine: https://www.aboutcher.co.uk/2012/07/linux-wifi-deauthenticated-reason-codes/
21:56 < MrElendig> I said it was strange that iw didn't list HT link speeds
21:56 < Lope> anddam: this is how it's done on realtek: modprobe -r rt2800usb && modprobe rt2800usb nohwcrypt=1
21:57 < anddam> strictly speaking where would I go to check this? kernel source?
21:58 < pankaj> I have switched to bridged network in virtualmachine but when I start the destro in the machine it exits and gives a dialog representing the error: VERR_SUPDRV_COMPONENT_NOT_FOUND
21:59 < Lope> MrElendig: unless iw has improved recently, when I tried it on my wifi adapters, it didn't list any speeds beyond 54g
22:00 < j0seph> i would like a nice thin notebook that would work with nicely linux, and has no 'screen edges'. I'm curently looking at the Dell XPS 15/13 and the Huawei MateBook X Pro. do any of you have any other suggestions? 15inch is preferred but 13inch is fine too.
22:01 < Lope> j0seph: problem with modern laptops is no freaking IO
22:01 < Lope> and RAM not upgradable
22:01 < neoncortex> no screen edges?
22:01 < Lope> I'd be very weary of buying a laptop without an ethernet port.
22:01 < neoncortex> like, if a screen get no edges, it means it's infinite, so it's not portable, maybe even impossible
22:01 < Lope> But one can get by on USB
22:02 < Lope> neoncortex: largest screen in the galaxy
22:02 < j0seph> neoncortex: haha
22:02 < Lope> He means no bevel
22:02 < neoncortex> Lope: it's infinite, it go beyound the realm of matter
22:02 < j0seph> the screen had better be so large that it encompasses the galaxy
22:02 < j0seph> anyway
22:03 < Lope> beZel I mean.
22:03 < j0seph> does anyone have any other suggestions according to that description?
22:03 < Lope> Like Bezos
22:03 < newpy> is there any way to remove the highlights on user-created directories?
22:03 < Lope> neoncortex: and that would be the biggest in the galaxy, cos the edges aren't in the galaxy
22:03 < newpy> just make them a different color instead maybe?
22:03 < neoncortex> sure
22:04 < Lope> the expanding screen in the expanding universe
22:04 < psdn> I have an UEFI issue. I added a boot option in my AMI bios for \EFI\Grub\grubx64.efi, which is correct from a good grub install. Also chose the proper dev and the ESP dev (just to try), but I get the "insert proper whatever and try again". Also reran grub-install with --removable (seemed like my answer), but same result. Not sure where to go next.
22:04 < newpy> I mean that the `ls` command shows user-created directories with a highlighted background
22:04 < newpy> any way to remove that?
22:04 < Lope> j0seph: usually it's a good idea to see if other people have run linux on it. I normally check reviews on newegg and amazon at least.
22:05 < neoncortex> somedays I drink, and then I start to think: the universe are expanding inside of what? because if it's expanding, it means it's have room to grow
22:05 < j0seph> neoncortex, Lope: http://cdn2.alphr.com/sites/alphr/files/styles/16x9_860/public/2017/01/best_laptop_2017_asus_zenbook_3.jpg?itok=kvq5EhVI something like this, where the perimeter of the screen isn't material seperating the screen from the lid. it's just one big, leveled glass slab
22:05 < j0seph> something like the macbook might have
22:06 < neoncortex> j0seph: oh, I have never thinked in that possibility
22:06 < Lope> j0seph: the main things about a laptop that make it nice or suck is batt life, keyboard, (needs all buttons for programming, and arrow keys should be findable by feel). Enter button should be tall not a thin crappy one. No shift on right side of keyboard preferably. A big touchpad with actual right and left buttons. The keyboard and touchpad shouldn't suck balls.
22:07 < neoncortex> Nah, Shift in the right is essential
22:07 < Lope> j0seph: why is no bezel so important to you? are you a hipster?
22:07 < go|dfish> newpy: you can modify the LS_COLORS variable. see the 'dircolors' command
22:08 < neoncortex> because it's supposed that you hold right Shift when typing A S D F, for example, and the left fot H J K L ..
22:08 < Lope> j0seph: oh I see, so there is actually a bezel. Why does that matter?
22:08 < MrElendig> Lope: it does list the correct ht speed for hardware that supports it
22:08 < j0seph> Lope: i am just describing what i meant for clarification seeing as my initial description warrented discussion about how the screen size would encompass the entire universe. in any case, there is no true reason other than i think it looks nice.
22:09 < MrElendig> eg "HT Max RX data rate: 300 Mbps"
22:09 < Lope> j0seph: it's nice having a kensington lock slot on a laptop, for coffee shops. You can lock it to a table or 1-2 chairs and take a quick piss without having to pack up.
22:09 < MrElendig> times as many streams as your hardware supports
22:09 < Lope> j0seph: quite strange that it's so important to you rather than the functionality of the computer.
22:10 < Lope> j0seph: do you plan to gaze upon it without using it?
22:10 < j0seph> Lope: why do you assume the functionality isn't important to me?
22:10 < j0seph> simply because i didn't mention it?
22:10 < Lope> I'm sure you can find art that looks better than a laptop
22:10 < Lope> yeah exactly
22:10 < newpy> go|dfish, I'm using windows subsystem for linux and I've edited the color palette from the console properties
22:10 < Lope> This is not #hipsters
22:10 < solidfox> hi guys
22:10 < Lope> people here are usually focused on practical matters
22:11 < noodlepie> hi
22:11 < newpy> go|dfish, most importantly I changed the Screen Background color, so does that mean that "black" in LS_COLORS now correlates with my new background color?
22:11 < j0seph> Lope: i figured wondering if i could find one that was good for running linux would warrent a mention on a channel named ##linux
22:11 < j0seph> my mistake
22:12 < newpy> Lope, we get it, you have no style, don't take it out on j0seph
22:12 < solidfox> my profile picture has been my real face for too long, im starting to get uncomfortable. so usually I like to have a open source mascot, and sometimes a character from a game. for example, I used the ninja from msfconsole, larry the cow of gentoo linux, and
22:12 < solidfox> i need some suggestions
22:12 < go|dfish> newpy: not sure with that one exactly - sorry.
22:13 < newpy> go|dfish, np I'll just play around with it
22:13 < solidfox> I was thinking the openssh fish-agent but I decided not to, even though it does look cool
22:13 < triceratux> solidfox: https://2ch.hk/s/src/2303470/15254515499530.jpg ?
22:14 < DLange> j0seph: I run a XPS13, it's awesome. I know people running the XPS15 which are very happy, too.
22:14 < solidfox> dat domain doe
22:14 < newpy> DLange, I'm considering the xps13
22:14 < j0seph> DLange: oh that's good to hear then. any problems with wifi drivers or the like?
22:15 < j0seph> or, well, any drivers really haha.
22:15 < newpy> the lenovo t/x-series was in the running too but then I heard about them screwing with ssl tls
22:15 < Lope> who cares about wifi, as long as it looks sleek as can be.
22:15 < DLange> no, none at all. And the BIOS can update itself from USB.
22:15 < solidfox> triceratux, that pic looks sad
22:15 < Lope> Just get a piece of marble from a tile shop instead, no edges at all.
22:15 < newpy> Lope, wifi IS sleek
22:15 < DLange> Lope: I think you made your point earlier. And often enough.
22:15 < j0seph> ^
22:15 < newpy> Lope, why don't you use ethernet and eek out that extra bit of FUNCTION
22:15 < newpy> lol
22:15 < solidfox> triceratux, is richard alright
22:15 < newpy> Lope, disable your wifi it's not functional
22:16 < newpy> stop being a hipster and use a cable
22:16 < solidfox> RMS if you're here, just to let you know I acknowledge that you made a big contribution to the community with GNU.
22:16 < solidfox> thankyou
22:16 < solidfox> don't be sad.
22:16 < Lope> newpy: I am using a cable and your jokes could use an upgrade.
22:16 < triceratux> solidfox: could always go with this https://2ch.hk/s/src/2301667/15252881862230.jpg
22:16 < newpy> Lope, can't upgrade, trying to be functional
22:17 < Lope> newpy: no need to get all heavy, I was just commenting that I find j0seph's concerns strange.
22:17 < solidfox> triceratux, nah too random. I don't know what it is.
22:17 < newpy> Lope, and I'm just commenting that your concerns are why linux isn't more popular
22:17 < newpy> mac succeeding where you failed should give you pause
22:18 < Lope> the fact that morons buy macs does not bother me. They deserve what they get.
22:18 < artyx> Is there a way to detach an aligned screen interface .. like lets say i split the screen into 5 views. is there a way to preserve views so when i reattach i dont have to rebuild the vview
22:18 < solidfox> triceratux, now I want some sausages
22:18 < solidfox> triceratux, ur makin me hungry!
22:18 < newpy> Lope, macs are even more popular in the programming community
22:18 < Lope> yeah, lots of hipsters want to code these days, I've noticed.
22:18 < ntd> +1
22:19 < neoncortex> yes, coding now is 'cool'
22:19 < Lope> Then they can't do much and live in a jail and are like "well at least it looks nice"
22:19 < Lope> being a nerd is fasionable now.
22:20 < Lope> Before they were like "you fuckin nerds!"
22:20 < newpy> Lope, eh most of the mac users at my company are clutch mathematicians
22:20 < Lope> Sheep brains
22:20 < newpy> and they were never like "you fuckin nerds!"
22:20 < newpy> that's just your fantasy mate
22:20 < noodlepie> technical people are cool.
22:20 < Lope> newpy: maybe not where you grew up
22:20 < newpy> it's not footballers turned programmers
22:20 < noodlepie> hehe
22:20 < newpy> not where anyone grew up
22:20 < newpy> it's your fantasy
22:21 < Lope> newpy: then you're definitely in a fantasy world.
22:21 < Lope> Anyways, cheers, I'm moving on.
22:21 < newpy> jocks didn't suddenly become programmers
22:21 < newpy> I mean I get your meaning, people play at "programming"
22:21 < neoncortex> Personally, I think it's can be good, more people learning stuff, maybe the overall IQ of population will increase somehow
22:22 < Lope> A hipster is not a jock.
22:22 < sammyg> in what linux command do you use the syntax r/ello/hello fore regex replacement?
22:22 < DLange> artyx: https://superuser.com/questions/687348/how-to-persist-gnu-screen-layout-after-restart
22:22 < newpy> Lope, well if you mean that since apple more effort is put into user experience (ie. hipster?) then sure
22:22 < solidfox> guys quit being so sensitive. what is this group therapy?
22:23 < solidfox> who cares who you've seen programming
22:23 < solidfox> lol
22:23 < newpy> Lope, but I think if you have this pavlovian response to design, you're going to miss the boat
22:24 < sammyg> sammyg, it is sed
22:24 < Lope> similar, but different. Both are trying to be liked by following patterns set by society, one is following the macho pattern (jock) the other is following the stylish and sophisticated pattern (hipster).
22:24 < newpy> Lope, in fact a pretty "nerdy" thing to do is brag about your tower
22:24 < newpy> Lope, and has been for a while no?
22:24 < neoncortex> For me, a screen need: 1) To display things in a readable way, 2) Preferably colored .. But I can understand people want it beautiful
22:24 < sammyg> sammyg, s/r/s
22:24 < solidfox> whole lotta waah in here
22:25 < j0seph> i didn't mention functionality, obviously meaning that i don't care if the computer works at all. hand me a piece of curved glass, that should be enough to run linux right?
22:25 < solidfox> if you don't like seeing different people, maybe you should stay inside.
22:25 < Lope> if you want beautiful, get a girlfriend or go into nature. Or just keep cuddling your laptop and stay indoors.
22:25 < newpy> Lope, just imagining your wardrobe makes me cringe
22:26  * sammyg is having a monologue
22:26 < Lope> hipster!
22:26 < Lope> haha
22:26 < newpy> hehe
22:26 < neoncortex> I have to disgree, you can't rule over people, like say how they have to live their lives
22:26 < cocaine> hi
22:26 < solidfox> the world is not always going to fit into your expected patterns, you've just gotta deal with it.
22:27 < newpy> I also like how Lope's insinuation is that people who care how their laptop looks like to stay indoors
22:27 < newpy> I've found it's almost universally the opposite
22:27 < Lope> neoncortex: not saying how anyone should live, just a suggestion. Trying to get beauty out of something practical is futile. It's never going to function very well or look very great.
22:27 < solidfox> I stay indoors to be honest.
22:27 < solidfox> but my laptop is plain
22:27 < newpy> Lope, there is plenty of space where function has nothing to say
22:27 < newpy> like bezeling lol
22:27 < solidfox> just some cheap acer POS
22:27 < neoncortex> Lope: look at automobile industry =D
22:28 < newpy> solidfox, well you fail on function AND form :P
22:28 < solidfox> yep lol
22:28 < Lope> newpy: that's not actually true, people who use apple crap give up a lot, can't replace battery for example, have to break the thing open and melt glue to change components.
22:28 < solidfox> its not cool, or powerful. its "cheap" :P
22:28 < Lope> That's poor functionality, poor maintenance, for good design.
22:28 < newpy> Lope, very true I didn't mean apple specifically there
22:28 < j0seph> how about this: i ask about laptops that 'look nice' a la Dell XPS / Huawei MateBook and also say "has a lot of IO ports, UK keyboard layout, decent keyboard". would this stop the train or should sit back and bask in the storm I have called?
22:28 < j0seph> :P
22:29 < j0seph> should I*
22:29 < Lope> The battle of the pragmatists and the hipsters
22:29 < neoncortex> j0seph: now you ahve to deal with it xD
22:29 < cocaine> its c00000l
22:29 < j0seph> neoncortex: sure, i shall think twice next time i ask questions in this channel. XD
22:29 < Lope> okay, hopefully someone can hold the pragmatism fort, I'm leaving
22:30 < newpy> Lope, it's not even pragmatism though, you could even just copy successful design
22:30 < newpy> Lope, there's this bizarre fetishization of nerdiness by nerds too
22:30 < newpy> ie. nerd cred by dressing like shit
22:30 < neoncortex> newpy: they leaved already
22:30 < newpy> neoncortex oh so he did
22:31 < j0seph> newpy: you are currently not mentioning anything in regards to functionality NOR form, you must be opposed to both!
22:31 < DLange> Purism ad in the quit message, that explains a lot
22:32 < j0seph> yeah i saw that haha.
22:32 < newpy> DLange, haha I thought the same thing
22:32 < j0seph> pardon me for wanting things to look nice lol
22:32 < cocaine> hi Edward
22:33 < DLange> impossible, you use Linux. It must be ugly. Or it were MacOS!!1!
22:33 < solidfox> linux is kinda hipsterish itself
22:33 < newpy> solidfox, oh no doubt, people waxing poetic about which shell they use, or distro
22:34 < DLange> 50+ year old emacs users that consider themselves hipsters
22:34 < j0seph> DLange: hahaha true. in truth, i don't care TOO much about the form, otherwise I wouldn't be using the laptop I'm using right now. it's just that mentioning form narrows down my choices a lot and then helps me choose because there are a lot of things that function superbly but look like camel scrotum.
22:34 < cocaine> who the hell is cocaine
22:34  * DLange is surprise by what j0seph seems to have inspected in detail
22:34 < newpy> j0seph, you care more once you get something good, it's hard to go back to a lenovo w520
22:35 < solidfox> sammyg, its a mystery
22:35 < sammyg> :O
22:35 < solidfox> "realname" is their real name
22:36 < j0seph> granted, given my criteria was both form and function, i should have mentioned the function as there are a lot of things that look nice but perform horribly. but even so, the fact that i am on IRC, freenode, on a channel called ##linux should hopefully have made that a given :P
22:36 < j0seph> obvioiusly not, though.
22:36 < DLange> you don't know how often people here tell us they run MacOS after half an hour of guessing around why things don't work for them
22:37 < j0seph> DLange: i have to thank you though, it's nice to have input from someone who actually uses one of the products I mentioned because that would make it easier to choose. in truth, i'm just fantasizing over what i could buy if i had a lot of money :P
22:37 < j0seph> DLange: that's odd. if i had known i probably would have been more clear in what i wanted. i suppose i can understand it to some extent as they're both ahdering to unix rules but, eh.
22:38 < anddam> what does "SKU" mean?
22:38 < neoncortex> to be honest I want a machine without propietary BIOS, without hidden functionality in their components
22:38 < newpy> you can get an xps13 for ~$750, not a lot at all
22:39 < ntd> xps13: "no glare screen" option?
22:39 < j0seph> newpy: really? from where? dell site obviously display prices up to £1200 haha
22:39 < newpy> not sure, I think it's matte
22:39 < DLange> anddam: Stock Keeping Unit, basically the number you identify stuff ordered with
22:39 < anddam> I'm referring to the wireless specs " 802.11n or 802.11ac products (SKU dependent)"  from https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers/iwlwifi
22:39 < ntd> and does the matte screen have touch
22:39 < ntd> not that you'd use it
22:39 < DLange> nope
22:39 < ntd> but hey, t-series have matte touch screens now
22:39 < newpy> j0seph, https://www.amazon.com/Dell-Flagship-InfinityEdge-anti-glare-Touchscreen/dp/B01MF7A38B/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1525552765&sr=8-9&keywords=dell+xps+13
22:40 < newpy> that one's $800 with a touchscreen
22:40 < j0seph> ntd: i use KDE so it probably would be good to have a touch screen. granted i probably am going to move away from KDE at some point
22:40 < anddam> DLange: so my card could be either one, according to its actual serial no.?
22:40 < j0seph> maybe LXQt has something to offer
22:40 < neoncortex> I'm thinkig into those one: https://shop.libiquity.com/product/taurinus-x200, not perfect but a good start
22:40 < DLange> sounds reasonable, anddam
22:41 < j0seph> newpy: if only there were more people like you and DLange around :P
22:41 < DLange> this channel would be boring, j0seph :)
22:41 < j0seph> they;d be helpful at least haha
22:41 < DLange> aah, we keep a good balance
22:41 < newpy> j0seph, http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-9360-laptop
22:41 < newpy> you can customize there
22:42 < newpy> I'd prefer one without the touchscreen, better cpu instead
22:42 < newpy> or more ram/ssd
22:42 < ntd> it's xps13, t4*0 or purism
22:42 < newpy> ntd, purism is overpriced
22:42 < ntd> sure
22:43 < ntd> but the "eccentricities" should be present on market
22:43 < ntd> t48* and carbon x1 have webcam blinders now
22:44 < j0seph> newpy: http://www.dell.com/en-uk/shop/laptops-notebooks-and-2-in-1-laptops/xps-13-dell-cinema-laptop/spd/xps-13-9370-laptop
22:44 < j0seph> dell is cheating us!
22:44 < neoncortex> talking about eccentricities, I also like this idea: https://www.zdnet.com/product/gemini-pda/
22:44 < j0seph> i'm a brit unfortunately so I can't nab those sweet US deals.
22:44 < newpy> btw, I did `dircolors --print-database`
22:44 < newpy> which setting there is for user-created directories?
22:45 < newpy> I want to change the background
22:46 < j0seph> btw, I'm currently running on an HP 250 G6 and it's really good. keyboard is a bit odd for me though as I am a UK-dweller.
22:48 < newpy> joseph, ohhh UK haha
22:48 < newpy> joseph, blame your govt
22:48 < j0seph> newpy: gladly
22:48 < neoncortex> maybe I have to build my mobile from scratch, with something like Raspberry Pi, wood, a saw and some wires
22:48 < newpy> j0seph, what're you at, 20% VAT?
22:50 < j0seph> newpy: most likely yes
22:51 < j0seph> i would be fine with it if they did something superb with it
22:51 < j0seph> but for what;s happening right now? not really
22:52 < newpy> j0seph, sorry fox hunting must be protected
22:53 < j0seph> newpy: those poor foxes, our funds shall go to them instead of the nationalised healthcare
22:53 < j0seph> it's the right thing to do
22:55 < thadtheman> If I modify an entry in a directory, the modify time of the directory doesn't change does it?
22:57 < revel> "an entry in the directory" being a file? I don't think so.
22:58 < revel> Yeah, a quick test says "it doesn't"
22:58 < DLange> it changes if you add or delete files in that directory
22:59 < DLange> aka you _modify_ the directory (_m_time)
23:00 < soman> Hi all. XFCE 4.12 How can I save my notes to see them after reboot? (xfce4-notes)
23:02 < newpy> hmm, how important is it that other-writable directories show up highlighted?
23:02 < newpy> has anyone here run into an important use-case?
23:05 < j0seph> newpy: afraid not. i didn't use xfce for long.
23:13 < clemens3> just started twm after 25 years, dejavu moment..
23:19 < fujisan> twm
23:19 < fujisan> clemens3:
23:19 < fujisan> netsplit?
23:19 < pnbeast> clemens3, I've heard it has a wildly prolific dev community and has changed a lot in that time.  Or not.
23:19 < fujisan> what is twm?
23:20 < clemens3> well, to be honest, I don't exactly remember which wms I tried back in the day, I am sure I didnt end up with twm, but it looks "familiar" as in, have seen that before..
23:20 < pnbeast> If only there were some place to search for words like "linux twm" and get all kinds of response.
23:20 < clemens3> focus follows mouse and stuff.. anyway, it was easy to compile:).. and I didnt compile it back then myself.. that's the difference
23:22 < clemens3> fujisan: one of the oldy window managers
23:22 < BlueProtoman> I'm trying to remove a directory, but it's telling me that it's not empty even though it should be.  `ls the_relevant_directory` returns an "Input/output error".  The distro is Ubuntu 17.10, the file system is NTFS via ntfs-3g, and the file system is not otherwise behaving weirdly.  Any thoughts?
23:22 < fujisan> oh ok ty clemens3
23:22 < revel> SporkWitch: Are your initials RK?
23:23 < blawiz> how to stop prompting for luke encrypted partition sda3 at bootup? (i dont want to open it at boot)
23:24 < SporkWitch> revel: why do you ask?
23:24 < SporkWitch> blawiz: remove it from fstab
23:24 < revel> Just wondering if there are tons of Sporkwitches around.
23:24 < MrElendig> blawiz: distro dependent
23:24 < blawiz> MrElendig: voidlinux
23:24 < SporkWitch> revel: just the one that i know of; i've never been beaten to it, though every time i say that i kind of expect some troll to find a site and use my name
23:25 < blawiz> SporkWitch: i have it there, but i have noauto ... also its not mounted i think it just lukeOpens it
23:25 < MrElendig> s/luksOpen/open/
23:25 < revel> RK then, right?
23:25 < SporkWitch> blawiz: can't remember the other place
23:25 < SporkWitch> revel: yes
23:25 < MrElendig> also https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Void-Linux-Infrastructure-Limbo
23:26 < pnbeast> Hey, everyone, check out my new website, www.sporkwitchdiscountmortgagesincreaseyourgirth.com!
23:26 < SporkWitch> revel: it's not exactly hard to find out who i am; it's not worth the effort to hide lol
23:26 < uplime> i visit that site every dya
23:26 < SporkWitch> pnbeast: damn, i'd have laughed if you actually registered it :P
23:26 < revel> If I thought you would try to hide it, then I wouldn't have bothered asking :P
23:47 < Celmor> can I monitor which files a process touches?
23:49 < ananke> Celmor: yes
23:50 < Celmor> how?
23:50 < ananke> easiest may be strace, and monitoring for open system calls. eg: strace -eopen -f -t -p <some process>
23:51 < Celmor> for this the process already needs to exist, though I have a command I need to run which finished after a few seconds and need to know what files it writes where
23:52 < uplime> :L i wish strace was more widely used in unix like it is in linux
23:52 < uplime> (yes i know dtrace is a thing, but sometimes i just need a simple syscall tracer and none of the other stuff it can do)
23:53 < pnbeast> uplime, in what UNIX?  truss...
23:53 < uplime> FreeBSD/macos primarily
23:54 < mawk> Celmor: I made something that allows you to know which files a program writes
23:54 < pnbeast> Not quite UNIX...
23:54 < mawk> I initially made it as a wrapper for make install
23:54 < mawk> to be able to uninstall later
23:55 < uplime> pnbeast: whats not quite unix?
23:55 <@jim> uplime, maybe someone has an strace that works on a similar kernel
23:55 < pnbeast> uplime, FBSD isn't.
23:55 < uplime> pnbeast: yes it is
23:55 < sauvin> FreeBSD isn't UNIX? When did this happen?
23:55 < uplime> jim: it exists. theres just not as much support for it
23:55 < pnbeast> FBSD is a BSD.
23:55 < sauvin> And what are BSDs?
23:55 < uplime> oh wait, no its not
23:55 < uplime> its unix like
23:55 < uplime> TIL
23:56 < uplime> > FreeBSD cannot use the Unix trademark, it is a direct descendant of BSD, which was historically also called "BSD Unix" or "Berkeley Unix".
23:56 < pnbeast> sauvin, you can read all the websites just like everyone else.
23:56 <@jim> what's TIL?
23:56 < uplime> today i learned
23:56 < sauvin> Does Berkeley UNIX not have direct UNIX heritage?
23:57 <@jim> oh yeah :) I remember from the other day...
23:57 < uplime> sauvin: according to wikipedia it does, but it can't use the trademark for "legal reasons"
23:57 < uplime> jim: yeah sorry, i forgot we're not supposed to use shorthand like that here
23:57 < pnbeast> The UNIX (unices... ugh) were proprietary dinosaurs.  You can still see their tails and forelimbs and such poking out of the tarpits, if you look closely, but they're dead.
23:57 <@jim> so it's legally not "unix"
23:57 < uplime> apparently
23:58 < uplime> appreciate the correction pnbeast
23:58 < sauvin> But in effect, they *are* UNIX, even if not legally.
23:58 < Celmor> mawk, did you put it up somewhere?
23:58 < pnbeast> Okay, "in effect", Linux is UNIX, too.
23:58 < uplime> well not really
23:58 < uplime> fbsd is still POSIX compliant even if its not legally unix
23:58 < pnbeast> uplime, that was aimed at sauvin's claim.
23:59 < sauvin> Not really, because Linux has no direct UNIX heritage. It really *is* "UNIX-like".
23:59 < uplime> and its not posix compliant
23:59 < pnbeast> What, because someone rewrote the code that does all the UNIX-like things, it's not UNIX?  Then we're right back to BSD.
--- Log closed Sun May 06 00:00:10 2018