--- Log opened Mon May 14 00:00:00 2018
--- Day changed Mon May 14 2018
00:00 < nafg> I mean I think the loading is slowing me down every time I reboot
00:00 < rascul> better actually to use 'modprobe -r' instead of rmmod
00:00 < rascul> it shouldn't be
00:00 < rascul> it's almost certainly not the loading of modules slowing you down
00:00 < rascul> almost, but not completely
00:00 < rascul> why do you think it's the kernel modules?
00:01 < nafg> triceratux: the last line in the log is dbus-core: error connecting to system bus: .... FileNotFound (Failed to connect to socket /var/run/dbus/system_bus_socket: No such file or directory
00:01 < rascul> see if there's something earlier about dbus not starting
00:02 < nafg> not in the X log
00:02 < nafg> that error occurs earlier tho
00:03 < rascul> yeah that would be in a different log
00:03 < nafg> systemctl status dbus.service says inactive (dead)
00:03 < rascul> systemctl start dbus.service
00:04 < rascul> also check journalctl -u dbus
00:05 < nafg> start says manual start is disallowed
00:05 < nafg> I can't find anything helpful in journal other than it starts and later is shutting down
00:06 < stevendale> Morning
00:06 < jim> hi
00:10 < nafg> Any other ideas?
00:12 < jonan> whats your guys preferred program for downloading websites for offline viewing?
00:13 < stevendale> jonan Chrome
00:13 < jonan> would i be able to do that with wget?
00:14 < klock> yes
00:14 < winsoff_> What's the easiest way to find an interface's gateway?
00:22 < TheSov> whats a good wait to scrape iowait from several machines at one?
00:26 < mawk> winsoff_: it's a tricky question
00:26 < mawk> I dedicated a whole C++ lib to this kind of thing
00:26 < mawk> but to do it quickly you can do ip route get 192.0.2.1 oif $IFACE
00:27 < mawk> and it will give you the gateway if any
00:27 < turkeyhand> hi, I had to install arch quickly so I used an installer, it didn't probe for windows, linux is on the third partition and I set that as the boot partition, but I can't get grub to find windows
00:27 < mawk> from any bash script it should work
00:28 < mawk> winsoff_: for interface enp5s0: [[ $(ip route get 192.0.2.1 oif enp5s0) =~ (^|' ')via' '([^' ']+)(' '|$) ]] && echo ${BASH_REMATCH[2]}
00:28 < triceratux> https://sourceforge.net/p/boot-repair/home/Home/
00:29 < turkeyhand> will that work with arch?
00:30 < turkeyhand> and win10?
00:30 < winsoff_> mawk, that's insane
00:30 < triceratux> turkeyhand: it tries to. theres no magic bullet most of the time
00:31 < winsoff_> why isn't it just listed by ifconfig?
00:31 < mawk> because gateway isn't a precise thing winsoff_
00:31 < mawk> why is it insane ? it's just one command
00:31 < turkeyhand> how would I do it manually?
00:31 < winsoff_> also, why 192.0.2.1?
00:31 < mawk> you can have several gateways for several routes, or different gateway depending on any number of factor
00:31 < mawk> the best way is to query the routing table
00:32 < winsoff_> true
00:32 < phogg> mawk: if it takes a complicated c++ lib why not create some CLI wrapper around that so that the there's an easy way from the command line?
00:32 < winsoff_> also, why is linux's traceroute so much faster than windows' tracert?
00:32 < mawk> that already exists phogg , it's called ip
00:32 < mawk> I've just done the lib counterpart of ip
00:32 < turkeyhand> that specifically says debian, my windows is inaccessible
00:32 < phogg> mawk: I wouldn't call the usage you describe easy
00:32 < ananke> winsoff_: it uses different protocol
00:32 < mawk> winsoff_: 192.0.2.1 is an ip from the test network, that way I'm sure there are no special routes to it so it will match the default gateway
00:33 < winsoff_> mawk, THE test network, or yours? Sorry; I am unfamiliar.
00:33 < mawk> the test network yes
00:33 < winsoff_> ananke, traceroute doesn't use ICMP?
00:34 < phogg> winsoff_: did you read the man page?
00:34 < mawk> it's in some RFC, it's an ip range dedicated to documentation, like 2001:db8::/32 in IPv6
00:34 < winsoff_> phogg, just about to.
00:34 < winsoff_> mawk: That's interesting. Huh.
00:34 < mawk> this ip can never be a routing destination so I'm sure it's not listed in the routing table, so it will catch the 0.0.0.0/0 route
00:34 < ananke> winsoff_: on windows it does. on linux by default it uses udp
00:34 < mawk> winsoff_: using ICMP requires root, that's maybe why it's not done by default
00:34 < mawk> also it's more prone to get catched by firewalls
00:35 < ananke> 'caught' not 'catched'
00:35 < mawk> sorry
00:37 < mawk> yeah phogg ip isn't script friendly
00:38 < phogg> mawk: indeed
00:39 < phogg> I have an incomplete bash script where I am trying to accept ifconfig input, run ip, parse the response and produce ifconfig output
00:39 < phogg> it's somewhat complicated
00:40 < mawk> nice
00:41 < mawk> winsoff_: on a side note gateways are a system-wide thing, you can have one per interface but only the gateway with the lower metric applies (or you can have more complicated setup, for instance have the gateways in separate routing table and select the routing table you want based on a mark on the packet set by iptables or by some application)
00:41 < phogg> it's for the future when I still reflexively type ifc<tab> <device><enter> but a distribution has chosen to not ship ifconfig.
00:41 < mawk> lol
00:41 < phogg> and also partially for the people who find the ifconfig output easier to ready
00:41 < phogg> read*
00:42 < mawk> ip has colors
00:42 < winsoff_> mawk, interesting. How long has ip been a thing? Is it available on all linux distros?
00:43 < mawk> I guess it is, yeah
00:43 < mawk> for modern distros
00:44 < mawk> it's in debian since Jessie, apparently
00:44 < mawk> which is the old old stable version
01:07 < supernovah> Hey where might my dns information be stored if I can't find how it's resolving to use google's DNS in /etc/network/interfaces, /etc/dhcp/dhcp.conf or /etc/resolv.conf? Only suggestion of a dns server is that resolv.conf has an entry for 127.0.1.1 which in /etc/hosts is named after the hostname of the computre
01:09 < [R]> supernovah: what makes you think its using google dns?
01:09 < supernovah> The fac that it is...
01:10 < [R]> what?
01:10 < supernovah> fac = fact
01:10 < [R]> ...
01:10 < supernovah> is /etc/NetworkManager/systerm-connections/Wired\ connection\ 1, something I should modify? Looks dynamic...
01:11 < tds> 127.0.1.1 sounds like dnsmasq, in this case it's probably managed by network-manager
01:11 < stevendale> Hi tds, superkuh
01:11 < stevendale> supernovah*
01:11 < tds> you can certainly change things with nmcli, I can't remember how network-manager behaves if you try and edit the config files while it's running
01:11 < supernovah> hi
01:12 < tds> hello :)
01:12 < stevendale> 127.0.1.1 is always present in GNU/Linux in hosts, unless you setup something like Arch and do a sloppy job
01:12 < [R]> "always present" and "gnu/linux"...
01:12 < [R]> i love when people don't know what they are talking about
01:12 < stevendale> It's always 127.0.1.1<TAB>myhostname.localdomain myhostname
01:13 < [R]> it *SHOULD* be present
01:13 < stevendale> I love when you don't say anything at all [R]
01:13 < supernovah> so if my company's dns has a name, should i enter that in hosts to alias the dns address?
01:14 < supernovah> or just the ip and it does the magic for its own name in the DNS layer
01:14 < supernovah> second comment there means, just enter the ip when configuring dns in nmcli, not putting it in hosts alone somehow
01:17 < supernovah> nvm the tech guy is doing it yay
01:21 < Psi-Jack> supernovah: "nevermind" not "nvm"
01:34 < storge> Psi-Jack: y u mad bro?
01:34 < storge> --just kidding
01:34 < storge> i agree
01:34 < Psi-Jack> storge: Use Standard English. :p
01:59 < supernovah> nvm is standardised these days
02:02 < Aph3x-WL> r u 4 reel
02:02 < Psi-Jack> supernovah: Yet not accepted /here/.
02:05 < Aph3x-WL> using "/here/" is not standard english
02:06 < storge> man u /really/ muddied the H2O with /these/
02:08 < Sitri> Wow, what's with all the hate for making things easier for the ESL people?
02:10 < ayecee> it's not the why, it's the how
02:10 < Psi-Jack> Sitri: I know, right? It's simply channel rules, too, so there is no excuse.
02:11 < s0k_iT> could someone help me with ngrep?
02:11 < Sitri> Just ask
02:13 < s0k_iT> so right now im using
02:13 < s0k_iT> sudo ngrep -I name.pcap | grep -aE 10.0.250.200 | awk '{print $2}' | sort | grep -aE
02:13 < s0k_iT> '[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]' | sort | awk -F ':[0-9]' '{print $1}' | sort | uniq -c
02:13 < s0k_iT> But I want to change it to include all IPs
02:17 < Sitri> What are trying to do?
02:18 < Sitri> Just list all the source IPs that were interacting with 10.0.250.200?
02:18 < Sitri> Oh wait no, you're listing the ports
02:19 < s0k_iT> yea is there way to list all source IPs without stating them specifically?
02:20 < s0k_iT> or just list each IP in the grep -aE?
02:20 < Sitri> So... you have zero clue what that pipeline does
02:22 < tomreyn> hi there. https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/filesystems/vfat.txt states that vfat supports the "discard" mount option. would this not mean that fstrim -v agains tthe mounted file system should succeed, too?
02:22 < Sitri> The first grep -aE filters for that IP, you can remove it safely.  The first two sorts can likewise safely be removed.
02:22 < wadadli> /exit
02:23 < Sitri> I'm not sure the second grep does anything, but if it's meant to filter for ip4, there's an easier way to do that
02:24 < tomreyn> answer to self: https://askubuntu.com/questions/391101/does-trim-work-with-fat32
02:25 < Sitri> sudo ngrep -I name.pcap 'ip || (vlan && ip)' | awk '{print $2}' | awk -F ':[0-9]' '{print $1}' | sort | uniq -c
02:27 < s0k_iT> got it, thanks for the help
02:36 < supernovah> @Sitri: no hate, I'm ESL, my friends mostly are. Nobody I know has any difficulty using common shothands like nvm, brt etc
02:36 < supernovah> Wait for the comment about my use of @
02:42 < [R]> supernovah: you're quite argumentative...
02:54 < storge> [R]: you're quite ...oh what's the word
02:54 < kavity> What is brt?
02:57 < pnbeast> Belgische Radio- en Televisieomroep.
03:08 < rascul> bus rapid transit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit
03:08 < rascul> nvm is clearly the node version manager https://github.com/creationix/nvm
03:11 < s0k_iT> so I am using sudo ngrep -I name.pcap, I am trying to list all the IPs that connected without any duplicates and possibly the number of requests
03:12 < Dan39> ngrep?
03:12 < s0k_iT> yes
03:14 < Dan39> i just use tcpdump -r, what's the difference?
03:14 < s0k_iT> i would if i could, its for a school project
03:15 < Dan39> o_O
03:15 < Dan39> s0k_iT: can you pipe it through sort/unique to remove duplicates?
03:16 < Dan39> uniq i mean
03:16 < s0k_iT> yea but how do i filter out just the IP from the packet first?
03:16 < ananke> end of the semester, we're going to get plenty of 'didn't do it all semester, help me now' cases
03:17 < tcpdump> Dan39: difference in what?
03:17 < Dan39> tcpdump: :o
03:17 < ananke> s0k_iT: have you tried reading any of the manuals and looked at any examples yet?
03:17 < Dan39> tcpdump: you vs ngrep
03:17 < tcpdump> theres not a ton of difference
03:17 < tcpdump> ngrep is better for real time output
03:17 < tcpdump> imho
03:18 < tcpdump> whereas tcpdump for pcaps
03:18 < s0k_iT> yes I have been reading manuals just havent found it yet
03:18 < tcpdump> I usually use ngrap for hunting down real time info that I dont need a pcap for, personally.
03:18 < Dan39> s0k_iT: awk maybe?
03:18 < ananke> s0k_iT: seems like you haven't done much. all you showed was simply reading pcap file. what have you done so far?
03:19 < tcpdump> s0k_iT: do a pcap and then use a display filter in wiresharl
03:19 < tcpdump> wireshark
03:19 < s0k_iT> this is previous one
03:19 < s0k_iT> sudo ngrep -I Project2.pcap | grep -aE 10.0.250.200 | awk '{print $2}' | sort | grep -aE '[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]' | sort | awk -F ':[0-9]' '{print $1}' | sort | uniq -c
03:19 < s0k_iT> now I just have to modify it to include all IPs
03:20 < ananke> s0k_iT: seems you're not really grasping what the 'previous one' is doing
03:22 < Dan39> s0k_iT: i have faith in you. it shouldnt be too hard
03:23 < s0k_iT> its kickin my arse right now, ill get it though
03:24 < Dan39> Some1NamedNate: you aren't too tall, are you? :P
03:27 < sauvin> What is ngrep?
03:28 < Dan39> sauvin: it's like tcpdump it seems
03:28 < ananke> sauvin: think like a combination of tcpdump with grep
03:28 < sauvin> Sounds painful.
03:28 < Dan39> but... why? we have tcpdump and grep...
03:29 < ananke> Dan39: because combining them is painful
03:29 < tcpdump> Yea
03:29 < tcpdump> just pick one
03:29 < Dan39> thats what i'm saying
03:29 < tcpdump> and use it
03:29 < tcpdump> Ok whats the goal?
03:29 < Dan39> to highlight you more!
03:33 < Some1NamedNate> Dan39: ?
03:34 < tcpdump> meh
03:34 < Dan39> Some1NamedNate: just a joke. some developer of software i used had nick TooTallNate
03:34 < tcpdump> no biggie
03:34 < s0k_iT> so i think i got it, sudo ngrep -I Project2.pcap | awk '{match($0,/[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+/); ip = substr($0,RSTART,RLENGTH); print ip}' |sort -u
03:34 < tcpdump> s0k_iT: but why?
03:34 < Dan39> s0k_iT: wtf?
03:34 < Some1NamedNate> Dan39: never heard of him
03:35 < sauvin> OK, this ain't funny. This is the second distro I've installed in a VM in as many days where the moment the screen saver kicks in, it's impossible to get back into the system.
03:35 < Dan39> though sort -u, nice
03:35 < Dan39> sauvin: hahaha. what distro?
03:35 < s0k_iT> its just something i have to do for a project, i would much rather just use wireshark
03:35 < Dan39> s0k_iT: i mean why the awk match/substr/print thing?
03:36 < triceratux> sauvin: let me guess. the first one was mageia. what this time ?
03:36 < sauvin> triceratux, correct. This one is Gentoo.
03:36 < triceratux> pffft
03:36 < triceratux> demand yer money back
03:36 < s0k_iT> to filter out the IPs
03:37 < sauvin> It's *gonna* wind up in the trash bin, and I'll most certainly tell people to steer clear of these distros.
03:37 < quul> maybe your VM is broken
03:37 < triceratux> maybe virtualisation doesnt play well with linux screensaving ^^
03:37 < notmike> Gentoo is off-topic in ##slackware
03:38 < Some1NamedNate> i'm trying to apply the bash 4.4.19 patch from within the 4.4.18 tree
03:38 < Some1NamedNate> doesn't work for me at all so far
03:38 < sauvin> My VM might be broken, yes, but I've already got several OTHER installs where the problem doesn't occur.
03:39 < Some1NamedNate> someone help meh
03:42 < Some1NamedNate> hello?!
03:42 < aex>  #systemadmin how can i join here?
03:42 < pnbeast> Oh, it's the "doesn't work" problem!  To fix that problem, Some1NamedNate, you should MAKE it work.
03:42 < noodlepie> Hiya
03:43 < pnbeast> aex, is the topic here "how to join other channels"?
03:43 < aex> thanks pnbeast
03:43  * sauvin goes into System -> Settings -> Desktop Behaviour and screeams "QUIT LOCKING ME OUTTA MY VM!"
03:43 < pnbeast> You betcha.
03:43 < ananke> Some1NamedNate: you need to add a few emojis to that 'hello', otherwise we'll ignore you
03:44 < sauvin> aex, what happens when you try?
03:44 < pnbeast> An angel cries out a kitten every time you do that, sauvin.
03:44 < Some1NamedNate> 😎
03:44 < quul> i always wondered where kittens came from
03:44 < Some1NamedNate> tada
03:44 < sauvin> Prepare to be inundated with kitty cats, then.
03:44 < aex> Cannot join #systemadmin (Channel is invite only)  this is been reported sauvin
03:44 < sauvin> aex, tjat
03:45 < sauvin> (grr)
03:45 < aex> someone make it private?
03:45 < sauvin> That's not an error. You need to find somebody who knows about that channel and get yourself invited.
03:45 < Some1NamedNate> "tjat" XD
03:45 < sauvin> Yeah. Touch typing with butter fingers means buggered typing.
03:45 < aex> sorry i'm new here at IRC
03:46 < quul> apology accepted
03:47 < jordan4ibanez> Hello, I am trying to start up the latest version of arch/Ubuntu and I keep getting a kernel panic, 10th iso, 5th cd, and usb https://i.imgur.com/QoTawIa.jpg
03:47 < jordan4ibanez> Soon as I select install I get the kernel panic
03:47 < jml2> jordan4ibanez, dc3dd can tell you if the checksum of the bytes on the usb match the iso
03:48 < jordan4ibanez> Already did that sum5 match passed everytime
03:48 < quul> wtf is "the idle task"
03:48 < jml2> jordan4ibanez, you um should re-read what I meant
03:48 < jml2> jordan4ibanez, :)
03:48 < jml2> quul, lol
03:49 < jml2> quul, first thing I see here after i login is an apology and a granted acceptance of it. sweet.
03:49 < aex> jordan4ibanez do you pick the right arch of your system?
03:49 < jml2> quul, but I still.. um... don't like you :)
03:49 < jml2> XDXDXDXDXD
03:50 < jordan4ibanez> aex: Yes, I'm running an hp z400 workstation with x86_64 arch iso
03:50 < jml2> where's that muscovite? he needs a smack
03:51  * sauvin gets gentoo installed and promptly uses it to play mah-jongg
03:51 < aex> jordan4ibanez kernel panic is mean kernel cannot decompressed itself for installation
03:51 < aex> so you must select the right architecture of your system
03:53 < jordan4ibanez> aex: Even when I go with a distro like ubuntu 16.04 when I upgrade to 18.04 with latest kernel none of my usb ports will function
03:53 < aex> someone invite me to system admin for i like to become one haha!
03:54 < aex> jordan4ibanez that's the problem of kernel upgrade that's why i love MX linux is based on debian 9 stable
03:55 < aex> ubuntu is based on SID - still in development or testing so you will always have broken package and dependecies
03:55 < sauvin> I've actually found ubuntu rather stable, been using it for years, but I also tend to stick with LTS releases.
03:55 < rascul> ubuntu doesn't use testing anymore
03:55 < Dreaman> bulshit usb work in 18.04 lts
03:56 < aex> yes is a LTS but look out the problem they have in LEnovo
03:56 < Dreaman> i use acer
03:56 < Dreaman> and work
03:56 < aex> haha i have lenovo that's why i have this issue
03:57 < aex> but when you see ubuntu is based on testing branch of debian
03:57 < aex> they make it LTS for they support their distro package like some other distro
03:58 < Dreaman> dual boot 2 os i use no problem
03:59 < rascul> aex ubuntu hasn't used debian testing for years
03:59 < rascul> every ubuntu is now based on debian sid
03:59 < quul> idle task is a task with no pid hitting do_exit
03:59 < rascul> starting with 14.04 iirc
03:59 < Dreaman> new debian i not internet no work
03:59 < Dreaman> funny
03:59 < quul> jml2: my first enemy!?
04:01 < aex> because ubuntu already create their own kernel and master it based on testing for the bleeding age work
04:02 < rascul> aex here's the reference so you can stop spreading your myth https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianImportFreeze
04:05 < aex> nice topic but i cannot run in my stable debian any ubuntu PPA, APT source, and vice-versa any suggestion how can i run PPA ubuntu in my debian 9 stable
04:05 < aex> for i trying this for so long and it's always breaking my system
04:06 < triceratux> aex: run some bonafide xubuntu 18.04 clone. itll be uptodate
04:08 < rascul> or just run debian unstable so you get patches in a timely manner
04:09 < rascul> since ubuntu is just a borked debian unstable anyway with potentially 1+ months after shipping before they fix anything
04:10 < jordan4ibanez> aex: I'm still not understanding it, since it works fine in vbox and even when edd=off and acpi=off still doesn't work I'm in the dark here
04:12 < aex> jordan4ibanez is the live cd run or live installation come up? ubuntu have a selection in a live installation to test your system if it's good for installation
04:13 < jordan4ibanez> aex: I'll be back, I'll try that
04:14 < aex> triceratux thanks for xubuntu but i'm running MX-linux not ubuntu derivatives
04:16 < triceratux> aex: mx was my absolute favourite for years. i still keep mx-17 in perfect condition. i still wind up running ubuntu & arch to be more current
04:17 < hatp> why do people not like pastebin anymore?
04:18 < triceratux> aex: im finding exton lxqt is a good debian / ubuntu hybrid, but its not for everyone http://www.extix.se/?p=393
04:19 < triceratux> hatp: they got such a bad rep they wind up being blocked on certain networks so theyre not universally available
04:20 < rascul> i've heard things like ads containing malware
04:20 < rascul> and modifying pastes
04:21 < aex> triceratux see my desktop http://i.imgur.com/d7rFmMf.png
04:22 < aex> that's why never look back again in other distro
04:22 < triceratux> aex: thatll work. not much better than mx
04:43 < Elladan> Hi! So, I have 2 processes, each with 4 running threads. One process is at nice 19, the other is at nice 0. They're both trying to run approximately all the time, but the nice 19 process is dominating the nice 0 process.
04:44 < ayecee> is that causing a problem?
04:44 < Elladan> Well, the nice 0 process is not getting as much done as it should.
04:44 < ayecee> right, but is that causing a problem?
04:45 < Elladan> That... is a problem?
04:45 < ayecee> how much should the nice 0 process get done?
04:45 < Elladan> More than the nice 19, by some arbitrary amount.
04:46 < ayecee> how might you find out?
04:46 < Elladan> top, job timings, etc.
04:46 < ayecee> you would run the nice 0 process by itself and see how much more it gets done.
04:47 < ayecee> if it doesn't get much more done, then the cpu isn't the bottleneck for it.
04:47 < Elladan> Or I could kill -STOP the nice 19 process, and watch the nice 0 process jump up to 360% CPU usage.
04:48 < ayecee> sure, also good
04:48 < Elladan> ... and then kill -CONT it, and watch it drop to 180%
04:48 < ayecee> do these processes do a lot of io?
04:49 < ayecee> i.e. reading and writing to disk
04:49 < Elladan> Neither does significant IO, but one of them is a hypervisor and hence has a complex syscall profile.
04:50 < Elladan> I did however reproduce this sort of problem a week or two ago using trivial for loop processes.
04:50 < ayecee> i see
04:51 < Dan39> what scheduler is being used? CFS?
04:52 < jml2> triceratux, what about your desktop? still got vladimir putin?
04:52 < jml2> LOL
04:52 < jml2> muscovite!
04:52 < triceratux> jml2: what happened to your deepin ? are you under surveillance yet ?
04:52 < jml2> that spanish iso is only live
04:53 < Elladan> Dan39, yes CFS on Linux 4.13 (ubuntu vendor kernel)
04:55 < jml2> triceratux, i have too much dependence on debian, wordpress, etc...
04:55 < Elladan> I'll reproduce using a trivial program that performs no syscalls, hold on.
04:55 < ghostyy> hey
04:55 < jml2> triceratux, but for other stations i'm looking possibly of checking out manjaro for its deepin desktop
04:55 < ghostyy> is there a way to get hardware-accelerated graphics inside of a windows VM on a linux guest
04:55 < ghostyy> without doing pci passthrough with a separate graphics card (which isnt being used by the host)
04:56 < jml2> ghostyy, if the hardware is supported by kvm things, .. that's called graphics passthrough
04:56 < jml2> ghostyy, it doesn't work for everything, so you need to consult kvm's docs
04:56 < sauvin> I just tried Manjaro last night. Stupid thing's KDE locked me out of the system.
04:56 < ghostyy> well, does graphics passthrough involve the guest monopolizing the graphics hardware?
04:56 < ghostyy> thats the thing i want to avoid
04:56 < ayecee> ghostyy: yes
04:56 < ghostyy> ah
04:56 < Styil> anyone here familiar with qmake
04:57 < ghostyy> is there a way to get graphics acceleration in a vm guest without that?
04:57 < triceratux> jml2: go with swagarch https://swagarch.github.io/
04:57 < jml2> ghostyy, uh, vbox guest additions and that's about it..
05:01 < Elladan> Re the multi-threaded nice fairness issue, I wrote a program which does an infinite loop on 4 threads. When just running against a niced instance of itself, the scheduler seems to work as expected.
05:02 < Elladan> However, when running against the original two processes, it dominates the hypervisor just like first niced process.
05:03 < popnfloss> im back on debian
05:03 < Elladan> When running against the other niced process (and the hypervisor), I see odd behavior like the other niced process getting spikes of higher CPU. I expect this has something to do with interactive fairness stuff?
05:04 < popnfloss> i htink im just gonna avoid fedora and all the other "bleeding edge" distros until further notice
05:04 < popnfloss> gnome and firefox dont seem to be hogging resources at all on debian stable
05:04 < popnfloss> i think it may have been firefox fucking everything up rather than gnome shell
05:04 < mwd> pthreads: i'm finding it impossible to google up how expensive it is to do a pthread create/join operation. looking for a ballpark estimate: 1ms, 1us, 1ns?
05:06 < Elladan> mwd, I'd say 1us.
05:07 < mwd> Elladan, cool -- thanks :D
05:07 < Elladan> mwd, libc maintains thread stack etc. caches, so if you do a lot of create/join ops it's somewhat cheap-ish. If you create a lot of threads at once the cost will be higher, but still not a lot.
05:07 < Elladan> mwd, this of course assumes glibc.
05:07 < sauvin> popnfloss, mind the language.
05:08 < mwd> it would be at most 2-3, to last a few dozens of us, then destroyed
05:09 < Elladan> mwd, with a short lifetime like that I'd recommend keeping them alive as worker threads waiting on a work queue, but you can run some performance tests to see if it's needed.
05:10 < mwd> Elladan, i'm trying out the strategy of tossing MPI exchanges into threads, as those spend a lot of time waiting for network, and doing some other work while waiting for the exchanges
05:12 < mwd> are worker threads, when they've finished their work, do they simply go idle or do they spin?
05:12 < mwd> -are
05:12 < Elladan> That depends on your implementation. Any good implementation would go idle.
05:13 < Elladan> It sounds like you're not very familiar with threaded programming. I'd say just give the pthread_create a shot and worry about worker threads if it's needed.
05:13 < mwd> i understand openmp & mpi, but have not /used/ pthreads and yes am learning it
05:17 < Elladan> mwd, You may be able to find some library with a nice work queue implementation and so on if you look around, rather than implement your own. On the other hand, implementing a work queue with a mutex and a condition variable might be a nice learning experience.
05:20 < mwd> hmm, i'm looking for the simplest of threading... the code is like: f1(); f2(); f3(); f4(); ---- i want to run f1() in main, then f2() in a thread while main runs f3() such that f2&f3 run in parallel, then block and abandon the thread before proceeding to f4() and onwards
05:21 < Elladan> mwd, pthread_create followed by pthread_join will do that nicely.
05:22 < mwd> ok - will pursue that
05:22 < mwd> thanks Elladan ;-)
05:22 < Elladan> mwd, np :-)
05:55 < Henry151> hi ##linux
05:56 < Henry151> i want to let somebody ssh into my server to help me fix some things, but I want to make sure they cannot view or modify anything in my /home/henry/ directory
05:57 < Henry151> something like "chmod 600 /home/henry" do the trick?
05:57 < Henry151> with maybe a recursive flag?
06:00 < Henry151> oh lordy, that will de-executablize all my executables if i do it recursively
06:00 < Henry151> phooey
06:05 < oiaohm> Henry151: problem here is privillage.   If a person has enough privillage to do system alterations they also have privillage to defeat directory security.
06:05 < oiaohm> Henry151: home directory would need to be 700 because execution bit is required on directory.
06:06 < oiaohm> Henry151: there are some cases that you need the home directory not to be fully protected like if apache is needing to show the public_html folder.
06:07 < mwd> Henry151, copy all files to a usb drive, delete them from /home/henry, restore when friend is done fixing
06:09 < mwd> side effect: you also have a recent backup of your stuff ;-)
06:13 < Tikilou> Hi guys !
06:13 < Tikilou> I have a question, i want to boot GRUB bootloader on a no PC hardware, but with X86_64 CPU. I have the possibility to boot a Bzimage and Initramfs, but there is no accessible bios, and no UEFI, do you have any idea about it ?
06:15 < sauvin> What's the hardware?
06:16 < Tikilou> A Sony Playstation 4 Pro. (Already booted Linux on it, ArchLinux, Ubuntu, Fedora...)
06:27 < Psi-Jack> Heh
06:32 < jml2> still waiting to see the news when Trump kisses butt to Kim Jong Un.   I will install RedStar when it happens.
06:33 < jml2> triceratux, talking about a light-weight DISTRIBUTION! MWEHEEHEHEHAWHAW
06:34 < jml2> it's been like a decade when sony actually permitted other operating systems on of its earlier playstations (a distro called yellowdog was supported very well on it)
06:34 < Tikilou> Yeah, and very limited, no gpu drivers...
06:34 < Tikilou> On Playstation 3.
06:35 < Tikilou> Here, Playstation 4 working with Linux, with Radeon drivers or AMD GPU Pro
06:35 < jml2> Tikilou, how long did it take to do that? was it easy?
06:35 < oiaohm> Tikilou: and when Linux developers started working on opening up playstation 3 gpu then the means to boot Linux disappeared.
06:36  * jml2 has no gaming consoles :))
06:37 < Tikilou> Yeah... Sony was terrible...
06:37 < Tikilou> Shame
06:37 < oiaohm> jml2: http://wololo.net/2018/01/01/can-now-run-linux-ps4-4-05/  there are different flaws in the PS4 firmware that allow you to run Linux.
06:37 < michaelrose> also they tried to ruin the life to the dev working on making playstation open to its owners
06:38 < Tikilou> Yeah, well... It's about hackers who have released private keys...
06:38 < Tikilou> On PS4 we don't have it
06:38 < jml2> i'm not gunna read shit thanks ...
06:38 < jml2> lol
06:38 < michaelrose> plus I still haven't forgotten that they installed malware on all their cds so that when autorun on windows computer it would hack peoples computers and install a rootkit
06:38 < Tikilou> We using a webkit hack, who permit a kernel hack, then load Bzimage and initrams in ram, and soft reboot PS4, who are rebooting on Linux
06:39 < oiaohm> Its a pitty that a true open hardware gaming console has not managed to have a market.
06:39 < Tikilou> I agree...
06:39 < michaelrose> which would hide any programs and files whose names began with a special string. Totally ignorant of possibly enabling malware that couldn't be cleaned within the running windows environment
06:40 < michaelrose> oiaohm, its called a pc
06:40 < Tikilou> Well, PC is different world than game console...
06:40 < oiaohm> michaelrose: PC is not really a gaming console.   As in something designed to be fully controlled by the controller.
06:40 < michaelrose> It even emulates all old school consoles and nintendo stuff at least up to the wii
06:40 < Tikilou> Yeah and i want to port RetroPlayer on PS4
06:41 < Tikilou> (Kodi merged with Libretro émulators cores)
06:41 < Tikilou> But Under Linux
06:41 < Tikilou> NOT under OrbisOS FreeBSD kernel
06:41 < michaelrose> oiaohm, a console is only defined by what its not. Not open. Not available for anyone to make games on without a license, not able to have a mouse and keyboard installed or usable with all games
06:42 < oiaohm> michaelrose: there have been a few open hardware gaming consoles.
06:42 < Tikilou> A console could be open.
06:42 < Tikilou> Problem is piracy.
06:42 < Tikilou> And most of game are proprietary
06:42 < Tikilou> That's the point in this world
06:42 < michaelrose> Piracy isn't the problem that is pretty much just a lie
06:42 < Tikilou> There is no AAA games open source.
06:42 < oiaohm> michaelrose: http://www.gcw-zero.com/  and others.
06:42 < Psi-Jack> Piracy is always a problem. To deny it is to deny common sense.
06:43 < Tikilou> Agree... Developpers need eat, sleep and paid bills too.
06:43 < michaelrose> its A problem but its not THE problem. A less open environment makes a lot of anti competitive things feasible
06:43 < oiaohm> michaelrose: open hardware consoles have existed but none have managed to get a large following/market share.
06:43 < Psi-Jack> Piracy also increases costs to accomodate theft.
06:45 < michaelrose> Psi-Jack, that is true of physical goods. If you still a drill I have to make enough profit to make up for the theft.  Most piracy isn't exactly equivilent to lost sales and unlike a physical good you aren't out the money you paid for it
06:45 < Tikilou> Full open hardware consoles ? Where ? Never seen it, always something proprietary, especially around the GPU -_-
06:45 < Psi-Jack> michaelrose: That is true of /any/ goods.
06:45 < Tikilou> Even the raspberry PI have proprietary parts.
06:46 < michaelrose> Psi-Jack, thats only true of actual real goods not IP. Note I'm not saying you should go pirate just saying that treating the situation as equvilent is incorrect
06:46 < Psi-Jack> michaelrose: And I'm disagreeing with you 100%.
06:46 < Psi-Jack> About it not being the same. It is.
06:47 < Tikilou> Point is, last console with very simple piracy (just burn a disc) have failed ... Who remember dreamcast ? Piracy have killed her.
06:47 < Tikilou> And many licences games too.
06:47 < michaelrose> If you have 10 drills bought for 200 and sold for 250. Your profit is 500. if you lose one that you paid 200 for you have to charge another $20 per drill to earn the same money
06:47 < michaelrose> Tikilou, dreamcast was in no universe killed by piracy
06:48 < Tikilou> yeah, but it's contribute, many...
06:48 < Tikilou> editors don't want a easy piracy system.
06:48 < jml2> michaelrose, 250 what, pennies?
06:48 < Tikilou> And without editors, you don't have game on your console.
06:49 < michaelrose> Psi-Jack, if you have a piece of IP and sell 10 units and someone pirates it you have the same profits you don't have to make up for the cost of goods sold for the physical item lost
06:49 < sauvin> michaelrose, that's a simplistic and naive perspective.
06:49 < Psi-Jack> ^
06:49 < Tikilou> Anyway, Steam is running and working on PS4, i've played and tested somes games...
06:49 < michaelrose> The calculation for the foregone sales is also very difficult to determine. If you made piracy impossible logically you would increase sales SOME but how much?
06:50 < Tikilou> So an open hardware like PS4 with Steam and GOG, why not ?
06:50 < jml2> michaelrose, it's much easier to be a pimp with that form of calculation XD
06:50 < sauvin> The fact that it's difficult to determine in no way implies it doesn't exist.
06:50 < jml2> tehehehe
06:51 < Psi-Jack> If Adobe sold Photoshop for $500, and 1,000,000 million copies were stolen. That's ... A huge amount of loss.
06:51 < michaelrose> sauvin, but treating it the same is highly illogical. Filling up an 30G ipod back in the day with downloaded tunes doesn't imply that the music industry lost 20k in music sales
06:51 < oiaohm> michaelrose: remember the cost to make something in software can be divide by the number of people who buy it.   If stuff is too illegally copied cost of production does not get recovered.
06:51 < oiaohm> michaelrose: even in open software development most of it is not done for free.
06:51 < oiaohm> Most of a game is art work not application source code when you break down costs.
06:51 < michaelrose> the loss is the sum of what you would have made in an optimal environment with zero piracy
06:52 < Tikilou> Remember games are non essential parts of our lifes too... Many people gonna piracy and keep money, even if they can paid, because they have choice and others priority.
06:52 < jml2> michaelrose, piracy will always exists
06:52 < michaelrose> For the record I support using open source software instead of pirating proprietary software
06:53 < jml2> michaelrose, I support free software
06:53 < Tikilou> When was released the last AAA production in open source ? Never.
06:53 < Psi-Jack> Free software is good, indeed. But there /is/ loss in stolen software.
06:53 < Tikilou> Even littles games in 2D
06:53 < michaelrose> I just disagree that the calculation is as simple, disagree that consoles are closed to prevent piracy, disagree that consoles must be closed to prevent piracy, think selling devices that lock out the owner of said device ought to be illigal
06:54 < michaelrose> Psi-Jack, I do not disagree
06:54 < jml2> michaelrose, opensource is not free software --> see here https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
06:54 < Tikilou> I think consoles should purpose a way for launch our own code like we want yes, but i understand why devs want protect them work.
06:55 < Tikilou> OtherOS on Playstation 3 was a half good answer...
06:55 < michaelrose> Tikilou, they are mostly terrible people. Sony and MS are tscum
06:55 < michaelrose> scum
06:55 < Psi-Jack> Finally! To fully clean up my gitea repositories of their binary blobs that had previously been committed, I actually had to go into the server, into the bare repositories, and run git gc manually.
06:56 < notmike> Please no bashing M$ here
06:56 < michaelrose> notmike, why not?
06:56 < Psi-Jack> Changing the subject to something more on-topic. :>
06:56 < Psi-Jack> *hinthint*
06:56 < michaelrose> if the answer is the discussion is tired and the ground much trod I'm ok with that
06:56 < Psi-Jack> notmike: Then don't bash them with that M$ as well. :p
06:57 < Psi-Jack> Hypocrite. heh
06:57 < michaelrose> hah
06:57 < Tikilou> If your are curious, this is how i boot Linux on PS4
06:57 < Tikilou> https://youtu.be/yNCDEqMOzc8?t=7m1s
06:58 < uplime> i tried to do that with my ps2 once
06:58 < uplime> it didn't go so well
06:58 < michaelrose> I would only support that if they were selling ps4 at a loss so the purchase actually cost them money
06:58 < Psi-Jack> michaelrose: Please cease.
06:59 < Tikilou> Linux on PS2 was terrible
06:59 < michaelrose> fin#e
06:59 < Psi-Jack> Thank you.
06:59 < oiaohm> Beside there are two reason why closed source consoles are locked.  1 is illegal copying.  The other execuse is to prevent modification forms of cheating.
06:59 < Tikilou> But on PS4 we have a standard x64 CPU
07:00 < Tikilou> it's much more easy for us
07:00 < michaelrose> I really thought there would be more going on as far as emulating ps4 xboxone on standard computers by now
07:00 < Psi-Jack> Yes.. But why would you get a PS4.. To put Linux on it? ;)
07:00 < oiaohm> We are starting to get to a point with IMA and other things that an open source system can be audited.
07:00 < notmike> Actually putting Linux on PlayStation is a common hack
07:00 < michaelrose> or microsoft would do something like announce that windows computers could play all xbox games
07:01 < Tikilou> Psi-Jack: Yes. Because it's cheap, if your compare price and hardware, and a PC.
07:01 < Psi-Jack> michaelrose: Do you have any Linux subjects to speak up about?
07:01 < Tikilou> And i like play with hacks
07:01 < Tikilou> Boot and promote Linux on hacked Ps4 is fun.
07:02 < Tikilou> That's a way to convince people who are normally never tried to using it to test.
07:02 < michaelrose> Psi-Jack, I'm going to try installing bedrock linux in a bit seems really neat
07:02 < michaelrose> https://bedrocklinux.org/
07:03 < Psi-Jack> Generic. Likely minimal team involved, if any team. Good luck. :)
07:03 < Tikilou> Because Linux is the only third party OS we can boot on PS4, and using it like a computy. Cheap price.
07:03 < Tikilou> 350€ for a Computer with AMD RX 470
07:03 < Tikilou> is good
07:03 < michaelrose> Does linux get full access to the computers gpu?
07:04 < Tikilou> Yes.
07:04 < michaelrose> I had thought that was a problem with otheros in the prior generation
07:04 < Tikilou> This is not OtherOS, it's an hacked full hardware access
07:04 < Tikilou> When your are outside the proprietary FreeBSD system of Sony, there is no DRM.
07:04 < Tikilou> Linux can use hardware without problem
07:05 < michaelrose> Nice its not bad hardware for the money
07:05 < michaelrose> even without gaming its a useful media center
07:06 < Tikilou> Exactly, we still have somes work to do, but now GPU work (not fully, vulkan missing) and wifi/bluetooth work.
07:06 < Tikilou> Still missing sound HDMI output.
07:06 < Tikilou> But USB or bluetooth work
07:06 < notmike> It has a 470!?
07:06 < Tikilou> It's like a 470 on PS4 Pro.
07:06 < notmike> Ah, on the pro
07:06 < Tikilou> PS4 have a Custom APU from AMD.
07:06 < notmike> Still, you can oc that and mine with it
07:07 < Tikilou> Possible yes, with good drivers, and Vulkan/OpenCL
07:07 < Psi-Jack> Hmmm
07:07 < Tikilou> but it need AMD GPU Pro drivers for that
07:07 < Psi-Jack> Bedrock Linux does actually sound a little... interesting.
07:07 < Tikilou> and we using Free drivers actullly and trying to improve them
07:07 < nojeffrey> Running Manjaro/KDE on 4.14-39 kernel, half the time when I cut or copy, and go to paste, nothing pastes, but cut does remove the text, ctrl-z will uncut, then I can try cut and paste again,  where would I even begin to troubleshoot this?
07:08 < michaelrose> nojeffrey, do you close the app that you were pasting from?
07:08 < nojeffrey> no, just before I was in jupyter notebook/chrome, so same window to same window
07:09 < michaelrose> odd
07:09 < michaelrose> does the same problem happen outside of chrome?
07:10 < Tikilou> Psi-Jack:  actually only PS4 with 4.55 firmware maximum could be exploited and run payloads, but a hack will be delivered soon for 5.05 firmware (kernel exploit), the dev of Linux load telling me he gonna purpose his payload too.
07:10 < nojeffrey> I thought it did, but in last few minutes, I've been cutting/ pasting in Kate maybe 50 times, and I cant reproduce it, so it might be Crhome
07:10 < Tikilou> So it's not so difficult
07:11 < Tikilou> to found a PS4 with 5.05 kernel
07:11 < Psi-Jack> Tikilou: Keep in mind, I don't really care. Afterall, I asked why you'd get a PS4 to put Linux on it. Should've hinted that I'm not interested...
07:11 < nojeffrey> I'll disable all extensions and try again
07:11 < Tikilou> https://twitter.com/SpecterDev/status/994820280991264768
07:11 < Tikilou> Ah okay
07:11 < Tikilou> Well, i want a platform with console/game/homebrews togethers.
07:11 < kremator> roses are red
07:12 < kremator> violets are blue
07:12 < Tikilou> The ultimate media center
07:12 < kremator> but your init system
07:12 < kremator> is systemd too!
07:12 < Tikilou> PC and console together
07:12 < Tikilou> and KODI
07:12 < Tikilou> and RetroArch
07:13 < nojeffrey> disabled all extensions, and restarted Chrome(there was a pending update waiting to restart), 4th cut/paste nothing pasted
07:13 < michaelrose> post pictures of sega and nintendo games running in split screen with the ps4 in the scene
07:14 < michaelrose> nojeffrey, kind of sounds like a chrome issue in any case
07:15 < nojeffrey> Maybe it's Juypter Notebook
07:15 < nojeffrey> Could be, but I've been seeing this issue for the last ~2 months
07:16 < Psi-Jack> michaelrose: Yeah. I might have to take a look at bedrock linux myself sometime. The installation is not something to sneeze at though. LOL
07:20 < Psi-Jack> Being able to use multiple distributions as simply stratum's has... potential.
07:23 < Jonno_FTW> should I build llvm or clang first?
07:27 < Henry151> i was talking to my dad today about linux
07:27 < Henry151> he was talking to me about the mechanical work he's been doing on his VW bus, and it made me think of this great analogy for him
07:29 < Henry151> I said, "Imagine you've got a huge machine shop, capable of fabricating every single component of your entire VW bus, and you've got directions for how to use each of the fabrication machines in the shop, and you've got a service manual that details exactly how to assemble the entire bus from all the pieces."
07:32 < Henry151> "So I'm trying to build this bus, but I keep forgetting which letters in the alphabet make which sounds, so when I go to read the service manual and it says 'insert the pushrod from the left side of the clutch basket,' not only do I have to look up what a pushrod is and where the clutch basket is, but I also have to pop into the IRC chat and say, 'hey guys, what sound does the letter 'P' make? I'm trying
07:32 < Henry151> to read this word, it's spelled p-u-s-h-r-o-d, any ideas what it might be?'
07:33 < Henry151> "oh my real goal is to get to california, by the way."
07:34 < Henry151> meanwhile I will need to learn how to operate the lathe just to manufacture the pushrod.
07:34 < ayecee> "ah. no one uses pushrods anymore. could you update to a more recent vw bus?
07:34 < Henry151> this is my life.
07:35 < Henry151> much of the linux-learning i've done was while trying to build an e-commerce website for a motorcycle shop, I was trying to find a way to automate importing products from a catalog of some 500,000 different motorcycle-related things in to our website
07:36 < Henry151> so yeah, trying to get to california, but first have to learn to read, so that i can learn to use the machinery to fabricate the parts, so i can assemble the bus and hopefully figure out how to drive
07:36 < Henry151> nowadays i am trying to build a money-making machine
07:36 < ayecee> car analogies just get sillier the deeper they go
07:37 < Henry151> this is the project to import products from a powersports catalog to my website: https://github.com/151henry151/powersports-parts-to-bigcommerce (but I had a lot of help on that)
07:39 < ayecee> nice
07:39 < Henry151> and this is my latest creation: https://github.com/151henry151/workspace-clone-utility with which I've set up three servers, two of which are trading real money and the third one is just crunching away with a genetic algorithm trying to find better parameters for the tradebots
07:39 < Henry151> my latest victory was figuring out how to serve php through nginx.
07:41 < Henry151> to take the crazy car analogies further, I would say I'm trying to manufacture a car to race in the paris-dakar rally and hoping to win on my first try in the car i built myself.
07:42 < Henry151> meanwhile i would have just looked up "internal combustion engine" on wikipedia and gone "ooooh i see, that's what makes these things move!"
07:43 < sauvin> Sure. You put gas in the engine, set a match to it, the engine farts and you go places.
07:43 < uplime> science can't explain that
07:44 < Henry151> then I'll get stuck for a few weeks trying to decide if I want to go diesel or gasoline
07:44 < Jonno_FTW> Henry151: you know docker exists right?
07:44 < Henry151> or figuring out which way to move the stick to spray the windshield-washer fluid
07:45 < Henry151> Jonno_FTW: yeah, I read about it right after i finished making that god-awful bash script
07:45 < Henry151> i still haven't played with it yet
07:45 < Jonno_FTW> usually you research things BEFORE you write new code
07:45 < ayecee> or figuring out the site that is talking about how to refill blinker fluid may not be as helpful as you hoped
07:45 < Jonno_FTW> save you time and money reinventinfg the wheel
07:45 < Henry151> well I was mostly reading about driving techniques
07:46 < Jonno_FTW> also, if you want good model parameters, check out hyperopt
07:46 < Henry151> getting ahead of the wagon or something, I've spent the last several weeks reading on investopedia trying to comprehend technical analysis
07:46 < Henry151> hyperopt?
07:46 < Jonno_FTW> a model for optimising function parameters
07:46 < jml2> Henry151, I can also fart on people and that makes them move too
07:47 < Henry151> oh boy
07:47 < Jonno_FTW> might be difficult in a currently running market, but if you have historical data it might work
07:47 < Henry151> i have loads of historical data
07:47 < Jonno_FTW> there's also hyperas that makes it a bit easier
07:47 < Henry151> i've been using https://github.com/gekkowarez/gekkoga
07:48 < Jonno_FTW> yeah but then you're using node
07:50 < Jonno_FTW> Henry151: have you made any profit off your algorithmic trading?
07:52 < Jonno_FTW> I always figure you're up against the geniuses being paid 500k/yr at large hedge funds to write machine code that does it all
07:53 < Jonno_FTW> also, if you're doing forex, you can just setup an algorithm that checks for arbitrage suing bellman ford algorithm
07:54 < TheWild> hello
07:54 < Jonno_FTW> world
07:55 < TheWild> hello
07:55 < Henry151> "but then you're using electronic ignition"
07:55 < Tikilou> i have another question. Actually we booting up a Linux kernel from a FreeBSD custom Kernel. It's any way possible to boot a Linux Kernel from a Linux Kernel ?
07:55  * jml2 reads "Christmas on Jane Street: A True Story"
07:55 < Henry151> oh i was scrolled up
07:55 < Henry151> my dad wrote that :)
07:55 < TheWild> my USB stick hasn't been connected to anything for about a year. Do you think my data are still there?
07:56 < Henry151> he's an interesting character. billyromp.org
07:56 < Jonno_FTW> TheWild: there's only one way to find out, and the answer is probably yes
07:56 < jml2> Henry151, talking to me?
07:56 < jml2> Henry151, no my dad wrote that
07:56 < jml2> Henry151, nice try :)
07:56 < Henry151> now i'm just puzzled.
07:56 < jml2> Henry151, :)
07:56 < Henry151> I'm Henry Romp, https://romp.pw
07:57 < Henry151> my dad definitely wrote that. :P
07:57 < jml2> Henry151, nope
07:57 < jml2> Henry151, my mommy wrote that
07:57 < jml2> Henry151, actually my nanny wrote that
07:58 < TheWild> okay, now for real question. my external HDD is in operation (the computer is calculating precious checksums). It's not really noisy, but the silent head movement can be heard anyway. From time to time I take a look at SMART stats. Question is, why "smartctl -x /dev/sdd" actually makes the head move?
07:59 < Triffid_Hunter> Tikilou: like kexec? or kvm?
07:59 < Tikilou> No no, natively.
07:59 < Triffid_Hunter> Tikilou: both are linux native features
07:59 < jml2> what a cheap website just <p> tags and that's it
07:59 < jml2> lol
08:00 < jml2> man, this is not the 1990's.
08:00 < Tikilou> Ah, yeah, maybe it's kexec, i believe that's what is used on PS4 from BSD kernel
08:00 < Jonno_FTW> Henry151: you need a new page
08:00 < Henry151> I like my ugly page
08:00 < Henry151> it's just my type of ugly
08:00 < Jonno_FTW> I don't
08:00 < Jonno_FTW> it looks very mid 90's
08:00 < Henry151> i've made prettier sites
08:01 < Henry151> www.rompfamilychristmastrees.com
08:01 < Jonno_FTW> like, yuou can use a canned bootstrap page in like 5 minutes
08:01 < Henry151> sure
08:01 < Henry151> but i like the way that one looks
08:01 < Jonno_FTW> www.rompfamilychristmastrees.com refused to connect.
08:01 < Jonno_FTW> lol
08:02 < Henry151> Jonno_FTW: really? loads in my browser
08:02 < Henry151> darn
08:02 < Henry151> any idea why?
08:03 < uplime> loads fine here
08:03 < jml2> Henry151, so when you gonna write your book stupid?
08:03 < Henry151> i'm writing a trading strategy :D
08:03 < Henry151> see also rompfamily.com
08:03 < Jonno_FTW> doesn't load with https
08:03 < Henry151> while you're lookin at my stuff
08:04 < Henry151> oh i can fix that
08:04 < jml2> church doesn't need bitcoin, people are gullible enough to be televangelist... those guys are multi-millionaires
08:04 < Henry151> i just fixed https on romp.pw yesterday
08:04 < Henry151> churchofbitcoin.org is my church
08:04 < Henry151> we're f'real
08:05 < jml2> if you can scream and preach at the same then you can start a televangelical tv program
08:05 < jml2> and make money without bitcoin
08:06  * jml2 give free tips --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me2H7Ja93Wg
08:06 < jml2> Henry151, that dude doesn't use bitcoins, he's known as the farting preacher
08:06 < jml2> Henry151, and... he can be your teacher! :Ppp
08:06 < jml2> LOL
08:08 < Henry151> this guy named Chapen (or Chapin? don't know how to spell it) introduced me to linux when i was 12
08:08 < Henry151> i have always wondered if maybe he is here in ##linux all along
08:08 < pingfloyd> jml2: you imply that you need bitcoin to make money otherwise
08:09 < jml2> gotta timeout
08:09 < pingfloyd> I know a guy who still thinks he's going to get rich with bitcoin
08:10 < Prof_Birch> You don't think people can get rich with crypto? or just bitcoin
08:10 < pingfloyd> some will
08:10 < pingfloyd> but most won't
08:10 < pingfloyd> it's like the Amway of the newer millenium
08:11 < Henry151> it's the only real money.
08:11 < pingfloyd> money isn't real
08:11 < pingfloyd> including it
08:11 < hexnewbie> Get rich with crypto? Well, for starters they'll have to get what the word means right.
08:11 < pingfloyd> it's all based on a shared delusion of  assigning value to something arbitrary
08:11 < Prof_Birch> Well, yeah. Of course money isn't real
08:11 < Prof_Birch> But that's still the foundation of our economy
08:11 < Henry151> i mean bitcoin lifted me above the poverty line and has held me up there for several years now..
08:11 < Prof_Birch> I mean, technically our programs aren't real
08:12 < Prof_Birch> They're just electrical signals and switches
08:12 < hexnewbie> real ≠ tangible
08:12 < Prof_Birch> but yet, here we are talking across the world
08:12 < sauvin> This, precisely, is why I hate trying to explain programs or programming to folks.
08:12 < sauvin> They're not real, and programming means juggling things you can't touch, see, hear, taste or smell.
08:13 < pingfloyd> bitcoin is an even more out of control bubble than conventional currencies
08:13 < Prof_Birch> I don't think so at all. It seems more stable to me, once we can pick one (or a few) standard ones
08:14 < Henry151> bitcoin is one of my favorite examples of how somebody can hit the keys on their keyboard in a particular order and create something that has huge impact in the tangible world
08:14 < Prof_Birch> Right? It's fascinating
08:15 < [R]> henry151: you mean like writing a kernel?
08:15 < [R]> lol
08:15 < Prof_Birch> I mean, the concept of a scarce digital resource in itself is fascinating
08:15 < pingfloyd> Henry151: that's the same principle as any currency
08:15 < pingfloyd> Henry151: numbers on a screen backed by whatever trust is in it.
08:15 < Henry151> [R]: I meant like writing the original bitcoin-qt source code :)
08:15 < pingfloyd> nobody uses cash anymore
08:16 < Henry151> "fiat" in the purest form -- "let there be bitcoin" he said, and there was
08:16 < Prof_Birch> That's not entirely true. Theoretically you could use the crypto scheme to operate a physical lock, which holds tangible resources, though I get that it's a stretch
08:16 < Henry151> I welcome you all to the church of bitcoin :)
08:16 < Prof_Birch> *crypto scheme = blockchain
08:16 < brillenfux> hi, what is a good read to point people to about the width of the spectrum of devices Linux is used on these days? not too technical but possibly showing the synergies etc.
08:16 < Henry151> we're remodeling the website right now but it should be back operational within a few days.
08:16  * sauvin is chekcking out sabayon
08:17 < RayTracer> pingfloyd: a lot of people I see pay cash, so don't assume your statement is true
08:17 < pingfloyd> RayTracer: it's a figure of speech
08:17 < Henry151> RayTracer: I did all cash for a long while, hadn't a credit card or a checking account
08:17 < pingfloyd> RayTracer: all currency in the US is backed by debt
08:17 < Henry151> then bitcoin for all internet-purchases and cash for in-person for a long long while
08:17 < pingfloyd> that debt cements the "trust"
08:17 < Prof_Birch> I would say US currency is less stable than crypto in concept of trust
08:17 < Henry151> now I've had the same $20 bill in my wallet for 6 months...
08:18 < Prof_Birch> Though crypto is volatile, the decentralized ledger system makes more sense
08:18 < Henry151> here's something I wrote for my friend Rob about "what backs bitcoin" a long while ago: http://churchofbitcoin.blogspot.com/2017/08/backing-bitcoin.html
08:19 < Henry151> (by long while ago, i mean 2013, not 08-2017, that's just when i uploaded it to that blog)
08:19 < Henry151> what backs the USD?
08:19 < Henry151> the US military, of course.
08:19 < Prof_Birch> Hey! We're just like the Yuan
08:20 < Henry151> I have more faith in cryptography and math than I have in the US military
08:20 < Prof_Birch> Crypto at least allows for a consensus of the people
08:20 < pingfloyd> Henry151: way to set the bar
08:20 < pingfloyd> Henry151: need something good to compare against
08:20 < Henry151> yes, i think the most exciting ramifactions of "crypto" are the possibilities for true democracy to be implemented someday in the future
08:21 < Henry151> not that mob rule is all that great
08:21 < Prof_Birch> I agree, in fact mob rule can be terrible
08:21 < Prof_Birch> that's why education is crucial
08:21 < Prof_Birch> I don't really see how the digital age wouldn't end in either true democracy or dystopia
08:21 < pingfloyd> education won't solve it all though, because you can't fix stupid.
08:21 < Prof_Birch> I don't agree with that mentality
08:22 < Henry151> most of what masquerades as education these days is really just indoctrination anyway.
08:22 < pingfloyd> education will make sure the reasonable intelligent come closer to their potential
08:22 < Prof_Birch> Again, I don't disagree. But the net is a powerful resource for those that want to learn
08:22 < pingfloyd> there's always going to be chizlers, idiots, and criminals no matter what happens
08:23 < Prof_Birch> for sure
08:23 < pingfloyd> best you can hope for is to curb that
08:23 < pingfloyd> like a good education system will help save a lot of intelligent people from a life of crime
08:23 < Prof_Birch> I think an educated 90% can help stave off the criminal 10%
08:23 < Prof_Birch> or however those numbers are
08:24 < Henry151> http://merkle.com/papers/DAOdemocracyDraft.pdf
08:24 < Henry151> there's some interesting reading.
08:24 < pingfloyd> generally as you have more poverty, you have more crime
08:24 < pingfloyd> many crimes are acts of desperation
08:24 < Prof_Birch> I agree
08:24 < Henry151> you know the whole "give a man a gun, he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, he can rob the whole world"?
08:25 < pingfloyd> haha
08:25 < Prof_Birch> well, crypto will help with that one
08:25 < pingfloyd> that's a good saying
08:25 < Prof_Birch> no man will have a bank
08:25 < Henry151> so. everybody should be able to have a gun, and everybody should be able to be their own bank.
08:25 < Triffid_Hunter> sauvin: that's a fork of gentoo right?
08:25 < alpha_> Hello @all...is there anyway we can watch change in file content....For eg. I do `echo "abc">testfile` ....and start watching....it does neglect if I again do `echo "abc">testfile` /......but take if I do `echo "xyz"<>testfile`
08:25 < alpha_> * <> = >>
08:25 < pingfloyd> Henry151: in an ideal world
08:25 < Henry151> I have been all debian all my linux life, but i just started looking at freebsd with interest
08:25 < sauvin> Triffid_Hunter, yeah. I think it's to gentoo what ubuntu is to debian.
08:25 < Triffid_Hunter> alpha_: tail -F ?
08:26 < Henry151> mostly because of that tarsnap guy's blog
08:26 < pingfloyd> Henry151: you can never rule out the average idiocy factor out of anything.
08:26 < alpha_> but that can't get change in file content I think Triffid_Hunter
08:26 < Prof_Birch> Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity
08:26 < Triffid_Hunter> alpha_: that literally spits out changes in the contents
08:26 < sauvin> Henry151, I used freebsd some years ago and liked it better than I did linux at the time because it was faster an a lot more solid. I don't think that's true any more.
08:27 < Triffid_Hunter> alpha_: it's mostly designed for following appended lines but will also notify if the file is replaced
08:27 < alpha_> But I don't want trigger if the file content is same even if its modified(even creation time)
08:27 < [R]> sauvin: solid like a turd?
08:27 < [R]> BAZINGA
08:27 < Triffid_Hunter> alpha_: then hash check when tail -F spits something out :P
08:27 < alpha_> was looking for https://github.com/rvoicilas/inotify-tools/wiki but seems its still not for my fit
08:28 < Triffid_Hunter> alpha_: well inotify is a system library for C programs, not shell scripts :P
08:28 < alpha_> :)
08:29 < pingfloyd> [R]: what if they have diarrhea?
08:29 < [R]> pingfloyd: lol
08:30 < alpha_> hash seems an option Triffid_Hunter
08:30 < pingfloyd> maybe FreeBSD is solid like constipation?
08:30 < pingfloyd> that's pretty damn solid!
08:31 < pingfloyd> anyway, BSD seems to be about decade behind linux
08:31 < pingfloyd> okay, half to full decade
08:31 < pingfloyd> somewhere in there
08:31 < Triffid_Hunter> alpha_: and tail -F is a great way to receive an event when the file contents change ;)
08:32 < pingfloyd> it's hard to be content with BSDs slow development when you're used to Linux's rapid pace
08:32 < [R]> zoom zoom
08:32 < alpha_> hmmm...anyway i can trigger based on tail -F ? Triffid_Hunter
08:32 < Triffid_Hunter> alpha_: sure, pipe it to while read :P
08:32 < pingfloyd> I suppose it is on par with Slackware
08:33 < pingfloyd> bazinga!
08:34 < [R]> atleast bsd is stilll releveant
08:34 < [R]> slackware hasn't been releveant for like 20 years
08:34 < pingfloyd> haha
08:34 < pingfloyd> yeah, BSD has dependency management
08:34 < Prof_Birch> I waiting to see what's up with Google Fuchsia. They say it'll be based on the Zircon kernel instead of Linux
08:35 < pingfloyd> but it's google
08:35 < [R]> oh man, i know a canadian
08:35 < Prof_Birch> Sounds useless to me, although there's speculation since its a real time kernel itll be for AR devices
08:35 < [R]> he coudln't say 'fuchsia'
08:35 < pingfloyd> that's enough to say
08:35 < pingfloyd> screw it
08:35 < pingfloyd> I'm sure it will be a big deal amongst hipsters when it releases at first though
08:36 < Prof_Birch> It's supposed to be "an OS for all devices" but I generally am against the idea of a one size fits all OS
08:36 < Prof_Birch> At least program wise
08:36 < pingfloyd> "OMG! I got Google Fuchscia bro!"
08:36 < [R]> one os to rule them all
08:36 < Prof_Birch> We already have Linux'
08:37 < pingfloyd> yeah, I think the one os for all devices mentality is pretty dumb
08:37 < Prof_Birch> Can't help it that end users are to dull to realize its here, its free, and its better
08:37 < pingfloyd> both unity and windows 8 proved thi
08:37 < pingfloyd> this
08:37 < Triffid_Hunter> alpha_: FILE=test2; tail -F $FILE 2>/dev/null | ( while read; do NEWHASH=$(md5sum $FILE | cut -d\  -f1); if [ "$HASH" != "$NEWHASH" ]; then echo "File changed!"; HASH=$NEWHASH; fi; done; )
08:37 < Triffid_Hunter> ;)
08:37 < Prof_Birch> I think it could work in theory, OS wise. The mistake is assuming that because you have an OS that will work on them all, that your apps will work properly in all form factors as well
08:37 < pingfloyd> I'm find with linux on all devices though, but UI need to be geared for the device.
08:37 < Prof_Birch> I am still hopeful about plasma mobile
08:38 < pingfloyd> *fine
08:38 < Prof_Birch> Oh for sure, that's the trouble though isn't it
08:38 < pingfloyd> it is
08:38 < Prof_Birch> Personally, thats why I am working with my Android/Linux hybrid
08:38 < Prof_Birch> Again, still hopeful about plasma mobile though
08:39 < pingfloyd> and such and a clear and obvious issue and how to fix it.  So it give it a decade or two for the status quo to rethink it.
08:39 < alpha_> thanks :)
08:39 < Prof_Birch> Something will come about, as mobile gets more powerful. The thing about abandoning Linux though, is that it still has soooooo many useful legacy programs, there's no reason to ditch it
08:40 < Prof_Birch> Reminds me of the XKCD, it really just makes a competing "standard"
08:40 < Prof_Birch> Innovation won'
08:40 < Prof_Birch> *won't hurt though, I am sure some good ideas will come of it
08:40 < MrElendig> Prof_Birch: eh, android apps doesn't depend on linux generally
08:40 < MrElendig> google could swap out the kernel if they want to
08:40 < pingfloyd> well, linux will just keep improving and keeping up
08:40 < Prof_Birch> MrElendig: No, they don't at all. But it does use the Linux kernel, which is super useful
08:40 < pingfloyd> like it always has done
08:41 < Prof_Birch> MrElendig: It lets me host both full systems side by side.
08:42 < pingfloyd> the userland of Android is very different
08:42 < Prof_Birch> Yes, totally different
08:42 < pingfloyd> or as Android calls it, "runtime environment"
08:42 < Prof_Birch> But I think thats a strength, not a weakness
08:43 < pingfloyd> e.g., ART and Dalvik
08:43 < Prof_Birch> If you could break down some of the java components to pipe to a Linux shell you could have more interoperability (IMHO), but you don't compromise a system wholly developed for the mobile paradigm
08:43 < pingfloyd> makes me think of Dalek
08:43 < pingfloyd> Daleks probably have majority shares of google
08:45 < Prof_Birch> And if you can keep the Android subsystem running, and just render an app in a screen on Linux, you could use Apps on desktops
08:45 < Prof_Birch> Similar to chrome, minus the browser
08:47 < pingfloyd> but why settle for the android subsystem on your desktop?
08:47 < Prof_Birch> I mean, settle as opposed to?
08:47 < pingfloyd> you've got the entire userland designed for linux available to you
08:47 < Prof_Birch> Oh, yes. Absolutely
08:48 < pingfloyd> that's like a huge unnecessary downgrade
08:48 < Prof_Birch> But In the concept of "freedom", I figure if I am putting Linux on an Android device, to run Linux programs, I should also let Linux run Android programs
08:48 < Prof_Birch> "Linux" run "Android"
08:48 < Prof_Birch> mostly just allow the user to pop into an app without switching out of X into SurfaceFlinger
08:49 < Prof_Birch> Such as allowing them to text from the desktop
08:51 < Prof_Birch> This means that when a user attaches an HDMI cable, I can shoot off a script to shutdown Surfaceflinger and launch X, and when it's disconnected I can do the opposite. Allows for a comprehensive all in one device, without assuming the paradigm will be the same across all use cases
08:51 < pingfloyd> it's funny how they didn't get it with unity and windows 8.  On a tablet/phone you want the exact opposite in UI that you want on desktop/laptop.  The less typing for interface the better for the former, and the more of it the better for the latter.
08:52  * sauvin is deciding that playing games in a VM ain't a great idea
08:52 < Prof_Birch> sauvin: it can work better than you think, provided you have two graphics cards
08:53 < sauvin> I don't, though.
08:53 < Prof_Birch> Well there's that
08:53 < pingfloyd> yeah, but it introduces extra layer of hardware emulation which comes at a cost
08:53 < sauvin> Doesn't matter, it was just something to try. Looks like Sabayon is gonna be a keeper.
08:54 < sklv> he means GPU passthrough where only the CPU is emulated
08:54 < Prof_Birch> With certain VMs you can give them direct hardware access, such as an IOMMU passthrough to a graphics card. This means you're just adding a thin layer to the CPU
08:54 < Prof_Birch> oh, there you go
08:54 < pingfloyd> sklv: I know
08:54 < pingfloyd> sklv: but no emulation (native) will always be better
08:54 < Prof_Birch> and there's not much emulation that needs to be overlapped on comparable host/guest processors. It will become essentially a shim
08:54 < Prof_Birch> Actually, some systems have seen performance increases on that kind of emulated setup
08:54 < sklv> of course, but at the same time, as most intensive games are GPU limited, some additional CPU limitation results in almost zero lower performance
08:55 < Prof_Birch> Its magic to me though
08:55 < wadadli> ls
08:56 < pingfloyd> sklv: it's ironic we don't use more of the abundant CPU cycles for something decent AI in games.
08:56 < pingfloyd> *something like
08:56 < Prof_Birch> AI works better on GPUs
08:56 < pingfloyd> and better physics etc.
08:57 < Prof_Birch> And physics are(is?) calculated in GPUs as well
08:57 < pingfloyd> but we're still fixated on doom 2018
09:05 < Prof_Birch> Lxde vs Kde resource wise
09:10 < clarjon1> Prof_Birch: KDE uses ton more resources.
09:10 < clarjon1> but it also does a lot more for the user
09:11 < k4r78y> should just use a tilling window manager
09:11 < clarjon1> handling mounting, multiple monitors being plugged in....
09:11 < clarjon1> I can use another window manager, sure, but idk it just feels more polished than lxde
09:11 < Prof_Birch> I'm looking for a showpiece, essentially, but I am dealing with 4GB RAM
09:11 < clarjon1> Devs put in decent effort to make gtk look good in kde
09:11 < clarjon1> a lot nicer effort than the other way around, i find, heh.
09:12 < Prof_Birch> octocore processor, and people that have only ever seen windows and mac
09:13 < Prof_Birch> I love gnomes simplicity, but it's not really open to customization
09:14 < Prof_Birch> I just have my KDE set up to work like GNOME
09:14 < Prof_Birch> but I am thinking about a tiling windows manager
09:14 < MrElendig> 8 core cpu but only 4gb of ram?
09:14 < Prof_Birch> Cause I only ever tile anyway
09:14 < MrElendig> that is....strange....
09:14 < Prof_Birch> It's a mobile device
09:14 < MrElendig> oh, cruddy arm
09:14 < Prof_Birch> big.LITTLE architecture
09:14 < MrElendig> not really a octacore then :p
09:14 < Prof_Birch> 16 threads, so there's that
09:15 < MrElendig> 4 being to slow to use for anything much :p
09:15 < Prof_Birch> Yes, but that's what I am going to push the Android subsystem to while I am using Linux
09:16 < Prof_Birch> And android is totally happy with 512 MB RAM, particularly since it's not handling the graphics display
09:16 < Prof_Birch> That'll let me keep the telecom features up and running
09:16 < Prof_Birch> Plus the snapdragon 835 high speed processors match a modern pentium. It's not much, but it's enough
09:17 < Prof_Birch> Enough to make a competent system for an end user
09:18 < Disconsented> Match it doing what?
09:18 < Prof_Birch> Web browsing, multitasking
09:18 < Prof_Birch> Think chromebook
09:19 < Disconsented> So subjectivley it matches it
09:19 < xcm> i would like to write a script that monitors file deletions. inotify doesn't seem to be capable of detecting deletions of files that were not there when it was started. is there any other technique i can use that doesn't suffer from race conditions?
09:19 < Prof_Birch> I can't really mess around with it until I get Linux fully working
09:19 < kekePower> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/05/attention-pgp-users-new-vulnerabilities-require-you-take-action-now
09:20 < Prof_Birch> I have launched X, and I can run firefox and whatnot, but there's still a bit to do
09:20 < pingfloyd> why would you want a chromebook anyway?
09:20 < Prof_Birch> I dont
09:21 < pingfloyd> chromebooks are more like toys
09:21 < Prof_Birch> I want a full Linux system on my phone, but chromebook is a good baseline for people that say "it'll never be powerful enough"
09:21 < Prof_Birch> yeah I agree
09:21 < Prof_Birch> I feel the same way about mac though
09:21 < pingfloyd> yeah
09:21 < pingfloyd> google stole that title from apple though
09:21 < pingfloyd> by trying to be like apple
09:22 < Prof_Birch> TBF, I think windows sucks too. I really do love Linux
09:22 < pingfloyd> android is good because it's an alternative to IOS which is far worse.
09:22 < Prof_Birch> I like android, don't particularly like its framework compared to Linux, but in terms of Mobile freedom, it might as well be open to anything
09:23 < Prof_Birch> My goal is to offer an inexpensive system for education that allows students and families access to full computer resources at low costs
09:23 < pingfloyd> for my phone I just use android because its there and does what I want my phone to do, but for desktop computing, I rather have to deal with windows than macos or chromeos
09:24 < Prof_Birch> Instead of needing a laptop, and a phone, and internet, you can just work with a phone, any TV with HDMI,and a mobile connection
09:24 < Prof_Birch> which means even low income areas can ensure that students can type papers, or research
09:24 < Prof_Birch> It's much easier to buy a monitor than it is a laptop
09:24 < Prof_Birch> and who doesn't have a phone anymore
09:25 < avenger> ubuntu touch was an attempt a while ago...
09:25 < pingfloyd> the problem is you really need a keyboard if there is decent amount of typing required
09:25 < pingfloyd> the phones have voice to text, but it can be very annoying and dumb.
09:25 < avenger> raspberry pi beat you to it btw
09:25 < Prof_Birch> Oh for sure, but again people have to buy a pi, where they already have a phone
09:25 < Prof_Birch> Pi was just what made me think its feasable
09:26 < Prof_Birch> also 2/5 Millennials use a phone exclusively as their computer
09:26 < Prof_Birch> Why not improve its functionality
09:26 < Prof_Birch> I am not striving to impact android functionality, which It seems ubuntu was
09:27 < pingfloyd> ubuntu didn't realize they'll get nowhere without a really good ecosystem in place first
09:27 < Prof_Birch> I'd likely have to shim Android init, and replace surface flinger, which I have no intention of doing
09:27 < pingfloyd> e.g., lots of people interested in writing apps and games for your store.
09:27 < pingfloyd> was too late for them
09:27 < pingfloyd> because android and ios scooped all those up prior
09:28 < Prof_Birch> Right, that's why an Android/Linux paring is beautiful, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. You get the benefits of both systems
09:28 < pingfloyd> and at that point, there's a big time investment in learning those platforms
09:28 < pingfloyd> I think ubuntu, only would have stood at chance if they can competed early on
09:30 < MrElendig> firefox had a chance to compete with android/apple, but threw it away by shipping on devices that were literally too low spec to run the os
09:30 < Henry151> i want a world where you have to choose a distribution when you first boot up your new cell phone
09:30 < goodafternoon> hi there :)
09:30 < MrElendig> some of the firefox os phones couldn't even boot the os reliable due to the lack of ram
09:30 < Prof_Birch> I mean, my phone can do that, there's just not that many OSs
09:31 < Prof_Birch> basically Plasma mobile, Android, and just Linux. Only 2 are meant for mobile, and only one is stable
09:31 < Henry151> i put kali nethunter on my nexus 9. It was the biggest waste of time I've ever been involved in.
09:31 < pingfloyd> the thing you can pretty much count on is that the users will go to whatever platform has all the applications they want.
09:31 < goodafternoon> "However, note that the tunneled data traffic is not encrypted at all, and can be read and changed by external parties relatively easily. For maximum security, run a VPN through the DNS tunnel" the DNS tunnel is already set up and working with iodine, someone can help me to set up the vpn on the client side ?
09:31 < Prof_Birch> That's why I'm not messing with Android. IT's already proven
09:32 < Prof_Birch> Of course, idk that I can convert people ever if I can't get it on a device out of the box
09:32 < Prof_Birch> which I'd like to do, but that's a pipe dream for now
09:32 < Prof_Birch> Till then, it'll just be piece of mind in my pocket
09:32 < TheWild> HP printer software alerts about available update, but always fails to update. Possible cause: the url to update has changed. To update the url in new versions, they release the update.
09:33 < MrElendig> Henry151: kali always is
09:33 < MrElendig> TheWild: more fun when they brick themself
09:33 < MrElendig> TheWild: mine decided to restart itself in the middle of a update
09:33 < Henry151> yeah i love the way everybody hates kali... even the people in #kali-linux hate kali linux
09:34 < MrElendig> Henry151: the problme is more the people (failing) to use it
09:34 < pingfloyd> that's because it's a dist for posers
09:34 < Henry151> i learned a lot about linux by trying to use kali as my desktop OS for a year or two
09:34 < Henry151> nobody would help me though
09:34 < MrElendig> Henry151: those that think that it is some super secure os (which is the oposite of what it is) or think it will magically turn them into a pen tester or l33t hacker
09:34 < Henry151> in #kali-linux they'd say "this os is for penetration testing only, try some other distro"
09:34 < Henry151> in #debian they'd say "we don't like kali"
09:35 < Henry151> here in ##linux they'd say "try sudo rm -rf /"
09:35 < pingfloyd> no, in #debian they'd say, kali isn't debian and we don't support it
09:35 < MrElendig> it is ment to be used in a throwaway VM, not as a desktop
09:35 < Henry151> pingfloyd: accurate
09:35 < MrElendig> desktop/daily driver
09:35 < Henry151> yeah, i know
09:35 < Henry151> i made it work tho
09:35 < pingfloyd> I wouldn't trust it outside of a VM
09:36 < Henry151> even got netflix working on it even when nobody would help me
09:36 < Henry151> DRM crap and stuff
09:36 < MrElendig> that is as simple as installing chrome
09:36 < pingfloyd> not because I think it may have backdoors or something, but because of quality (lack of)>
09:36 < MrElendig> not exactly rocket science
09:36 < Henry151> nah it was harder
09:37 < Henry151> anyway eventually i switched to debian
09:37 < Henry151> but not because anybody told me i should, i had to come around on my own
09:37 < Henry151> :)
09:38 < pingfloyd> I think the stigma for kali comes from that there is a constant influx of newbies that think kali is a daily use dist in spite of it saying everywhere that is exactly what it isn't.
09:38 < Henry151> well, i used it as my daily driver for a little over two years
09:39 < pingfloyd> so they come in with these ignorant expectations and an attitude to match
09:39 < MrElendig> or that they will turn into l33t hackers/pen testers if they use it
09:39 < Aperture_Dude> I think some of these people got the idea that it was a daily use distro from Mr. Robot. Just my thought anyway.
09:40 < pingfloyd> if they're not careful, they'll end up being pen tested in the federal pen
09:40 < day> if you hack systems on a daily basis, why not :P
09:40 < pingfloyd> they don't send hacker to club fed
09:40 < Henry151> to be honest i started with it back when it was Backtrack 3, and i initially found it because i wanted free wifi
09:40 < pingfloyd> *hackers
09:40 < day> Henry151: same, lol
09:41 < Henry151> i got my free wifi.
09:41 < MrElendig> as if you need a special distro forthat
09:41 < Henry151> well, it came with fern wifi cracker pre-installed, it was point-and-click
09:41 < MrElendig> nor break the law
09:41 < day> it had the patched wifi drivers that allowed injection
09:41 < MrElendig> which is trivial to install on any distro
09:41 < day> no
09:42 < day> you cant even see "trivial" from your cloud :P
09:43 < Henry151> i mean, it was hard enough at that point for me to figure out how to make a livecd of anything
09:43 < Henry151> when i finally got kali to boot up for the first time i had been trying for like 3 months to figure it out
09:44  * Henry151 doesn't mind admitting to being slow sometimes
09:44 < Henry151> but back then a lot of people's wifi was only WEP and it was super easy to crack the neighbors wifi and give all my friends the password...
09:45 < Henry151> i'd bring my laptop over to my friend's houses to get them all their neighbors keys
09:45 < Henry151> got to feel like i knew what i was doing, even though i knew i didn't know what i was doing
09:45 < Henry151> free wifi everywhere
09:47 < Henry151> anybody ever play with liberte linux?
09:47 < Henry151> https://dee.su/
09:47 < Henry151> i still keep a copy of it on USB just for fun
09:48 < Henry151> i gather that it is no longer a good choice for anything because it is so outdated
09:48 < Henry151> but i like it anyway.
09:48 < Henry151> it was to give people access to the open internet in countries with great firewalls
09:49 < Henry151> I actually would love additional opinions about it
09:49 < Henry151> I really like the secure communication channel concept
09:50 < heftig> hm, why are the intel core temperatures not exported as a thermal_zone?
09:50 < heftig> I only have the package temperature
09:50 < Henry151> like i've got 3 panasonic toughbooks and I would love to someday put liberte linux on all three and give one to my dad and one to my brother and be like "now we can securely communicate even though the government is cracking down and we all have to go into hiding"
09:50 < MrElendig> heftig: coretemp loaded?
09:51 < heftig> MrElendig: yep
09:51 < MrElendig> may show up as their own category in sensors then
09:51 < MrElendig> I asume you are using sensors
09:51 < heftig> no, just poking /sys
09:52 < MrElendig> they are in hwmon/coretemp.* then
09:52 < Aperture_Dude> liberte linux looks interesting especially using i2p over tor for communication
09:52 < Henry151> https://dee.su/cables
09:52 < Henry151> this was the most interesting part of libert linux to me
09:53 < MrElendig> Aperture_Dude: I can see some problems with that
09:53 < heftig> MrElendig: hm, right. so there's two different subsystems for temperatures; annoying
09:53 < Aperture_Dude> Oh yeah I agree.
09:54 < MrElendig> like instantly making you a giant target
09:54 < Aperture_Dude> That and it would be incredibly slow from what I remember when I did some research on it
09:55 < Aperture_Dude> But I guess slow wouldn't matter if you wanted to be secured
09:57 < MrElendig> heftig: I wish everything was ported to hwmon
09:58 < Henry151> the only way to communicate without the NSA listening is to go on old COD servers and write your messages on the walls with bullets
09:58 < MrElendig> that can be tracked
09:58 < Henry151> in pig latin
09:59 < MrElendig> you would be better off with deaddrops
09:59 < MrElendig> and/or good stenography
09:59 < Aperture_Dude> I was just about to say either deaddrops or using a OTP
09:59 < heftig> if you join common COD servers it's still very clear who you associate with
10:00 < MrElendig> but your machine is probably backdoored anywya
10:00 < Henry151> aw man
10:00 < MrElendig> anyway*, so the old style deaddrops
10:00 < MrElendig> that takes actual people on the ground to track
10:00 < heftig> your contacts still need to be within travel distance, though
10:00 < Henry151> i already put a lot of time into teaching all my family members how to do cables communication with liberte linux and giving them each a copy of it on a USB key
10:01 < MrElendig> or you need a network
10:01 < Henry151> so i'm ready for the end-times
10:01 < Henry151> yeah i wanna learn how to do internet over ham-radio too
10:01 < Henry151> i hear that is possible
10:01 < heftig> the end-times will start with the collapse of the internet
10:01 < MrElendig> Henry151: sidenote: encryption is illegal in that use case
10:01 < Henry151> well yes
10:02 < MrElendig> and if you do use encryption over ham radio, then there is a good chance that you will get some visitors
10:02 < Henry151> using firearms to protect yourself from tyranny is also usually not a legal use-case, but that's the only reason i would bother owning one or knowing how to use it
10:02 < Aperture_Dude> Well, in the end times no one will be around to enforce it since everyone will be trying to survive
10:02 < Henry151> i read a piece about how the second amendment should be ratified to protect our right to bear encryption
10:03 < Henry151> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/z433zx/the-second-amendment-case-for-the-right-to-bear-encryption
10:03 < Henry151> there it is
10:03 < heftig> you can bear it but you can't use it
10:03 < Henry151> i really really want to learn how to do internet over ham-radio now because of this conversation
10:03 < Henry151> thanks guys
10:03 < Aperture_Dude> I would say it falls closer to 1st amendment rights but 2nd can work too
10:03 < Henry151> just wasted the next six months of my life
10:03 < sauvin> Second amendment of what?
10:04 < heftig> the rules of the internet
10:04 < Aperture_Dude> Constitution of USA
10:04 < sauvin> Oh.
10:04 < Henry151> did anybody read this other thing i linked earlier? http://merkle.com/papers/DAOdemocracyDraft.pdf
10:04 < Henry151> it's the most interesting thing i've read in a long while
10:05 < Henry151> if you're into that sort of thing
10:06 < ij> Systemd starts my X session, but sometimes I leave ttys open, which you can freely always switch to leaving an open shell even if I locked X. How could I kill the ttys after a timeout?
10:07 < heftig> btw, has anyone managed to get HDMI 2.0 out of an Intel NUC?
10:07 < heftig> Windows works but Linux won't
10:07 < jim> Henry151, what has you say/think you're wasting 6 months?
10:07 < MrElendig> heftig: which distro?
10:08 < heftig> MrElendig: tried Arch and Ubuntu 18.04
10:08 < Henry151> jim: oh, i figure i'll waste six months learning how to do internet over ham-radio
10:08 < MrElendig> tried explicitly adding the mode?
10:08 < heftig> GNOME Shell Wayland manages to configure 2160p60 but only using downsampled chroma (and thus still 1.4)
10:08 < MrElendig> I assume you want it for 4k@60
10:08 < Henry151> funny, my dad has a friend named jim who does ham radio...
10:09 < MrElendig> try xorg
10:09 < jim> oh ok, so you don't want to do it?
10:09 < MrElendig> and an explicit mode
10:09 < heftig> MrElendig: xorg stops at 2160p30
10:09 < heftig> explicit mode doesn't work
10:09 < jim> I'm confused about your use of "waste"
10:09 < Henry151> ah
10:09 < MrElendig> which chipset?
10:09 < Henry151> yes, it won't really be wasted
10:10 < MrElendig> atleast apollo should have working 2.0
10:10 < MrElendig> since mid last year
10:10 < Henry151> it's just i get interested in these random things that don't make me any money and i always feel like, if only i applied this to something profitable...
10:10 < jim> yeah, since you want to, you're just taking action to implement something you want
10:10 < MrElendig> Henry151: sidenote: ham radio sort of sucks atm due to low solar activity
10:11 < MrElendig> specially the MW band
10:11 < heftig> MrElendig: NUC7CJYH and NUC6i7KYB
10:11 < Henry151> i actually got a book and tried to study for my ham radio license test a long time ago
10:11 < heftig> er, KYK
10:11 < Henry151> i think my dad's friend jim gave it to me, actually
10:11 < Henry151> you're not him, are you jim ?
10:12 < jim> Henry151, ham license is easy now (and, I don't think so)
10:12 < ij> I found it! One can kill idle sessions by setting TMOUT.
10:12 < MrElendig> you don't need to know morse anymore
10:13 < MrElendig> so it instantly got 90% easier
10:13 < jim> until you get to general class
10:13 < heftig> MrElendig: that is, one Gemini Lake and one Sunrise Point
10:22 < Henry151> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_multimedia_radio reading this now
10:23 < Henry151> so, if i were to say, start transmitting fully encrypted information over those channels, as is forbidden by law
10:24 < Henry151> or say my buddy were to do so
10:24 < jim> yeah you have to publish the encryption key
10:24 < Henry151> how would they trace the source of the transmissions? wouldn't it be very hard to pinpoint them geographically, especially if they were not "on all the time" but instead only used in short bursts every once in a while, from some other place?
10:25 < jim> and/or the method of encryption
10:26 < Henry151> i want tor-over-ham-radio
10:26 < Henry151> except better
10:26 < Henry151> y'know what i mean
10:26 < Henry151> uncensorable internet
10:26 < heftig> Henry151: it's not hard at all
10:26 < Henry151> that will work during the end-times
10:27 < MrElendig> tor wouldn't help with that
10:27 < michaelrose> who says "end times" are coming
10:27 < MrElendig> would probably hurt
10:28 < Henry151> they're already here
10:28 < Henry151> like, for example, my brother lives in colorado
10:28 < Henry151> i live in vermont
10:28 < michaelrose> I'm guessing you mean the imaginary biblical ones as opposed to ordinary disaster
10:28 < jim> Henry151, how would they trace? this is the FCC, who have these giant dish antennas in various locations, so they can trace you, make no mistake about it... then the fcc van drives to your house
10:29 < MrElendig> they don't use giant dishes to track ham
10:29 < MrElendig> (that would be highly inefficient)
10:29 < Henry151> i wanna be able to exchange email-like communications with him, me in vermont and him in colorado, over channels that won't be broken down if infrastructure crumbles
10:29 < oiaohm> Henry151: depends what country you are in with amateur radio laws.    Some countries allow encryption if you openly publish the keys.  Some countries allow encryption if key provide to countries regulator for radio communications. Some countries forbid it out right.
10:29 < MrElendig> they use a bunch of small antennas spread out + tracking vans
10:29 < Henry151> USA
10:29 < oiaohm> Henry151: USA FCC law techically forbid it but there has never been enforcement.
10:30  * MrElendig have been involved with radio tracking
10:30 < heftig> if someone with tracking vans is determined to find you it's pretty easy, but you need to be noticed first
10:30 < Henry151> ok but there have to be techniques for avoiding being caught by radio-tracking folks
10:30 < MrElendig> Henry151: short story: there isn't
10:30 < MrElendig> Henry151: you can make it somewhat more resource intensive, but if they really want to they will find you
10:31 < michaelrose> you can tell how long a signal takes to get to you. So if you take a map and draw a point at your location all possible points are a circle right? Take 3 points and you will note they intersect
10:31 < MrElendig> Henry151: you have to remember they have been tracking people with a lot more knowledge and resources than you
10:31 < Henry151> well, MrElendig , imagine a scenario where i'm only "broadcasting" for a couple hours, once a month or so but not in any repeating pattern of frequency
10:32 < MrElendig> like other countries covert operators and the like
10:32 < Henry151> and each time from a different location
10:32 < MrElendig> remember that whole cold war thing? they got a lot of practice :p
10:32 < Henry151> well yeah, those sort of things make me assume that there must be already well-established, tried-and-true methods and operational procedures for communicating with radio waves covertly
10:32 < michaelrose> Henry151, what would the point of that be?
10:33 < MrElendig> Henry151: it is called "don't, it is more secure and efficient to use the internet"
10:33 < Henry151> well if there's internet, that's great
10:33 < Henry151> i'm talking about learning how to do these things to allow secure communications between team members in a "shit-hits-the-fan" event that takes the internet down
10:33 < michaelrose> if the world ends why would you need to care about encryption or hiding your signal?
10:34 < MrElendig> the second you broadcast you are a target
10:34 < TheWild> random cite from the internets: "This is more secure than AES256, because nobody knows how it works."
10:34 < oiaohm> Henry151: places like UK and Australia if it for emergency services or equal reason amateur radio can be encrypted to any level deemed required.
10:34 < MrElendig> michaelrose: to hide from the illuminati ofcourse
10:34 < Henry151> ham radio is great but what if xyz happens and i need to get an encrypted message to my brother in colorado, telling him where to meet for extraction to a safer country, etc etc
10:35 < Henry151> oiaohm: i typed that before i saw your comment, not as a response
10:35 < jim> Henry151, you'd have to do that over the nonham internet
10:35 < michaelrose> Henry151, then you could just use encryption and send one message
10:35 < michaelrose> or you know chat on the radio all you like because nobody cares
10:35 < Henry151> ok, so maybe saying internet over ham radio isn't the right terminology
10:36 < michaelrose> presumably with you know the world going to complete hell people would be disinterested in where you and your brother were going
10:36 < oiaohm> Henry151: there is always Steganography.   So you can send something not encrypted with something hidden inside it encrypted.
10:36 < michaelrose> or at least wouldn't be apt to try to track you down to decrypt your secret message
10:36 < Henry151> i just mean transmitting him an encrypted email with radio signals of some sort that don't rely on infrastructure out there; like direct point-to-point communication between my broadcasting thingymabogger and his receiving thingamabogger from vermont to colorado
10:37 < Henry151> i thought ham radio did that sort of distance
10:37 < Henry151> does it not?
10:37 < MrElendig> depends on athmopheric conditions etc
10:37 < michaelrose> If you think this is likely why aren't you both moving to this safer country now?
10:37 < MrElendig> at the moment it is somewhat cruddy due to the low sun activity
10:37 < michaelrose> when you could get their on normal trains and planes and such
10:37 < Henry151> so I wanna be able to have him turn on his thingy and point his dish thing my way, and i turn on my thingy and point my dish thing his way, and we exchange some packets and anybody eavesdropping just sees encrypted data, but he can decrypt and i can decrypt so we can communicate
10:38 < oiaohm> Henry151: ham radio range is highly variable.    Sometimes you have trouble even getting more than 20 kms.
10:38 < MrElendig> Henry151: dish antenna is about the worst thing you could use for this
10:38 < Henry151> indeed
10:38 < MrElendig> oiaohm: s/20km/more than los/
10:38 < Henry151> i'm learning here
10:38 < MrElendig> or even inside los
10:39 < oiaohm> MrElendig: I have had 20kms los with no signal due to be under aura.
10:39 < michaelrose> so are you secret squirel or moroco mole?
10:39 < Henry151> i think these things are very important
10:39 < michaelrose> Henry151, can you give me an example scenario?
10:40 < MrElendig> he's been watching too many preppers videos on yt
10:40 < oiaohm> MrElendig: aurora australis basically ruined day.   Mother nature can be a pain at times.
10:40 < Henry151> sure, plausible or not?
10:40 < michaelrose> I think seat belts are important because tomorrow someone could tbone our car because their talking on their cell phone
10:40 < michaelrose> something like that
10:41 < Henry151> idiot trump pisses off china and they come take over mainland USA, and they start executing people who have made facebook posts like mine
10:41 < MrElendig> Henry151: been playing too much fallout?
10:41 < MrElendig> :p
10:41 < MrElendig> or that other cruddy game
10:41 < Henry151> which one
10:42 < Henry151> i only play one game lately
10:42 < oiaohm> Henry151: No if china got serous they would just demand USA pays back their debts.
10:42 < Henry151> sure
10:42 < MrElendig> if a china/us war happens, you got bigger things to worry about
10:42 < Henry151> ok, maybe trump decides to round up all the "unpatriotic folks" and i make the list because of my social media posts
10:42 < oiaohm> Henry151: of course make part of paying that debt catching the people china wants and sending them over.
10:42 < MrElendig> than a mainland US chinese invasion
10:43 < Henry151> i mean the scenarios are not plausible
10:43 < MrElendig> like the 2000 nukes flying all over the place
10:43 < michaelrose> Wouldn't this be after global nuclear war killed a signifigant portion of the population and ruined everyones ability to make war?
10:43 < oiaohm> Henry151: one of the basics of the art of war is that if you beat person with money you can make them do what you want without ever invading.
10:43 < Henry151> but the possibility of needing to communicate long-distance over non-standard channels and with strong encryption, that seems like a real possibility to me
10:43 < djph> pretty much
10:43 < michaelrose> it would also have to be before everyone started starving
10:44 < pressure679> How does one setup and start mysql?
10:44 < Henry151> i mean i can imagine a million different implausible scenarios; but i think it's important to be well armed, and i think rifles are not good enough; we need communications technology as well
10:44 < djph> pressure679: apt-get install mysql-server
10:44 < djph> (unless you're not on a debian-based distro)
10:44 < oiaohm> Henry151: if you have line of sight you can use optical that does not have a legal limitation on the encryption you can use.
10:44 < jim> pressure679, in some dists, you get it from their precompiled archive... what dist do you run?
10:45 < Henry151> oiaohm: lol
10:45 < Henry151> i'm less worried about the legalities and more about the technicalities
10:45 < pressure679> djph: and after that "service start mysql", and then fix missing mysql.sock file?
10:45 < Henry151> i'd like to know what i can buy at radio-shack and point at far-away-land hooked to my computer, and have my buddy in far-away-land receive direct communication from my computer to his
10:46 < pressure679> jim: That is not so much the case, rather the fact mysql will not start.
10:46 < pressure679> I know it is fixable since I did it some years ago.
10:47 < jim> pressure679, it probably matters which dist this is
10:47 < jim> pressure679, so, which dist is this?
10:47 < djph> pressure679: no, never had to screw around with any of that.  what distro are you running?
10:47 < djph> Henry151: nothing, because, well, "the earth".
10:48 < Henry151> well thanks for the conversation, gentlemen (and possibly ladies).
10:48 < Henry151> the birds are starting to chirp and the sky is getting pinkish here in vermont
10:49 < Henry151> so i will withdraw from the conversation and consider sleeping.
10:50 < jim> Henry151, see you next time
10:51 < pressure679> jim: djph: Fedora, but the error also happened to me on Ubuntu.
10:52 < Henry151> i'll be bach.
10:52 < shrdlu68> Hi, how does ls(1) access selinux policies through the -Z flag?
10:53 < jim> pressure679, that's interesting, maybe there's something on your net that's conflicting?
10:53 < leeyaa> hello
10:53 < john_rambo>  How do I check SSD health ? Never done this before
10:53 < jim> hi
10:53 < jim> john_rambo, there's something called smart monitoring
10:53 < leeyaa> if i have this time format: 01/May/2018:22:42:03 how to grep from 1sth of may to 14th of may ?
10:54 < shrdlu68> leeyaa: Does the year matter?
10:55 < leeyaa> shrdlu68: yes i guess, although i dont have other years in logs
10:56 < pressure679> jim: Nah man, I am not going to find more issues, I have dealt with them, they were all resolved.
10:56 < pressure679> Sorry, I should probably look somewhere else.
10:56 < jim> pressure679, oh, so mysql is st6arting now?
10:58 < pressure679> jim: Heh, the nature/error of the issue has changed over the years, but the error output message stays the same.
10:58 < jim> "over the years"?
10:58 < pressure679> I was just hoping someone knew how to setup MySQL.
10:58 < shrdlu68> leeyaa: Something like this ought to work: [0-1][0-4]/May/.*
10:58 < TheWild> how does ./configure check that something (e.g. libssl-dev) is installed?
10:59 < jim> TheWild, it probably compiles and runs a C program that uses it
10:59 < pressure679> ls -l /var/lib | grep sql
10:59 < pressure679> whoops.
11:00 < MrElendig> pressure679: ls -l /var/lib/*sql*
11:00 < leeyaa> shrdlu68: tried slomething like that. it gives just a few lines from first of may ;p
11:00 < MrElendig> don't parse ls
11:00 < pressure679> Don't get the shifty pinky either.
11:00 < jim> ls ... | grep ... # is parsing ls
11:03 < shrdlu68> leeyaa: Hmm, are you certain there are logs from the other days in the range?
11:03 < leeyaa> shrdlu68: yes
11:04 < leeyaa> shrdlu68: here are some examples: https://bpaste.net/show/cfce1a3546bb
11:08 < leeyaa> anyway, i will figure it out later. gotta go now. thanks!
11:08 < shrdlu68> leeyaa: Ah, I see the problem. This requires some more sophisticated regex.
11:09 < leeyaa> shrdlu68: if you could paste it and i will see it later. i will be very grateful ;p
11:09 < jim> pressure679, about "they were all resolved", if the service doesn't start, there's gotta be a reason... thousands of people use mysql every day, and using the fedora and ubuntu dists
11:10 < jim> if you don't want to try to find out why, no problem... but then, you should adjust your expectations
11:10 < MrElendig> if only there was a logging system that stored the time in a well define structure and let you filter based on the timestamp
11:10 < MrElendig> :p
11:11 < djph> MrElendig: maybe it could count seconds since 1/1/1970?
11:11 < jim> MrElendig, bordering on sarcasm (act of conveying contempt using irony)... I'd rather not have contempt here :)
11:13 < shrdlu68> leeyaa: grep -E '([0-1][0-4]|0[5-7])/May/.*'
11:15 < shrdlu68> leeyaa: grep -E '([0-1][0-4]|0[5-9])/May/.*'
11:15 < anddam> hello, what's causing this library issue? https://gist.github.com/anddam/f0a0d485acb6497f00819926dd742a61
11:16 < anddam> I see libgtk-3.so is in ldconfig output
11:17 < MrElendig> anddam: file CoolTerm
11:18 < anddam> CoolTerm: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib/ld-linux.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, BuildID[sha1]=2547358de8b0cf1a01ab0c200f1e8ce26a853e7c, not stripped
11:18 < MrElendig> there is your problem
11:18 < anddam> ofc
11:18 < MrElendig> it this some closed source crud?
11:19 < MrElendig> if not, rebuilt it for x86_64
11:19 < anddam> I think it's closed
11:19 < anddam> ohh  ELF 32-bit
11:19 < MrElendig> then go and tell upstream that it is 2018 now, and 64bit is a thing and that more and more operating systems are dropping 32bit
11:19 < anddam> thanks for pointing that out
11:19 < MrElendig> in the mean time, install lib32-allthethings
11:20 < anddam> I will, it's a GUI terminal emulator
11:20 < anddam> for serial ports, that is
11:20 < MrElendig> I would just use one that isn't closed source
11:20 < Silmarilion> Hi, are docking stations hot swappable? When I dock the laptop, often the third monitor attached to the docking station is not recognized and I need to do a reboot.
11:20 < jim> anddam, so you would need a multiarch system, and appropriate libs to support it
11:20 < MrElendig> eg putty
11:20 < stevendale> Hi
11:20 < MrElendig> (if you muse use a gui one)
11:20 < MrElendig> must*
11:20 < jim> hi,,,
11:20 < anddam> I just found gnome has one called moserial but it's got a "split" view, send/receive. THe friend I'm working with suggested this one, he's on windows
11:21 < jim> hey stevendale, did you say you run debian sid?
11:21 < anddam> MrElendig: I don't *have* to, but I dislike screen and minicom UX
11:21 < stevendale> Yeah jim
11:21 < anddam> not the fact they are CLI, but their shortcus are very awkward
11:22 < MrElendig> anddam: putty/kitty/cutecom/moserial if it has to be gui
11:22 < anddam> (that's the main reason I switched to tmux a few years ago)
11:22 < jim> stevendale, could you try: ip -json route and see if that's not an error?
11:22 < MrElendig> anddam: else dterm/minicom
11:23 < MrElendig> or serialclient
11:23 < MrElendig> advantage of putty/forks is that they are cross platform
11:24 < anddam> kitty seems to be win-only
11:25 < MrElendig> it is possible to build it for nix too
11:25 < anddam> thanks
11:25 < anddam> likely not worth it
11:26 < MrElendig> also confusingly, there are two terminals called kitty
11:26 < pxfgod> Are there distinguish between Data TLB / Code TLB on X86-64 architecture? (Translation Lookaside Buffer )  I mean are there data TLB(s) and code TLB(s) on X86-64???
11:26 < jim> stevendale, I don't necessarily want to see the output, but I do want to know if ip route understands -json
11:28 < MrElendig> it doesn't
11:29 < pxfgod> Are there two kinds of TLB(HARDWARE) on X86-64 architecture???, one is Data TLB(s) and another is Code TLB(s). I mean "Does X86-64 distinguish different usage of TLB"?     TLB is short for (Translation Lookaside Buffer)
11:31 < jim> MrElendig, was that to me? howbout ip -json addr?
11:32 < MrElendig> that spits out json
11:32 < jim> ok
11:32  * MrElendig likes how -json is not documented in any of the manuals
11:32 < jim> that seems like a bug
11:32 < MrElendig> ip -json r doesn't complain, but it doesn't spit out json either
11:33 < MrElendig> this is on 4.16
11:33 < MrElendig> 4.16.0*
11:33 < jim> howbout this: ip -json route show exact 0.0.0.0/0
11:33 < MrElendig> no json
11:34 < jim> ok
11:34 < jim> thanks
11:35 < MrElendig> rule/token/tunnel etc also doesn't spit out json
11:35 < MrElendig> probably only implemented for a and l
11:37 < jim> now I'm wondering if the latest git version outputs json for more of that stuff
11:37 < bipul> How to check the public and private key integrity? Since I have lot of keys, And i am not sure which  private key matches it's public key?
11:38 < jim> bipul, lots of times, people name their keys, like keyA and keyA.pub and like thast
11:41 < bipul> jim, I though there is way through which we can confirm the identity of pair of pub and private key.
11:44 < stevendale> OwO
11:44 < stevendale> What's this?!
11:46 < autopsy__> stevendale what's what?
11:47 < jim> bipul, one way, you could try encrypting something (like a line of text) with one key and see which key decrypts it?
11:50 < bipul> Yes, that would be a hit and trial method. Well i am bit messed. I 'm managing here 50 Linux Server  inside it each VM running 3 jails and each jail has different IP.
11:50 < bipul> Ops sorry wrong window.
11:50 < autopsy__> bipul that's a lot of IP addresse s.
11:52 < stevendale> Will the world run out of IPs
11:52 < bipul> Yes, and i have made 3 different network also
11:53 < jim> stevendale, of course it will
11:53 < jim> then there will be ipv7 or something
11:54 < stevendale> We could do a Microsoft and go straight to IPv10
11:54 < autopsy__> jim I thought IPv6 was ennough?
11:54 < stevendale> XD
11:54 < pingfloyd> too much is never enough
11:55 < autopsy__> stevendale Microsoft always tries to come out with thier own standards.
11:55 < bipul> I think the best way to monitor 100+ servers via logstash, just configure the log stash /var/log and App/log in it. And make your self free. If something would happen it will notify us.
11:57 < autopsy__> bipul sounds interesting.
11:57 < autopsy__> bipul what about a kernel panick though? It can't log those right?
11:58 < Maxdamantus> Out of interest, does anyone know of a simple tool for temporarily storing the contents of a pipe in multiple files/devices in such a way to maximise throughput?
11:59 < bipul> Yes , it will, you need to define those keys(warrning, error etc) inside logstash. And run elasticsearch also
11:59 < autopsy__> bipul you workin for a data centre or something?
11:59 < Maxdamantus> so you can do something like `fast-producer | store -w /dev/sdb2 /dev/sdc2 /mnt/sdd2/file` then later `store -r /dev/sdb2 /dev/sdc2 /mnt/sdd2/file` to restore the contents?
11:59 < bipul> I was.. autopsy__
12:00 < autopsy__> Maxdamantus restore the contents back to where?
12:00 < Maxdamantus> autopsy__: standard output
12:01 < autopsy__> Oh.
12:01 < bipul> Even i have experise in taking all kinds of backup and disaster recovery.
12:01 < autopsy__> bipul was meaning you were at one time not anymore?
12:01 < Maxdamantus> autopsy__: so the saving to disk is fast enough to not underrun.
12:02 < autopsy__> Maxdamantus aren't some commands buffered output through pipes?
12:02 < bipul> No i 'm seeking :( I'm jobless.
12:02 < autopsy__> bipul try vworker.com They have a lot of good entries.
12:03 < bipul> autopsy__, Thank you.
12:03 < Maxdamantus> autopsy__: some commands, sure. Linux even has its own buffering in pipes, but that's going to be even more limited.
12:03 < Maxdamantus> (and in any case, those buffers are limited to RAM/swap)
12:04 < autopsy__> Maxdamantus what's the scenario you got a lot of data coming from commands?
12:05 < autopsy__> strace puts out a lot of information to stdout.
12:07 < Maxdamantus> autopsy__: for example, recording a video game using minimal CPU for encoding.
12:08 < Maxdamantus> where it might theoretically be most efficient to just write to a couple of HDDs at a few hundred MB/s.
12:08 < Maxdamantus> (recording raw pixel data rather than trying to encode it)
12:08 < autopsy__> Maxdamantus ahh I see.
12:09 < autopsy__> Maxdamantus won't the RAW size be much greater though?
12:09 < Maxdamantus> autopsy__: yes, but you can encode it into something smaller later.
12:14 < autopsy__> Maxdamantus sounds like you need some cloud technology.
12:15 < Maxdamantus> Not very useful if you don't have a 10 Gb/s internet connection
12:16 < autopsy__> Maxdamantus I only got 300 KB/s connection.
12:17 < autopsy__> Maxdamantus but my drive is 5400 RPM.
12:17 < ananke> Maxdamantus: one typically solves this at the storage layer
12:20 < Maxdamantus> ananke: sure, you can make some "raid0" volume, but if you're just wanting to do something ad-hoc, it seems like it would be simpler (and probably more efficient) to just use a tool like I described.
12:21 < leeyaa> shrdlu68: worked great, thanks
12:22 < Maxdamantus> (more efficient since it can just store parts of the stream on whatever is not filling up the buffers, instead of relying on uniform write speeds across underlying storage, or special stripe sizes, etc)
12:22 < autopsy__> bipul On vworker.com there is many bid requests for system administrator jobs. Like I set up drbl and drbd with a Kerrighed Kernel back when the kernel version was 2.6.35 Set up a 10 node thin client cluster for someone out of California.
12:23 < ananke> Maxdamantus: what you describe is a pipe dream. literally. considering that this tool wouldn't know the total size of incoming data, it would have to make some very generous assumptions.
12:25 < Triffid_Hunter> Maxdamantus: for recording video games, I use glc, which records raw opengl and alsa calls instead of actual graphics, and can render the resulting file to video later.. seems to work great
12:25 < Triffid_Hunter> Maxdamantus: https://github.com/nullkey/glc
12:28 < mawk> if data is produced faster than you can write to disk how is this working Maxdamantus ?
12:30 < Maxdamantus> mawk: if you have multiple disks you can distribute the load.
12:30 < mawk> that doesn't sound like a great improvement
12:30 < autopsy__> Maxdamantus distribute the load that's right.
12:31 < mawk> you'll just divide the time until overflow by a small number
12:31 < autopsy__> Maxdamantus are you posting videos of your game play somewhere?
12:31 < stevendale> Hi
12:31 < Triffid_Hunter> mawk: umm that's not how load distribution works.. it would be pointless if the whole cluster could only work at the speed of one unit
12:31 < autopsy__> stevendale Hi to you again.
12:32 < Maxdamantus> autopsy__: no. I'm not trying to do something at the moment. Just wondering if something exists, since if it doesn't, I'll probably just make it in case I want to do something similar later.
12:32  * stevendale goes back to playing Pokémon
12:33 < Maxdamantus> Last time I did something like this, I just recorded to ramfs, but that was limited to something like three minutes at 30 fps
12:33 < mawk> yeah I said that the time will be divided, not clamped to the minimum of speeds, Triffid_Hunter
12:34 < mawk> isn't it what it is ? dividing the load ?
12:34 < Maxdamantus> glc might be a better way to do it if it works well, but it seems like the more general tool would potentially be useful for other things as well.
12:34 < Maxdamantus> mawk: dividing by, eg, 4 is quite significant.
12:34 < mawk> I see
12:34 < Maxdamantus> mawk: 1920*1080*3 at 50 fps is about 300 MiB/s
12:35 < Maxdamantus> easily handled by three modern harddrives.
12:35 < Maxdamantus> definitely not one .. you might be able to do it with two.
12:35 < Maxdamantus> you might be able to do it using a typical single SSD
12:36 < stevendale> I wonder if I am too old for Pokémon, jim?
12:36 < ananke> Maxdamantus: it would be interesting to know how you propose to solve the issues of not knowing up front what the size will be, on-disk format for both raw block devices and files, etc
12:36 < Triffid_Hunter> mawk: well if he needs 170% of the performance of one disk, using two disks would work fine and not eventually overflow as you suggested
12:36 < jim> stevendale, do you still enjoy it?
12:36 < mawk> the assumption made by ananke was that the bound ins't known Triffid_Hunter
12:36 < stevendale> Yeah jim
12:36 < mawk> but yeah for video it fits
12:37 < mawk> are you french stevendale ?
12:37 < MrElendig> Maxdamantus: some of the larger ones actually gets up to roughly that speed
12:37 < jim> don't let anyone tell you different. it's an external judgement
12:37 < stevendale> Australian, mawk
12:37 < mawk> why do you have an é on your keyboard
12:37 < Triffid_Hunter> Maxdamantus: obs and similar will compress on-the-fly as long as your CPU has a spare core that can keep up
12:38 < ananke> video as a general rule doesn't compress well nor fast
12:38 < bla> mawk: checkout compose button to be able to type éèê and other on Linux easily.
12:38 < Triffid_Hunter> mawk: same reason I do probably, to access fun like ° and µ and ½ and suchforth
12:38 < MrElendig> if you are worried about resource useage for encoding, get a hardware capture device
12:38 < stevendale> I speak other language mawk
12:38 < Maxdamantus> MrElendig: heh, well none of my harddrives do.
12:38 < MrElendig> can sometimes make life way easier when capturing certain games etc too anyway
12:38 < mawk> I see
12:39 < mawk> I have a µ letter on my keyboard, that's a waste of space
12:39 < autopsy__> stevendale what are dem languages you speak eh boy?
12:39 < Triffid_Hunter> bla: standard us keyboard layout doesn't have compose key afaik
12:39 < Triffid_Hunter> mawk: its altgr+m here for µ
12:39 < MrElendig> Maxdamantus: some of the 12tb drives are sniffing at 300mb in best case :p, typical average over the entire capasity is around 200 though
12:39 < bla> Triffid_Hunter: i bind it to the right "menu key"
12:39 < MrElendig> 150-200 even
12:40 < autopsy__> 200 MB/s thats not too bad.
12:40 < MrElendig> the 12tb ironwolf peaks at 260ish
12:40 < BluesKaj> Howdy folks
12:40 < stevendale> autopsy__ Swedish German, Japanese and English
12:41 < autopsy__> stevendale wow thats crazy.
12:41 < stevendale> German and Japanese were taught through education
12:41 < tx> oh
12:41 < tx> so your knowledge level is 10 weeks of class
12:41 < Maxdamantus> My 8 TB drive reads at 190 MiB/s
12:41 < Maxdamantus> (write speed will probably be lower, but don't have a spare partition to test that)
12:42 < Maxdamantus> (ironwolf)
12:42 < MrElendig> single task sequential is usually roughly read == write
12:42 < stevendale> I taught myself Swedish because I have some weird friends who are into that 'furry' stuff who are from Sweden, and I wanted to speak to them in English group chats in a way nobody else could understand
12:42 < MrElendig> maybe a 10% difference
12:42 < mawk> why would you learn something else than standard german in australia
12:43 < mawk> or maybe you missed a comma
12:43 < mawk> that would explain everything
12:43 < heftig> I don't think swedish german exists
12:43 < mawk> I thought swiss german is a thing so why not swedish
12:43 < pingfloyd> are there german meatballs?
12:43 < heftig> pingfloyd: frikadellen
12:44 < autopsy__> I bet they are made from Knockwurst.
12:44 < MrElendig> heftig: sort of was a thing back in ye olden days, but not anymore
12:44 < stevendale> pingfloyd Here? No, only german sausages
12:44 < heftig> pingfloyd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frikadeller
12:44 < MrElendig> ^ are nice
12:44 < pingfloyd> last night I saw that stuff on South Park
12:44 < pingfloyd> had no idea what they were talking about until now
12:45 < tx> any Afrikaans here?
12:46 < stevendale> My cat is licking my foot
12:46 < pingfloyd> kind of their version of a hamburger
12:46 < pingfloyd> or slider
12:47 < autopsy__> Cheese Coneys are good.
12:48 < pingfloyd> chili and cheese
12:48 < pingfloyd> and onions
12:49 < MrElendig> I had some nice frikadeller a couple of days ago that was mixed beef and pork, with mushrooms and cheese in them
12:49 < bla> Just learned how to filter-out joins/quits to make #Linux readable and all I read about is food.
12:49 < bla> Filter must be broken.
12:49 < pingfloyd> I like sauerkraut on my hot dogs
12:50 < tx> don't call wursts hot dogs
12:50 < fendur> bla: expectations too high
12:50 < tx> you are just the wurst.
12:50 < autopsy__> Saurkraut is good on anything.
12:50 < stevendale> Man Nintendo broke the Exp. share starting Pokemon X/Y and onwards
12:50 < pingfloyd> sauerkraut, mustard, and onions
12:50 < stevendale> It gives XP to everyone in your party
12:50 < stevendale> And it's a key item
12:50 < stevendale> And TMs are infinite use now
12:51 < MrElendig> bla: 1. upgrade weechat  2. /help filter
12:51 < MrElendig> :p
12:51 < leeyaa> guys trying to extract two user agents strings from apache access logs. im trying with grep -E, but I guess I am doing something wrong. can you suggest what am i missing? here is my one liner: grep -E "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/7.0; AS; rv:11.0) like Gecko | Mozilla/5.0 (compatible, MSIE 11, Windows NT 6.3; Trident/7.0; rv:11.0) like Gecko" access.log
12:51 < MrElendig> bla: 1.6 is ancient and has known security issues
12:51 < MrElendig> bla: including remote crashing
12:52 < bla> MrElendig: I'll migrate soon enough to more direct solution. Combining ZNC with weechat probably. 1.6 is Debian Stable default though
12:52 < MrElendig> bla: this is an example of why holding back versions like debian does doesn't make it more stable, as in not crash :p
12:52 < bla> MrElendig: maybe they patched it though
12:52 < bla> MrElendig: Up until recently I was on irssi.
12:52 < MrElendig> https://weechat.org/download/debian/
12:52 < stevendale> What did I have for dinner
12:53 < stevendale> Oh right
12:53 < stevendale> Nothing
12:53 < bla> I'm figuring out how to get XMPP (or other) push notifications included though.
12:53 < stevendale> What did I have for breakfast... Nothing!
12:53 < MrElendig> bla: they only patched some of the issues, others they can't without bumping the version
12:53 < bla> MrElendig:     (CVE-2017-14727) (Closes: #876553) is last patched in changelog.
12:53 < bla> Well, I'll update it soon enough. ;)
12:54 < MrElendig> not all issues gets a cve either
12:54 < MrElendig> pretty much a lighter version of https://blog.tingping.se/2018/03/02/when-distros-get-it-wrong.html
12:54 < MrElendig> milder*
12:56 < bla> Heh. Ok. That is a clusterfrack.
12:57 < bla> Still, since we're talking. What is your approach to IRC nowadays? I'd like to refresh mine. tmux+weechat? znc+tmux+weechat? znc+graphical client?
12:58 < mawk> znc tmux and weechat
12:58 < mawk> znc to have irc on my cellphone or unknown computers
12:58 < bla> Ok. So weechat as main client and znc to allow synchronous connection from other clients (so it's not overkill).
12:59 < MrElendig> I run weechat in tmux on a vps
12:59 < Maxdamantus> autopsy__: if you were actually interested in seeing a recording, I made this one a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEMPG3-0MHU
12:59 < bla> Then... would you do notifications on weechat or - znc?
12:59 < bla> (since both are up 100% of time?)
12:59 < mawk> notifications on znc ?
12:59 < mawk> how does that work ?
13:00 < bla> mawk: having highlight, or PM being forwarded to you "somehow" (email, xmpp, some android push service)
13:00 < mawk> that sounds annoying
13:00 < bla> Maybe having an IRC client connected to ZNC reduces that need though.
13:00 < mawk> I get many hilights
13:00 < mawk> yeah
13:01 < gulzar> I have a HPC where on master node a job is running since 6d. The ls /proc/6177/exe shows  /opt/pbs/14.2.2/pgsql/bin/postgres    . Its an PBS update job. Any idea how to control/stop or get more info from it?
13:04 < aruns> Hey guys, does anyone know of any free public SSH servers in either the Netherlands or Belgium?
13:06 < autopsy__> aruns I heard of a few but you gotta send them a postcard to get your account made.
13:07 < MrElendig> aruns: what for?
13:08 < heftig> MrElendig: I'd assume it's for spreading CP and wouldn't hand out any accounts to anons, ever
13:09 < pingfloyd> not even anon access to a MUD?
13:09 < Eimerzz> Hey. I have a problem with my .xinitrc file. I am starting dwm and a bar-plugin there (that is showing me the time etc) but the bar-plugin seems to crash occasionally. I thought of putting everything into a while loop but my ram usage is extraordinary high after a few moments.
13:09 < ananke> gulzar: check your typical pbs commands, showq, check_job, etc. or contact pbs support
13:09 < pingfloyd> Eimerzz: so much for "sucking less"
13:10 < Eimerzz> pingfloyd: what do you mean? :(
13:10 < pingfloyd> and you call yourself a dwm user
13:10 < fendur> Eimerzz: They have some super simple script that do this sort of thing, which I've never had any problems with.
13:10 < heftig> pingfloyd: eh, MUDs can be handled like IRC servers
13:10 < MrElendig> also, you can use forcecommand instead of giving the users a shell
13:11 < heftig> pingfloyd: SSH access is different
13:11 < Eimerzz> I did not call myself anything.
13:11 < Eimerzz> Why are you so mad lol
13:11 < gulzar> ananke: the previous guy gave no info about managing the HPC. I am trying to be on safer side.
13:11 < pingfloyd> heftig: would be insanes with ssh
13:11 < Bandie> Eimerzz: "sucking less" is the Slogan™ of dwm and stuff
13:12 < pingfloyd> Eimerzz: yeah, I'm mad bro!
13:12 < heftig> sucks less, blows more
13:12 < luna_> Videos from Red Hat Summit, will be up on Youtube in 6 hours
13:12 < ananke> gulzar: if you're using proper paid PBS pro, then you'd have paid support
13:12 < pingfloyd> less is more so suckless sucks more
13:12 < fendur> Eimerzz: suckless.org they can show you how to do it. I haven't seen the "plugins" for dwm. Just simple bash scripts that gather and report the data you want in the bar.
13:13 < MrElendig> suckless, because docs and configs files are bloat
13:13 < pingfloyd> and so is functionality
13:13 < pingfloyd> st doesn't even have scrolling
13:13 < MrElendig> fendur: awesomewm started out as a bunch of patches to make dwm useable
13:13 < Eimerzz> fendur: thanks. I will modify to code so that it is login the errors into a file.
13:13 < MrElendig> seriously, that is how awesomewm started
13:13 < fendur> MrElendig: I'm OK with dwm in its basic form
13:14 < gulzar> ananke: yes, we have paid support
13:14 < Eimerzz> I wonder why these guys are getting triggered so hard by the fact which wm I am using.
13:14 < MrElendig> fendur: back then it didn't handle multiple screens at all really (sort of fails ta it still)
13:14 < MrElendig> at*
13:14 < fendur> Eimerzz: that's just irc for you.
13:14 < revel> luna_: For talks or what? (no idea what RHS is)
13:15 < fendur> MrElendig: ok.
13:15 < aruns> MrElendig: I need to test a bug on a client site, and can only replicate if I am visiting from either Belgium or the Netherlands.
13:15 < pingfloyd> that's the great thing about foss, you can make other projects suck more (as in suck less).
13:15 < MrElendig> revel: retired husband syndrome
13:15 < revel> MrElendig: Red Hat Summit.
13:15 < aruns> I have found a nice list of free shell account sites, but I think most of them are US / UK based
13:16 < MrElendig> revel: aren't those the same? :p
13:16 < revel> No.
13:16 < fendur> aruns: are you the administrator?
13:16 < pingfloyd> poor Eimerzz taking everything so seriously
13:17 < aruns> fendur: Administrator...?
13:17 < fendur> aruns: why would the shell need to be in a specific region?
13:17 < ananke> gulzar: great, time to kick off a support ticket with them
13:17 < pingfloyd> sounds shady af
13:17 < aruns> fendur: Geo feature testing.
13:18 < aruns> I can set up an SSH browser proxy.
13:18 < fendur> aruns: you can't configure the feature to accept connections from some other country?
13:19 < mawk> no need to be ssh aruns
13:19 < mawk> you can find the most crappiest http proxy you can and it will work
13:19 < mawk> the most crappy
13:20 < aruns> Actually, that could work, thanks.
13:20 < MrElendig> or some dirt cheap vpn service
13:20 < aruns> I've found a tutorial from Nord VPN.
13:28 < BobbyPeru> hi, how can I add a permanent environment variable to my user in linux?
13:28 < pingfloyd> environment variables are global
13:29 < BobbyPeru> there are no per-user variables? how do i add a global one then?
13:29 < pingfloyd> global as in persistent through the session and all children
13:29 < pagios>  hi anyone understands STUN correctly?
13:29 < BobbyPeru> and between reboots
13:29 < mawk> ask your question pagios
13:29 < pingfloyd> ~/.profile is the best place for that in this case
13:30 < BobbyPeru> but isnt that just for bash and its processes? what if i start an application?
13:30 < pagios> mawk, how is the packet forwwarded from the router to the inside network? how does it know which clinet to fwd to?
13:30 < mawk> didn't you ask the same question some time ago ? I vaguely remember the wording
13:30 < pingfloyd> and sh
13:31 < BobbyPeru> pingfloyd: ok so its not really global, just for bash and shells?
13:31 < mawk> the router has connection information for the port, pagios
13:31 < mawk> it typically lasts 30 seconds
13:31 < pingfloyd> global means scope
13:31 < mawk> it knows which client it originated from to be able to send back packets
13:31 < BobbyPeru> pingfloyd: and the scope is bash and anything i run with sh?
13:32 < pingfloyd> normally you have to export variables to keep them
13:32 < pagios> mawk, so mainly internal-client-a sends some udp packets from intranet to where?
13:32 < fendur> exporting them makes them "environmental" I thought.
13:32 < BCMM> BobbyPeru: add the variable to your bashrc, and it will be set when bash is loaded
13:32 < pingfloyd> environment variables are different there
13:32 < BobbyPeru> BCMM thanks, but im not interested only in bash
13:32 < BCMM> pingfloyd: am i misunderstanding his question, or are you?
13:32 < mawk> pagios: to the internet ?
13:32 < BCMM> ah, ok
13:32 < mawk> otherwise you wouldn't need STUN
13:32 < pagios> both clients are being nat
13:32 < pagios> clientA and clientB
13:32 < pingfloyd> BCMM: his question was ambigious
13:32 < pagios> so clientA sends udp packets to real ip of clientB
13:33 < mawk> yeah so STUN is useful to discover the public port mapping
13:33 < pingfloyd> BCMM: was how to make an environment variable permanent
13:33 < BCMM> BobbyPeru: there is also .profile, which should be loaded by most shells i think
13:33 < pagios> it reached the firewallB and then how is it fwded to clientB and not clientC?
13:33 < BCMM> BobbyPeru: obviously, avoid using bash-specific syntax in that file
13:33 < djph> pagios: you'd usually have a STUN server sitting out somewhere it's not affected by NAT.
13:33 < mawk> STUN is done on a good known server which will tell the mapping in front of the NAT
13:33 < pagios> yea
13:33 < pagios> it just gives the ip
13:33 < pagios> not the port
13:33 < BobbyPeru> thanks BCMM, but im not interested in shells only
13:33 < BobbyPeru> how can i make that variable visible to ALL applications, not just bash and other shells.
13:34 < mawk> who told you that pagios ?
13:34 < pingfloyd> if you mean when launching within your DE
13:34 < pingfloyd> you have to set the variables in it if you're using a DM
13:34 < mawk> it tells the port
13:34 < pagios> so initially clientA sends packets to stun server asking for its ip and port?
13:34 < pagios> who opens that port?
13:34 < BCMM> BobbyPeru: basically, how to set variables at login depends on what you're starting at login
13:35 < mawk> the NAT firewall opens it
13:35 < tx> /etc/environment can be your friend too
13:35 < mawk> the client chooses a local port, by using it to send data to the internet the firewall memoizes a mapping between the inside port and a public port on the gateway
13:35 < BobbyPeru> tx how does that work? it sounds like what im looking for
13:35 < fendur> BobbyPeru: digital ocean has some maybe useful reading: https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-read-and-set-environmental-and-shell-variables-on-a-linux-vps
13:35 < pagios> ok so as clientA it asks for its public ip and starts sending udp packets to that external ip ?
13:35 < mawk> why would client A send packets to itself ?
13:35 < mawk> client A asks for its public IP and port, and sends that to the other client
13:35 < BobbyPeru> i mean even Windows can do this and it just works :) linux has to have the same functionality
13:35 < pagios> so it sends it to what ip ?
13:36 < BCMM> BobbyPeru: if you're talking about logging in to a terminal, you configure your default shell. if you want to set env vars for a graphical session, the answer will depend on your desktop environment
13:36 < mawk> I don't know, your application decides
13:36 < tx> BobbyPeru: /etc/environment - This file is specifically meant for system-wide environment variable settings. It is not a script file, but rather consists of assignment expressions, one per line. Specifically, this file stores the system-wide locale and path settings.
13:36 < mawk> if both clients are behind NAT they need some kind of rendez-vous point
13:36 < tx> I would not use it for per-user things
13:36 < pagios> i get the ip thing but not the port
13:36 < BobbyPeru> tx, is there something equivalent for per-user?
13:37 < tx> that depends on, as BCMM said, what you use
13:37 < BobbyPeru> BCMM: neither i guess. i was talking for the user or the system as whole. not specific to any particular software
13:37 < mawk> STUN servers sends back to client A a (ip, port) doublet that allows anyone on the internet to contact client A
13:37 < BobbyPeru> ok so there is no common way for all linux systems?
13:37 < mawk> as long as the mapping is alive
13:37 < tx> not really, but you can make some assumptions that cover most / all users
13:37 < BCMM> BobbyPeru: if you want an environment where you don't have to think about how to configure different desktop shells because there *is* only one desktop shell available, Windows may indeed be the right choice :)
13:38 < pagios> doublet?
13:38 < BobbyPeru> BCMM: again i'm not worrying about desktop shells, just environment variables..
13:38 < pingfloyd> bazinga!
13:38 < interrobangd> can somebody write a udev rule for me? :D
13:38 < pagios> yea i dont get that mapping
13:38 < mawk> couple pagios ?
13:38 < mawk> pair if you wanrt
13:38 < interrobangd> want to do that during boot: echo 800 | sudo tee /sys/class/drm/card0/gt_max_freq_mhz /sys/class/drm/card0/gt_boost_freq_mhz
13:38 < BobbyPeru> tx: i think /etc/environment is the closest thing to what im looking for then
13:38 < mawk> the mapping isn't something related to STUN, it's just how NAT works
13:38 < BCMM> pingfloyd: i apologise for doubting you - seems like this question changes every time we look at it...
13:39 < pagios> i know that say clientA wants to connect to webserver on the internet, it sets source port 12345 and destination ip webserver/port 80
13:39 < mawk> you talk to someone on the internet, the gateway maps some port on the public ip to your (lan ip, lan port) couple
13:39 < pagios> webserver replies to public ip and port 56789,
13:39 < pagios> 56789 gets translated bac kto 123456 into internal ip
13:39 < mawk> yes
13:39 < mawk> so you understood it
13:39 < mawk> that's it
13:39 < MrElendig> interrobangd: there are better ways to solve that  than echo | sudo
13:39 < interrobangd> MrElendig, yes udev :)
13:40 < pagios> its different in stun
13:40 < pagios> as both are behind nat
13:40 < MrElendig> sounded like you wanted to literally run that command in the udev rule
13:40 < interrobangd> MrElendig, or what do you mean
13:40 < pagios> in the above case webserver is on public ip
13:40 < mawk> you need a rendez-vous point
13:40 < pagios> whats that? a stun server is a rendez vous?
13:41 < interrobangd> MrElendig, no, want to change module settings like sudo tee
13:41 < pagios> mawk, did you get my concern?
13:42 < djph> pagios: STUN server is somewhere out on the internet, clients A and B both connect to it saying "heyo, this is my identifying info if someone wants to connect to me"
13:42 < pagios> right
13:43 < djph> IIRC, it's how teamviewer works.  you give the partner ID (123 456 789) to the STUN server, and it goes "oh right, they're PUB.IP:port"
13:43 < pagios> but that open port mapping on clientA is done how
13:43 < MrElendig> ATTR{the/path}="your value"
13:43 < djph> when clientA connects out
13:43 < pagios> when clientA connects out to STUN you mean
13:43 < pagios> over UDP
13:43 < pagios> it opens a port on the firewall
13:43 < fendur> pagios: I always thought the client opened a tunnel.
13:44 < pagios> no tunnels here
13:44 < fendur> pagios: how do you know? I'm talking about teamviewer, for example. I thought it opened a tunnel to a server somewhere, and others could connect through that tunnel. i.e., no need to alter router configuration.
13:44 < djph> pagios: correct, it says "I'm clientA, identified as "123 456 789".  Listening on IP:port"
13:45 < pagios> so mainly you are saying, clientA opens a connection to stun using UDP port 12345, now stun tells client your ip is 1.1.1.1 and u are using 12345, keep that port open and if i get a request for you i will pass these info to clientB. so clientB asks for it and connects to 1.1.1.1 and port 12345?
13:45 < pagios> right?
13:46 < djph> Not really, "clientA" doesn't really care what its public IP is.
13:46 < pagios> it does!
13:46 < pagios> tell me the workflow
13:46 < interrobangd> MrElendig, thank you
13:47 < djph> however, when clientB provides the STUN server with whatever identifying string it needs to get to "clientA", the server tells clientB "oh, they're over at this public IP address, and listening on whatever port"
13:47 < pagios> how is that port kept alive and open
13:47 < pagios> its because the clientA keeps an open udp connection
13:47 < pagios> and that udp connection is going to the stun
13:47 < djph> ah, take it back, everything passes thru the STUN server
13:48 < pagios> but anyone can connect to it
13:48 < djph> misread the document
13:48 < djph> so it's clientA "heyo, I'm here" -> STUN ;; clientB "heyo I wanna talk to clientA" -> STUN -> ClientA
13:49 < pagios> ...
13:50 < djph> Everything between clientsA and B passes through the STUN server
13:51 < autopsy> I set up a Cisco 831 router over a RJ-45 to serial cable connection a while ago. Typed all those commands to do NAT and IP packet forwarding to the internal machines. Fun stuff.
13:52 < pagios> NO NO NO djph
14:01 < fendur> pagios: my read of the docs suggests port opening and forwarding is not the responsibility of stun
14:02 < fendur> but I'm not sure if that's even the issue.
14:03 < djph> fendur: yeah, I'm a little confused myself now
14:12 < kvoz> Hi, Linux newbie here. Can someone explain to me how a machine with 2 cpus can report "load average: 13.98, 12.87, 12.96". What do those numbers represent?
14:12 < MrElendig> man uptime
14:12 < superkuh> system load avg over the last 1, 5 and 15 minutes
14:13 < MrElendig> wikipedia also has a page on it
14:13 < MrElendig> superkuh: yes, but what is "system load" :p
14:13 < MrElendig> the man page explains that
14:13 < superkuh> That wasn't his question.
14:13 < superkuh> His question was why there were 3 on a two cpu system.
14:14 < superkuh> But yeah, I just copied from $ man top
14:14 < ayecee> kvoz: the average number of processes ready to run at each scheduling interval in 1, 5, and 15 minute intervals.
14:15 < jim> well I'm not sure whether that was his exact question... but I am sure load figures prominently, and knowing what it is, will directly inform his question
14:16 < solidfox> jeffree, didju fix your vm?
14:18 < kvoz> Thanks, but I am still a bit confused. The man page says "so a load average of 1 means a single CPU system is loaded all the time while on a 4 CPU system it means it was idle 75% of the time". So if my system has 2 CPUs, shouldn't 2 be max? How can it be 12-14?
14:18 < solidfox> kvoz, intel and amd have interesting cpus
14:18 < solidfox> kvoz, intel has their hyper threading. and amd has their APU stuff
14:18 < jhodrien> kvoz: It's a measure of queuing.
14:19 < jhodrien> Load average has no maximum.
14:19 < solidfox> kvoz, the core count might be different than what you expect anyway
14:19 < djph> kvoz: it means you're trying to do 6x as much as a CPU is capable of doing (note that if you have a dual-core with hyper-threading CPU, you have "4 cores" as far as the system is concerned)
14:19 < solidfox> kvoz, for example. a quadcore apu could have a total of 10 compute cores
14:19 < jhodrien> It doesn't even necessarily mean that your CPUs are fully occupied.
14:19 < djph> solidfox: 4 -> 10? how's *that* work out?
14:20 < solidfox> djph, because the APU has 4 cpu cores and 6 gpu cores
14:20 < djph> solidfox: ah, wait, APUs use the GPU cores for CPU work too?
14:20 < ayecee> no
14:20 < ayecee> solidfox is babbling
14:21 < solidfox> just saying, core-count is somewhat ambiguous
14:21 < ayecee> kvoz: think of load average as the average number of people standing in line at mcdonalds
14:22 < djph> ^ including the person(s) being handled by the cashier right now.
14:23 < solidfox> I love mcdonalds
14:23 < kvoz> so I can't really say if the load is high or close to maximum capacity? I can only say if it's higher or lower than earlier?
14:23 < rascul> solidfox what country are you in?
14:23 < ayecee> kvoz: yes, pretty much
14:24 < solidfox> rascul, rascul chad
14:24 < MrElendig> djph: only if you are doing hsa
14:24 < MrElendig> or similar
14:24 < ayecee> kvoz: you can have a lot of people in line, and it just means they take longer to get serviced, but they still get serviced
14:25 < rascul> solidfox interesting, i wonder how mcdonalds there compares to the crap they have in the states
14:25 < MrElendig> Mc is about as crap no matter where you are in the world
14:25 < ayecee> look at the foodies, their noses in the air
14:25 < MrElendig> here they have been cought breaking every basic hygiene requirement and with illegal meat etc multiple times
14:26 < ayecee> get on your fixie and go pick up some kale at whole foods, hippies
14:26 < rascul> eww kale is disgusting and i can't even install linux on it
14:26 < solidfox> rascul, I've only went to mcdonalds while traveling
14:26 < solidfox> rascul, in the usa...
14:26 < rascul> solidfox almost anything is better than mcdonalds ;)
14:26 < solidfox> rascul, I like the french fries a lot. but everyone has a different opinion.
14:30 < djph> MrElendig: hsa?
14:34 < MrElendig> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterogeneous_System_Architecture
14:35 < MrElendig> one of those features amd hyped up trough the skies and then dropped the ball on
14:35 < MrElendig> when it came to software/driver support
14:35 < djph> no surprise there
14:36 < djph> I get the feeling that the "HSA Software" in teh page is secretly doing all the work shown in non-hsa ... but see, now we made it a black-box, so it's better!
14:36 < jim> does heterogeneous system architecture mean the same as multiarch in debian does?
14:37 < MrElendig> there is a gh repo, but it has not been touched in years
14:37 < MrElendig> jim: no, it is a hardware thing
14:37 < MrElendig> shared resources between cpu and gpu
14:37 < interrobangd> can anybody help why my UDEV rule not work? it dont set the value to 300: KERNEL=="card0", SUBSYSTEM=="drm", ATTR{gt_max_freq_mhz}="300", ATTR{gt_boost_freq_mhz}="300"
14:37 < jim> oh ok, so it's something that the mobo and cpu mfgrs havemn
14:37 < jim> haven't given us?
14:38 < MrElendig> amd have implemented it in some chips, so has arm
14:47 < solidfox> lol https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/05/attention-pgp-users-new-vulnerabilities-require-you-take-action-now
14:48 < MrElendig> solidfox: html email: screwing people over since 1996
14:48 < MrElendig> solidfox: https://lists.gnupg.org/pipermail/gnupg-users/2018-May/060318.html
14:50 < solidfox> MrElendig, thanks for clearing this up for me.
14:50 < MrElendig> see the rest of that email thread too
14:51 < MrElendig> openpg is still secure, it is email clients sucking that is the problem
14:51 < MrElendig> good old view image by default etc
14:51 < solidfox> I used gpg in facebook messages a long time ago.
14:52 < solidfox> I was telling my best friend that I bought weed off of the silk road lol
14:52 < solidfox> then he accidentally pasted my plain text haha
14:52 < solidfox> good times
14:52 < solidfox> MrElendig, so basically, encrypting your messages yourself is still secure?
15:04 < solidfox> is that topic taboo
15:07 < ayecee> worse. it's in poor taste.
15:08 < rypervenche> solidfox: Still fine, yes.
15:08 < rypervenche> Or if you're using mutt or something like that, which uses gnupg on its own, it's fine.
15:09 < leeyaa> what about other email clients like mac mail or thunderbird ?
15:11 < revel> Hmm. LDFLAGS aren't at all expected to be the same globally, are they?
15:12 < rypervenche> leeyaa: Well, according to teh first link, both are vulnerable, however that second message from the mailing list suggests it's potentially not actually a problem. It will depend on the program's implementation of GPG.
15:14 < Psi-Jack> solidfox: ... Yeah. Maybe next time, hold that from IRC. :p
15:14 < solidfox> Psi-Jack, I'll hold it from ##linux
15:14 < solidfox> Psi-Jack, it is normal in ##econometrics
15:15 < leeyaa_> i guess ill ditch mac mail for mutt lol
15:15 < Psi-Jack> Well, seeings that drugs are off-topic on all of freenode... Yeah.
15:15 < solidfox> and other bitcoin channels. just not the official #bitcoin
15:22 < mawk> my network setup lib is making progress, here's some output you can get with the monitoring thingie: http://paste.suut.in/raw/8GDOz4pg.txt
15:22 < Psi-Jack> Well, maybe those /other/ channels need to have staff involvement and potential shutdown then. :)
15:22 < mawk> someone please find something useful to do with that
15:22 < mawk> no revel
15:26 < solidfox> Psi-Jack, as for the other channels, it is not concerning to me what might happen to them. I'm sure if they were informed of a problem after observation, that they would enforce the rules.
15:26 < solidfox> Psi-Jack, I won't mention it here again. thanks.
15:27 < deepfalcon> test
15:29 < Paddy_NI> I am running Ubuntu Mate 18.04 from a live USB on a Macbook Air (mid 2013) and I am trying to mount the internal SSD.  I have installed hfsplus, hfsprogs and hfsutils.  Unfortunately it still will not mount, I am guessing I require a reboot!  This would be pointless with a live usb.  Any ideas?
15:29 < Paddy_NI> I have also ran "sudo modprobe hfs" and hfsplus
15:33 < autopsy> Paddy_NI, msybe you're using the wrong device file name.
15:33 < autopsy> Paddy_NI, is it /dev/sda1 or something else?
15:33 < autopsy> Paddy_NI, you are sure it is HFS anyways?
15:34 < Paddy_NI> autopsy: Well the main volume if /dev/sda2, regarding the fs type, I am pretty sure it's hfs+ although I could be wrong
15:35 < Paddy_NI> It might well be apple fs
15:35 < Paddy_NI> Not 100% sure
15:36 < Paddy_NI> autopsy: According to cfdisk sda2 is "unknown"
15:36 < leeyaa> Paddy_NI: on my osx it says APFS
15:37 < Paddy_NI> leeyaa: That's the newer file system,
15:37 < Hejkki> hello. I have a file that ontains html code. Among it there is an asterisk mark * and what i'm trying to do is parse the html file. I have a bash script line similar to this: https://pastebin.com/TAssNmUA  and the problem is when the $data contains an * will it be replaced with all the files in the current directory
15:37 < Hejkki> how can i avoid this?
15:37 < Paddy_NI> leeyaa: It could be on this however I am not sure if linux can mount apfs
15:37 < Paddy_NI> It shows up as unknown anyway
15:38 < Paddy_NI> My fear is that I might have to attempt data recovery for this client
15:38 < leeyaa> Paddy_NI: you can mount it, but it is a pain
15:38 < Hejkki> so basically... how should i start scripting with strings whth "*"
15:38 < zapotah> Hejkki: escape the *
15:38 < leeyaa> maybe try http://az4n6.blogspot.bg/2018/01/mounting-apfs-image-in-linux.html
15:38 < Paddy_NI> leeyaa: Does it require the use of a commercial product?
15:38 < SoniEx2> do coredumps include open files (not sockets)?
15:39 < leeyaa> Paddy_NI: no, just apfs-fuse
15:39 < Hejkki> zapotah: i know that, but how woud you escape the html file?
15:39 < SoniEx2> or do I need to dump those separately?
15:39 < Hejkki> because the * is in the html file, not in my script
15:39 < autopsy> Hejkki, sed -i -e 's|*|\*|g' file.html
15:40 < Hejkki> autopsy: ok, trying that
15:40 < autopsy> Hejkki, be sure you aren't using * any where else for good reasons though they'll be escaped.
15:40 < jelly> autopsy: you probably want to escape the left side *
15:40 < Paddy_NI> leeyaa: Thank you for the help, I am going through those instructions now. Hopefully a reboot is not required
15:41 < Paddy_NI> Live USB
15:41 < SoniEx2> I really need to update quasselcore at some point...
15:41 < autopsy> jelly, sed -i -e 's|\*|\\*|g' file.html
15:42 < jelly> /o\
15:43 < NetTerminalGene> watch the video. google is collecting location data even without any simcard. they know if you are in car, where you go https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/technology/smartphones/accc-investigating-oracle-research-showing-google-users-android-phone-plan-data-to-spy/news-story/3ca0cdaa3cc6992d134355bd0b7fcf40
15:44 < jelly> that's how their traffic congestion thingy in maps work
15:44 < jelly> how is that any news
15:44 < lupine> so don't use googlified android
15:44 < triceratux> http://chronicle.su/science/tech/apple-deletes-apps-sharing-your-location-data-with-third-parties-only-we-can-have-it-says-apple/
15:44 < NetTerminalGene> australia started investigatiom
15:45 < jelly> straya so slow!
15:48 < greenit> hi, i have a hp-notebook with a clickpad, is it possible to use the hotspot in the upper left corner to enable/disable the pad? in the picture on this site is what i mean with "hotspot": https://www.support.hp.com/ee-en/document/c01983909
15:48 < greenit> this feature works in win10, but i don't know if it's possible to use in linux
15:50 < autopsy> Hejkki, sed -i -e 's|\*|\\*|g' file.html
15:50 < djph> greenit: tap it and see
15:51 < djph> but most 'custom gestures' on those pads are windows-specific (because of the driver)
15:51 < greenit> djph: it doesn't work, i've already tried it ;)   however, it was disabled by default in win10 too
15:52 < greenit> well, that's bad, it doesn't have a key for disabling the touchpad/clickpad
15:52 < djph> greenit: "mouse and touchpad" under preferences (or administration), you can usually just nuke it there.
15:53 < djph> (note, I hate touchpads, so)
15:54 < greenit> thanks for the info, but i don't have a mouse and only want to disable it while writing code and easily re-enable it again afterwards. seems like i need to define a custom key-combo for that
15:58 < djph> that could work too
16:00 < luc4> Hello! I’m controlling a device via serial connection sending data through echo. The device should also answer back and I would like to get the answers. So I keep the command “od -x < /dev/ttyS0” running. What I see is that while od is running, I can only send one command. Then any other command does not seem to work until I kill od. Any idea why?
16:02 < tdd1984> what does gzip -d mean?
16:02 < Dominian> man gzip
16:02 < tdd1984> "-d"
16:02 < tdd1984> Yea I think cloudflare is running it somehow on my server. Taking forever too.
16:02 < tdd1984> was just wondering what the -d meant
16:03 < leeyaa> wat
16:03 < ayecee> the gzip manpage can tell you
16:03 < rypervenche> tdd1984: -d --decompress --uncompress: Decompress.
16:03 < ayecee> or rypervenche can
16:03  * rypervenche is no longer liked.
16:03 < tdd1984> ok
16:04 < greenit> what if i configure the "RTCornerButton" synaptics option to be a hotkey for disabling/enabling the clickpad, will i be able to re-enable the clickpad with this area? i'm afraid not, i think the whole pad will be disabled, right?
16:04 < greenit> "LTCornerButton" *
16:04 < tdd1984> Just asking because it's been running for awhile and taking up 94 percent of my CPU cant' even access one of my sites.
16:05 < Dominian> well a 3 second search of man gzip
16:05 < Dominian> -d = decompress
16:05 < ayecee> Dominian can too, apparently
16:05 < ayecee> should see these continue to trickle in for a bit
16:05 < rypervenche> Any more takers?
16:06 < muhaha> Can anyone help me with LXC and openwrt? logfile: https://pastebin.com/XhgfntaT
16:06 < Dominian> rypervenche: ha.. totally missed where you said that already
16:07 < tdd1984> Dominian: I just seen it in whm where it says it is using 93 percent of my CPU
16:07 < Dominian> tdd1984: then .. call cloudflare?
16:08 < tdd1984> Dominian: Not worried about, my site has been go FASTER. But i was reading on cloudflare they do communicate with the gzip. I'll email them
16:08 < tdd1984> not in states at moment, in Philippines :)
16:08 < tdd1984> no wonder why I feel so disconnected haha
16:10 < lucasem> Does `time` (or libc `clock()`) include all child processes?
16:13 < rascul> lucasem it says so in the source http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/bash.git/tree/builtins/times.def#n28
16:14 < lucasem> rascul: thanks
16:16 < Paddy_NI> leeyaa: Did you have this issue "/home/ubuntu-mate/Desktop/apfs-fuse/ApfsLib/Util.cpp:44:10: fatal error: bzlib.h: No such file or directory #include <bzlib.h> compilation terminated."
16:17 < Paddy_NI> This seems to be the problem "bzlib.h"
16:20 < leeyaa> Paddy_NI: i dont use desktop
16:20 < Dreaman> terminal <;0
16:20 < Dreaman> :)
16:29 < Hermes> I don't know if this is the right channel for this, but I'm trying du make a hexdump of a datafile and I want the ascii display on the side, like xxd and hexdump -C provide, but I do not want unprintable characters to be represented by '.'.
16:29 < Hermes> I've tried to dig through the man pages for both, but I have yet to find how to change this behaviour.
16:29 < ayecee> what do you want them represented by
16:30 < Hermes> something like @ would work, ideally something in another color. I know the input is ascii only, so a non ascii character will work too
16:31 < Hermes> Only thing I've found is the Conversion strings and Colors part of the hexdump manpage
16:32 < Hermes> I could write this myself, but I would rather just use an existing tool.
16:32 < ssarah> I have error with service snpmd stasrt after an upgrade: Failed to start snpmd.service: Unit snpmd.service failed to load: No such file or directory.
16:32 < ssarah> But I can do /etc/init.d/snpmd start
16:32 < ssarah> and it seems happy
16:32 < ssarah> that's the relation between the two and how can i debug the service call?
16:34 < ayecee> what is snpmd?
16:34 < ayecee> it looks like a typo for snmpd
16:34 < ssarah> yes, sorry
16:34 < Psi-Jack> dyslexic snmpd. :)
16:34 < ayecee> could it by that you typo'd the service command as well?
16:35 < ssarah> ehrm i lost it already cause i purged it all before i asked here
16:35 < ssarah> i should memorize what the acronym  means to avoid this again
16:36 < ayecee> sample network parameters manager
16:36 < ssarah> liar XD
16:38 < Hermes> Alternativly, is there a version of `strings`  that only looks for zero terminated strings?
16:38 < Hermes> I guess I could grep for it :o
16:39 < Hermes> Oh
16:53 < Psi-Jack> heh
16:54 < Bandie> hah
16:59 < Psi-Jack> hoo-hah!
17:02 < Dominian> Psi-Jack: so.. my nextcloud cert renewed on May 12th
17:02 < Dominian> Psi-Jack: thing is.. I don't recall ever automating it lol
17:02 < Psi-Jack> heh
17:02 < Psi-Jack> Dominian: Magic!
17:02 < Dominian> Psi-Jack: apparently so
17:02 < Psi-Jack> Dominian: I finally finished automating mine completely.
17:03 < Dominian> Yeah
17:03 < Dominian> I need to
17:03 < Dominian> I only really use two certs right now.. nextcloud and my firewall
17:03 < Dominian> firweall is completely automated
17:03 < Psi-Jack> I only use 6 certs now. All bundled together as one, with wildcards. :)
17:03 < Psi-Jack> I used to have 70-something. :)
17:04 < Psi-Jack> post-factum|gone: Stop that, disable it, never do it.
17:04 < Dominian> Psi-Jack: yes the fact that we can do wildcardcerts now is nice
17:04 < Psi-Jack> Dominian: Most nice. :)
17:04 < Dominian> I could possibly automate the wildcard completely with my firweall
17:04 < Dominian> but.. that's something I need to look at...
17:04 < Dominian> as internally I use a subdomain of my main domain.
17:04 < Dominian> so..
17:04 < Dominian> yah
17:04 < Psi-Jack> Dominian: I just ended up making a wrapper around acme.sh and AWS S3.
17:05 < Dominian> ah
17:05 < Dominian> well as long as I can some how centrally store the cert for everything to pull from... might be pointless for me
17:05 < Dominian> but something to revisit at a later date
17:05 < Psi-Jack> acme-tool, you set one machine to handle maintaining the certs, and all other others just download from S3.
17:05 < Dominian> aye
17:05 < Dominian> guess I could use my local share storagwe on my tiny NAS to do it
17:05 < Psi-Jack> Eventually I'll make the tool work for other methods, but I wanted soemthing to just work. ;)
17:07 < Psi-Jack> Dominian: That and now, for internal certs, I have salt fully automating that. Pretty cool actually.
17:07 < Dominian> cool
17:07 < Psi-Jack> salt CA generated automatically, server certs generated and updated automatically every 90 days.
17:07 < Dominian> I'll have to hit on it later..
17:08 < Dominian> right now doing research to re-enable IPv6 and if it'd be worth it at home
17:08 < Psi-Jack> Heh
17:08 < Dominian> since the VPN I use now supports ipv6
17:08 < Dominian> apparently
17:08 < Psi-Jack> I've been IPv6 enabled for a while now. :)
17:08 < Dominian> I used to be
17:08 < Dominian> until I used a VPN
17:08 < Dominian> was just easier to disable ipv6 than try to work around it
17:09 < Psi-Jack> Eh. Dunno about that, but. For a while, I'd been using a VPN with AWS, which doesn't support IPv6. And then it did.
17:11 < Psi-Jack> Course, the funny part is. I don't even use the IPv6 over VPN at all.
17:12 < Dominian> heh
17:12 < Dominian> hence why I'm debating turning it back on
17:12 < Dominian> If it is even worth the hassle
17:12 < Dominian> Now, things like.. xbox.. it would help.. no need to do custom firweall rules for nat'ing
17:13 < Dominian> ipv6 would just 'work'
17:13 < Dominian> but how to quantify that ipv6 is even a 'plus' for xbox
17:13 < Psi-Jack> I mean, I can, and actually do use IPv6. Just not for my VPN links to my AWS and Vultr stuff.
17:13 < Dominian> lol
17:14 < Dominian> Ok I was wrong
17:14 < Dominian> they specifically do not support ipv6 at this time
17:15 < Psi-Jack> Pfft.. Fire! Fire! Fire! I wanna see 'em fry!
17:15 < Dominian> kind of makes sense if you think about it
17:15 < Dominian> You'd have to tunnel all of your ipv6 traffic over the tunnel.. although it's no different than what I'm doing now
17:15 < Dominian> could get tricky
17:17 < Psi-Jack> Heh, funny how post-factum PM's me after telling him to disable his away nick. :)
17:17 < Dominian> heh
17:19 < post-factum> bringing pms into public is so mature
17:20 < ayecee> sarcasm is cruise control for cool
17:20 < kfrench> capslock no longer cool?
17:20 < Dominian> The pen is blue.
17:20 < ayecee> capslock will always be cool
17:20 < Psi-Jack> Banana phone!
17:20 < kfrench> whew
17:20 < notmike> Lol capslock xD
17:21 < notmike> Just take slap out, shift left, and then slap it on the end.
17:21 < notmike> Hahahaha
17:22 < ayecee> the pen is mightier
17:22 < x86-64> What signal does Linux send to a process when a #BR exception is raised by the BOUND instruction?
17:22 < ayecee> what is a #BR exception
17:22 < Psi-Jack> The BAZINGA exception.
17:23 < x86-64> x86 processor exception raised when a BOUND check fails
17:23 < dgurney> it's an exception that runs whenever you tweet about brazil using that hashtag
17:23 < derooz> hey, does sambda by default share the home directory? How can you change that?
17:23 < ayecee> what is a BOUND check
17:23 < Psi-Jack> dgurney: Or that.
17:23 < x86-64> ayecee, http://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/BOUND.html
17:23 < notmike> x86 is irrelevant
17:23 < derooz> It does share the home directory, unless I did something wrong
17:23 < x86-64> Array boundchecks in one instruction ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
17:24 < Psi-Jack> SysGhos_: Nickname change noise detected.
17:26 < x86-64> So does anyone know what signal is sent, if any?
17:26 < ayecee> survey says no
17:26 < notmike> x86 is no longer supported in it's irrelevancy
17:26 < dgurney> lol
17:26 < ayecee> shush you
17:27 < x86-64> can i not get a serious answer >_>
17:27 < ayecee> my answer was serious
17:27 < ayecee> it's just not the answer you want
17:27 < Psi-Jack> x86-64: From notmike? Almost never. From ayecee, most times.
17:27 < SysGhos_> Psi-Jack: aw... well... stoopid IRC client having a weird focus on nick field by default. Scroll the mouse wheel and it goes nuts.
17:27 < Psi-Jack> What.... IRC client would do... that?
17:28 < SysGhos_> kde's konversation. Usually don't do that, but since last update... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
17:28  * x86-64 smacks notmike around a bit with a large RDRAND
17:28 < Psi-Jack> Hmmm.. Never... Had that kind of issue with konversation. Kill it with fire, naplam preferred. :)
17:28 < derooz> how do you restart a background job? Rather than just manually killing and then starting again?
17:28 < notmike> Only students doing hw use x86 :P Hey Psi-Jack I help the community!
17:29 < x86-64> notmike, true.
17:29 < Psi-Jack> notmike: Community service? :p
17:29 < x86-64> But i'm writing an IRC bot in x86-64 assembly because i'm insane. So i'm still curious :D
17:29 < SysGhost> I have to keep refocusing the main window to scroll it. As soon as I switch focus to another window, konversations focus resets back to nick field again
17:29 < x86-64> I'm also vowing to not use any C bindings, only syscalls, so i'm insane^2
17:29 < uplime> derooz: a restart usually implies that the service was stopped first
17:30 < derooz> So, like, a restart command, to save time
17:30 < ayecee> insane as in brain damaged
17:30 < x86-64> ayecee, probably :D
17:30 < uplime> derooz: restart commands usually kill it off and then start it back up
17:30 < x86-64> but then how do i understand assembly...
17:30 < uplime> it depends on the service and the system controlling it if a restart command is available
17:30 < derooz> uplime: So is there a restart command? It's a python script
17:31 < uplime> derooz: re-read what I just said
17:31 < derooz> alright
17:31 < jim> what is it you want to restart?
17:32 < derooz> a python script
17:32 < uplime> you have to give more details than than
17:32 < derooz> uplime: OK thanks for your help. I don't know very well yet how these things work
17:32 < uplime> "a python script" is meaningless
17:32 < ayecee> it is you that is meaningless
17:32 < autopsy> OIt's a process not a script.
17:32 < derooz> wow. I wonder why. I thought that's a specific application.
17:32 < uplime> ayecee: :/
17:33 < uplime> python can be a specific application, yes
17:33 < uplime> but that doesn't affect how the process is running, or what commands are available to it
17:33 < jim> well what you can do is wrap it in another script that calls the script you want to restart, and puts it in a loop... then when you want to restart it, you somehow have to get it to exit
17:34 < jim> or you can send the python interpreter running it a signal
17:34 < jim> then because of the outer script, it will just start up again
17:35 < lnslbrty> Is there any way to bypass a "safe" chroot (cd path; chroot .) besides fchdir() and chroot back?
17:36 < derooz> How do SSH sessions work. I was connected, started a process, disconnected, and connected again, and that process doesn't show under "ps" But I know that it is still running
17:36 < uplime> how do you know its still running?
17:37 < derooz> because my nfc reader works, the buzzer beeps :P
17:38 < derooz> is there options to ps to show all the processes??
17:38 < ayecee> yes
17:43 < derooz> why are processes from other sessions not there? Why do I have to keep the SSH client open? Because once I reconnected, the program no longer wrote information to the file. I.e. it writes information to a file, then after reconnecting, the file was no longer gettting the information written to it. Why would that be?
17:43 < prussian> is there anyway to set up some system time change listener that isn't polling and comparing system time vs a monotonic timer?
17:43 < prussian> on linux obviously
17:44 < ayecee> what should it do instead?
17:45 < Dreaman> kill proccess
17:45 < prussian> https://lkml.org/lkml/2010/9/16/405 hmm
17:45 < easy_ref123> trying to install an rpm. Failed dependencies: libc.so.6
17:45 < Dreaman> :)
17:45 < easy_ref123> I have /usr/lib64/libc.so
17:45 < Dreaman> rpm sucks
17:45 < easy_ref123> what's the significance of the .6?
17:46 < ayecee> the abi version number
17:46 < ayecee> or something
17:46 < derooz> Dreaman: is that for me?
17:46 < Dreaman> no
17:46 < easy_ref123> ayecee, how might I find the ABI for libc.so?
17:46 < jhodrien> easy_ref123: Installing an RPM onto what distro?
17:46 < prussian> at this time. libc.so.6 is probably a legacy thing
17:46 < ayecee> easy_ref123: i don't understand the question
17:47 < jim> try killing the rpm process with -TERM
17:47 < easy_ref123> Installing mysql-connector-odbc onto RHEL
17:47 < jhodrien> prussian: You insensitive sod.  It's current for CentOS.
17:47 < easy_ref123> mysql-connector-odbc.rpm*
17:47 < jim> -maybe- it will exit gracefully
17:47 < prussian> or maybe gnu libc's abi is just hyper stable I guess
17:47 < jim> if you need more current, maybe you need a bigger wire
17:47 < jhodrien> libc.so.6 is provided by the glibc package on RHEL 7.
17:48 < jhodrien> and on RHEL 6.
17:48 < kfrench> easy_ref123: just use yum to install the package from your OS instead of the rpm you downloaded
17:48 < Psi-Jack> Drawde: What "sucks" about rpm?
17:48 < prussian> it's had that soname forever
17:48 < jhodrien> And RHEL 5...
17:48 < ayecee> the letters. they're not even in alphabetical order.
17:49 < Drawde> I never said rpm sucks...
17:49 < ayecee> see, apt has that going for it
17:49 < ayecee> Psi-Jack tabfailed :(
17:49 < noodlepie> .debs are just as fast as rpms, and --no business interests-- :P
17:49 < Psi-Jack> Dreaman: What "sucks" about rpm?
17:50 < Psi-Jack> ayecee: I see that, thanks to you.
17:50 < noodlepie> rpm uses cpio, or at least used to 20 years ago
17:50 < easy_ref123> kfrench, I can't find the package, just the rpm as provided by mysql
17:50 < noodlepie> Psi-Jack, the captive market, get them people on Gentoo and Debian!
17:50 < Dreaman> is old
17:50 < Psi-Jack> Dreaman: So?
17:50 < dgurney> you're old
17:51 < noodlepie> I remember Slackware tar.gz packages before I learned to compile all my own stuff. I do that now with Gentoo, it makes it easy!
17:51 < Psi-Jack> I'm betting more he's young. :p
17:51 < kfrench> easy_ref123: It's called mysql-connector-odbc in my rhel6
17:51 < Dreaman> i use deb
17:51 < dgurney> guys, in case you haven't figured it out yet, noodlepie uses Gentoo!
17:51 < Psi-Jack> Dreaman: .deb is old
17:51 < Dreaman> ton intersing me rpm
17:51 < Dreaman> hahahah
17:51 < Dreaman> ok
17:51 < Trel> I had an issue a while back where I had to manually edit my X config to foribly define an amount of vram.  I can't remember what I did, anyone have any idea.  I know it involved adding a section to xorg's config.
17:52 < Psi-Jack> Dreaman: Also, you make little sense. :)
17:52 < noodlepie> You need the CPUze but if you have them, Gentoo is about as good as it gets. Debian's useful for older machines as it packages come pre-built!
17:52 < Psi-Jack> dgurney: Quick! Get the noose!
17:52 < Dreaman> i use ubuntu lts 18.04
17:52 < Psi-Jack> And the boiling vat of fine wine. Hanging into the boiling pot. :)
17:53 < uplime> noodlepie: definitely no holes in that logic!
17:53 < Dreaman> not debian
17:53 < noodlepie> dgurney, yeah, I love its support too, they are really helpful guys and all know it all as its as simple as it comes.
17:53 < kfrench> noodlepie: I thought Gentoo was good for older computers as it'll build optimized binaries specifically for you.
17:53 < Psi-Jack> Dreaman: You never really answered why "rpm sucks".
17:53 < triceratux> hrm new siduction ftw
17:53 < Dreaman> slow
17:54  * triceratux has a project for today
17:54 < Psi-Jack> Dreaman: Untrue. Do you have ANY facts, or just unfamiliar opinions?
17:54 < ayecee> Psi-Jack: stop picking fights
17:55 < Psi-Jack> Actually, I'm correcting a communication problem. :p
17:55 < uplime> hes a pretty well known troll, i don't think it will help much
17:55 < Dreaman> i install open suse fedora centos os
17:55 < ayecee> okay, stop doing that, because it looks like picking a fight.
17:55 < Dreaman> not good
17:56 < jim> what happened?\
17:56 < kfrench> malfunction
17:56 < Dreaman> use debian base system
17:56 < triceratux> Dreaman: yer doing it wrong. those are all solid distros
17:56 < ayecee> Dreaman made a flip remark about rpm, and Psi-Jack rode in with the cavalry to defend rpm
17:56 < derooz> why does reconnecting with SSH reset the jobs? Any way to reconnect to the original session???
17:56 < Dreaman> triceratux  for server
17:57 < Psi-Jack> derooz: No.
17:57 < Dreaman> not desktop
17:57 < Dreaman> and my laptop
17:57 < Psi-Jack> derooz: Though you can use screen and/or tmux.
17:57 < derooz> Psi-Jack: so it's a limitation of ssh?
17:57 < Psi-Jack> derooz: But most likely, you want to re-think how you're running these "jobs".
17:58 < jim> derooz, you can make a detachable session by running tmux or screen, then you can ssh back in and attach to the existing session
17:58 < ayecee> derooz: not ssh in particular, no.
17:58 < noodlepie> kfrench, If you can wait a week for compilations to complete, still you can share the built packages over your LAN for clients. I'm not sure there's much to optimize, beyond the common sense, after branch prediction/superscalar CPU hardware optimisations. Beneigth MMX and the obvious functional solutions that provide SSE up to version 4.2, there's only really FPU and DMA. Static compilation and templates of the merely functional
17:58 < noodlepie> is a land of Math and fun for all.
17:58 < derooz> not surprising, I'm a noob
17:58 < Dreaman> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/KbVsyfd6Nm/   this not work in fedora 1000%
17:58 < derooz> yup for my case I'd probably be better off using an arduino or something
17:59 < derooz> but anyway
17:59 < kfrench> noodlepie: indeed
17:59 < jim> derooz, and, the programs tmux and screen take some learning to get used to em
18:01 < jim> I got something like an arduino someone gave me
18:01 < rypervenche> dgurney: Aye, he mentions it every sentence, lol.
18:02 < pagios> stun works over udp right? the way it works is that clientA connects to a stun server asks for its ip and source port, and that connection creates a nat rule in the router in clientA side. now clientB wants to connect to clientA so it asks for this info from the stun and then clientB connects to public ip of clientA and the port in that natting table, routerA detects that the port is for clientA and formwards it inside to
18:02 < pagios> <pagios> the internal network? is this how it works?
18:06 < plexigras> how can i do `$(sleep 5 && echo 'hey') && othercmd` but not print `hey` if `othercmd` takes less then 5 seconds?
18:07 < ayecee> sleep 5 && echo 'hey' || othercmd
18:07 < ayecee> because of how logic shortcutting works
18:07 < kfrench> plexigras: run othercmd under "time" and then look at the output of time and say hey if it was > 5sec
18:07 < ayecee> err, wait.
18:07 < Exagone313> Hi, is there anyone knowing since when we got libc6 (from glibc)?  When did it switch from libc5 to libc6?  I think it's around 2000 but I'm not finding a release date for this ABI version
18:08 < ayecee> Exagone313: a loong time ago, yes
18:08 < plexigras> is there a way to just kill the subshell?
18:08 < kfrench> kill %1 maybe
18:09 < plexigras> what is %1?
18:09 < Psi-Jack> jobspec 1
18:09 < kfrench> What he/she said
18:09 < Psi-Jack> jobs; shows what %#'s are running or paused.
18:10 < kfrench> plexigras: I think you're looking for the timeout command
18:10 < kfrench> /usr/bin/timeout
18:12 < Exagone313> darn I use %1 and %2 a lot for the fg command, but I didn't know it could be used for other commands
18:12 < Psi-Jack> heh
18:12 < Exagone313> that's right kill is a shell builtdin
18:12 < Exagone313> builtin*
18:12 < kfrench> Exagone313: or even "bg %2"
18:13 < Exagone313> huh?
18:13 < kfrench> Take job %2 and continue running it in the background, returning the prompt back immediatly
18:13 < Psi-Jack> bg = background
18:13 < Psi-Jack> fg = foreground
18:14 < plexigras> oh this is cool
18:14 < Psi-Jack> This is so 1990's. :)
18:14 < Exagone313> I see
18:14 < Psi-Jack> And yet... Perfectly still relevant.
18:15 < Exagone313> I'm not sure what bg does, because if I take htop it does not print the output (maybe it sends a signal and htop understands it?)
18:16 < kfrench> Exagone313: sleep 20, then ^z it.  Then bg %1
18:16 < kfrench> htop might be weird as you'd be running an interactive program in the background.
18:16 < Voovode> Can i stop replacing tab title when sshing into another machine or when im just navigating directories? checked .zsh and .bashrc, both empty
18:20 < Psi-Jack> Voovode: "tab title?" Neeeed iiiiinput.
18:20 < kfrench> Voovode: xterm has a allowTitleOps option that you could disable
18:20 < Voovode> Psi-Jack hahah, basically i tried removing all options/functions, still gives me title
18:21 < Psi-Jack> Exagone313: tail a log file with -F (or -f), Ctrl+Z it, bg it. Do something to make the log populate more.
18:21 < Voovode> something is updating it after .zshrc
18:21 < Psi-Jack> ...
18:21 < Psi-Jack> Voovode: Vague input detected.
18:23 < LinuxGuy0> How do I get drivers for  i40e driver from the yum repo? I saw there are version differences between CentOS 7.3 and 7.4 and I want to update the driver to the version in 7.4, but I don't see an official repo package for it
18:23 < Exagone313> Psi-Jack: sh -c 'sleep 5; echo test' was easier
18:24 < kfrench> LinuxGuy0: Wouldn't the drivers be in the kernel?
18:24 < LinuxGuy0> sry im a newb, so the driver gets updated with the kernel update?
18:24 < kfrench> indeed
18:24 < Psi-Jack> "sorry" not "sry"
18:24 < forestbits> If I have an ethernet interface named enp18s0f1, what does the f represent? According to https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/master/src/udev/udev-builtin-net_id.c#L20, it has to do with multi-function PCI devices. What is that, specifically?
18:25 < LinuxGuy0> so if i want to use the newer driver on my kernel, I can download the intel driver and compile it for my version kernel?
18:25 < benjwadams> Is there such a thing as TCP "NOP" flooding?
18:25 < Exagone313> it depends, what's i40e for?
18:25 < LinuxGuy0> Intel X710 driver
18:25 < forestbits> My actual problem: I have a server with 4 physical ethernet ports but it lists 8 interfaces, and I am trying to understand why.
18:25 < Exagone313> which is..?
18:25 < benjwadams> I keep getting tons of TCP nop requests from google cloud domains
18:25 < LinuxGuy0> 10g card
18:25 < Exagone313> ethernet card ok
18:25 < LinuxGuy0> yes
18:25 < kfrench> LinuxGuy0: You're best just downloading the newer kernel rpm from v7.4 and installing it in your 7.3
18:26 < Psi-Jack> Mmmmmm 10G.
18:26 < LinuxGuy0> theres 100g in the other port :)
18:26 < Exagone313> it's probably bundled with linux and you don't have anything to do, except updating the kernel (depends to your distro)
18:26 < kfrench> LinuxGuy0: If you weren't aware that the driver was in the kernel package, then you're probably not ready to build your own kernels.
18:26 < Voovode> Psi-Jack oki, so the remote bashrc renames my tab title :>
18:26 < Psi-Jack> Best bet.. run a full yum upgrade. Everything in 7.4 is compatible with 7.3
18:26 < Psi-Jack> Voovode: Tab title in *WHAT*
18:26 < LinuxGuy0> haha fair enough, thank you kfrench/exagone313/Psi-Jack
18:27 < Voovode> Psi-Jack Terminator
18:27 < kfrench> LinuxGuy0: Or do what Psi said and update the whole thing to 7.4.  I ass-u-med you had a good reason to not do that.
18:27 < Psi-Jack> So, a terminal emulator. That's finally something.
18:27 < Psi-Jack> There is NEVER a good reason /not/ to do that. :p
18:27 < Exagone313> LinuxGuy0: also note that your distro chooses what kernel modules (drivers) to be present
18:27 < Voovode> hah
18:27 < Exagone313> are present*
18:28 < kfrench> Psi-Jack: "good", yes.  There are lots of bad reasons though
18:29 < Psi-Jack> No, there are no bad reasons.
18:29 < kfrench> Psi-Jack: "Because the boss says so" is a good "bad" reason.
18:29 < Psi-Jack> Wrong.
18:29 < Psi-Jack> The boss is stupid and should be corrected.
18:29 < kfrench> mostly true, but it doesn't always get you your updates
18:30 < Psi-Jack> That doesn't mean it's a bad reason, either.
18:30 < kfrench> Sounds pretty bad to me
18:30 < Psi-Jack> The fault is on $boss being stupid, nothing else.
18:31 < plexigras> how can i kill a subshell like this `(a && kill b) & (b && kill a)`?
18:31 < kfrench> We can't all fire our boss
18:31 < Psi-Jack> The big thing about CentOS/RHEL is, there are never any breaking changes in minor version updates.
18:31 < Psi-Jack> kfrench: Sure you can. :)
18:32 < Psi-Jack> Fire  your boss (if he doesn't leave himself), is you getting new $job and firing former $boss as a result. Hehe
18:32 < kfrench> Psi-Jack: We live in different worlds.  I accept that your reality is different than mine, and thus you have a perfectly logical/valid thought process.
18:33 < ayecee> nice
18:34 < Psi-Jack> kfrench: Well, that is very logically valid and surrealistic. Thank you. :)
18:34 < plexigras> is there a way to do something like this? `(a && kill b) & (b && kill a)`
18:34 < Psi-Jack> wut?
18:34 < ayecee> plexigras: what should that do, in your mind?
18:35 < kfrench> plexigras: I think that's pretty convoluted.  You'll have to explain better what you're trying to do.
18:36 < Psi-Jack> The sampling as-is does not have any context, or concept, or... Well... Anything useful. Details required.
18:37 < solidfox> plexigras, are you trying to say that you want to kill process b when you start a, and kill process a when you start b?
18:37 < plexigras> i want to run a command and stop it after some time so like `y(){(a && y) & sleep 5 && kill %1 && y}` but if `a` finishes in less then 5 seconds i want to stop the sleep command
18:37 < solidfox> plexigras, or should it kill the other process after the first one ends?
18:37 < Dagmar> plexigras: The answer is no
18:38 < solidfox> I'm even more confused now
18:38 < Dagmar> plexigras: ...in part because kill's exit status is only going to change if a process is missing entirely
18:38 < solidfox> oh well
18:38 < Psi-Jack> plexigras: .. And why ... do  you ... Want... This?
18:38 < plexigras> i want to run two things and when the first one stops i want to also and the other one
18:39 < solidfox> plexigras, I know of an example of this happening already
18:39 < Psi-Jack> You're making a rabit hole?
18:39 < solidfox> but it might be different in nature
18:39 < solidfox> yes | sudo apt upgrade
18:39 < plexigras> i'm already deep down the rabit hole
18:39 < solidfox> the yes command prints "y" indefinitely
18:39 < solidfox> but it will end when apt ends
18:39 < solidfox> when used like this
18:39 < Psi-Jack> plexigras: And you shouldn't be. There's definitely viable better options than doing wierd and unusual ... things...
18:40 < plexigras> i'm sure there is but im not sure what that would be
18:40 < uplime> can you not apt upgrade -y?
18:40 < solidfox> uplime, it was just an example.
18:40 < kfrench> a&; b&; lines=`jobs -l | wc -l`; while [ "$lines" = "2" ]; then sleep 1; done; kill %1; kill %2
18:40 < solidfox> plexigras, what is your end goal though
18:40 < Psi-Jack> What are you /really/ trying to actually do, in general terms, why, and what problems are you trying to solve?
18:41 < uplime> it seems like a silly example
18:41 < kfrench> I guess you'll need to update lines inside the loop too
18:41 < solidfox> uplime, you can also just hit "y" key when the program asks you for a confirmation.
18:42 < kfrench> uplime: I'm no apt user, but what about "yes | apt upgrade"?
18:42 < plexigras> it's not so easy to explain
18:42 < solidfox> lmao
18:42 < Psi-Jack> Sure it is.
18:43 < ayecee> there is no spoon
18:43 < Psi-Jack> Break it down into less overly complicated parts, since you're overengineering something.
18:43 < solidfox> kfrench, actually, that's what he's responding to. I used yes | apt upgrade as an example.
18:43 < plexigras> i want to restart a command but with a liddle bit of overlap
18:43 < kfrench> solidfox: Sorry.  I missed that part.
18:43 < solidfox> kfrench, nbd
18:43 < solidfox> sorry
18:43 < solidfox> kfrench, no big deal
18:43 < Bru-> Hmmm...Im trying to install Hass.io via docker, but the container doesnt want to stay started. Im using Linux Mint 18.3 and getting docker-ce via the ubuntu xenial stable repo
18:43 < tlhonmey> Anybody here know where monitor edid information gets parsed?  Xorg?  Kernel?  Somewhere else?  I've got a possible security bug but I'm not sure where it should go...
18:44 < ayecee> xorg
18:44 < revel> kfrench: "while x; then y"?
18:44 < tlhonmey> ayecee: thanks.
18:44 < revel> kfrench: Shouldn't it be "while x; do y"?
18:44 < plexigras> so i want to kill `a` after 10 seconds but restart `a` after 5 or `a` or after a finished
18:45 < kfrench> revel: Syntax is an exercise left to the reader.
18:45 < inthl> assuming I compile some software, say the linux kernel or a webserver or whatever on some processor like a 64bit AMD CPU. can I use the very same binary on another host, which is 64bit as well, but with an intel CPU ?
18:46 < tlhonmey> plexigras: log its PID when you start it up and the rest is just timers and maybe a couple of calls to ps.
18:46 < inthl> or could one assume that gcc compiles some optimizations for the system it was build on, so that one shall compile the files again on the other hosts
18:46 < revel> inthl: If you compile with -march=native, then don't expect much.
18:46 < tlhonmey> inthl: that depends on your gcc settings.
18:46 < tlhonmey> see -march and -mtune
18:46 < kfrench> inthl: In general, what you're saying should work.  There may be other reasons it won't work on the other host though
18:47 < revel> If it needs some libs you don't bring over to the old system, then it also won't work. And for the kernel, that depends on how you configure it.
18:47 < tlhonmey> The default is to compile for "generic" which should run on everything.
18:47 < revel> s/old/other/
18:48 < inthl> well I have not set anything specific, but the kernel itself was a bad example - I do compile it on every host, no matter what. but other software maybe not. when I have say 10 hosts it is kinda annoying to make clean, configure, and so on...instead of just do make install one more time. the other software aka depencies should be the very same
18:49 < tlhonmey> inthl: As long as gcc isn't tuning for a specific processor, then it's usually just a matter of making sure the same libraries are available, or static linking it.
18:49 < kfrench> inthl: The most correct solution is to turn your binary into a package (rpm, deb, whatever) and install the package on each host.
18:50 < Dagmar> Are you guys *really* debating whether or not gcc can compile binaries that will run on more than one machine?
18:50 < inthl> kfrench, well that would not change the binary
18:50 < inthl> no, whether it does make difference in performance
18:50 < inthl> AMD xyz and Intel Xeon as an example do not have the very same instruction sets
18:50 < kfrench> Dagmar: I thought he question is "will", not "can"
18:51 < Dagmar> I would have thought the existance of just a ton of Linux distributions with pre-compiled binary packages available would have made this bloody obvious
18:51 < Dagmar> kfrench: Oh that's easy then
18:51 < Dagmar> If you don't know how it works, then you're not qualified to be doing it.
18:51 < Psi-Jack> Had plexigras said anything useful yet? Heh
18:52 < ayecee> lol
18:52 < bls> what? we shouldn't be using superstition to make engineering decisions?
18:52 < ayecee> but tradition!
18:53 < Dagmar> Thousands upon thousands of Gentoo users learning (eventually) that they've been wasting their time
18:53 < Psi-Jack> Lol
18:54 < plexigras> Psi-Jack: yes but i'm still to incompetent to get it working
18:54 < kfrench> Dagmar: scroll up to my short conversation with noodlepie
18:54 < Dagmar> No thanks.  I've seen enough of that guy
18:54 < kfrench> lol
18:54 < plexigras> Psi-Jack: i want to do something like `(load) && x="1" &` so i can check x to check if it is loaded
18:54 < Psi-Jack> plexigras: no you have said nothing useful that makes any level of sense. Common or otherwise.
18:55 < plexigras> oh you mean if i have said something useful
18:55 < Psi-Jack> Stop with the horrible pseudo code
18:55 < plexigras> this is my actual code :/ and yes it is horrible
18:55 < Dagmar> plexigras: You are really, really doing pretty much all of these things the wrong way
18:55 < Psi-Jack> ...
18:55 < ayecee> "something like"
18:56 < plexigras> Dagmar: that sounds about right
18:56 < plexigras> ayecee: yes i want to get this to work :/
18:56 < plexigras> something like this but working
18:56 < Dagmar> plexigras: For instance, that last bit would have you run a command and then set a variable based on the exit status of the command so that you can check the value later?  Why not just check the bloody exit status right then?
18:56 < kfrench> plexigras: You're going to have to explain your goals here if you're going to get any worthwhile suggestions.
18:57 < plexigras> i already got some good suggestions
18:57 < Psi-Jack> So why do you insist doing bad things?
18:57 < Dagmar> plexigras: Stop turning things into an x-y debacle.  Explain what you're actually trying to accomplish, not _how_ because your how is apparently always madness.  We can tell you how to do things a sensible and reliable way
18:58 < plexigras> let me write some acctual code
18:58 < Dagmar> That will be another form of x-y problem
18:58 < plexigras> ok well then i don't know what to do?
18:58 < zapotah> ^
18:59 < zapotah> plexigras: what are you _trying_ to accomplish
18:59 < Dagmar> If you can't explain it in your native language, then you're not likely to be able to explain it to the computer in a language you've not been speaking since you were 3 or so
18:59 < zapotah> plexigras: what is the end goal
18:59 < zapotah> plexigras: not what are you trying to use
18:59 < Dagmar> Are you trying to lift pine weasels into low-earth orbit?
19:00 < Henry151> hi again ##linux
19:00 < zapotah> plexigras: Dagmar ++
19:00 < zapotah> hurr
19:00 < zapotah> tabfail
19:00 < jeffree> does notify-send keep any information about notifications on disk?
19:00 < Dagmar> Well, I figure we can start by ruling out a few things with a broad brush
19:00 < Henry151> can somebody guide me? http://jsfiddle.net/753wfuzq/42/ I want to run this code locally, on my debian machine, but I don't know how
19:00 < Henry151> i am guessing I save it in a file that ends with .js
19:00 < uplime> yep
19:00 < Henry151> but what do i need to apt install?
19:01 < Henry151> uplime: :)
19:01 < uplime> i don't you need to apt install anything
19:01 < uplime> these look like browser api's
19:01 < jim> Henry151, what language is it written in?
19:01 < hexnewbie> It's funny cause an accidental fork bomb after a lot of insane backgrounding may produce enough momentum to actually place the pine weasels in orbit.
19:01 < uplime> except maybe jquery
19:01 < Dagmar> JavaScript, and it's an x-y problem
19:01 < Henry151> well, it looks like it is javascript but i don't know
19:01 < Henry151> aha
19:01 < Dagmar> Running it on a local workstation won't make any sense
19:01 < bls> Henry151: ##node.js
19:02 < Dagmar> It plays a freakin' heartbeat sound.
19:02 < revel> Henry151: You need apt to apt install, obviously.
19:02 < Henry151> bls: you just answered my quetion for me though
19:02 < Henry151> :)
19:02 < jim> why is it important to know if something is an xyproblem?
19:02 < Dagmar> jim: Becuase since Y is insane, solving it would be a pointless task
19:02 < bls> jim: because solving Y in the wrong way can prevent a clean solution to X
19:02 < zapotah> Dagmar: aye
19:03 < Psi-Jack> plexigras: to actually help you would require some information that a totally makes sense and for too to understand what you actually want and to accept knowledge.
19:03 < zapotah> and providing insane ways to accomplish things makes the world a worse place for all of us
19:03 < Henry151> i would really rather write a script in bash that does the same thing except instead of playing a heartbeat sound just returns a 1 if the transaction is confirmed and a 0 if it is not and checks every few seconds
19:03 < jim> is it x or y that the poster is presenting?
19:04 < zapotah> jim: its always y
19:04 < hexnewbie> In this case, I think it's gone to z.
19:04 < Dagmar> jim: It's always Y.  That's what makes it an X-Y problem.
19:04 < jim> so, the poster presents y when what he wants to do is x?\
19:05 < Dagmar> jim: How have you not seen http://xyproblem.info/
19:05 < Psi-Jack> He never actually presents X
19:05 < jim> never came up\
19:05 < Dagmar> jim: Dude it should practically be required reading for tech help channels
19:05 < Henry151> ok having read the xyproblem.info
19:06 < Henry151> what i want is to have a bash process monitor a transaction ID for a bitcoin transaction and check to see if the transaction has received a first confirmation. As soon as it does receive a first confirmation, I want it to return a 1.
19:06 < bls> is the "X-Y problem" backlash finally over? can we call it one when we see it now? they got to "what have you tried" guy and I still see people railing against "Smart Questions"
19:07 < Dagmar> Henry151: Okay so start by looking for something you can call from bash that can query the blockchain
19:08 < jim> the way I see it, detecting an xy problem should -not- result in hostility, instead, if you notice it, just chunk up the abstraction scale and get what they want to do at that level (again, -without- hostility)
19:08 < Juesto> what's the equivalent of dpkg-reconfigure in redhat/rpm?
19:08 < Psi-Jack> None
19:08 < jim> dunno
19:08 < zapotah> jim: the problem is that most people who insist on the XY problem dont relent before you step on their toes
19:08 < jim> Psi-Jack has run both, so he'd know more about that
19:08 < Dagmar> jim: I've not noticed anyone reacting with hostility.  I notice a *lot* of newbs getting bent out of shape over being told they're solving the wrong problem
19:09 < zapotah> and what Dagmar said
19:09 < bls> jim: the problem is people are often embarrassed that they don't fully understand X, so they focus in on the Y while trying to obscure X. people with experience can tell what's going on. those that really want help will explain themselves. others prefer to double down on the obscurity and/or hostility
19:09 < zapotah> there is too much "political correctness" in the world as it is
19:09 < Dagmar> jim: LIke this Henry151 guy... I don't think he's going to get bent out of shape about it, but he's almost certainly solving the problem incorrectly.  Doing *anything* based on a first confirmation is kind of insane
19:10 < jim> Dagmar, then you can reframe it, for example as a thought experiment
19:10 < Dagmar> jim: See what bls just said
19:10 < jim> then covertly help them to understand X
19:10 < Dagmar> We do that
19:11 < Psi-Jack> Try to do that anyway.
19:11 < Henry151> Dagmar: i'm not going to get bent out of shape about it, don't worry! :) but I can explain my use-case better to help clarify
19:11 < kfrench> We have people rephrase their question in the context of pine weasels.
19:11 < zapotah> why on earth do you need to tiptoe around someones ego in that way?
19:11 < jim> if you can do that or at least stay connected with them without generating shame, that should help with the embarrasment
19:12 < zapotah> i will never understand the kinds of culture where ones ego is so fragile it cant handle it when someone points out flaws in their logic or practices
19:12 < Dagmar> kfrench: Actually, I often prefer to illustrate with a completely bizarre example because it tends to defuse hostility
19:12 < uplime> you can't be POSIX compliant without lots of shame though
19:12 < zapotah> tiptoeing around the problem only wastes time
19:12 < jim> zapotah, I'd rather that we don't generate a long stream of embarrassed and/or pissed off people
19:12 < Dagmar> Henry151: It's still nuts, since any nasty actor can publish a phony first-confirmation with impunity
19:13 < Psi-Jack> I agree. Wasting time is not acceptable.
19:13 < jim> it might not be fragile
19:13 < Henry151> I work at a bitcoin atm company, doing telephone customer support. Sometimes, during high traffic on the blockchain/when there's a big mepool, I have a lot of customers that call and say "I put in money [x-amount-of-time] ago and I still haven't received my bitcoin. What's going on?" When this happens, I would like to be able to honestly say "I will keep an eye on this transaction and if it doesn't go
19:13 < Dagmar> Henry151: ...but I've not really noticed that many user-friendly command line tools for blockchain operations.  That's your _bigger_ problem
19:13 < Henry151> through within X amount of time, I'll check with my boss and have him make sure there weren't any problems with the transaction."
19:13 < luna_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8e4bT0-zhU
19:13 < jim> Psi-Jack, as I've explained to you a fair number of times, you don't have to help them if you don't want to
19:13 < Henry151> %s/mepool/mempool/
19:13 < Dagmar> Henry151: There's no "boss" on a blockchain either
19:14 < Henry151> well, yeah, but there's a boss at the company where i work...
19:14 < jim> luna_, what's that?
19:14 < zapotah> jim: pride and a fragile ego are a poisonous combo anywhere in every culture, one way or another
19:14 < Psi-Jack> As I've explained a number of times. I'm here to help and not walk on eggshells just because you tell me to.
19:14 < plexigras> i can't do it i just suck to much
19:14 < Dagmar> I guess your'e not allowed to say "If you wanted the transaction to happen quickly you should have used Litecoin".  ;)
19:14 < Henry151> and if a transaction doesn't get confirmed, two hours, no big deal, but if it has been 6 hours, I try to notify my boss so he can make sure that our system did everything the way it is supposed to
19:14 < zapotah> Psi-Jack: ++
19:15 < zapotah> Psi-Jack: couldnt have phrased it better myself
19:15 < Henry151> Dagmar: lol, we don't sell litecoin.
19:15 < Psi-Jack> Thank you.
19:15 < Dagmar> Henry151: Okay, this is a *process* problem, then.  You should basically be setting a task to execute in X hours that goes and queries for confirmations/rejections for that transaction and reports them for a human to read
19:15 < jim> zapotah, yes, so the idea is not to trigger it, because becoming triggered is almost always a waste of time and energy
19:15 < plexigras> i want to run a command in a loop and periodically restart the command but with some overlap so i restart the command 5 seconds before i kill the old command
19:15 < Psi-Jack> I mean it was bad enough when Sveta was telling me when and how to effing use a smile emoji... I told her to stop many times.
19:16 < Dagmar> Henry151: Waiting for "any" confirmations/rejections is going to be an "untethered" action and create chaos
19:16 < tlhonmey> Henry151: I don't know about using bash with bitcoincli, but if you use a slightly more potent language that can handle talking to a JSON REST API you can just query the local node for all details about a transaction, which would include the number of confirmations.
19:16 < plexigras> Psi-Jack: is that good enough of an explanation?
19:17 < jim> Psi-Jack, if you're gonna square off against sveta, I feel sorry for your welcome :)
19:17 < Henry151> thanks everybody
19:17 < Henry151> insightful guidance
19:17 < Dagmar> Henry151: Both because it can result in insane "peak" workloads (if a ton of confirmations happen at once) and because if *no* confirmations happen, then you don't reliably revisit the problem
19:17 < kfrench> plexigras: I think you need a control process that starts your real process and waits for it to end or kills it as needed.  It'll need to remember the state of things so it knows when to do the right thing.
19:17 < Psi-Jack> jim doing what Dominian suggested. Grins
19:17 < Dagmar> Henry151: Feel free to adjust follow-up delay according to the recent hash rates
19:18 < Henry151> I guess I should really just propose the idea to my boss (who is a way more talented programmer than I) and if it's worth doing, he can probably implement it in the time it would take me to figure out how to ask my question properly XD
19:18 < plexigras> kfrench: yes how do i do that?
19:18 < tlhonmey> Henry151: there's a Python module for talking to bitcoind that would make it relatively simple.
19:18 < jim> the bottom line: things ARE changing here. this is going to happen, and I don't have the whole thing in my mind at any one time, so I'm mostly putting out fires at the moment
19:18 < Henry151> tlhonmey: thanks!
19:19 < kfrench> plexigras: Start simple.  make a loop that starts up your proc and then restarts it automatically when it ends.  Then start adding in the other detais
19:19 < Dagmar> Note how almost everything turns to "well, there's this library of code [...]"
19:19 < zapotah> Henry151: see, you get more insightful responses when you tell what it is you want to do :3
19:19 < jim> Henry151, do you do python? it's kinda easy to learn if you don't right now
19:20 < zapotah> plus
19:20 < zapotah> its actually useful in very, _very_ many ways
19:20 < plexigras> how can i find out if a specific job is still running?
19:20 < kfrench> plexigras: jobs -l
19:20 < Dagmar> There's a HUmble Bundle for packt publishing with a crapton of Python books in
19:20 < plexigras> i just give it the pid?
19:21 < kfrench> plexigras: try it.  sleep 20%; jobs -l
19:21 < kfrench> er, sleep 20&
19:21 < kfrench> and leave out that ;
19:21 < jml2> interesting i was reading up about "netplan" being deployed starting with ubuntu 17.10
19:21 < jml2> as though there's not enough confusion with NM and systemd-networkd
19:22 < Dagmar> Enough that we should probably start stabbing surplus programmers
19:22 < Dagmar> Nothing fatal, just something to keep them off the keyboard for a few months or so
19:22 < Dagmar> give them time to rethink things
19:24 < zapotah> jml2: it doesnt conflict with any existing stuff
19:24 < zapotah> jml2: and its kinda doubling down on the network automation solutions out there using yaml-restconf
19:24 < jml2> zapotah, correct, but it adds more curve to learning... it is also not necessary and can be left blank
19:24 < zapotah> aye
19:24 < Dagmar> Is it just a *.c file full of comments?
19:24 < jml2> zapotah, if one knows already how to use nm
19:24 < Dagmar> With the other two things mentioned it would be nearly impossible to not be in conflict with something
19:24 < zapotah> meh, its quite easy if youve used ansible tbh
19:25 < jml2> zapotah, netplan is supposed to replace ifupdown, but ifupdown can still work as intended
19:25 < Psi-Jack> I'll also make one more point. Hehe. "Don't be an elitist" makes no sense. Never has. Example : I've used Linux, Unix, etc for well over 20 years and know it more than most. I /am/ the elite by technicality as are a few others here that like to help.
19:25 < zapotah> or any network vendors stuff for automation
19:25 < jml2> it only adds more confusion to users who'd like to learn networking
19:25 < zapotah> jml2: imo. it doesnt.
19:25 < kfrench> Psi-Jack: Is there a difference between an expert and an elitist?  I don't know, so I'm just asking.
19:26 < Dagmar> What they should do is learn networking.
19:26 < zapotah> jml2: it just needs to be explained better
19:26 < jml2> netplan definitely simplifies things, .. but to customize things/tinker things -- for items that netplan wouldn't support, it can be over complicating
19:26 < Dagmar> ...then they can worry about what tools are available to configure the bits and pieces.
19:26 < Psi-Jack> kfrench: Good question!
19:26 < zapotah> its not obvious why it exists
19:26 < Dagmar> It's obvious to me
19:27 < zapotah> Dagmar: its obvious to anyone whos architected and deployed modern systems
19:27 < kfrench> Psi-Jack: I would say an expert know more than most about a subject.  An elitist might think they know everything (might), and also look down upon those who do not.  I'm not suggesting that anyone here was acting as such.
19:27 < zapotah> but its just one part of a larger whole
19:28 < jml2> triceratux, I actually overlooked that thing called netplan.. never considered about it until I read about it (today)
19:28 < Dagmar> "Since departing from simple bash scripts, the mechanisms have become so complex as to need a whole second layer of configuration files"
19:28 < mouses> Psi-Jack: the 'elitist' for me in my mind is when people treat new / clueless users like idiots and tell them to 'RTFM' and stuff like that vs actually helping
19:28 < jml2> zapotah, is there a good reason why "netplan" is needed?
19:28 < Henry151> zapotah: i saw you mention ansible
19:28 < jml2> ^
19:28 < mouses> Psi-Jack: I see way too much of that in the community :(
19:28 < Henry151> jim: I have played with python a little
19:28 < ayecee> )`:
19:29 < zapotah> kfrench: an elitist by definition is someone who isnt even willing to share know-how and wants to stay at the apex through that
19:29 < Henry151> zapotah: have you seen sovereign for ansible?
19:29 < mouses> it's like 'great, you didn't help them at all, and you also took time to make them feel inferior for even asking'
19:29 < Dagmar> This is why it's maybe time to start banning people from their keyboards and have them spend a month or two in deep meditation just *thinking* about the whole problem
19:29 < Henry151> I've never done anything with ansible but I want to learn just to do sovereign
19:29 < kfrench> zapotah: that's a reasonable definition
19:29 < mouses> (not you personally, talking the community in general)
19:29 < zapotah> jml2: there are many orchestration tools that eat a yaml-model
19:29 < Henry151> Dagmar: instead of banning them from the keyboard, just disconnect their internet, let them read manpages
19:30 < bls> mouses: this is generally a RTFM-free channel, what people do do a lot of is ask clarifying questions, which is often met with the same hostility as being told to RTFM
19:30 < Psi-Jack> kfrench: I don't think so. By definition and elitist is someone of the elite which is, in this context, a person strong in skill, the skill being in general : Linux
19:30 < zapotah> jml2: including the host systems to that model is a reasonable extension in ie. cloud applications
19:30 < Dagmar> Henry151: Theyll just code without a git repo and complain about it
19:30 < Henry151> I swear i've made more progress when stuck at a terminal prompt with no internet access trying to figure something out than I make in weeks of chatting on IRC
19:30 < zapotah> Henry151: im not very well versed in ansible just yet
19:30 < zapotah> by my own definition anyway :D
19:30 < Henry151> zapotah: I never even tried it or really even read about it
19:30 < Dagmar> Sometimes it is *very* hard to get people to think about what they're doing before they start writing code
19:30 < zapotah> Henry151: its useful
19:30 < kfrench> I would call most of the people here "experts", but that they don't want to waste their time, as well as the questioners time, by solving the wrong problem.  I don't see elitist here that try to keep the noobs down intentionally.
19:30 < zapotah> some swear to ansible, some to Salt
19:30 < jml2> zapotah, that's a good point -- reminded me about cloud-support I was reading upa bout on a blog somewhere
19:31 < jml2> zapotah, that actually makes sense btw
19:31 < Dagmar> ...and once they start they're generally pretty committed to whatever design they had in mind before they really thought about the problem well
19:31 < Henry151> I started reading here https://github.com/sovereign/sovereign and then got distracted by tarsnap (which i had never heard of before then) and so i installed that and got it working and i haven't gone back to sovereign
19:31 < Henry151> yet
19:31 < bls> kfrench: that said, we do have our share of help vampires that don't get nearly the time/patience someone unknown might get
19:31 < jml2> zapotah, .yaml would be more predictive and constructive to parse than other things that are constantly changing
19:31 < Psi-Jack> kfrench: essentially elite and expert are similar in meaning.
19:32 < Henry151> in the list there, where it says "what do you get if you point sovereign at a server?" is basically a list of all the stuff that I want to learn how to do
19:32 < bls> Dagmar: OSS development as grad student resume building
19:32 < kfrench> bls: I can believe that.  It's frustrating helping someone repeatedly when they show no real progress in understanding.
19:32 < zapotah> jml2: im still taking baby steps there tbh
19:32 < zapotah> again, by my own definition :D
19:32 < Psi-Jack> This explains it pretty well : https://wikidiff.com/elite/expert
19:33 < bls> Dagmar: i.e. highly idealistic with no basis in real world experience or thoughts to others having to maintain whatever they've done
19:34 < jml2> zapotah, it's supposed to replace ifupdown, according to this blog -- but here I'm still able to use ifupdown perfectly (while netplan has no .yaml configuration) https://blog.ubuntu.com/2017/12/01/ubuntu-bionic-netplan    -- one of my workstations has ubuntu on it..
19:34 < zapotah> yeah
19:34 < hexnewbie> plexigras: What does the process do, why do you want to restart it often, and why with the overlap?
19:35 < zapotah> jml2: its essentially a host automation component for larger systems
19:35 < zapotah> using it will be simple enough on a single host scale
19:35 < zapotah> "just another tool"
19:35 < bls> kind of like you can still use ifupdown, only if you've got NM installed, instead of detecting and absorbing changes made there will just blow away/reapply what it "believes" should be there?
19:35 < jml2> bls, uh more complicating lol
19:36 < jml2> bls, NM has plugins
19:36 < zapotah> afaik, its main use will be with openstack and such
19:36 < jml2> and netplan has plugins in the form of renderers -- netplan is unique, that you give an .yaml to it, and it "generates a config" for NM or systemd-networkd
19:36 < zapotah> to orchestrate applications all the way down to the instances
19:36 < jml2> ideally netplan is to be used when NM and systemd-networkd have zero configurations already in them
19:37 < jim> Psi-Jack, right, and if people don't get triggered, you don't waste time... I'
19:37 < hexnewbie> Hm, the best experience in life: You're using ifupdown, some package pulls NM without you knowing - they coexist peacefully (it's a mess, but you don't know it is there, because it works). Some other package pulls connmann, breaking both NM and ifupdown (both still present), changing your gateway and placing 127.0.0.1 as your DNS (without a DNS running on localhost)
19:38 < hexnewbie> That should, of course, be the normal experience when installing a desktop environment
19:38 < jim> Psi-Jack, I'm trying to show everyone how to realize if they;re being triggered early enough that they don't get swallowed by the effects of the triggering, and can instead choose their response
19:39 < jim> but, it will take major self-work to gain that ability
19:40 < cookiebow> (noob question) If i format a usb with mkfs.ntfs. I guess i'll be able to boot it with no error on a windows PC then?
19:40 < koala_man> it won't automatically be bootable
19:40 < bls> cookiebow: no
19:40 < cookiebow> So, how would i make this possible?
19:40 < tlhonmey> cookiebow: "booting" is different from "mounting".
19:40 < hexnewbie> cookiebow: No. mkfs doesn't make things bootable, mkfs.ntfs doesn't install a bootloader, ntldr or whatever Windows uses these days
19:41 < ananke> cookiebow: what exactly do you want to boot to?
19:41 < jml2> cookiebow, dont ask about hypothetical question about fixing Windows please. You're on ##linux.
19:41 < cookiebow> ananke: I want my usb key to be able to boot on a windows computer if i have to. I dont have a windows pc to try on tho
19:41 < jml2> cookiebow, #windows
19:41 < koala_man> cookiebow: what do you want to boot?
19:41 < ananke> cookiebow: again, boot to _what_?
19:41 < cookiebow> jml2: sorry.
19:41 < hexnewbie> cookiebow: Boot what? mkfs doesn't install an operating system
19:41 < jml2> koala_man, he wants to boot windows
19:42 < koala_man> jml2: how do you know?
19:42 < jml2> koala_man, because he wants "ntfs".
19:42 < cookiebow> hexnewbie: Boot the stick. not the os
19:42 < jml2> pretty simple enough to me.
19:42 < hexnewbie> cookiebow: The only thing that a computer can boot is an operating system
19:42 < ananke> cookiebow: 'booting' means loading an operating system. you haven't specified what operating system would that be
19:42 < mutante> what is "a windows computer" if you dont boot the OS on it
19:42 < jim> cookiebow, maybe,,, you might be able to get additional info from the #windows channel
19:42 < cookiebow> sorry, i mean mount then. i'm not that familiar with this :P
19:42 < koala_man> then yes
19:43 < mutante> cookiebow: you can format it with Linux file systems and then install third party tools on Windows to mount that
19:43 < mutante> (ext3/ext4 that is)
19:43 < jim> you can make an ntfs filesystem, and you can load it with stuff from linux... dunno if or how it can be made to boot
19:44 < tlhonmey> mutante: last time I tried them they didn't actually work correctly any more.
19:44 < bls> what state are the Windows ext[34] drivers in? they were highly volatile last time I looked
19:44 < jml2> never stable
19:44 < kfrench> jim: maybe lilo?
19:44 < jml2> that's why it's better imho not to mention them
19:44 < jml2> (even paragon's readers cause problems)
19:45 < cookiebow> mutante: so i can't get around this without installing extra stuff on the windows os?
19:45 < jim> kfrench, lilo uses blocklists to find files to boot... if you move the files it boots, you would invalidate the block list for that file
19:45 < tlhonmey> cookiebow: if you're just wanting to transfer files, just format it either ntfs or fat32 depending on how big the USB drive is.
19:45 < kfrench> jim: yes, but at least your boot loader (lilo) wouldn't need to know how to parse ntfs
19:46 < mutante> cookiebow: you can if you use NTFS but then you maybe have extra trouble on the Linux side
19:46 < cookiebow> tlhonmey: ok
19:46 < mutante> cookiebow: reading won't be a problem, writing maybe
19:46 < hexnewbie> cookiebow: Yeah, mkfs.ntfs filesystems are mountable under Windows. All filesystems that are supported under Windows can be safely formatted with mkfs and will be mountable in Windows. This includes ntfs, vfat/msdos, exfat, and udf. Windows may be fussy about what you formatted with UDF. Also if on a partition (not whole device), you may need to specify the partition type in the partition table (with gdisk or fdisk), but ‘USB’ implie
19:46 < hexnewbie> s a flash drive with no partitions so that's not actually an issue
19:46 < mutante> yea, probably FAT32 will be the easiest, cookiebow
19:46 < prussian> you could try UDF if you want an fs from ths century
19:47 < jim> it's possible to boot grub without blocklists... I don't think grub has the necessary module to be able to find files by name in an ntfs-formatted filesystem
19:47 < cookiebow> okey, thanks all.
19:47 < jml2> hexnewbie, uh USB implies just using a USB.  he still needs to create a partition table in general on any storage device
19:47 < prussian> why
19:47 < hexnewbie> jml2: Flash drives are usually partitionless, and people refer to them as ‘USB’
19:48 < hexnewbie> (Yeah, I hate calling them that too)
19:48 < plexigras> would a command like `(sleep 30 && kill $PID)&` work?
19:48 < jml2> floppy disks have no partition tables
19:48 < jml2> lol
19:48 < jml2> not flash or usb afaik...
19:48 < tlhonmey> You only need a partition table on any device if you plan to partition it.  I run a goodly portion of my drives without these days.
19:48 < prussian> ^
19:48 < jim> kfrench, right, and I think that lilo and grub can use blocklists, and, they've been found to be unreliable for at least the reasons I gave above (and still, it might be the only way to do it)
19:48 < jml2> possibly i'm wrong for certain flash devices... but in general, USB things means to have a partition table
19:48 < tlhonmey> floppy disks are an entirely different kettle of fish.
19:49 < bls> plexigras: you're omitting too much context for anyone to give an accurate reply to that
19:49 < prussian> same. device mapper luks stuff and btrfs md's without any partition table at any level
19:49 < cookiebow> Well to make things more clear, I want to store a keepass file on an usb stick that can be accessed from all types of OSes(?).
19:49 < plexigras> bls: but it is a valid command?
19:49 < jml2> cookiebow, yeah that's one usage for it
19:49 < hexnewbie> plexigras: What are you killing, and why are you killing it?
19:49 < jml2> cookiebow, there's also droidkeep on android :P
19:49 < tlhonmey> cookiebow: FAT32 will have the best mountability across platforms.
19:49 < prussian> cookiebow: i mean can't go wrong with fat I guess, but UDF is probably better
19:49 < cookiebow> alright :)
19:49 < jml2> ./keepassdroid./ to be more precise
19:50 < jim> you'd have to wander to a museum to get a floppy drive (I would expect) and, getting a good floppy is hard
19:50 < jml2> cookiebow, keepassxc << is more maintained than the other keepass applications..
19:50 < jml2> cookiebow, (has plugins for webbrowser ... etc)
19:50 < bls> plexigras: that depends on a lot of other things
19:50 < kfrench> O.O
19:50 < hexnewbie> I have a good floppy - several of them. Getting a thing to attach to (a working FDC) is a whole different manner.
19:50 < plexigras> bls: ok then wish me good luck :)
19:50 < cookiebow> jml2: ah okay. ill look into it
19:50 < hexnewbie> matter. Do wrods even mean antyhing? :)
19:50 < tlhonmey> jim: They're actually still in use in some places.  And you can get USB floppy drives still last time I looked.
19:50 < bls> plexigras: and that snippet can be done much more cleanly with commands like `waitpid` or `timeout`
19:51 < plexigras> that is nice to know i will have a look at those
19:52 < hexnewbie> plexigras: Yeah, if you tell us what is the command you're killing and why, we may find it easier to suggest a snippet with timeout in it. Or GNU parallel. Or both. Or systemd. Because it's absolutely unclear what you're doing.
19:52 < kfrench> bls: waitpid?  What package does that come in?
19:52 < bls> kfrench: it's a bash builtin
19:53 < kfrench> It's not in my v4.1.2 :-(
19:53 < bls> kfrench: derr, scratch that, that's the library call bash's wait command is based on
19:53 < kfrench> bls: but thanks.
19:54 < bls> always confuses me when a CLI wrapper around a library call has a different name
19:54 < blamedrop> Hi, I'd like to ask about Compose key and custom XCompose file: Is it possible to create combination that will output some text AND move the text cursor eg. 3 times to left? (equivalent to pressing left arrow three times)
19:54 < kfrench> bls: ya, there's syscalls for stuff like that.  I don't know how to get bash to wait for the completion of any of the given processes (as opposed to wait for them all)
19:55 < uplime> bash's wait can take a pid to wait for a specific process
19:55 < kfrench> uplime: Can it do "wait 100 200" to wait for either of those 2 to end?
19:55 < bls> blamedrop: not really something for XCompose. you'd need to move up to a higher level for something like that
19:55 < uplime> kfrench: `help wait`
19:55 < kfrench> uplime: wait 100 200 will wait until both are done.
19:56 < bls> blamedrop: looked at xbindkeys?
19:56 < kfrench> "If ID is a a job specification, waits for all processes in the job's pipeline."
19:56 < kfrench> I want "any", not "all"
19:57 < cookiebow> so, if i use "mkdosfs -F 32 -I /dev/sda1" , will i be ready to go then?
19:57 < uplime> i mean, thats not really what wait is for. you'd have to pull waitpid internally and keep looping with different pids'
19:57 < kfrench> uplime: Ya.  I loop over jobs -l.
19:57 < blamedrop> bls Compose is enough for my use, just wondered if you could do that. Doesn't Unicode has some control characters to allow it?
19:58 < kfrench> maybe I can trap SIGCHLD?
19:58 < uplime> gross
19:58 < clemens3> 35
19:58 < clemens3> ups, wrong channel
19:58 < bls> blamedrop: XCompose is more for "input this sequence of keys, get out this single character". using arrow keys to move a cursor is outside of that purpose
19:59 < bls> if unicode has embedded cursor movement characters, I'm not aware of it
20:00 < hexnewbie> blamedrop: In non-terminals, arrow keys are not characters (control, text, unicode or otherwise). In terminals, they are a sequence of a control character (escape), and some printable ones, but they differ with the terminal type. So arrow keys cannot be in Unicode (though character sequences for your terminal might)
20:03 < bls> so xbindkeys could set up a macro for "on this keypress/modifier sequence, output this char and press XF86_Right 3 times"
20:04 < blamedrop> bls, hexnewbie thanks. I was afraid it is not possible. I think I saw something similar in Vim, but I understand it's completely different case
20:04 < bls> vim kind of mashed together its digraph, abbreviation, and macro systems
20:05 < blamedrop> bls, I don't doubt you can achieve that with additional software, but I don't need it that much, I will do with bare XCompose ;)
20:20 < noodlepie> I must say fish looks good. I used to use bash but its interesting enough to be worth checking out.
20:27 < michaelrose> noodlepie, I like the syntax, default completion is way better and its neat to interactively define or edit existing definitions in the terminal
20:28 < michaelrose> I also like the universal variable scope where I can share a variable between shell invocations
20:28 < SpeakerToMeat> Question, is there any program that will de-css a dvd in linux but not recode?
20:29 < michaelrose> SpeakerToMeat, do you want to rewrite the dvd to a new dvd instead of a file on your computer?
20:30 < SpeakerToMeat> michaelrose: yes
20:31 < michaelrose> wouldn't a bit for bit copy of the disk be just fine then?
20:32 < Bru-> Anyone run hass.io on Linux install?
20:33 < stephen> Looking for folks familiar with Freescale linux
20:34 < ayecee> hope you find them
20:34 < ananke> Bru-: I think I may have tried it before
20:34 < Bru-> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/qqDvEPnT/image.png
20:34 < Bru-> i get this error in docker logs with the hassio_supervisor container
20:35 < Bru-> not sure why it keeps saying denied. I gave access to the user involved
20:35 < Bru-> I am a bit of a newb though
20:35 < ananke> Bru-: damn, that's blurry
20:35 < ananke> Bru-: not to mention, the error is cut off
20:36 < SpeakerToMeat> michaelrose: Maybe it seems it's not cssed...
20:36 < Bru-> no its at the very bottom line
20:36 < ananke> Bru-: ahh, yea. it was so blurry I had to make it larger
20:36 < uplime> > taking pictures of errors
20:37 < uplime> Bru-: please use a pastebin
20:37 < ananke> Bru-: you should contact the authors of said docker image
20:38 < Bru-> just wondering if it may be an issue with my setup external of the Hass.io image
20:38 < michaelrose> SpeakerToMeat, vobcopy is I think what you want
20:40 < badsekt0r> are there any distros ready-made for the paranoid blockbuster movie downloader crowd?
20:41 < SpeakerToMeat> michaelrose: thank you
20:41 < phogg> badsekt0r: In the first place no, in the second place if there were it would be against channel policy to tell you.
20:41 < badsekt0r> oops sorry... for the record i was asking for a friend
20:42 < phogg> badsekt0r: Of course you were. In general, though, paranoid people would do well to use tails.
20:42 < ayecee> just as tails are used on them
20:43 < badsekt0r> lol good point
20:43 < michaelrose> badsekt0r, just get a vpn
20:43 < michaelrose> usable on any distro
20:43 < phogg> and so easy to trace
20:44 < michaelrose> if you are really paranoid get a vpn outside the US
20:44 < jim> badsekt0r, we would hope that you and/or your friend would use linux for other (and legal) purposes
20:44 < ayecee> if you're _really_ paranoid ask yourself if watching a movie is worth being put on a list
20:45 < badsekt0r> jim, was it always illegal to download movies? i mean was it in the 90s? oh wait, in the 90s it would take half an hour just to download a 3 min mp3
20:45 < michaelrose> it was always illegal copyright predates the movie industry
20:45 < ayecee> in the 90s we used tapes, and it was also illegal
20:45 < phogg> badsekt0r: It was always illegal. It used to be less likely that anyone was watching.
20:45 < quul> it's not illegal if you already own a copy of the movie
20:46 < ayecee> a facile argument
20:46 < bls> yes it is
20:46 < MrElendig> depends on the country
20:46 < phogg> quul: actually it is (in the USA at least)
20:46 < quul> what law
20:46 < solidfox> if you own a nintendo wii game, and you make a backup copy on a dvd-r, is that legal?
20:46 < bls> yes
20:46 < MrElendig> solidfox: depends on the country
20:46 < solidfox> MrElendig, usa
20:46 < bls> DMCA
20:46 < phogg> quul: the law that says *making a copy* is illegal. Even if you have a license for a movie on e.g. DVD it's illegal to *make a copy* of the DVD, either on to DVD or on to hard disk except in some very narrow conditions.
20:47  * solidfox opens US code
20:47 < mawk> in europe it's legal
20:47 < phogg> quul: They wouldn't advertise "Disc + digital copy" if they didn't think that you did not get an automatic license for the "digital" version.
20:47 < mawk> but the law isn't applicable, and DVD distributors don't make it easy with their DRM
20:48 < quul> what is the exact wording
20:48 < phogg> Some law suits about about making backups have occurred so if you can reasonably claim to be making a copy just for backup purposes you're probably OK, but even then obtaining that copy via e.g. bit torrent is not okay.
20:48 < quul> do i have to read this whole thing to disprove you?
20:48 < rascul> dvd drm isn't really even a hurdle anymore (except maybe legally)
20:48 < ayecee> you were pretty confident. it sounded like you already had read it.
20:49 < ayecee> i guess that was just winging it.
20:49 < quul> me?
20:49 < phogg> quul: Are you a lawyer? Get me a lawyer who is familiar with US copyright law and let him tell me it's legal. Until then it's not.
20:49 < mawk> if you make a copy bypassing the DRM it's illegal I believe rascul
20:49 < quul> because i'm 100% sure you can back up cd's and dvds legally in the US
20:49 < solidfox> its illegal to call your product DEA
20:49 < phogg> bypassing DRM is illegal under the DMCA even if you do not "make a copy"
20:49 < rascul> yeah, the maybe was because in other countries it might be legal
20:50 < badsekt0r> they don't have DVD's anymore do they? it is all Bluray
20:50 < phogg> quul: Again, for *backup purposes* only you are probably okay. You would still have to prove it was only for backups in court if you were sued.
20:50 < rascul> badsekt0r you might be surprised
20:50 < phogg> quul: and you are *not* allowed to "pirate for a backup copy"
20:50 < michaelrose> for practical purposes you can safety ignore anything pertaining to your personal use of your own property because regardless of the law you will face zero consequences
20:50 < phogg> badsekt0r: DVDs are on the decline but they are very much still being made for all new releases.
20:50 < badsekt0r> rascul, do you need a Blueray driver for your PC? or do they run on DVD-ROMS too?
20:50 < quul> idk phogg you sound like you're making this stuff up base off of some FBI warning text you read one time
20:50 < rascul> michaelrose not necessarily, but in the case of dvd copying, you're probably correct
20:51 < michaelrose> whereas if you download copies over the internet you are exposing yourself to at least some risk
20:51 < rascul> badsekt0r i don't understand the question, why would i need a blue ray driver? does what run on dvd-rom?
20:51 < bls> phogg is essentially summarizing the DMCA, not making stuff up
20:51 < phogg> quul: I am relating to you information I have acquired as an interested observer watching the evolution of this since the late 90s. I am trying to distill thousands of slashdot articles, groklaw posts, legal briefs and court rulings that I have read.
20:51 < michaelrose> quul, its exactly as stupid as described
20:51 < phogg> quul: it does not summarize trivially
20:52 < ayecee> quul: ain't that the pot calling the kettle black
20:52 < badsekt0r> rascul, what is a Bluray? is it like a DVD but 8 GB?
20:52 < rascul> badsekt0r seems like you already know what it is
20:52 < badsekt0r> rascul, so can you watch a BLueray in a DVD-rom?
20:52 < rascul> no
20:52 < phogg> quul: I have also read, just for comparison with yourself, all of the DMCA *and* Title 17
20:52 < badsekt0r> so it has its own hardware
20:53 < rascul> sure
20:53 < rascul> there's drives that can read both though
20:53 < quul> nice phogg  so what part of it says i can't download a copy of something i have purchased a licesned copy of
20:54 < phogg> badsekt0r: A bluray is an optical disc that is the same size as but quite different from a DVD. You can make a single reader which can read both. On a PC you need different decoder software for each
20:54 < ayecee> quul: the part where it says you can't download a copy of it plus the part where there's no exception for if you have a license of it
20:54 < badsekt0r> phogg, 8 gb capacity, right?
20:54 < bls> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealNetworks,_Inc._v._DVD_Copy_Control_Ass%27n,_Inc.
20:55 < michaelrose> however in practice you are still unlikely to experience consequences for downloading anything via a vpn because the benefit of suing you are pretty law and the costs high.  The attacks on piracy thus far have been primary targeted at people that are the source of the problem or low cost attacks whereby they either get your isp to scare you by sending a letter or ask a court to illegally join a bunch of suits against
20:55 < michaelrose> downloaders and ask the isp to give up the person behind a bunch of ip addresses and then send letters demanding settlements to the users behind said address
20:55 < phogg> quul: Title 17 says that making copies of copyrighted works without a license is illegal. When you purchase a movie you will typically only be licensed for the copy you purchased, not other copies.
20:55 < quul> it says you can't circumvent
20:55 < solidfox> bls, this article says wikipedia does not have this article
20:55 < quul> nothign about downloading
20:55 < phogg> badsekt0r: No, more like 40
20:55 < rascul> michaelrose even without a vpn unless you're a heavy seeder you might not even get a dmca notice
20:55 < bls> solidfox: hmm, someone is messing with the name
20:56 < badsekt0r> phogg, you kidding
20:56 < bls> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act#RealNetworks,_Inc._v._DVD_Copy_Control_Association,_Inc.
20:56 < michaelrose> if your vpn provider doesn't keep logs it may be impossible for them to give up who you are
20:56 < solidfox> bls, tanks
20:57 < bls> "In August 2009, the DVD Copy Control Association won a lawsuit against RealNetworks for violating copyright law in selling its RealDVD software, allowing users to copy DVDs and store them on a harddrive."
20:57 < phogg> badsekt0r: a dual layer DVD is ~8.5GiB. A bluray is more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats
20:57 < michaelrose> if you were doing something MUCH more interesting and your vpn provider was in your jurisdiction they could be served with papers asking them to cooperate in finding out where and who you are
20:58 < solidfox> bls, the next sentence qualifies that statement
20:58 < solidfox> bls, its because the software circumvented DRM protections
20:58 < badsekt0r> phogg, cool
20:58 < solidfox> and scrambling
20:59 < bls> solidfox: right, so if a piece of media contains any anti-copy protections, it's illegal to bypass them
20:59 < solidfox> bls, a wii game is burned onto a special disc, so that must mean you can't make copies of wii games
20:59 < michaelrose> man they tried to use that shit to keep you from using store brand copy pods in keurig coffee pots
21:00 < solidfox> damn.
21:00 < quul> phogg: this one? or some other law?  https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/120
21:00 < phogg> solidfox: Companies have argued in court that even *base64* is sufficient to qualify as "copyright protection" and circumventing it violates the DMCA. I can't remember if they succeeded in that one or not.
21:00 < bls> and ink cartridges
21:00 < michaelrose> if you let them shovels would cost $200 and would come with unboard gps and require you to register the location they were used at and if the site were commercial the dues would be higher
21:00 < solidfox> I'm so happy we're discussing law in here
21:00 < phogg> quul: yes, but try https://www.copyright.gov/title17/ for the official source
21:01 < solidfox> phogg, thats interesting.
21:01 < rascul> michaelrose i doubt they would be able to sell many of those shovels
21:02 < phogg> michaelrose: as soon as someone can come up with a way to make an IoT shovel that links to social media you can be sure it will happen
21:02 < michaelrose> not a problem just see if you can pass a law that says you can't sell shovels without that
21:02 < phogg> michaelrose: it all depends on the power of the shovel lobby
21:03 < bls> that evil evil rent seeking shovel industry :P
21:03 < phogg> guns with GPS trackers could never happen but only because of the NRA, but who defends the shovel?
21:03 < kfrench> It's time to put an end to Big Shovel
21:03 < rascul> not because of the nra
21:03 < michaelrose> then pass regulations that require the use of specific spec shovels to be used for you know safety and make sure it includes shoveldrm
21:03 < bls> can we get the unions involved with who is and isn't allowed to use said shovels?
21:04 < michaelrose> mostly at job sites, bls yes yes we can
21:04 < phogg> bls: I think we obviously must. Only licensed members of the union can be allowed.
21:04 < michaelrose> and we need shovel auditors to make sure that people aren't ducking their shovel dues and thus stealing from the shovel companies
21:04 < azx> so if windows bootloader overwrites grub and fucks up dual booting,,,can i just grub-install again from live media to fix it?
21:04 < rascul> ugh unions are crap, at least they way they are implemented in the us
21:04 < michaelrose> azx, yes
21:04  * bls hires a licensed contractor to operate his dog's pooper scooper
21:04 < azx> thank you,
21:05 < quul> i don't see anythign in there that would prohibit copying a file, unless that file is a circumvention program
21:05 < michaelrose> it sounds so stupid but somehow its just fine for software
21:06 < rascul> government can't even be trusted not to screw up something as simple as a gas can
21:06 < bls> the problem is the DMCA doesn't consider it "just a file". it becomes covered in a magic "restricted media" blanket, the low level details be damned
21:06 < phogg> quul: I believe 106 covers it
21:07 < kfrench> Surely, you wouldn't download a shovel.  Would you?
21:07  * solidfox downloads a shovel 3d printing model
21:07 < phogg> solidfox: Obviously that must be illegal!
21:08 < michaelrose> If I could download a car I would
21:08 < solidfox> michaelrose, you say it sounds stupid, but it makes sense to me.
21:08 < solidfox> michaelrose, I work at a company that sells SaaS and we offer support and updates. and we host the program ourselves.
21:08 < phogg> quul: "Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following: (1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;" There. That says only the owner of the copyright can "reproduce the ... work in copies"
21:08 < rascul> michaelrose you can build your own car, it's a bit of a hurdle to get it registered but that's probably the easy part
21:08 < solidfox> michaelrose, if they just copied the software and used it themselves, we wouldn't make anymore money
21:08 < kfrench> solidfox: WTF?  I need to run regular updates on my shovel now too?  Insanity
21:09 < phogg> quul: after that you need an *exception* to be allowed, or a license
21:09 < solidfox> kfrench, nah. shovels are a small utility that does 1 job and does it well.
21:09 < solidfox> kfrench, unix philosophy :)
21:09 < rascul> it does 3 jobs well
21:09 < phogg> one day downloading a car will not be impossible
21:09 < kfrench> systemd-shovel
21:09 < phogg> and you can bet when I can I will
21:09 < rascul> digging, bashing people, and killing snakes
21:10 < kfrench> sorry, I'm in a goofy mood.  I'll try to stop
21:10 < Sonolin> phogg and guns
21:10 < Sonolin> ...actually, you can do that now!
21:10 < phogg> Sonolin: the legality of it is somewhat questionable
21:10 < Sonolin> psh whatever, nobody can infringe on *my* 2nd ammendment rights
21:10 < rascul> it's legal (federally) to build your own gun
21:10 < Sonolin> ^^
21:10 < solidfox> I remember when that was becoming popular and they made a documentary about 3d printed semi-automatic rifles.
21:11 < phogg> rascul: until you sell it, yes
21:11 < solidfox> the day after the documentary, the guy gets all his tech seized
21:11 < Sonolin> no shit
21:11 < phogg> if I run a 3d print shop and you print a gun on my machine... legal?
21:11 < rascul> yep, you can gift it though but even that's a lot of work
21:11 < phogg> like I said, it starts to get gray pretty fast
21:11 < rascul> phogg as long as i am the only person doing it, yes
21:11 < Sonolin> if you watch TV, clearly you know the government wants *all* your guns
21:11 < rascul> as soon as you help me, it's illegal
21:11 < Sonolin> so I say, fuck it, let's own *all* the guns
21:11 < ayecee> well, at least if you watch fox
21:12 < Sonolin> #neverforget
21:12 < solidfox> ayecee, ?
21:12  * Sonolin cries
21:12 < jim> ok, now it's getting pretty far afield, when the discussion is about gun building and using, and the second amendment'
21:12 < ayecee> not you, solidfox
21:12 < phogg> Sonolin: I run a 3d print shop and I take shape files and print them for a fee, then ship the customer the resulting object. You send me a gun. Legal?
21:12 < Sonolin> should be
21:12 < michaelrose> solidfox, and as its running on your machines I gather its both simple to keep people from copying and control use
21:12 < Sonolin> but probably not technically
21:12 < phogg> Sonolin: probably has to get settled in court
21:12 < rascul> phogg pretty sure that's illegal
21:12 < Sonolin> no it doesn't have to unless you get caught
21:12 < ayecee> a man steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving family. Legal?
21:13 < za1b1tsu> Hello, if anyone is running linux on a macbook, I got the macbook bro 11,4 , 15" mid 2015 retina. What distro would you recommend for most compatibility multi touch, sleep, camera, microphone etc?
21:13 < phogg> Sonolin: and anyway, the government in no way wants all your guns (or even some of them).
21:13 < phogg> rascul: there is a certain amount of debate
21:13 < ayecee> now say that family doesn't like bread, they like cigarettes. Legal?
21:13 < Sonolin> lol keep lying to yourself phogg
21:13 < solidfox> michaelrose, yeah. it is pretty simple for us.
21:13 < michaelrose> solidfox, its also easy to build your entire business on other peoples work and not give back too with 99.9% being open source software
21:13 < rascul> phogg lemme see if i can dig something up that could help clarify that
21:13 < phogg> Sonolin: The government isn't nearly so cohesive. I am a left wing liberal anti-gun activist and **I** do not want your guns. If I don't and few are more extreme than I am, who does?
21:13 < michaelrose> I'm not a fan of SaaS
21:14 < Sonolin> phogg *want* vs. *action* is a totally different matter
21:14 < klock> it's not illegal to manufacture guns...
21:14 < phogg> Sonolin: It's really not.
21:14 < Sonolin> yes, it is
21:14 < klock> no, it isn't
21:14 < solidfox> if I were the boss, I think I'd be a fan
21:14 < Sonolin> intention, effort -> action
21:14 < Sonolin> cause & effect
21:14 < solidfox> but I'm just a worker
21:14 < phogg> klock: in the USA it can be illegal to *sell* guns you manufacture
21:14 < klock> ah, i missed the fee part
21:14 < Sonolin> see the arrow?
21:15 < phogg> Sonolin: the government is a body made of people and laws. Which *person* wants your guns? In order for the government to want them I'd say 51% of government employees, or 51% of elected officials, would need to want them.
21:15 < phogg> Sonolin: that's in no way the case
21:15 < jim> michaelrose, solidfox, after all, canonical built their entire business on other people's work, and then dissed the hand that fed them, and then dissed their users
21:15  * Sonolin yawns
21:15 < phogg> Sonolin: or perhaps 51% of voters
21:15 < michaelrose> Canonical gives back
21:15 < solidfox> jim, dissed?
21:16 < michaelrose> they also waste time making new solutions that end up abandoned
21:16 < Sonolin> this channel is funny
21:16 < solidfox> jim, what'd they do?
21:16 < jim> did they ever file bug reports back to debian?
21:16 < rascul> phogg https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing/download
21:16 < phogg> jim: the individual developers did (and do) frequently.
21:17 < Sonolin> thanks for the DL
21:17 < rascul> phogg it's not quite what you were asking about but it might help shed some light
21:17 < solidfox> I feel like its cool to hate ubuntu/canonical sometimes
21:17 < solidfox> I don't get it, because I never heard of a concrete action they did, that the person didn't like.
21:18 < jim> solidfox, they built a gui thing (out of unity I guess) where you can search for stuff... the search results came to canonical, where they sold them to amazon without permission or even notification
21:18 < solidfox> dissed is abstract
21:18 < solidfox> jim, ok. that's fair.
21:18 < rascul> well canonical can't even make a half decent distro when someone else does most of the work for them
21:18 < Sonolin> ^^
21:18 < bls> solidfox: part of it is the amazon thing, some of it is the wayland vs mir thing, some of it is that "it's for noobs and I'm not a noob anymore so I can hate on them"
21:18 < ayecee> neither can i
21:18 < solidfox> rascul, are you joking. ubuntu is the only linux distro I've used that actually works well out of the box
21:19 < Sonolin> LOL
21:19 < rascul> solidfox you must not have used many distros
21:19 < Sonolin> ...as if
21:19 < solidfox> I've used fedora, suse, and gentoo.
21:19 < rascul> i'm not saying ubuntu doesn't work well out of the box, i'm saying there's a plethora of distros that do
21:19 < solidfox> gentoo is 2nd to ubuntu
21:19 < solidfox> fedora is 3rd
21:19 < jim> rascul, agreed... take a debian and a similar versioned ubuntu, and test how fast each runs binary executables, and how fast each installs
21:20 < solidfox> suse is garbage to me lol (just my experience with codecs)
21:20 < rascul> and without defining what well means in this context, it's hard to know for sure which distros would or would not qualify here
21:20 < triceratux> todays siduction is working great for me, but i pull it out of the box a particular way ;)
21:20 < rascul> jim also test which one gets updates quicker after the distro's release
21:20 < phogg> rascul: I am somewhat familiar with that ruling
21:20 < ayecee> bikeshed hour here on ##linux
21:20 < ayecee> up next - what color should it be?
21:20 < solidfox> ayecee, bikeshed?
21:20 < Sonolin> idk rascul I think you're giving Ubuntu too much credit
21:20 < phogg> rascul: I was not really asking, though. I was posing difficult questions for which I know there are no definite answers.
21:20 < Sonolin> I've never had a computer Ubuntu ran like it should
21:21 < ayecee> solidfox: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bikeshedding
21:21 < rascul> phogg i'm sure it'll all get worked out in courts sooner or later, or it won't
21:21 < bls> a distro is just a collection of software and a way to maintain that software. you can't really judge a distro because a piece of software it allows you to install doesn't work well
21:21 < solidfox> ayecee, ah
21:21 < phogg> rascul: Court rulings are definitely needed here. There's still too much gray.
21:21 < solidfox> Sonolin, rascul what distros do you use?
21:22 < Sonolin> gentoo, slackware, trisquel
21:22 < jim> rascul, obviously debian is going to lose that speed contest, due to how much they work on it and test it before release (all this has been said before, by the way)
21:22 < quul> phogg: that seems to cover if you copy a "material object"  since that's how "Copies" is defined here https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/101
21:22 < rascul> solidfox why does it matter?
21:22 < solidfox> Sonolin, I find gentoo easier than open suse because of the superb documentation. if you can follow directions, you can use gentoo.
21:22 < solidfox> rascul, I'm curious
21:22 < phogg> quul: You are mistaken. There is no need for it to be a material object.
21:22 < quul> not sure if binary data are material objects
21:22 < Sonolin> yea I agree solidfox
21:22 < Sonolin> similar to arch but more powerful
21:23 < rascul> jim ubuntu doesn't release updates except what they call critical until 1-2 months after a distro release iirc, and they stop pulling updates up to a month before
21:23 < quul> how am i mistaken, it says it right there in the definition
21:23 < rascul> jim based on what i recall about their release cycle and all that
21:23 < quul> "Copies" are material objects, other than phonorecords, in which a work is fixed by any method now known or later developed, and from which the work can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. The term "copies" includes the material object, other than a phonorecord, in which the work is first fixed.
21:24 < Sonolin> quul *technically* they are if you're using spinning platters
21:24 < jim> rascul, so they are adding an artificial speed limiter
21:24 < rascul> jim they probably have convinced themselves that it's for good reasons
21:25 < solidfox> I've used a lot more distros too, but not for long. just those 4 mainly
21:25 < rascul> solidfox i don't generally answer the "what distro do you use" questions while arguing about distros
21:25 < phogg> quul: Under the law digital works are treated identically to physical ones.
21:25 < solidfox> and flavors of them. like kubuntu
21:25 < quul> as material objects?
21:26 < Sonolin> no I don't think so, I'm pretty sure software is covered primarily under copyright law, right..?
21:26 < rascul> solidfox i also don't ask at those same times, because it bothers me when people are judged by what distro(s) they use
21:26 < quul> does it specifically call them material objects?
21:26 < rascul> solidfox not saying either of us would or wouldn't, but there's usually people around who would
21:27 < solidfox> rascul, someone once told me "it's none of my business what other people think about me"
21:27 < solidfox> do you know what it means?
21:27 < rascul> solidfox i will say that, in the last 2 years, i've used everything distrowatch lists as a major distro except mageia or centos
21:27 < phogg> quul: "Material" here does not mean physical: "“Copies” are material objects, other than phonorecords, in which a work is fixed by any method now known or later developed, and from which the work can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. The term “copies” includes the material object, other than a phonorecord, in which the work is first fixed." The word "fixed" here
21:27 < phogg> is the important one.
21:29 < phogg> quul: it may not be as clear in the text of the statute as it should be. The meaning is based in part by the interpretation used by courts. This is why you need to be a lawyer to really understand what the law even means.
21:29 < rascul> solidfox i generally care little about what people think of my choices, but when discussing distros, emotion often seeps in and people have been attacked on irc over distro choices (last one i saw here was as recently as yesterday)
21:29 < phogg> quul: you must also understand that words in legal documents can have meanings which are quite at odds with typical usage
21:30 < quul> so what does "material object" mean in legalese
21:30 < solidfox> rascul, you don't have to tell me.
21:30 < phogg> quul: Ask a lawyer (-;
21:30 < quul> i don't know any lawyers
21:31 < triceratux> rascul: ewww youve used pclinuxos ? even i havent done that in the last 2 years :P
21:31 < phogg> quul: try http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise5.html
21:31 < Psi-Jack> heh
21:31 < rascul> triceratux briefly
21:31 < rascul> something about it made me curious, don't remember what it was, used it for a couple weeks in a vm
21:32 < BytePaste> my console is spammed with messages like the following, any idea how to disable? [ 2281.053234] mmc_host mmc0: Bus speed (slot 0) = 300000Hz (slot req 300000Hz, actual 300000HZ div = 0)
21:32 < solidfox> rascul, how will I know what's better about your distro choice though.
21:32 < bls> solidfox: the other issue is the distro advocates that believe any distro discussion is an opportunity for them to espouse the one true distro especially to new users and it's usually something obscure and complicated to administer
21:32 < solidfox> rascul, it just seems like you may has well have never said anything
21:32 < solidfox> bls, different distros work for different people.
21:32 < phogg> quul: "As noted by the Act’s drafters, “‘copies’ and ‘phonorecords’ together comprise all of the material objects in which copyrightable works are capable of being fixed.” If it’s not a phonorecord, it’s a copy."
21:32 < rascul> solidfox i wasn't aware we were discussing the pros and cons of my distro choice
21:33 < phogg> quul: the way you know things like that is by reading case law (the quote was from the link I provided)
21:33 < rascul> pretty sure we were discussing some cons specific to ubuntu
21:33 < rascul> er, pros and cons
21:33 < solidfox> rascul, you were just criticizing ubuntu before saying you're worried I might criticize your distro choice
21:34 < phogg> BytePaste: you can tell syslog not to log to the console
21:34 < quul> phogg: i don't care about the quote give me the case so i can read the decision
21:34 < rascul> solidfox notice i was criticizing the distro, not your choice in distros
21:34 < solidfox> I think it helps to know the details. so I can understand a fellow gnu+linux user
21:34 < quul> could be rando's posting BS on the net
21:34 < phogg> quul: the linked article references it
21:34 < solidfox> rascul, concretely, what is the difference between those two things?
21:34 < phogg> quul: you *still* think I'm making this up? You will find *widespread* agreement on this topic from all legal sources.
21:35 < rascul> solidfox an example, yesterday someone was being insulted specifically because they chose to use kali, they weren't criticizing the distro itself
21:35 < solidfox> also I'm not complaining
21:35 < quul> what is the case phogg
21:35 < phogg> quul: go read the link I gave you. It cites several.
21:35 < quul> i don't think you yourself are mkaing this up
21:36 < phogg> quul: If you think this is *crazy* you are correct, but it's also the law and has been so for a long time. There's little hope of making it better.
21:36 < phogg> quul: if you really want to dispute this hire a lawyer to research it for you. It probably would only cost a few hundred to get a wealth of information demonstrating the point.
21:37 < rascul> solidfox i didn't think you were complaining, i thought you were making inquiries to understand my position
21:38 < phogg> quul: if you live in the USA and can vote I recommend you all your representative or senator and complain, then ask that the law be changed. Maybe if enough people do it something will be done.
21:38 < solidfox> rascul, ok. so they were probably saying he shouldn't use kali for some reason.
21:38 < quul> phogg: what cases should i read about?
21:38 < phogg> s/all/call/
21:38 < solidfox> rascul, like he will never be a l33t hacker.
21:38 < solidfox> rascul, that is more like harrassment.
21:39 < quul> phogg: example of one case ?
21:39 < bls> and as was mentioned a while back, most of us were exposed to all the ugly details of this when it was being established via discussions on slashdot, groklaw, EFF posts, etc, etc
21:39 < rascul> solidfox i think the ops were made aware of it, their opinion on what was taking place might differ from mine
21:41 < bjsnider> i thought if i added an acl for rwx permissions on a dir, that i'd be able to create new files and dirs in that dir, but i guess not
21:41 < phogg> quul: I don't know of one, you'll have to research it, consult a lawyer or at least see the footnotes on the article that I linked.
21:42 < phogg> bls: yeah; it's surprising how much copyright law you learn just by reading slashdot and going "wtf, really?"
21:42 < rascul> until you read the comments and you lose enough brain cells to forget what you learned about copyright law
21:42 < phogg> probably not any more, I guess
21:42 < quul> i don't see any foot notes on this page
21:42 < phogg> rascul: the whole thing is a sadness engine, generating sadness at different rates
21:43 < phogg> quul: e.g. {FN19: H.R. Rep. No. 94-1476 at 53}
21:43 < phogg> quul: for the actual notes you might need the printed version
21:43 < quul> phogg: it's copyrighted so if i print it i'm making  a material copy!
21:43 < rascul> https://www.copyright.gov/history/law/clrev_94-1476.pdf
21:44 < rypervenche> bjsnider: You can, but you need to look at the dirs above it. run this on the dir: namei -om /path/to/dir
21:44 < rascul> i think that's the referenced thing
21:44 < bls> plenty of cases referenced under the WP articles on DMCA, RIAA, MPAA, CTIA, ASCAP
21:44 < phogg> quul: ah, here we go http://digital-law-online.info/cases/index.html
21:45 < phogg> quul: the printed version is a published document with the same text, not just what you get if you hit print. But also yes.
21:46 < bjsnider> rypervenche: and then?
21:47 < rypervenche> bjsnider: And then see where the permissions are not correctly set. Do you mind showing us the output in a pastebin?
21:47 < phogg> rascul: yes, that appears top be it. quul see rascul's link
21:50 < rascul> bjsnider the user needs at least +x on parent directories
21:51 < subPunk> šibenik i okolica?
21:51 < hits1911> When I ssh to a box and read man page of a command which is several thousands lines long, Do all the lines get carried over ssh at once or only the lines that fits my screen?
21:51 < phogg> subPunk: English?
21:51 < bls> hits1911: just what's on screen
21:51 < subPunk> yes! sorry!
21:52 < _KaszpiR_> hits1911 just what's on screen
21:53 < rascul> hits1911 depends on the pager
21:53 < mad_hatter> can someone tell me how to get a local copy of a master branch up to date with the remote?
21:54 < rascul> most of the time man pages are viewed with less which will only display one page at a time
21:54 < subPunk> sorry, missed
21:54 < bls> mad_hatter: context?
21:54 < rascul> but if you set PAGER=cat for example then you'll get thousands of lines at once
21:55 < mad_hatter> bls: i have a git repo cloned locally and i checked out a new branch based off that and then switched back to master. i still see the changes i made in the master branch from the other branch
21:55 < bls> mad_hatter: i.e. is this a file tree? a database? a source code repository? if so, what tool?
21:55 < mad_hatter> and im trying to make my local copy of master mirror the remote one
21:55 < bjsnider> the user needs an acl of at least x on all parent directories?
21:55 < bls> mad_hatter: do you need to save any of your work?
21:55 < bjsnider> that did not change anything
21:55 < mad_hatter> bls: no
21:55 < hits1911> when my connection fails I can no longer read other pages that's why I wonder this. I should try PAGER=cat as well
21:55 < hits1911> thanks for the answers.
21:56 < bls> mad_hatter: then to blow it all away you can checkout master, fetch, then reset --hard HEAD
21:56 < rascul> hits1911 run screen or tmux on the remote, then if your connection fails you can ssh in and reattach and you're right back where you left off
21:56 < mad_hatter> so checkout master, then run git fetch, and then git reset --hard HEAD
21:56 < phogg> hits1911: at that point you would be better off making a local copy e.g. with scp
21:56 < phogg> mad_hatter: yes
21:57 < mad_hatter> I still see the untracked file in git status :/
21:58 < phogg> mad_hatter: untracked files are untracked, so reset will not touch them
21:58 < bls> untracked? then just delete them
21:58 < jim> mad_hatter, lots of folks here use git and know many of the "tricks" and such... and, there is also the #git channel
21:58 < bls> git isn't going to touch anything it hasn't been explicitly told to
21:58 < phogg> mad_hatter: you need 'git clean' for getting rid of untracked files
21:59 < phogg> mad_hatter: I strongly suggest reading the docs before trying it, though... unless you really don't care what gets deleted
22:00 < sstory> Given ls /foo returns some files that have a name like bkp.2018-01-NN.gz where NN is are two digits, why would ls /foo show files, but ls /foo/bkp.2018*.gz say "cannot access .... : No such file or directory" ?
22:01 < rascul> sstory i'm unable to reproduce that here
22:01 < rascul> sstory are you certain you didn't typo something?
22:02 < quul> i think you're right after reading more about this, but it makes no sense how things like DVR's can be legal, do every copyright owner have to transfer duplications rights to each individual cable company?
22:02 < quul> phogg: ^
22:03 < bls> there are posts about the entertainment industry wanting to ban DVRs unless you can force people to only watch things on them a limited number of times and not skip commercials
22:03 < bls> not sure if there's any case law on it though
22:04 < phogg> quul: DVR has a specific exemption, I believe
22:04 < rascul> quul wikipedia seems to mention a couple related cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_video_recorder#Patent_and_copyright_litigation
22:05 < phogg> ah, it could also be case law that made it allowed
22:06 < TheNH813> Allright, can someone help me diagnose the Evolution mail client?
22:06 < phogg> quul: Try plugging an HDMI cable into your computer from your cable box. It will refuse to transmit the video. Why? Because it would allow a lossless recording. They're not as crazy about it any more, but for a while they were trying at every turn to make it technically or legally impossible to do things we used to do with VHS and analog signals.
22:07 < TheNH813> My emails just stopped appearing and it returns a error.
22:07 < phogg> quul: transmit video *to* the computer,. that is
22:07 < TheNH813> The reported error was “Failed to authenticate: The name :1.47 was not provided by any .service files”.
22:07 < FreeFull> Yeah, DRM is crazy
22:07 < quul> phogg: doesn't matter, they are still copying the work
22:07 < quul> to an internal drive
22:07 < phogg> quul: like I said, there's some special circumstance with DVRs (either an exemption or a court ruling)
22:07 < rascul> quul this one might be relevant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Broadcasting_Co._v._Dish_Network,_LLC
22:08 < phogg> TheNH813: it's probably making some dbus call and not getting any response back. The name seems a bit odd, though.
22:08 < phogg> TheNH813: did you change something? Anything at all?
22:08 < TheNH813> My only guess is a update nuked something maybe?
22:08 < phogg> TheNH813: Could easily be. What distro?
22:08 < TheNH813> Arch.
22:09 < phogg> yeah that explains everything
22:09 < TheNH813> I hadn't used the desktop mail client on my gmail account for a while. My outlook account still works.
22:09 < phogg> TheNH813: arch is not big on testing things ahead of time
22:09 < bls> TheNH813: have you checked the news? Arch may have pushed out a bad update
22:09 < phogg> TheNH813: but now *you* get to be part of the process!
22:09 < TheNH813> I shall check.
22:09 < rascul> it's not really practical to test everything thoroughly ahead of time on a rolling release
22:10 < bls> I know, something might release a new version while you're in the middle of testing. you'd never keep stuff on the leading edge
22:10 < TheNH813> Could also have to do with OpenID/OAuth authentication. Because I granted Evolution access to my mail the same way any other app requests google account permission.
22:11 < TheNH813> Maybe something messed up, like a invalid session token/cookie.
22:11 < rascul> TheNH813 can you login on gmail.com with no issue?
22:11 < TheNH813> Yes.
22:12 < quul> out of court agreements are not very interesting, still leaves unanswered questions
22:12 < TheNH813> I did have to use a backup code though yesterday. Since I lost access to my email I couldn't get the 2fa code from Google voice.
22:13 < rascul> quul this specific section you might find interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Broadcasting_Co._v._Dish_Network,_LLC#Copyright_infringement_3
22:13 < TheNH813> I know everyone that uses arch always says "don't do it" but I almost want to put updates on a cron job.
22:13 < TheNH813> Because when I remember to update, I have like a full GB tod ownload.
22:14 < bls> quul: which is exactly why the intrustry likes to use legal threats but not actually take things to trial
22:14 < rascul> TheNH813 you could make a cron job to notify you ever so often to help you remember
22:14 < TheNH813> That's definitely a better idea.
22:14 < TheNH813> With notify-send or something.
22:14 < rascul> suere
22:15 < bls> the takedown notice being the current favored tool
22:15 < TheNH813> Total Download Size: 843.94 MiB | Total Installed Size: 3631.22 MiB | Net Upgrade Size: 145.63 MiB
22:15 < TheNH813> Well, this will take a while.
22:15 < rascul> TheNH813 btw, thanks for reminding me to update ;)
22:15 < TheNH813> No problem lol. :D
22:16 < TheNH813> Everything from the kernel to xorg to kde is updating. I missed just a few. Maybe it will fix my email problem. I did recently install something, which could mean I have half upgraded libraries.
22:17 < sstory> rascul: my bad. It has to do with sudo and the way things expand. Thanks for your time.
22:17 < rascul> sstory ahh yeah, the * will expand before sudo runs
22:17 < bls> why'd you leave the sudo out?
22:17 < rascul> had you mentioned sudo, we probably would have spotted your issue right away
22:18 < rascul> or i would like to think so anyway
22:18 < xebra> hi, in my /etc/network/interfaces I only have two lines, both about the "lo" interface. So where and how is my current ethernet interface configured?
22:18 < bls> I had a suspicion, but didn't for fear of appearing elitist :P
22:18 < ayecee> xebra: probably via network-manager
22:18 < ayecee> which manages any interfaces not listed in /etc/network/interfaces
22:18 < TheNH813> What distro?
22:19 < TheNH813> Try ifconfig to see if it's listed there.
22:19 < ayecee> o_O
22:19 < rascul> are there distros yet that don't ship with ifconfig?
22:19 < TheNH813> Arch.
22:19 < TheNH813> XD
22:19 < ayecee> rascul: ubuntu 18.04
22:20 < rascul> so there are, good
22:20 < ayecee> you can install a package to get it, but it's not in the base install anymore
22:20 < xebra> ayecee, I see (pun intended). I'd like to have a static IP, I guess if I configure it in /etc/network/interfaces then it will be ok, hmm
22:20 < ayecee> i'm going to have to retrain my fingers :(
22:20 < TheNH813> I guess they want you to use the ip command.
22:20 < ayecee> xebra: yup
22:20 < sstory> bls: I was stupid and assumed I guess. Sorry..
22:20 < sstory> ;)
22:20 < HOMOSEXUAL> I just switched to 18.04 i didnt even know ifconfig was missing this is UNBELIEVABLE
22:20 < TheNH813> Similar in syntax to the ip command on cisco routers. A little bit at least.
22:20 < HOMOSEXUAL> WOW
22:20 < rascul> well ifconfig is supposed to be deprecated now for years
22:21 < HOMOSEXUAL> I just switched to 18.04 i didnt even know ifconfig was missing this is UNBELIEVABLE
22:21 < HOMOSEXUAL> WOW
22:21 < ayecee> uh
22:21 < rascul> systemd replaced sysvinit way faster than ip replaced ifconfig
22:21 < bjsnider> so, acl modifies the workflow for creating a file, like this: log in as yourself, can't create files, log out, log in as the owner, create file, log out, log in as yourself, modify that file
22:21 < TheNH813> SystemD is interesting.
22:21 < TheNH813> Still figuring it out though.
22:21 < sstory> TheNH813: That isn't the word I'd use for it. ;)
22:21 < TheNH813> I made a script to translate to the familiar 'service' command syntax.
22:22 < bjsnider> it only seems to be really useful if the whole filesystem never has anything new created
22:22 < xebra> I might just as well configure the static IP with network manager (I see it seems available as a setting from the GUI)
22:22 < sstory> Every command so far seems to be a lot more verbose and I can never remember them.
22:22 < rmelero> if I'm hosting a file over http, and for example I want to host http://myexample.com/latest-package.tar.gz and I update the soft link to the file to the latest, should I somehow handle current existing connections? does it keep downloading from the previously linked file?
22:23 < TheNH813> xebra: Try 'ip link' to show available interfaces if you want to check.
22:23 < rascul> rmelero that's an interesting question, but i don't have an answer
22:23 < rascul> rmelero you might try ##networking or the channel for that specific web server if you don't get anything here
22:23 < rmelero> I need to test it I guess. i'm using nginx
22:24 < TheNH813> What's the difference between channels named with '##' and '#'? Just curious.
22:24 < rascul> TheNH813 # is official
22:24 < TheNH813> Ah, that makes sense then.
22:24 < rascul> the linux foundation or whoever has not deemed this to be the official linux channel, so it's ##linux
22:24 < rascul> canonical has deemed #ubuntu to be official, though
22:26 < rascul> ##linux does have permission to use the linux trademark though https://freenode.linux.community/linux-sub-license/
22:26 < xebra> but since there's not #linux chan, this is the de-facto official one on freenode
22:26 < Aziroshin> Good day. :) - Does anyone know how to use lollypop outside of gnome? Everything mentions calling it from some launcher, but there doesn't seem to be some sort of command to run.
22:26 < rmelero> what are you talking about? it's whoever WE make it official
22:26 < rmelero> we're the bosses round here
22:27 < rascul> rmelero you don't appear to be on the boss list for this channel
22:27 < jim> rmelero, and, linus torvalds owns the trademark "linux"
22:27 < rmelero> I'm not, but "we" are hehe as in the open source community
22:27 < rascul> jim is an open source community ;)
22:28 < jim> I am?!
22:28 < rascul> you are now!
22:28 < rmelero> possibly even a village
22:28 < autopsy> Hah.
22:28 < TheNH813> Aaaand still updating. 361MB of 837MB.
22:28 < ayecee> census area
22:29 < dfgdfsdfg> can someone pls work on magic trackpad 2 drivers pls
22:29 < dfgdfsdfg> its been 2 years
22:29 < TheNH813> Macbook?
22:29 < dfgdfsdfg> for linux (its the external touchpad thing)
22:29 < rascul> whoa php is in my updates, why the hell do i have that installed?!
22:30 < TheNH813> rascul: So your pc has nice injection vulnerabilities.
22:30 < TheNH813> lol
22:30 < rascul> not for long!
22:31 < rascul> problem solved
22:31 < dfgdfsdfg> im going back to mac os
22:31 < kurahaupo_> dfgdfsdfg: thanks for volunteering!
22:31 < dfgdfsdfg> no im done trying to port for linux
22:31 < TheNH813> dfgdfsdfg: Well, use what works best for you.
22:31 < dfgdfsdfg> am i the only one lol
22:31 < TheNH813> That touchpad looks like a nice replacement for a mouse to be honest.
22:31 < esselfe> My Lunar is back online running fluxbox :) I wanted everyone to know ;P
22:31 < TheNH813> Years ago I was looking for something like that.
22:32 < esselfe> I still have that hanging Xorg when running without just startx
22:32 < esselfe> it's a mystery
22:32 < bls> most of us have learned to pick hardware from vendors that support OSS with either drivers or at least specs and avoid it from those that don't
22:32 < jim> dfgdfsdfg, you start... make an empty repo on github and start working on it
22:32 < greenit> hi, i have installed cheese and realized that my notebook has an infrared-camera, but it's flickering heavily in cheese, can i fix this somehow?
22:33 < dfgdfsdfg> mouse is unnecessary, but nobody would mind gestures and smooth scrolling for large pdfs
22:33 < esselfe> I changed laptop so I don't have nVidia but intel 845GM
22:33 < dfgdfsdfg> with a bigass touchpad
22:33 < TheNH813> greenit: Change which camera is being used? If there's a iR camera, it's likely seperate/
22:33 < esselfe> and with an intel wireless card so my kernel isn't tainted anymore!
22:33 < dfgdfsdfg> it's very sensitive too
22:34 < TheNH813> greenit: Can't be certain though.
22:34 < greenit> TheNH813, in cheese there are two cameras, but it's the same camera, with and without ir
22:34 < esselfe> the most surpising is that I have 60fps on a simple openGL app
22:35 < rascul> esselfe why is that surprising?
22:35 < TheNH813> esselfe: Turn vsync off?
22:35 < esselfe> flightgear doesn't make it without lag with a CPU 1.66GHz but I ordered a T7600 @2.33GHz (for this latitude laptop)
22:35 < TheNH813> greenit: Then the one without iR is the right one to select then. Unless you wanted to use the iR one. Then maybe turn off automatic brightness adjustment.
22:36 < esselfe> TheNH813: I don't know, erverything works but Xorg
22:36 < TheNH813> Hmmm... which version of Xorg?
22:36 < rascul> what isn't working about Xorg?
22:36 < greenit> TheNH813, yeah, i wanted to use the iR one. ;)  how do i disable automatic brightness adjustment?
22:37 < esselfe> X11R7.4 / Xorg 1.19.6
22:37 < TheNH813> greenit: Let me install cheese and plug a webcam in. I forget.
22:37 < esselfe> I hope it's not just an xath thing :P
22:37 < esselfe> *xauth
22:38 < jim> dfgdfsdfg, do you code in C?
22:38 < esselfe> C is what you need for a nice morning ^^
22:39 < esselfe> ok, I give up to this half-working Xorg later
22:39 < esselfe> ciao, gtg
22:40 < TheNH813> greenit: I guess maybe it dosen't have it. I thought it was in preferences > image, but I don't see anything. Maybe the brightness and contrast sliders will help.
22:43 < greenit> TheNh813, sadly not, but thanks for try to help :)
22:47 < quul> phogg, rascul: i found the loop-hole, was from a supreme court betamax decision in the 70's "sony corp vs universal studios" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_shifting  guess it only applies to certain types of transmissions  bah!  i guess i was confused that you can back up video games (computer programs) but not always able to back up other types of media, supposedly, or so i'll assume until someone
22:47 < quul> wins/loses in court
22:53 < noway96> I may have accidentally deleted the first 512 bytes of my hard drive
22:53 < noway96> how do I recover that stuff?
22:53 < xamithan> testdisk might be able to find it
22:53 < noway96> or at least fix it so that I don't have to reinstall everything with a clean slate
22:55 < Sitri> noway96: GPT or MBR?
22:57 < Psi-Jack> Sitri: that just made me think. I should add a pre-backup command to my salted borgbackup stuff to snapshot my gpt partitions.
22:58 < Sitri> If MBR, you could just try and rebuild the partition table with fdisk or whatever and then reinstall the bootloader
22:59 < Psi-Jack> Ugh rebuilding msdos partitions is a PITA.
23:01 < Sitri> I have a standard layout for partitions, so for me that's fairly trivial.  I realize that's not the case for everyone, but if you have a single partition, then it's not much of an issue either.
23:02 < Sitri> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/43922/how-to-read-the-in-memory-kernel-partition-table-of-dev-sda <-- however, there's als othat :p
23:03 < TheWild> hello
23:03 < quul> sup willy
23:04 < Psi-Jack> Hmmm, in-memory might be useful.
23:04 < kope> what xss name that steal cookie session ?
23:05 < TheWild> RAM in this netbook has a hole at 0x89BF0DD0, but memmap=64K$0x89BF0000 seems to fix it entirely - memtester doesn't complain anymore. Yay! Previously I had to be happy with mem=2G. What was the command to display the memory mapping
23:06 < TheWild> nvm. It's not a command, it's /proc/iomem
23:08 < Psi-Jack> TheWild: "nevermind" not "nvm"
23:08 < TheWild> k
23:09 < TheWild> okay, okay, I'll be nice Psi-Jack
23:09 < fendur> why the pedantry?
23:10 < TheWild> "nvm" could be possibly a command ;)
23:10 < bookworm> topic... (not that I agree)
23:10 < jim> fendur, well we want to promote as much understanding as possible
23:11 < ayecee> pedantry is its own reward
23:11 < dbolser> hihi
23:11 < jim> hi
23:11 < fendur> jim: Should you use better grammar? i.e., punctuation and proper capitalization? Or is that too far?
23:11 < Psi-Jack> "nvm" actually does exist in Linux, per node.js stuff.
23:12 < MrChinasky> Greetings Linuxers! I'm facing a problem about passwordless SSH RSA keyauth. When ssh with -vvv, host checks for everything but RSA key, even if sshd_config mention RSA key as a valid way to auth : https://imgur.com/a/7lMZUBz. Am I missing something?
23:12 < dbolser> I'm trying to boot this windows box into a live linux, but it refuses to boot from usb. I've followed the instructions here https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2170811
23:12 < ayecee> too far
23:12 < TheWild> Psi-Jack: yeah, I knew I have seen it somewhere but couldn't remember.
23:12 < dbolser> Graar now eh?
23:12 < jim> do what you can to make what you say understandable... you might get reminders and tips
23:12 < dbolser> Gramar!
23:12 < Psi-Jack> Node Version Manager,nvm.
23:13 < fendur> Also context, but OK.
23:13 < dbolser> I'm using Rufus under windows to build the stick as a test... I'm wondering if I should change the format of the bootable
23:13 < Psi-Jack> fendur: Side note, sure. It helps to show some level of intelligence, afterall. :)
23:13 < dbolser> There are 3 options for partition scheme
23:13 < fendur> Psi-Jack: efficiency _can_ indicate intelligence.
23:14 < Psi-Jack> Not.... Really.
23:14 < fendur> No?!
23:14 < fendur> That's an interesting claim.
23:14 < faceface> I try to show stupidity
23:14 < xamithan> What is the third scheme
23:15 < faceface> Show your noobs
23:15 < Psi-Jack> msdos, uefi, bsd "slices"?
23:15 < Psi-Jack> Err,  not uefi, gpt.
23:15 < rascul> heh bsd slices had me all confused the first time
23:15 < faceface> Sorry Psi-Jack, the tool is just writing a disk... I'll tell you the options in a mo
23:16 < Psi-Jack> A month? Why so long?
23:16 < faceface> Wait... were you talking to me?
23:16 < Sitri> MrChinasky: Did you copy /home/mnemosyn/.ssh/id_rsa.pub into the server's authorized_keys file for the user you're trying to connect as?
23:16 < faceface> I'll tell you the options in two shakes of a lambs tail.
23:16 < djph> Psi-Jack: I think he misspelt 'moment'
23:16 < djph> ... why're you even that close to a lamb!?  you deviant.
23:16 < Psi-Jack> Ohhhhh... I translated "mo" to be what it normally means, in increments of time, which is a month. :)
23:17 < bookworm> better question, is he root? Because if the runs ssh via the normal user account stuff in /etc is probably not readable
23:17 < fendur> Because you're a robot?
23:17 < faceface> Psi-Jack: google is smarter than you
23:17 < tds> MrChinasky: also, if ssh isn't attempting to use the local id_rsa key, it may be worth checking permissions
23:17 < faceface> ;-)
23:17 < rascul> mo isn't marching order?
23:17 < rascul> weird
23:17 < Psi-Jack> rascul: Mission Orders, too.
23:17 < rascul> oh yeah, i'm a civilian now
23:17 < xamithan> memory occurance
23:17 < Psi-Jack> heh
23:17 < xamithan> Like a brain fart
23:17 < djph> bookworm: nah, real quick check - files in /etc are 644
23:18 < bookworm> djph: ssh keys?
23:18 < rascul> xamithan sure you don't mean a brain sneeze?
23:18 < bookworm> hopefully not
23:18 < djph> bookworm: why would ssh keys be in ... OHH, you're talking about the host keys? sec
23:18 < xamithan> No,  a brain sneeze is a headache.  Once the brain cold ends so does the headache
23:18 < rascul> xamithan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl3l3siXDjQ
23:19 < faceface> We have MBR partition scheme for BIOS or UEFI / MBR partition scheme for UEFI / GPT partition scheme for UEFI
23:19 < djph> bookworm: privates are 600 / publics are 644
23:19 < djph> bookworm: if we're talking about the host keys in /etc/ssh
23:19 < bookworm> djph: for auth you need the private key...
23:19 < djph> bookworm: for auth, you'd be using your private key in $HOME/.ssh most times.
23:19 < faceface> well... geniously, my other computer is at work... so I'm going to have to reboot to test this
23:19 < faceface> bie bie
23:20 < jim> Psi-Jack, maybe it's better you slow down for awhile
23:20 < djph> (unless the ssh session isn't being run by you, then it'd be elsewhere)
23:20 < bookworm> djph: yep, alas the original question uses the stuff in /etc
23:20 < Psi-Jack> Haven't I already? :p
23:20 < djph> bookworm: err, those are just the host identifier keys ....
23:20 < jim> for now yeah, and the channel is cooling
23:20 < djph> well, *normally* they're just the host identifier
23:20 < djph> *identifiers
23:22 < jim> what I mean is, don't be so quick to point out language policy violations at least for the next few days
23:24 < MrChinasky> Sitri: Thanks for your help kind stranger. I'm gonna check!
23:25 < ayecee> "there's a nice way to do that"
23:25 < Sitri> There's a utility called ssh-copy-id that will do that for you
23:25 < azx> i have linux installed. how do i make a new empty partition to dual boot
23:25 < azx> ?
23:25 < jim> fendur. faceface, you guys do your part too... check the channel web page for the channel rules and please don't make violations at least over the next few days
23:25 < MrChinasky> tds: on it =)
23:26 < Sitri> Otherwise you have to do: ssh NORMALHOSTSTRING cat '>>' .ssh/authorized_keys < ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub
23:26 < jim> azx, which partition is it? what kind of partition table does the drive it's on have?
23:27 < Psi-Jack> faceface is already /quit. heh
23:28 < jim> then it'll be harder for him to cause problems here :)
23:29 < azx> it's an nvme drive which is confusing me a bit
23:29 < azx> it has three different partitions in /dev/
23:29 < azx> different files
23:29 < azx> device files
23:29 < azx> the 2nd one is the one that has the space i wish to utilize
23:30 < candidat> just a quick survey type a if you are a genius
23:30 < azx> so i opened it in fdisk and it doesn't show any partitions
23:30 < candidat> :)
23:30 < azx> i have experience working with sd*
23:30 < autopsy> azx, maybe use blkid
23:30 < Psi-Jack> jim: It's funny. I actually hadn't been for the past 1~2 weeks as it has been. Then I do so a couple times in a day, and, well, here we are. And I don't even do it because it's channel policy. I do it because I personally despise what I've coined ~20 years ago as shtspk. :p
23:31 < candidat> is it a lot of work to be the backup sys admin ?
23:31 < autopsy> Psi-Jack, thats a long time man.
23:31 < bookworm> 20 years ago this didn't exist...
23:31 < bookworm> Well. Unless. Telegram. End
23:31 < fendur> huh?
23:32 < autopsy> IRC was around in 1995.
23:32 < fendur> before 1995.
23:32 < autopsy> Yeah.
23:32 < Psi-Jack> Since SMS came out in 1992, yes it has.
23:32 < Psi-Jack> Ironically, IRC came out around that time too. heh
23:32 < azx> it's gpt
23:32 < bookworm> True '-.- god I am growing old
23:32 < Psi-Jack> :)
23:32 < ayecee> it was the best of times, it was the worst of times
23:32 < Psi-Jack> bookworm: We all are.
23:33 < autopsy> 1995 was when I installed Slackware 1.2.1
23:33  * bookworm shudders
23:33 < bookworm> slackware... manual dependency management... what a disgrace
23:33 < bookworm> let computer do computer stuff
23:34 < rascul> you don't need to do manual deps anymore
23:34 < bookworm> I'll handle the fun parts
23:34 < bookworm> By default? Some script some guy wrote doesn't count :P
23:34 < rascul> yes by default, i think it was the 14 release
23:35 < rascul> they started shipping a new tool iirc which handled all that for you
23:35 < Psi-Jack> Course, back in 1993~200x or so, SMS was indeed a royal PITA to use, because of tapping numbers repeatedly to rotate through the letters that number produced, waiting a moment for it to acknowledge it, then you could start the next character.
23:36 < Loshki> bookworm: I suppose that means it'll be a while before slackware gets systemd, then?
23:37 < mawk> when I edit a DNS zone file with emacs it automatically increments the SOA counter
23:37 < mawk> it's magical
23:37 < mawk> I didn't even asked for this
23:37 < bookworm> I like systemd, ymmv
23:37 < twainwek> Psi-Jack: bro, you could press the arrow keys for it to register your current letter
23:37 < Psi-Jack> Not until later.
23:37 < majuk> Hey frands. Seems like there should be a guide on this but my Google-fu has failed me. I've been working on a custom hardware project for which I have developed some very light changes to a kernel module. I'd like to publish these changes to be in compliance with the GPL, but I'm not sure the best way to go about this.
23:37 < rascul> bookworm "slackpkg was included in the main tree in Slackware 12.2 - previously it had been included in extras/ since Slackware 9.1"
23:37 < rascul> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slackpkg
23:37 < twainwek> From almost the very beginning
23:38 < majuk> Any questions or comments appreciated.
23:38 < twainwek> but most people simply didn't know
23:38 < rascul> bookworm damnit i'm thinking of the wrong thing, it's not slackpkg
23:38 < bookworm> majuk: github? doesn't really matter as long as you provide it somewhere
23:39 < jim> Psi-Jack, pretty often, the channel tends to react in unfortunate ways when you bring that stuff up
23:39 < Psi-Jack> Is that /MY/ fault? No.
23:39 < bookworm> Slackpkg does not resolve dependencies between packages, like rpm from Fedora and openSUSE. Only third-party applications, such as slapt-get, have an automated package relation management.
23:39 < bookworm> rascul: ^
23:40 < rascul> yeah i just said i was wrong about that
23:40 < bookworm> why on earth would you write a pkg manager that doesn't do pkg manager stuff
23:40 < rascul> rpm doesn't
23:40 < rascul> oh wait, it does
23:40 < rascul> i'm mixing myself up again
23:40 < majuk> bookworm: Well, ok, I get a little overwhelmed trying to grapple with forking the repo and getting on the right tag and yadda yadda
23:40 < rascul> i'll go away now
23:40 < jim> I'm pretty sure it's how you express it
23:40 < Sitri> dpkg doesn't do dependency resolution does it?
23:40 < Psi-Jack> rpm does packages. yum does repositories.
23:41 < bla> majuk: you need to publish it when asked, or when distributing the code to the client. But if the changes are nice - publish it on a github described and it's ok.
23:41 < ||JD||> majuk: I think you are not forced to publish the modified sources unless you distribute the binaries
23:41 < Psi-Jack> jim: And I'm pretty sure it's not. I've monitored various different methods and reactions, and still the same pattern occurs no matter whom does it in what ways.
23:41 < jim> Sitri, dpkg knows when deps aren't satisfied, but doesn't do downloading or resolving deps itself
23:42 < Psi-Jack> Just saying what's been observed. :)
23:42 < bookworm> dpkg is also not really meant to be used directly no?
23:42 < bookworm> does Debian use apt?
23:42 < djph> Sitri: dpkg isn't really the "package manager" though (APT is)
23:42  * bookworm has his answer
23:42 < jim> well it's meant to operate on .deb files
23:42 < Sitri> Yeah, my point is slackpkg is probably meant to be equivolent to dpkg
23:42 < Psi-Jack> djph: dpkg is a package manager, apt is a repository manager.
23:42 < Psi-Jack> You're backwards. :)
23:43 < bookworm> still, they don't provide the top level stuff == bad
23:43 < Sitri> But I don't do debian, so I wasn't sure
23:43 < jim> bookworm, it does, yes
23:43  * djph mutters 'show you backwards' :P
23:43 < jim> bookworm, apt was invented in and for debian
23:44 < Psi-Jack> djph: You're inside out! :)
23:44 < djph> Psi-Jack: have any further reading material by any chance?
23:44 < bookworm> yeah, I used Ubuntu so wasn't quite sure if they were upstream or Debian
23:44 < Psi-Jack> djph: For?
23:44 < djph> Debian is 'upstream' ...
23:44 < djph> Psi-Jack: apt/dpkg ?
23:44 < noway96> how do you supply input to a command that expects input? I'm trying to ssh and do things via shell script, so totally automated. I want to feed in the password of the remote. How? No, I cannot use certificates for authorization.
23:44 < Psi-Jack> djph: For?
23:44 < bookworm> djph: not for tools build by Ubuntu ;)
23:44 < bookworm> not saying that apt is, but upstream is relatvie
23:44 < bookworm> relative*
23:44 < djph> ... actually I should probably just go back to bed,  medecine's making me loopy :(
23:46 < jim> bookworm, debian is the original... ubuntu, kali, knoppix, lubuntu, kbuntu, etc etc, are all based on debian
23:46 < bookworm> jim: I know
23:46 < bookworm> Shall we now mention all other family trees or can we stop here?
23:46 < Loshki> noway96: it's deliberately difficult, because you end up embedding passwords in scripts, always a weakness. But look for the language "expect" and its corresponding implementations in things like perl and python,
23:47 < Psi-Jack> bookworm: Are you trying to get help for something?
23:47 < autopsy> noway96, try using expect see if you have  expect in your package manager.
23:47 < bookworm> no
23:47 < jim> bookworm, you had mentioned you weren't sure which of ubuntu and debian was the further upstream
23:47 < autopsy> noway96, i've used expect it's really easy.
23:47 < bookworm> no, I said I wasn't quite sure whether Ubuntu or Debian devs developed apt
23:48 < bookworm> as I only used Ubuntu and so wasn't quite sure
23:48 < autopsy> apt schmapt.
23:48 < jim> oh, that would be debian
23:48 < bookworm> so you told me repeatedly
23:48 < Psi-Jack> heh, the only thing lacking in Debian is a decent repository manager with sane functionality. :)
23:48 < bookworm> I believed it the first time jim ;)
23:49 < Psi-Jack> apt search for example, when you pass it through grep to filter the results down... Complains that it shouldn't be interpretted by scripts.
23:49 < djph> Psi-Jack: i think that can be said for all.
23:49 < Psi-Jack> djph: No.
23:49 < jim> Psi-Jack, that's incindiary :)
23:49 < MrChinasky> Sitri, tds, problem fixed, thanks!
23:49 < bookworm> to be fair, apt is the top level thingy, you can still use apt-get et al
23:49 < djph> Psi-Jack: rpm was pretty bad when i've had to use it
23:49 < Psi-Jack> yum/dnf is definitely superior, in pretty much every way, with search, with repository management, with version locking, with .. Everything, and more.
23:49 < autopsy> apt-get is cool. So is dpkg.
23:50 < djph> maybe arch's is better
23:50 < bookworm> same as with gits porcelain commands I guess, also no guarantees there
23:50 < Psi-Jack> arch's is horrible!
23:50 < djph> :D
23:50 < Psi-Jack> And I /use/ Arch. That says something. LOl
23:50 < djph> Psi-Jack: meh, I just use emacs package tool anyway
23:50 < autopsy> dnf is good with rpm.
23:50 < stevendale> I use Debian Unstable and Windows XP dual boot OwO
23:51 < autopsy> stevendale, why unstable?
23:51 < bookworm> really? windows XP and you ask why unstable?
23:51 < djph> he's a glutton for punishment
23:51 < djph> see: winxp
23:51 < stevendale> autopsy: I'm a masochist
23:51 < Psi-Jack> dnf search "string", find a package. dnf provides '*/bin/ls', find out what packages provides */bin/ls somewhere in its files. dnf history -- Show what you've recently installed/removed/etc, and even UNDO it.
23:52 < bookworm> any package manager can do all those commands
23:52 < Psi-Jack> apt-cache search "string", apt-file "string", /var/log/apt/
23:52 < bookworm> well, the undo part with human help via the logs :P
23:52 < Psi-Jack> bookworm: /can/ and /do/ are totally different.
23:53 < stevendale> But
23:53 < bookworm> pacman does, so you can't complain ;)
23:53 < stevendale> Bookworms!
23:53 < stevendale> Where'd my books go!
23:53 < Psi-Jack> What's worse is, apt-file? Not even part of dpkg/apt, but seperately installed.
23:53 < Psi-Jack> And maintains a separate database that has to be updated/synced
23:53  * bookworm sorts his new books into the library
23:53 < rascul> i hate the apt suite
23:53 < rascul> i can never remember which of the damn apt tools i'm supposed to use for what
23:53 < Psi-Jack> heh
23:54 < Psi-Jack> rascul: I never have a problem. But 'aptitude' was horrible.
23:54 < rascul> it's better now that a lot of stuff has been put into the apt tool though
23:54 < Psi-Jack> And they haven't made things better with 'apt' either.
23:54 < stevendale> bookworm Mostly Judo, Medieval Warfare and D&D books
23:54 < bookworm> hm, I prefer fantasy books
23:54 < rascul> just that one aspect is better, i don't remember enough about apt specifically to offer an opinion about whether it's better overall
23:54 < jim> it was thought some didn't need the functionality of apt-file, and the database it builds isn't needed for normal operation
23:55 < bookworm> but, offtopic
23:55 < jim> at worst it's linux distro specific
23:56 < stevendale> offtopic is okay ;) jim totally isn't watching :D
23:56 < Psi-Jack> jim: Sure. It's extra functionality that is often useful.
23:56 < jim> it is often useful
23:57 < Psi-Jack> And yet, not included in the standard apt suite of tools.
23:57 < jim> stevendale, offtopic is sometimes ok, and then for a couple minutes
23:57 < djph> I don't think he's capable of staying *ON*topic for more than a couple of minutes ...
23:58 < Psi-Jack> ^
23:58 < bookworm> XD
23:58 < stevendale> Good morning *Puts on thinking cap*
23:59 < bookworm> And good night o/
23:59 < djph> ... used to infect the mint-* channels on spotchat, til the ops finally wised up and permaband him
23:59 < jim> nite
23:59 < Loshki> The proliferation of apt, apt-get, aptitude was annoying, as was the update/upgrade/dist-upgrade terminology bungle
23:59 < Psi-Jack> heh
23:59 < Psi-Jack> Indeed, the upgrade vs dist-upgrade vs "full-upgrade"
--- Log closed Tue May 15 00:00:09 2018